So this happened:
My party was exploring a dungeon. We came across 2 Dark Stalkers, which I recognized OOC, but tried not utilizing this knowledge. Also for reference, all of us were level 4 at this point. One of them rushed us so I told others to deal with it while I dealt with the one behind him. I was playing a swashbuckler so I figured I could hadnle it or at least hold him until rest of the party kills the other in 2 turns max. Not to mention that's how my character would act.
This is where I feel ripped. Apparently these guys had "Gloves of quickened spell-like ability" so it could use Fog Cloud as swift action. This also meant since I was next to it so I could attack, it could do 2 sneak attacks to me right away, both for 3d6 from sneak attack only, which were both most likely to hit since I was a dex-based character fighting flat-footed in darkness and they had +7 to hit, plus I couldn't use parrying in darkness and at no point could I do anything to prevent this sudden death. I was at 17 health at the point and this did a total of 30 to me, killing me right away. Not to mention they also had some magic lenses that prevented them from becoming blind form light earlier, even if it was basically a flashbang we used on them.
Before you ask, I know Fog Cloud wouldn't give him sneak attack. When I confronted him about this alone a few days later, he said my death wouldn't be retconned because he misunderstood the spell and instead it was retconned that the Dark Stalker used Deeper Darkness (spell-like ability which they also have to be fair) so I could stay dead.
Not to mention all the magic items they had: All usable only by Darkfolk for reasons (mostly so we wouldn't get increased treasure to compensate for higher CR, they were apparently worth 100GP total).
I was later resurrected, but it cost us all our money, this death is now a permanent part of my character, and he hinted there'd be some other reprecussions for it in our next game.
So how should I get even with him? I don't want to start jackassing the campaign since my beef is with him only and I don't want to ruin it for other players, so my first plan is to fight fire with fire. I'm most likely to GM our next campaign so I'll split them up (most likely have them chasing severl targets so they have to split up or let some of them go), have one planned enemy use a mask that uses Hold Person as a swift action and then have him slit his characters throat as coup de grace. If he tried calling me out on it, I'll refer back to this event and that it's just as fair as it was here so he can't complain.
In case it fails or takes too long, are there other ways to get back at him for that? Note that it's the only players I know in this city so walking out of the group isn't an option.
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You could write a negative post about him on the Paizo forums. Oh, you already did?
You could try waiting until you get to be the GM, and then GM much better than he did. That way he'll look bad by comparison.
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Any attempt to "get even" is going to make things worse. There's no good outcome.
If you don't like the way he plays and you cant negotiate some kind of middle ground, then don't play with him.
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Murdering the GM's character in a future game sounds wonderfully healthy. Who doesn't want a GM who knows how to nurse a grudge? Seriously... if this upsets you to the point where you find yourself literally contemplating revenge, it's time to find something else to do.
Just let him get away with it? Might have to consider (seeing the lack of options) it if the mentioned future reprecussions aren't even worse than what happened so far and all players agree to never mention this again at any point, including at the start of next session. Not going take constant reminding of the time I failed even if I didn't fail in any way.
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If you can't talk it out with him and come to an agreement of what to do about it, it's obvious your play styles clash too much and it's probably time to part ways and find a different group.
Sometimes the only thing you can do is walk away.
Don't use his tricks against him. It won't turn out well, and nobody likes a GM on a vengeance kick who picks on particular characters - no more and no less than most players hate the GM who gives one player all the good stuff and never attacks them (GM's Girlfriend Syndrome, or something similar).
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You're taking this way too hard. It's a game.
Agreed with the other posters: You are spending WAY too much mental energy on this. Express your opinion out-of-game with the GM. If you think you have incompatible playing styles, then find another group. Or start your own as a GM.
I get it, I have to ignore it, how many more are going to post saying the same thing?
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You're taking this way too hard. It's a game.It's a game is the dumbest reason ever. He should get annoyed, it's his time that was wasted by a crappy GM.
In your opinion. A reminder to keep things in perspective was warranted.
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I get it, I have to ignore it, how many more are going to post saying the same thing?
Welcome to the Paizo forums. You asked for advice, you're going to get it, probably repeatedly. Especially when you do something like post a revenge plot, which you're like the fifty- or sixtieth person to do here (and that's a very shallow estimate). You're going to get a lot of people telling you what a bad idea it is.
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I get it, I have to ignore it, how many more are going to post saying the same thing?
Well, I was going to suggest talking to him about it... and then, if that doesn't work, having all of your actions represented by a dance. When using diplomacy, dance Gangnam Style. Start as many encounters as possible using diplomacy.
Now, though, I'm just going to suggest you talk to him and, if it doesn't work out, potentially seek out a different group.
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I get it, I have to ignore it, how many more are going to post saying the same thing?
You should talk it over with him and ignore it and rise above it and be the better person and.....
I get it, I have to ignore it, how many more are going to post saying the same thing?Well, I was going to suggest talking to him about it... and then, if that doesn't work, having all of your actions represented by a dance. When using diplomacy, dance Gangnam Style. Start as many encounters as possible using diplomacy.
No no, my character is trained Spanish stuff like tango and flamenco, dances that impress the ladies. I'm the dashing swashbuckler, not the bard everyone mocks for being good at nothing.
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The best revenge is running a better game when it is your chance to do so.
In that scenario everyone wins.
-MD
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I get it, I have to ignore it, how many more are going to post saying the same thing?
Don't ignore it; that'd send him the message that you're okay with what happened. But getting revenge will just create an escalating spiral of one-upsmanship that'll likely end with crashed campaigns and lost friends. (Assuming you're playing with a group of friends.)
So yeah, talk to him about it like others have suggested. And if he sticks to his guns, leave his campaign. Look for a new group, or start your own. And if this means you don't game for a while, remember: no gaming is better than bad gaming!
This is where I feel ripped. Apparently these guys had "Gloves of quickened spell-like ability" so it could use Fog Cloud as swift action. This also meant since I was next to it so I could attack, it could do 2 sneak attacks to me right away, both for 3d6 from sneak attack only, which were both most likely to hit since I was a dex-based character fighting flat-footed in darkness and they had +7 to hit, plus I couldn't use parrying in darkness and at no point could I do anything to prevent this sudden death. I was at 17 health at the point and this did a total of 30 to me, killing me right away. Not to mention they also had some magic lenses that prevented them from becoming blind form light earlier, even if it was basically a flashbang we used on them.Before you ask, I know Fog Cloud wouldn't give him sneak attack. When I confronted him about this alone a few days later, he said my death wouldn't be retconned because he misunderstood the spell and instead it was retconned that the Dark Stalker used Deeper Darkness (spell-like ability which they also have to be fair) so I could stay dead.
OK, so your problem is that you got whacked in 1 round instead of 2? The way things look, without the GM enhancements to the situation, they could have been blinded with light blindness and thrown up the deeper darkness in one round, and recovered their sight, and then taken the next round to sneak attack you into oblivion. Net effect - it basically could have taken 1 more round (maybe 2) than it took to play out. Granted, that would have been more fair, but can you be certain the result would have been different?
With that in mind, you could ask him was it absolutely necessary for the dark stalkers to have special gear? Couldn't he have achieved the same result without loading up the encounter with marginal gear?
So how should I get even with him?
I'm going to join the chorus and say "Don't". This is a game. You're supposed to have fun not be dicks to each other. That said, it sounds like you've got a problem with your GM. If he is throwing stuff at you like this, ask him why. Why the manipulation? Is he planning something with it? If so, why isn't he enlisting your help rather than pulling some encounter-stacking shenanigans? Remind him that you're there to play and have fun building a story of adventure, not to be jacked around by him.
OK, so your problem is that you got whacked in 1 round instead of 2? The way things look, without the GM enhancements to the situation, they could have been blinded with light blindness and thrown up the deeper darkness in one round, and recovered their sight, and then taken the next round to sneak attack you into oblivion. Net effect - it basically could have taken 1 more round (maybe 2) than it took to play out. Granted, that would have been more fair, but can you be certain the result would have been different?
This is where I feel ripped. Apparently these guys had "Gloves of quickened spell-like ability" so it could use Fog Cloud as swift action. This also meant since I was next to it so I could attack, it could do 2 sneak attacks to me right away, both for 3d6 from sneak attack only, which were both most likely to hit since I was a dex-based character fighting flat-footed in darkness and they had +7 to hit, plus I couldn't use parrying in darkness and at no point could I do anything to prevent this sudden death. I was at 17 health at the point and this did a total of 30 to me, killing me right away. Not to mention they also had some magic lenses that prevented them from becoming blind form light earlier, even if it was basically a flashbang we used on them.Before you ask, I know Fog Cloud wouldn't give him sneak attack. When I confronted him about this alone a few days later, he said my death wouldn't be retconned because he misunderstood the spell and instead it was retconned that the Dark Stalker used Deeper Darkness (spell-like ability which they also have to be fair) so I could stay dead.
I would remind you, in that one turn I could have done one easy thing: run. Get out of darkness and wait there until it ends or he comes at me.
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Saran wrap.
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It's a game is the dumbest reason ever. He should get annoyed, it's his time that was wasted by a crappy GM.
Agreed and seconded. I don't get the current laissez-faire permissive atittude towards Dms and players who screw over players or dms at the table. Not only was the op time wasted. Apparently the DM screwing him over is not finished. So why would the op be happy at what happened.
How will players or dm ever learn from their mistakes or bad behavior at the table when no one says anything. If no one ever said anything to me at the game table as both a player and dm I would be much worse as both.That being said I do recommend that the op just walk away. No violence or attempts at screwing over the dm and his game.
Something does need to be done, but shutting down his character is not only immature, but it won't work. That could just as easily (and possibly more likely) just make him angrier at you, and more likely to di in the future, because hey, this is how people do things, isn't it?
The only way to really show him the error of his ways is what other people suggested: be a better GM, but more specifically, create a scenario where you can show him how he SHOULD have handled that situation/built that encounter: namely, building encounters that challenge all PCs equally, with the intent to challenge, not to kill. "Gloves of quickened spell-like ability" sounds like something he made up so he could easily kill the PCs, not a flavorful magic item that makes for an interesting combat. And if that was his intent, it apparently worked.
I can't give you a decisive way HOW to do this, it's going to require a lot of thought and planning. If you succeed, your players will be happy and you can say to the group something along the liens of "Thanks, I worked really hard to try and come up with a scenario that was fun equally challenging for all of you, but didn't shut anyone down, because that's no fun."
The previous GM should be able to take the hint, and if your game was a success he'll know first hand that it is the better way to GM because he had more fun with this than you clearly had in his game.
It's a game is the dumbest reason ever. He should get annoyed, it's his time that was wasted by a crappy GM.Agreed and seconded. I don't get the current laissez-faire permissive atittude towards Dms and players who screw over players or dms at the table. Not only was the op time wasted. Apparently the DM screwing him over is not finished. So why would the op be happy at what happened.
How will players or dm ever learn from their mistakes or bad behavior at the table when no one says anything. If no one ever said anything to me at the game table as both a player and dm I would be much worse as both.That being said I do recommend that the op just walk away. No violence or attempts at screwing over the dm and his game.
Most people advocated talking it over from what I can see. Revenge plots are never a way to solve problems in life, whether its gaming or anything else. All it does is cause problems to escalate, and the GM has way way way more resources to screw over the player than ways the player can screw over the GM.
If their are irreconcilable differences between the player and GM, your only avenue is leaving the game. Honestly, If you are not having fun at a game and won't try to talk things over, it's your fault your time is wasted in future games.
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Eat lots of beans and cabbage for the 36 hours before the session. Go running and sit in a steam room, don't bathe, wear the workout clothes to the game. Smell like cigarettes, smoke a pack before the game and take a break every 20 minutes to smoke again. Constantly complain about how bad it smells in his house. Pick your teeth at the table and flick it at the DM screen. Dig in your ears and pick your nose then handle his figs/books/wife.
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It's a game is the dumbest reason ever. He should get annoyed, it's his time that was wasted by a crappy GM.Agreed and seconded. I don't get the current laissez-faire permissive atittude towards Dms and players who screw over players or dms at the table. Not only was the op time wasted. Apparently the DM screwing him over is not finished. So why would the op be happy at what happened.
How will players or dm ever learn from their mistakes or bad behavior at the table when no one says anything. If no one ever said anything to me at the game table as both a player and dm I would be much worse as both.That being said I do recommend that the op just walk away. No violence or attempts at screwing over the dm and his game.
Need I point out we only have one side of the story?
Need I point out we only have one side of the story?
And how is that any different from every other DM/Player trouble story that's been posted to these forums since they first opened?
Well when it's the DM posting about problems with a player, we of course assume that they are right about everything and that the player is whiny and entitled. But since this story is from a player, we should definitely exhibit a lot of skepticism. :P
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Need I point out we only have one side of the story?
True yet from what I can see it's one thing to do what the dm did. It's another to go "oh by way besides killing your character expect more negative stuff to come your way". And a player is just supposed to be happy about it. If the op is making stuff up than let the dm feel free to post and defend himself. Until then what the dm did to me is a dick move.
[Well when it's the DM posting about problems with a player, we of course assume that they are right about everything and that the player is whiny and entitled. But since this story is from a player, we should definitely exhibit a lot of skepticism.
LOL
Your saracasm aside I have noticed the double standard. No one ever says "maybe we should hear from the players.". It's assumed that they got what they deserved. While being whiny and entitled if they complain.
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Kinda the opposite of what I usually see here.
There have been threads where a player has complained about their GM, the forums have responded with the general "He's a horrible GM, a horrible person, and you should burn his house down. With lemons!"
Then another player from the group or the GM posts, and suddenly it turns out it's not quite as black and white as the original poster made it out to be.
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If the op is making stuff up than let the dm feel free to post and defend himself. Until then what the dm did to me is a dick move.
So in addition to putting in (at a bare minimum) 10x more prep time for every session than all of the players combined, it's also a GMs duty to scour all RPG-related forums on the web at all times in case he happens to recognize the alias of one of his players so he can defend himself in case that player gets mad that he was refused a glass of milk?
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Kinda the opposite of what I usually see here.
There have been threads where a player has complained about their GM, the forums have responded with the general "He's a horrible GM, a horrible person, and you should burn his house down. With lemons!"
Then another player from the group or the GM posts, and suddenly it turns out it's not quite as black and white as the original poster made it out to be.
That's a good point yet the OP could also have been legimately screwed over by his DM as well. So one cannot assume that the op is acting up because he is spoiled and entitled. Or that what happened in the initial post is not true. If it turns out that player was exaggerating his case than I'm mane enough to admit to being wrong. I'm also not going to outright dismiss his complaint either.
So in addition to putting in (at a bare minimum) 10x more prep time for every session than all of the players combined, it's also a GMs duty to scour all RPG-related forums on the web at all times in case he happens to recognize the alias of one of his players so he can defend himself in case that player gets mad that he was refused a glass of milk?
Please spare me the whole "pity the dm he works so hard" routine. Right now I'm both a player and DM. When one chooses to be a dm one accepts the extra workload that comes with the position. While I respect and acknowledge the work a dm does I refuse to treat them any differently. Whether it's because one has to buy more books. Prepare a adventure session or deal with players. Don't want the hassle of all that then don't be a DM. So long story short I'm not giving any dm special consideration because I ask for none in return. I dm because I like doing it. It alsdo helps keep my rules knowledge up to date. It also means sometimes having to deal with problem players and all the negativ stuff that comes with being a dm.
Not to mention with the op if it is true it's more than just being refused a glass of milk. The dm not only kills of his character. He also gives the player a heads up that it's going to get worse for him at the gmaing table. And the op is suppose to be happy with that. I don't think any player in his right mind would be happy with that kind of treatment.
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PC Death is handled differently at different tables. I know that, the way it's run in my neck of the woods, you can just bring in a new character when your's dies, which means it's sad but at least it's not going to hold you back forever. If the players are really attached to a character, they can find a macguffen or cleric or something to bring him back and then it will become a plot element because they WANTED it to.
Unfairly singling-out a character for death and ret-conning a rules mistake to KEEP him dead is being a bad GM, but continually punishing the player for your mistake by giving him future turmoil he didn't ask for or deserve, and that aren't actually a part of the rules? That's just being a bad person.
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Granted some of have pointed out we don't know the full story. Yet if it true I agree with you completely Ellis. Character death happens. Yet to lose a character because the dm made a mistake with a spell. Well it just sucks. If it was me I would have retconned the op character back to life. Before anyone mentions it's no so much a characters death. It's part of playing a rpg. Characters die. Depending on the rpg sometimes easier than others. When a character death is not only unessary and because of a mistake on the dms part it kind of ruins a players fun.
As others said, I don't think you should ignore it, I think you should tell him that the death was cheesy, unfair, and you feel singled out. And that if he wants to run s~+@ty campaigns like this, you won't be participating.
I'd also talk with the other players about this, maybe others feel this way and it will make it easier for him to change his ways. Maybe they like his style, maybe not, but it's best to find out.
When you GM I wouldn't stoop to his level. You don't have to do things to be extra nice to him (like fudge dice or make up nice backstories), but you also shouldn't outright kill him in a very obvious and immature way. If you run like that, things will only escalate. The group will break up and you might be the one that looks like the bad guy.
Getting revenge is a bad idea as I am sure you've heard too much already. I will say the same as many others just be a better GM. Oh... and you can alway give him a hard time about this bad encounter in the future, all in good fun.
Wow, people are still here? I've already moved past it and let bygones be bygones.
I mostly got angry at him on the first reaction of him denying the retcon of death and retconning the used spell instead.
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I get it, I have to ignore it, how many more are going to post saying the same thing?Welcome to the Paizo forums. You asked for advice, you're going to get it, probably repeatedly. Especially when you do something like post a revenge plot, which you're like the fifty- or sixtieth person to do here (and that's a very shallow estimate). You're going to get a lot of people telling you what a bad idea it is.
Exactly. A bad idea is going to get called out for what it is.
Expect it.
Explain your grievance without bile, bring in a new char if you feel the other one is done and dusted (or you no longer like them due to their ganked demise). Now there is no long term consequences of being ganked.
Play something fun and do crazy stuff, don't whine/mope/cry or get angry. Just have fun man.
If you get ganked again, explain this isn't good enough and you want the difficulty lowered to the level of "fun".
If the dm is not up for that, and clearly enjoys killing your chars, thank them and move on.
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Pfft. I woulda left my character dead, and brought in a new one. Let the GM have all the hassle of arranging a new character intro to the group, with the possible derail of his story because of it. I'd also have at least 2 other characters ready to go in the shadows if things start to get...complicated. Just smile and pull out a new character...and another...and another...
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If you really, REALLY, truly hate what he did to you... There is but one recourse. One act so base, so shockingly vile that it will live in infamy in the annals (huhh huh huhh huhh huhh) of gaming. Before you do, be sure you are ready to be a person to do this. You must... I find it hard to write this... DRINK HIS MILK without asking. And then the sun will no longer shine, birds will stop singing, and the stars will go out.
Pfft. I woulda left my character dead, and brought in a new one. Let the GM have all the hassle of arranging a new character intro to the group, with the possible derail of his story because of it. I'd also have at least 2 other characters ready to go in the shadows if things start to get...complicated. Just smile and pull out a new character...and another...and another...
The perfect defence is invulnerability.
Respect!
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Pfft. I woulda left my character dead, and brought in a new one. Let the GM have all the hassle of arranging a new character intro to the group, with the possible derail of his story because of it. I'd also have at least 2 other characters ready to go in the shadows if things start to get...complicated. Just smile and pull out a new character...and another...and another...The perfect defence is invulnerability.
Respect!
"How many of those did you bring?"
*slams sheet on table*"Fifty."
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If you really, REALLY, truly hate what he did to you... There is but one recourse. One act so base, so shockingly vile that it will live in infamy in the annals (huhh huh huhh huhh huhh) of gaming. Before you do, be sure you are ready to be a person to do this. You must... I find it hard to write this... DRINK HIS MILK without asking. And then the sun will no longer shine, birds will stop singing, and the stars will go out.
The ultimate revenge.