No.
In order to USE improved something, you have to have something. This would be a three part process.
Racial Heritage: Allows you to take the feat/ability.
Ability: Gives you the ability
improved ability: improves the ability.
For example here you would have Racial Heritage Orc, toothy feat, improved natural attack.
Its cheesey and weird enough without skipping the middle step.
Actually your getting circumstance penalties. Your DM may not force them but common sense dictates that your not managing it. That the problem we see some people assume that if there isn't a specific listed penalty for something that there can't be one.
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Actually you're getting circumstance penalties. Your DM may not force them but common sense dictates that your not managing it. That the problem we see some people assume that if there isn't a specific listed penalty for something that there can't be one.
You could, reasonably, as a DM, apply a circumstance penalty to said Aasimar, on Disguise then.
I am saying, that even if you decide to never take the Racial heritage feat at all, you could, as an Aasimar, have a tail, even with the Scion of Humanity trait.
It would do nothing for you, mechanically, but you could still have it.
Just as a Tiefling can have horns, even though they do not have a gore attack.
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Actually you're getting circumstance penalties. Your DM may not force them but common sense dictates that your not managing it. That the problem we see some people assume that if there isn't a specific listed penalty for something that there can't be one.You could, reasonably, as a DM, apply a circumstance penalty to said Aasimar, on Disguise then.
I am saying, that even if you decide to never take the Racial heritage feat at all, you could, as an Aasimar, have a tail, even with the Scion of Humanity trait.
It would do nothing for you, mechanically, but you could still have it.
Just as a Tiefling can have horns, even though they do not have a gore attack.
Scion of Humanity specifically states that the Aasimar appears no different than a human. We have a dev statement that Humans do not have tails. By extension Aasimar's with Scion of Humanity don't have tails. So regardless of your reasoning about three eyes or other deformities you are arguing with a developer's ruling on the matter.
Aasimar's without Scion of Humanity can't take Racial Heritage(Kobold) and thus can't take Tail Terror. Aasimars with Scion of Humanity and Racial Heritage(Kobold) can take Tail Terror but once again, by developer ruling, have no tail to use it with.
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What about a scion of humanity taking angelic flesh, do they still automatically pass as human?Actually you're getting circumstance penalties. Your DM may not force them but common sense dictates that your not managing it. That the problem we see some people assume that if there isn't a specific listed penalty for something that there can't be one.You could, reasonably, as a DM, apply a circumstance penalty to said Aasimar, on Disguise then.
I am saying, that even if you decide to never take the Racial heritage feat at all, you could, as an Aasimar, have a tail, even with the Scion of Humanity trait.
It would do nothing for you, mechanically, but you could still have it.
Just as a Tiefling can have horns, even though they do not have a gore attack.
Scion of Humanity specifically states that the Aasimar appears no different than a human. We have a dev statement that Humans do not have tails. By extension Aasimar's with Scion of Humanity don't have tails. So regardless of your reasoning about three eyes or other deformities you are arguing with a developer's ruling on the matter.
Aasimar's without Scion of Humanity can't take Racial Heritage(Kobold) and thus can't take Tail Terror. Aasimars with Scion of Humanity and Racial Heritage(Kobold) can take Tail Terror but once again, by developer ruling, have no tail to use it with.
Nope because now their flesh looks like metal. They have a feat that specifically alters their appearance in one specific way and that feat states exactly what it does.
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However, your physical appearance changes from other sources are a separate matter altogether. If you also happen to take Racial Heritage(Kitsune) and grow a fox tail, it's unreasonable that Scion of Humanity will let you hide the tail effortlessly.
Except that is what it says it does. You don't even have to make a roll. Even if you are searched by an enemy they will never know you are anything but human
It is, however, reasonable that you can hide your Outsider heritage while, simultaneously, not passing yourself off as "completely" human but as a Human with a Fox Tail (or cat ears or a kobold's tail or dragon scales or whatever other non-standard physical feature you may possess). Again, it's very important not to over-generalize while, at the same time, it's important not to over-specify what the rules do or don't do. It's ridiculous to say a Scion of Humanity Aasimar with Racial Heritage(Kitsune) can hide their fox tail without a check because Scion of Humanity lets them appear, freely, as Human (over-generalized). It's just as ridiculous to say that a Kobold-stock Scion of Kobold-kind (achieved by GM fiat) has a tail consistent with the physical appearance of a Kobold, but that this tail is inexplicably incompatible with the Tail Terror feat because of rules meant to prohibit a non-Human Aasimar from claiming Racial...
I'm not even going to bother with this. If your GM gave you Scion of Kobldkind as a house rule then sure take Tail Terror because I don't think he's going to balk at that. What can happen in a house ruled situation has no bearing on RAW.
RAW you can only take Scion of Humanity. Scion of Humanity makes you appear completely human, even buck naked in the middle of town thus no tail.
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So, the Scion of Humanity trait completely removes any flavor options normally available to all other Aasimar?
Stepford Aasimar is RAW now?
This is the "common sense" now?
Yes, that is the purpose of that trait. You give up any appearance of being an Outsider in return for the ability to count as a Human and be completely undetectable as anything other than a human without even a Disguise roll. Like every other trait where you give up something to get something.
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What's to say that the unique features are simply easier to hide?
There is no "absolutely lacking in uniqueness, even whilst nude" restriction.
There is no "remove all appearance of the outsider type" caveat either.
You add more to the trait than is written, to create a restriction that suites your tastes.
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What's to say that the unique features are simply easier to hide?
There is no "absolutely lacking in uniqueness, even whilst nude" restriction.
There is no "remove all appearance of the outsider type" caveat either.
You add more to the trait than is written, to create a restriction that suites your tastes.
The Scion of Humanity says you don't have to even use the Disguise skill to appear as human. It doesn't just give bonuses to a check it entirely eliminates the check.
Are you haggling with a merchant in town? It requires no check for him to think you are human. Were you captured by the town guard who are now searching you for weapons? It requires no check for them to think you are human. Were you captured by the Slave Lords of Badmanland and are chained to a pole in nothing but a loincloth with buyers haggling over your price. It requires no check for them to think you are human.
If there was a check there would be bonuses as well as penalties in each of those situations but with Scion of Humanity you don't even have to make a check. That is directly stated in the trait. You don't have to make the check period.
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Yep.
All of mass amounts of information you provided, noting how it restricts all that you say it does, is written in there.
But maybe, it just says:
Scion of Humanity: Some aasimars' heavenly ancestry is extremely distant. An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids. She can pass for human without using the Disguise skill. This racial trait replaces the Celestial language and alters the native subtype.
Huh.
Doesn't seem to say a thing about appearance, or that it differs from any other Aasimar.
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Yep.
All of mass amounts of information you provided, noting how it restricts all that you say it does, is written in there.
But maybe, it just says:
Scion of Humanity: Some aasimars' heavenly ancestry is extremely distant. An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids. She can pass for human without using the Disguise skill. This racial trait replaces the Celestial language and alters the native subtype.Huh.
Doesn't seem to say a thing about appearance, or that it differs from any other Aasimar.
Pass for human how? Does that mean pass for Human on a DNA test? Does it mean pass for human on a "What race are you?" quiz in Adventurers Weekly Magazine? Come on now. You know good and well what that means. Pass for human means appears human to an observer.
What does the Disguise skill do? You use it to change your appearance don't you? With Scion of Humanity you don't have to use the Disguise skill, i.e. change your appearance, to pass as human.
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That begs the question PatientWolf, if I am a regular human who takes Aspect of the Beast to grow claws, would you require a disguise check to still appear human? What if I am a sorcerer and my bloodline grants me wings? Or if I grow horns while raging?
I still think taking racial heritage on a scion of humanity aasimar is pretty cheesy (but then again I think aasimars can be pretty cheesy in general).
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You also can play any number of Native Outsider races, and look very Human, but still suffer a penalty to Disguise.
This is the nature of the type.
You say RAW supports your stance.
You have provided nothing RAW, and do not even have flavor text to support your stance.
I have provided RAW, and flavor text.
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That begs the question PatientWolf, if I am a regular human who takes Aspect of the Beast to grow claws, would you require a disguise check to still appear human? What if I am a sorcerer and my bloodline grants me wings? Or if I grow horns while raging?
I still think taking racial heritage on a scion of humanity aasimar is pretty cheesy (but then again I think aasimars can be pretty cheesy in general).
If you don't want your claws or wings to be noticed. Yes you most certainly have to make a Disguise check.
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You also can play any number of Native Outsider races, and look very Human, but still suffer a penalty to Disguise.
This is the nature of the type.
You say RAW supports your stance.
You have provided nothing RAW, and do not even have flavor text to support your stance.
I have provided RAW, and flavor text.
Your very first line supports my position. Yes you can play any number of Outsider races that look very human but still something is just off. With Scion of Humanity there isn't even a check.
I have given you RAW. I've done nothing but quote and bold face the part of the trait that says you pass for human without a check.
Disguise
(Cha)
You are skilled at changing your appearance.Check: Your Disguise check result determines how good the disguise is, and it is opposed by others' Perception check results. If you don't draw any attention to yourself, others do not get to make Perception checks. If you come to the attention of people who are suspicious (such as a guard who is watching commoners walking through a city gate), it can be assumed that such observers are taking 10 on their Perception checks.
You get only one Disguise check per use of the skill, even if several people make Perception checks against it. The Disguise check is made secretly, so that you can't be sure how good the result is.
The effectiveness of your disguise depends on how much you're changing your appearance.
Scion of Humanity: Some aasimars' heavenly ancestry is extremely distant. An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids. She can pass for human without using the Disguise skill. This racial trait replaces the Celestial language and alters the native subtype.
Disguise is all about changing appearance. You are living up to your name and deliberately trolling because there is no way you are missing that line.
You tell me what it means that the Aasimar passes for human without a disguise check. Do they have to make a check if they are being bodily inspected from head to toe?
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That begs the question PatientWolf, if I am a regular human who takes Aspect of the Beast to grow claws, would you require a disguise check to still appear human? What if I am a sorcerer and my bloodline grants me wings? Or if I grow horns while raging?
I still think taking racial heritage on a scion of humanity aasimar is pretty cheesy (but then again I think aasimars can be pretty cheesy in general).
If you don't want your claws or wings to be noticed. Yes you most certainly have to make a Disguise check.
Could be that their claws are retractible. Their wings look like a cloak when not in use. Horns are small enough to hide under bangs.
There's tons of available answers to that statement if you were willing to be creative and not purposefully obtuse.
Scion of humanity doesn't make you human. It makes you look passably human to a casual observer. There's a lot of variance possible under that condition.
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Let's pretend for a moment the Racial Heritage feat doesn't exist, because I suspect it is influencing your view.
I would still make this same stand.
You can have a Halo, Wings, and no Disguise penalty to appear Human.
Even if we follow this Scion of Humanity flavor physical traits restriction you have decided exists.
Think about that.
Now, a tail, one of listed flavor physical attributes, is somehow "totally ridiculous" in comparison?
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Scion of humanity doesn't make you human. It makes you look passably human to a casual observer. There's a lot of variance possible under that condition.
You just added that line in there out of whole cloth. Nothing in Scion of Humanity says to the casual observer. It says you pass for Human without a Disguise check PERIOD. Casual Observer = No Disguise Check. Pat Down = No Disguise Check. Full Body Strip Search = No Disguise Check.
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As the developer stated common sense trumps RAW combos.
If you are trying to look like a human yet wander around with wings, tails, claws, and monstrous teeth then you automatically fail any disguise attempt. At least you do in my game... but then I use common sense.
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Let's pretend for a moment the Racial Heritage feat doesn't exist, because I suspect it is influencing your view.
I would still make this same stand.
You can have a Halo, Wings, and no Disguise penalty to appear Human.
Even if we follow this Scion of Humanity flavor physical traits restriction you have decided exists.
Think about that.
Now, a tail, one of listed flavor physical attributes, is somehow "totally ridiculous" in comparison?
We have not even been talking about Racial Hertiage. How is that influencing my view??? We've been discussing only the Scion of Humanity.
I agree it would be extremely cheesy and against RAI if you take Scion of Humanity and then a feat that gives you gigantic metallic wings and gleaming silver skin. The Halo trait is not an always on thing so that is moot.
However, you don't just start with those features. You must take a feat that grants them. You can't take an obviously unintended consequence like a guy with a brightly shining halo, shining silver skin, huge metallic wings walking down the middle of town and everyone just assuming he is an ordinary human and blow that up into a case for your position.
By RAW you begin looking like an ordinary human and you take feats that alter that.
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As the developer stated common sense trumps RAW combos.
If you are trying to look like a human yet wander around with wings, tails, claws, and monstrous teeth then you automatically fail any disguise attempt that doesn't also have those features. At least you do in my game... but then I use common sense.
I agree. Unfortunately those who want that free tail want it badly.
Does everything have to be Developer Ruled On? Whatever happened to DM fiat?
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Actually, you can start with a Halo, and Scion of Humanity, without the aid of feats.
I addressed that. A Halo is a spell like ability effect it is not a physical feature.
I swore to myself I would not get drawn back into this discussion and I've spent all morning arguing here again.
Any reasonable person can see that Scion of Humanity makes you look just like a human. A dev has already stated that humans don't have tails. Any reasonable person is going to understand that an Aasimar with Scion of Humanity by extension doesn't have a tail by default.
I'm done. I'm tired of arguing with those who refuse to accept plain English, common sense and sound logic. I am not even going to open this thread again because if I do I can't help but comment. If I post on this thread again someone please track me down using whatever means necessary, come to my home and beat me about the head and shoulders with the Corebook until I pass out.
maybe by post 2000 we can have a dev weigh in on this issue. Since now apparently we have a new can of worms opened up.
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I really did not expect anyone to disagree with the Aasimar.
Hell, I figured, that was at least the one race that could take this feat combo, and not have a big fuss over.
Even if they disagree with the feat combo, I was really taken aback by the outcry of flavor physical attributes. Especially the ones listed in the race's description.
Its trying to have your cake and eat it to in a sense. Im Kobold I look like a kobold in a sense i have a kobold tail i can use as a weapon. all because i took a trait that says im more human. Not to mention even a human assiamar with wings and metal skin honestly shouldnt be getting his trait benefit of always seeming human any more. He might still have the blood to take human feats and such but no longer should he be passing as human for free. Even the smaller traits such as a fox tail or scales should cause a problem. There is no reason you cant be a more exotic outsider type assiamar and still take the trait but at that point you shouldn't be also claiming that you have wild exotic features not inline with being a human.
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maybe by post 2000 we can have a dev weigh in on this issue. Since now apparently we have a new can of worms opened up.
I weighed in a while ago. To be honest I've seen nothing that needs me to weigh in any further. But I will say this: Disguise does not change morphology, it allows you to hide or emulate (but not actually have) morphology.
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I weighed in a while ago. To be honest I've seen nothing that needs me to weigh in any further. But I will say this: Disguise does not change morphology, it allows you to hide or emulate (but not actually have) morphology.
Did you have to weigh in this originally because you lost at "Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock" in the office?
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Did you have to weigh in this originally because you lost at "Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock" in the office?
Ayep. ;)
If you take Scion of Humanity, RAW, you look like a human. If you have some weird tail or a halo or wings or whatever other deformity that a "normal" human would not have, you will not be received as a normal human by an NPC. You have to remember there is also the "fluff" side of playing, and no amount of RAW is going to convince that idiot inn keeper that you're a human if you have giant angel wings. And if it's me as GM, I'm going to make you roll disguise to hide your wings, even if you have Scion of Humanity. Common sense, folks.
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It's worth noting that a Human can have claws, horns, and a bite attack (see: rage powers) and they don't need to make disguise checks to prove their human.
With feats (like racial heritage) they can even have wings, metal skin, and a halo, and they still don't need to make disguise checks, even under a full strip-search pat down.
If an actual human is still human-looking in spite of inhuman features, then so is an aasamar with scion of humanity.
You can explain it in-game however you like. Mechanically, it's pretty clear.
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It's worth noting that a Human can have claws, horns, and a bite attack (see: rage powers) and they don't need to make disguise checks to prove their human.
With feats (like racial heritage) they can even have wings, metal skin, and a halo, and they still don't need to make disguise checks, even under a full strip-search pat down.
If an actual human is still human-looking in spite of inhuman features, then so is an aasamar with scion of humanity.
You can explain it in-game however you like. Mechanically, it's pretty clear.
Sometimes what makes sense has to trump mechanics. It's going to take a lot of convincing to get the inn keeper to believe you're human if you've sprouted wings, metallic skin, a halo, and claws. I don't care what mechanics say in that situation.
Note that I didn't say disguise checks to prove they are human, but to hide their non-human features.
Doesn't seem to say a thing about appearance, or that it differs from any other Aasimar.
You are entitled to your own opinions in your quest for cheese, this is obviously, blatantly, baldly, disingenuously, and shamelessly making up your own facts.
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Doesn't seem to say a thing about appearance, or that it differs from any other Aasimar.You are entitled to your own opinions in your quest for cheese, this is obviously, blatantly, baldly, disingenuously, and shamelessly making up your own facts.
Even though I ultimately disagree with him, he does have a point, and is not distorting things nearly to the degree you imply.
A human draconic bloodline sorcerer will have Claws and Wings, but they by RAW do not have to make a disguise check to pass themselves off as human because by RAW they are human. RAI and common sense say that they may have issues, but RAW says they are human.
On one side we have people who are almost hyper restrictive in what constitutes a "human" that I half expect them to say you have to be blond haired and blue eyed or you are not really a pure human. On the other hand, some of what in considered human by strict RAW can get pretty far out there.
So isnt that the same thing? An Aasimar with non human features would just look like a mostly human human with some non human features and among the adventuring crowd at least would be a decently common occurance. you would make disguise checks to hide your specific features if you want but even if seen you still come across as human vice outsider.It's worth noting that a Human can have claws, horns, and a bite attack (see: rage powers) and they don't need to make disguise checks to prove their human.
With feats (like racial heritage) they can even have wings, metal skin, and a halo, and they still don't need to make disguise checks, even under a full strip-search pat down.
If an actual human is still human-looking in spite of inhuman features, then so is an aasamar with scion of humanity.
You can explain it in-game however you like. Mechanically, it's pretty clear.
Sometimes what makes sense has to trump mechanics. It's going to take a lot of convincing to get the inn keeper to believe you're human if you've sprouted wings, metallic skin, a halo, and claws. I don't care what mechanics say in that situation.
Note that I didn't say disguise checks to prove they are human, but to hide their non-human features.
You're missing the point. I don't care if you're human, an aasimar, or something else. If you have weird non-human features, you're going to have to work to hide them if you want to be treated as a human. Scion of Humanity will make you appear as a human if you are an aasimar, but I take that to apply to the base, most common form of aasimar -- that is, a celestial-looking human without any other weird body features such as wings, a tail, or a halo, now appearing as a non-celestial pretty-run-of-the-mill human.
Whether you're a human with claws or an aasimar who looks like a human who has claws, you're not getting treated as a "normal person" by John Innkeeper without a successful bluff, disguise, or diplomacy check.
"We don't take no freaks er nuthin' in these here parts!"
EDIT: Charender, did you just, very subtly, apply Godwin's Law? :D
Even though I ultimately disagree with him, he does have a point, and is not distorting things nearly to the degree you imply.
Yes. He is.
She can pass for human without using the Disguise skill.
Clearly, objectively, an unequivocally says its changing your appearance.
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Even though I ultimately disagree with him, he does have a point, and is not distorting things nearly to the degree you imply.
Yes. He is.She can pass for human without using the Disguise skill.
Clearly, objectively, an unequivocally says its changing your appearance.
and by strict RAW, a level 15 human draconic sorcerer also automatically passes any disguise check to appear human despite possessing dragon claws and wings.
EDIT: Charender, did you just, very subtly, apply Godwin's Law? :D
I have no idea what you are talking about... :P