The general situation is this:
An evil character has been beaten and carted back to town and tossed in the gaol and strapped to a chair with all his equipment removed. The wizard has used arcane sight to ascertain the character has no spellcasting abilities, and proceeds to use a combination of abjurations and divinations to ensure no false alarms due to misdirection or something before casting see alignment a few times to figure out if the captive is evil.
Nothing wrong so far? Making sure a prisoner is actually evil has nothing to do with your own alignment.
But then comes the next part.
The wizard whips out a helm of opposite alignment and proceeds to put it on the captive's head, take it off, put it back on, and repeat until his detect magic stops pinging and the helmet is expended.
Is that a good act? And is it immoral? Should the respect for the captive's free will preclude magical shenanigans for utilitarian reasons?
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Evil. It's essentially brainwashing, violating the prisoner's soul on a fundamental level.
To put it another way, sanctify the wicked was sharply criticized as being nothing more than a "good"-aligned version of the Book of Vile Darkness' mindrape spell, and that's with sanctify the wicked taking steps to clarify what's really going on in it.
The Helm of Opposite Alignment doesn't even have sanctify the wicked's defenses.
That's just for the standard use of the item too. Using it repeatedly on someone just to read magical results is a horrific form of psychological and spiritual torture, violating this unconsenting being's soul, forcibly changing their nature over and over with little concern for the person they are or the person they momentarily become.
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Evil. It's essentially brainwashing, violating the prisoner's soul on a fundamental level.
To put it another way, sanctify the wicked was sharply criticized as being nothing more than a "good"-aligned version of the Book of Vile Darkness' mindrape spell, and that's with sanctify the wicked taking steps to clarify what's really going on in it.
The Helm of Opposite Alignment doesn't even have sanctify the wicked's defenses.
That's just for the standard use of the item too. Using it repeatedly on someone just to read magical results is a horrific form of psychological and spiritual torture, violating this unconsenting being's soul, forcibly changing their nature over and over with little concern for the person they are or the person they momentarily become.
Mikaze, you just posted nearly the same that I was about to post.
Sure, you can forcible make them "good" but it's horrible way to do it imho.
Say, this npc knows/discovers/remembers that this was done forcibly to them. Don't you think that they'd feel violated and wronged? Wouldn't that make them feel bitter, abused and/or angry? Want revenge or justice? I think that in the long run, you'd be more likely to create someone that was just as nasty if not worse, and probably less stable.
Convincing them that their evil ways are wrong and getting them to change for the better is not only likely to be a more lasting change, but affords you some intense story play possibilities and a possible ally or henchmen and/or a person who is perhaps slowly changing, but still a good antagonist, tho perhaps in lessening degrees as time passes.
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Just because his alignment gets changed doesn't mean he cant start killing people again and have it change back.
I think the point of the helm is that the creature would want act as it's new alignment.
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I'd say no. In fact, in a high-magic lawful good society, it would probably be a better alternative to execution or incarceration.
It concentrates on rehabilitation rather than punishment. Suddenly, the evil person knows exactly why what they did was wrong, and can start making amends immediately. It completely does away with the problem of sociopaths and repeat offenders.
The big problem would be potential suicides after the alignment shift.
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I'd say no. In fact, in a high-magic lawful good society, it would probably be a better alternative to execution or incarceration.
It concentrates on rehabilitation rather than punishment. Suddenly, the evil person knows exactly why what they did was wrong, and can start making amends immediately. It completely does away with the problem of sociopaths and repeat offenders.
The big problem would be potential suicides after the alignment shift.
Nice I just thought up an awesome campaign. The ruler of a kingdom makes an alignment changing machine and forces it on anyone they find to be "out of alignment". PCs have to join a resistance force to overthrow the evil bastard!
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Just because his alignment gets changed doesn't mean he cant start killing people again and have it change back.I think the point of the helm is that the creature would want act as it's new alignment.
This is how my Malconvoker acquired his Chaotic Good Pit Fiend Planar Cohort (The Thaumaturgist class feature not the Planar Ally spell). And yes, the creature does resist any attempts to return it to its original alignment:
"Only a wish or a miracle can restore a character's former alignment, and the affected individual does not make any attempt to return to the former alignment. In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible. "
My Malconvoker wrote the whole thing off as a good act, since it turned a major source of literal evil into a source of good. And hey, its not like he personally put the helm on the pit fiend, he just arranged for it to happen. (Also because he as a Malconvoker thats pretty much his whole schtick.)
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Just because his alignment gets changed doesn't mean he cant start killing people again and have it change back.I think the point of the helm is that the creature would want act as it's new alignment.This is how my Malconvoker acquired his Chaotic Good Pit Fiend Planar Cohort (The Thaumaturgist class feature not the Planar Ally spell). And yes, the creature does resist any attempts to return it to its original alignment:
"Only a wish or a miracle can restore a character's former alignment, and the affected individual does not make any attempt to return to the former alignment. In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible. "
My Malconvoker wrote the whole thing off as a good act, since it turned a major source of literal evil into a source of good. And hey, its not like he personally put the helm on the pit fiend, he just arranged for it to happen. (Also because he as a Malconvoker thats pretty much his whole schtick.)
This is why, in a setting where morality actually is Objective (because of actual, real gods who decide what is and isn't good), changing anyone's alignment to Good is fundamentally a Good act. It doesn't just get rid of evil (like killing them would), it actually creates more good.
It might be arguably removing their freedom of choice, but Objective Morality doesn't have much to do with the nature of choices, and more to do with the nature of actions themselves.
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Just because his alignment gets changed doesn't mean he cant start killing people again and have it change back.I think the point of the helm is that the creature would want act as it's new alignment.This is how my Malconvoker acquired his Chaotic Good Pit Fiend Planar Cohort (The Thaumaturgist class feature not the Planar Ally spell). And yes, the creature does resist any attempts to return it to its original alignment:
"Only a wish or a miracle can restore a character's former alignment, and the affected individual does not make any attempt to return to the former alignment. In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible. "
My Malconvoker wrote the whole thing off as a good act, since it turned a major source of literal evil into a source of good. And hey, its not like he personally put the helm on the pit fiend, he just arranged for it to happen. (Also because he as a Malconvoker thats pretty much his whole schtick.)
Shenanigans, pit fiend cant fail a 15 will save.
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Shenanigans, pit fiend cant fail a 15 will save.
be a high level Wizard. Cast Dominate with an abusively high DC.
"Ok, Mr. Demon, now that do what I say, I want you to put on this hat and not resist it's effects."
Done.
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Shenanigans, pit fiend cant fail a 15 will save.be a high level Wizard. Cast Dominate with an abusively high DC.
"Ok, Mr. Demon, now that do what I say, I want you to put on this hat and not resist it's effects."
Done.
Better hope so cause Mr fiend gets a re-roll at +2 and when he makes it he rams his fist and uses your wizard as a sock puppet.
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Interfering with free will should be a big No-No to a strongly Chaotic character.
For a Lawful character, it would heavily depend on what his traditions state. Maybe forced alignment change is considered too soft and death is the usual punishment.
Note that Good/Evil does not yet make it into the process.
The real matter for the latter IMO is if the "evil turned good" NPC dies where does his soul go after Pharasma's judgement ?
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This is an excellent question. My answer is 'maybe'.
It depends on the version of Good the wizard/society follows. Do not confuse modern morality with a fantasy game's version. Taking away someone's free will is evil nowadays but might not be if the person/society in the game is Good but highly dictatorial. 'Our God tells us to make people Good'.
So, in this situation, what are the standards of behaviour in your game world for this society?
Better hope so cause Mr fiend gets a re-roll at +2 and when he makes it he rams his fist and uses your wizard as a sock puppet.
Shenanigans, pit fiend cant fail a 15 will save.be a high level Wizard. Cast Dominate with an abusively high DC.
"Ok, Mr. Demon, now that do what I say, I want you to put on this hat and not resist it's effects."
Done.
Oh, the Pit Fiend had a literally 1/20 chance of making the save, but luckily it didn't (though that would have gone badly for it anyway).
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in terms of pure morality, of course it is immoral to force another to do anything against their will. The question then enters the slippery slope of "Is it for the greater good", and it may be considered "good" to eliminate an evil being by "converting" them, however, this method would be akin to basically torturing someone to force them to a new belief system, much like the Inquisition.
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If you're going be Book of Exalted Deeds morality, it's clearly a Good act.
By my reckoning, it's a Lawful Good act. You're doing it for the greater good, not for personal gain. Yes, you're taking away personal choice, but the subject had already demonstrated that he could not, for the good of himself or others, be trusted with that choice.
Also, most importantly, if it's not a Good act, then I can't have angels running around brainwas....redeeming people - and that's not a story opportunity I want to pass up.
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I think that it is a much worse thing to do to someone then kill them.
You are effectively killing them and replacing them with someone who is opposed to everything they ever stood for.
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this method would be akin to basically torturing someone to force them to a new belief system, much like the Inquisition.
Except a), it's painless, b) it actually works. What the inquisition did was wrong on much more basic principles: it inflicted pain for no actual gain.
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Convincing them that their evil ways are wrong and getting them to change for the better is not only likely to be a more lasting change, but affords you some intense story play possibilities and a possible ally or henchmen and/or a person who is perhaps slowly changing, but still a good antagonist, tho perhaps in lessening degrees as time passes.
Absolutely agreed there. For redemption to be true and have meaning, it has to be a matter of choice. It shouldn't just be a flip of the switch. I love redemption themes, and to have it reduced to wrestling people down and rewriting their souls without their consent just poisons it all.
Having Good engaging in soul violation and mindrewriting is just having them act like Evil with a different team jersey. And Good deserves better than that.
It's evil, although we did it in a campaign. An Ettin had one head switched and was fighting over a young bard it had kidnapped. We used one to switch the other head. It went to become a Paladin, and the bard stayed with it most of the time, as teacher and associate.
The campaign was full of lighthearted moments such as Owlbearnip. Yep it has the same effect on owlbears as catnip has on cats.
It is questionable at best, but it can either be Neutral or Evil as a deed depending on how vile the target of the effect is.
Most people would be fine with putting one on a Balor, but probably would question the need to have it used on a common thug.
That's just for the standard use of the item too. Using it repeatedly on someone just to read magical results is a horrific form of psychological and spiritual torture, violating this unconsenting being's soul, forcibly changing their nature over and over with little concern for the person they are or the person they momentarily become.Absolutely agreed there. For redemption to be true and have meaning, it has to be a matter of choice. It shouldn't just be a flip of the switch. I love redemption themes, and to have it reduced to wrestling people down and rewriting their souls without their consent just poisons it all.
Having Good engaging in soul violation and mindrewriting is just having them act like Evil with a different team jersey. And Good deserves better than that.
Did you just agree with yourself?
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Do we need a new position on the scale of good and evil?
Good - Neutral - Evil - Player Character
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A Clockwork Orange comes to mind.
It is questionable at best, but it can either be Neutral or Evil as a deed depending on how vile the target of the effect is.
Most people would be fine with putting one on a Balor, but probably would question the need to have it used on a common thug.
Would it even fit on a Balor's head?
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Did you just agree with yourself?That's just for the standard use of the item too. Using it repeatedly on someone just to read magical results is a horrific form of psychological and spiritual torture, violating this unconsenting being's soul, forcibly changing their nature over and over with little concern for the person they are or the person they momentarily become.Absolutely agreed there. For redemption to be true and have meaning, it has to be a matter of choice. It shouldn't just be a flip of the switch. I love redemption themes, and to have it reduced to wrestling people down and rewriting their souls without their consent just poisons it all.
Having Good engaging in soul violation and mindrewriting is just having them act like Evil with a different team jersey. And Good deserves better than that.
Yeah did I just see that?
This is why, in a setting where morality actually is Objective (because of actual, real gods who decide what is and isn't good), changing anyone's alignment to Good is fundamentally a Good act. It doesn't just get rid of evil (like killing them would), it actually creates more good.
It might be arguably removing their freedom of choice, but Objective Morality doesn't have much to do with the nature of choices, and more to do with the nature of actions themselves.
This makes a great deal of sense to me.
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Did you just agree with yourself?That's just for the standard use of the item too. Using it repeatedly on someone just to read magical results is a horrific form of psychological and spiritual torture, violating this unconsenting being's soul, forcibly changing their nature over and over with little concern for the person they are or the person they momentarily become.Absolutely agreed there. For redemption to be true and have meaning, it has to be a matter of choice. It shouldn't just be a flip of the switch. I love redemption themes, and to have it reduced to wrestling people down and rewriting their souls without their consent just poisons it all.
Having Good engaging in soul violation and mindrewriting is just having them act like Evil with a different team jersey. And Good deserves better than that.
GOBDOBBIT
I was supposed to be quoting the last paragraphs of WitchyTangle's post. Specifically:
Convincing them that their evil ways are wrong and getting them to change for the better is not only likely to be a more lasting change, but affords you some intense story play possibilities and a possible ally or henchmen and/or a person who is perhaps slowly changing, but still a good antagonist, tho perhaps in lessening degrees as time passes.
Freakin' iPhone/NyQuil.
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Just imagined a Hellknight Signifier who'd craft Helms of Opposite Alignment for the purpose of "rewiring" demons, azata and proteans to serving the will of the law...
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There's also the matter that the OP's scenario isn't just a straightforward use of the helm of alignment. It's repeatedly using it on the same person all just to ensure that they know the victim's alignment.
Maybe it's just how I read the OP, but I thought the only reason for placing on someone repeatedly was to do so until it actually worked, ie the victim failed the save. Not using lots of helms to keep changing their alignment like throwing a switch.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/cursed-items#TOC-Helm-of-Opposite-Align ment
When a helm of opposite alignment has functioned once, it loses its magical properties.
Additionally, it might be made 'law' for this sort of punishment to be imposed/be a choice instead of execution. However, a Lawful Evil victim becoming Chaotic Good might decide to form a rebellion and overthrow this sort of set up. Lots of role-playing possibilities here.
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Additionally, it might be made 'law' for this sort of punishment to be imposed/be a choice instead of execution. However, a Lawful Evil victim becoming Chaotic Good might decide to form a rebellion and overthrow this sort of set up. Lots of role-playing possibilities here.
Oh man, there's one hell of a story waiting to happen there.
"This ends now. Do I want to change back? No. But if you expect me to thank you for this, go to hell. You forced this on me. I didn't choose this. I didn't get to earn this.
You really think I should be grateful?! Gods damn you.
I get to live the rest of my life not knowing if this is really me. I get to look in a mirror and wonder if I'm seeing a stranger. I will never know if I deserved what I am now. You took that from me.
I'll never know if what I am now is really me or that damned helmet.
That isn't redemption. That's Hell. And it ends now."
That is also a very interesting development.
Remember the helm changes their alignment, not their allies/enemies, and Good characters can oppose Good characters.
You could even have the now "good" enemy try to punish the PC for brainwashing him (he doesn't want it undone, but he does see the act as evil that needs punishment).
I really like this answer... The saying: You may be "right", but you don't have "The Right", Comes to mind.
Here's the thing about putting the helm on, detecting, and taking it off over and over... Yea, that's torture... Why? Because he's making Will Saves; he knows that "Hat" is trying to do something to his mind/soul and he is fighting it with every fiber of his being, but you have him tied up, unable to escape and at you're mercy.. and you keep... on... doing it... over, and over, until you get the result YOU want.
On the plus side, you made him good! On the down side, you just ran headlong towards that road paved with good intentions! Welcome to the dark side! We have cookies!
And you know what, I could totally see a LN Judge siding with the "victim" here... The fact that the Helm is a Cursed item and not intended as a method of "redemption" makes it really, really unlikely someone went ahead and wrote a law making this an OK practice. This is the type of thing you expect out a a LE society at best, but never a LN or LG one.
Wizard: "ok, now that we are done with that,you're good now, friends right?"
Prisoner: "Wow, I really was a horrible person... Guards? I would like to lodge a criminal complaint against this man for unspeakable supernatural torture, I am willing to submit to any and all divination magics needed by the court to keep this menace away from society!"
6 Months Later
Judge: While the court acknowledges the services provided by his Most Magicalness, we also find his crimes against this man unforgivable.. GUILTY
Wizards Face (Priceless)
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I'm just happy to know there are so many people more cynical than me.
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As Mikaze explained much better than I could, it's undoubtably Evil, with a major "E".
It concentrates on rehabilitation rather than punishment. Suddenly, the evil person knows exactly why what they did was wrong, and can start making amends immediately. It completely does away with the problem of sociopaths and repeat offenders.
The big problem would be potential suicides after the alignment shift.
Which afterlife would they go to if they die before they make amends? Is there a chance you could send someone with a good moral outlook to hell before they can change?
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Morality is objective in this world.
It's a Good act (capital G) because it creates Good aligned creatures.
It's tyrannical, but LG allows for benevolent tyrants.
Also wanted to note: this is a great thread and there are some very thoughtful posts here. It's the kind of thing I hope to see on the forums.
Since it won't actually accomplish anything, no.
Your actions determine your alignment, not the other way around. You plunk the helmet on them, all that will happen is that they'll be affected by certain spells differently. They'll just act the way they always did, and eventually shift back.
Day 1: Helm of opposite alignment used to make criminals good.
Day 17: Spells of gender change used to make transexuals "normal"
Day 21: Spells of Species change used to make people believeing their the wrong species "normal"
Day 34: Spells of gender orientation used to make homosexuals "normal"
Day 79: Elven village overrun and converted to the "natural" condition.
Day 102: Society of 100% lawful good, homosexual humans gets wiped off the map by an alliance of every free thinking race good, evil, lawful, chaotic and neutral in the vicinity as an abomination.Seriously an unarmed, defeneselss person was magically transformed into something completely different to everything they ever believed in against their will. That is definately not good, the end OBJECTIVE result may be good but that persons actions are definately evil.
Except that in PF, being an evil creature makes something evil, but not being heteronormative doesn't.
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Since it won't actually accomplish anything, no.
Your actions determine your alignment, not the other way around. You plunk the helmet on them, all that will happen is that they'll be affected by certain spells differently. They'll just act the way they always did, and eventually shift back.
Nope. "They perceive the prospect of returning to their old alignment with horror and will do anything possible to avoid it." Presumably this would involve not doing evil acts.