Does the Racial Heritage feat, combined with a feat that improves an inherent feature (claws, poison, etc) grant you that feature?


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Shadow Lodge

Torbyne wrote:
PatientWolf wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Facepalm.

I agree. Pages and pages of arguing with you guys that Racial Heritage does only what it says it does and nothing else. That possessing a tail is absolutely required for Tail Terror by RAW. A dev finally shows up and completely agrees with both of those statements but you guys just can't accept that you lost the argument. You have to go and drum up this kobold-aasimar argument which uses the exact same faulty reasoning that led to your incorrect conclusions about Racial Heritage/Tail Terror.

Doomed Hero wrote:
if this ever comes up in a game I run I'm going to say "sure, why not."
Which no one has denied your right to do.
But the arguement against is based on humans not having tails and nothing ever granting them one. A pure Kobold's tail is only mentioned in its descriptive text, we take that as the RAW proof that Kobolds have tails. Now we look at the Asimar-Kobold, they have some lee way but otherwise look just like other Kobolds, meaning their descriptive text should follow the mold of a baseline Kobold. That means a tail is now expected rather than just possible. It has the exact same anchor in RAW as any other Kobold. By RAW you still need Scion Of Humanity and Racial Heritage to count as a Kobold for the feat but just for being the variant Aasimar you have the exact same kind of tail and useage of that tail once you take the feat. (As a side point, i'd go for a metalic scaled Kobold with a halo to drive home the "Not evil mook" thing to the unwise.)

Once again as has been stated. It isn't a matter of how many feats are required or whether it is overpowered. Aasimar-Kobold does NOT have the same RAW that the Kobold does because the Kobold descriptive text never says they have only a cosmetic tail. It says they actually have a fully functioning tail. The text of non-human Aasimars specifically says everything other than size is merely cosmetic this would include the tail. They are NOT equivalents like you claim.


PatientWolf wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
PatientWolf wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Facepalm.

I agree. Pages and pages of arguing with you guys that Racial Heritage does only what it says it does and nothing else. That possessing a tail is absolutely required for Tail Terror by RAW. A dev finally shows up and completely agrees with both of those statements but you guys just can't accept that you lost the argument. You have to go and drum up this kobold-aasimar argument which uses the exact same faulty reasoning that led to your incorrect conclusions about Racial Heritage/Tail Terror.

Doomed Hero wrote:
if this ever comes up in a game I run I'm going to say "sure, why not."
Which no one has denied your right to do.
But the arguement against is based on humans not having tails and nothing ever granting them one. A pure Kobold's tail is only mentioned in its descriptive text, we take that as the RAW proof that Kobolds have tails. Now we look at the Asimar-Kobold, they have some lee way but otherwise look just like other Kobolds, meaning their descriptive text should follow the mold of a baseline Kobold. That means a tail is now expected rather than just possible. It has the exact same anchor in RAW as any other Kobold. By RAW you still need Scion Of Humanity and Racial Heritage to count as a Kobold for the feat but just for being the variant Aasimar you have the exact same kind of tail and useage of that tail once you take the feat. (As a side point, i'd go for a metalic scaled Kobold with a halo to drive home the "Not evil mook" thing to the unwise.)
Once again as has been stated. It isn't a matter of how many feats are required or whether it is overpowered. Aasimar-Kobold does NOT have the same RAW that the Kobold does because the Kobold descriptive text never says they have only a cosmetic tail. It says they actually have a fully functioning tail. The text of non-human Aasimars specifically says everything other than size is merely cosmetic this would include the tail. They are...

I dont follow, a Kobold's tail only exists in the race description, an Aasimar-Kobold is to mostly match a pure blood Kobold's description (to the point that most would not be able to tell the difference between them) so that would seem to establish they have the same Kobold tail by description. Onto to the rest of the rules that support the tail: nothing. There is no Racial Trait, Race Trait, Race Feat, RP cost or any other associated rule to a Kobold, or anything that by description looks just like a Kobold, to establish a tail. The two are perfectly identical in having non functioning tails that can be used to convey emotions. So long as they both count as Kobold, either by race or feat, and they both now have tails firmly rooted in the by the book racial description, they may both take advantage of Tail Terror. This satisfies feats by RAW and the RAI as put out by our friendly neighborhood Anti-Paladin.


*sigh*

Racial Heritage doesn't grant a tail.
Tail Terror doesn't grant a tail.
But any race that doesn't normally have a tail, but achieves "count as a Kobold for feats" by any means, isn't prohibited from taking Tail Terror as they meet all the prerequisites. But, just as a person with Rapid Shot but no ranged weapon or Weapon Focus (Longsword) but no longsword, they cannot utilize it unless they gain a tail by some other means. This could be via a Monkey Belt or any other process.
A Kobold-Aasimar would have a tail. Being cosmetic is a moot point because even a full Kobold's tail is cosmetic in nature; but sometimes cosmetics can have mechanical value as with Tail Terror.
Therefore, a Kobold-Aasimar who, by any means, gains the ability to "count as a Kobold" can use their tail with Tail Terror. If they lose said tail, they can no longer make tail slaps until it has been replaced.
Super... simple... stuff.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

+1 for cherry picking

"...Logic will eventually have to suffice. If the feat allows you to do something with your tail, and you have no tail, the assumption that it grants you a tail is stretching. At the same time any home GM can easily come in and say that you have a tail, if it fits your character concept and her story.

In summary, when we write the rules, we do intend a level of reason and even common sense. We have to, because instead of making things "air-tight." Personally I believe, and have always believed, that one of the benefits of tabletop RPGs is to allow the mind and the imagination to breathe. Often we don't feel we need to codify such things in rules, because the logic is (we suppose) easily apprehended by the mind and the common sense of it is pleasing to the imagination...."

'If' there is room for 'Stretching' (as Stephen has said above) then there is room for doubt. If a rule is open to interpretation then it's not an absolute, relying on 'common sense' would imply that all of us on the boards have this....

So, until it's FAQ'd and official and if this is allowed in PFSOP I would have no option to exclude someone bringing a PC with this combination to the table. That 'stretch' or gap make it legal and RAW.

Now, I don't feel the choice of tail is optimal or game-breaking, but I can't consider/calculate the impact across the society of other similar choices/feat/trait combos.

As for the guff about what other peoples PC's look like? No-one here would have a clue. Appearance is hand-waived most of the time after the initial description and introduction unless there is something particularly striking about the character.

One of my PC's has a tail she hides under skirt with a discrete slit if she requires it... I have played through modules where none of the other players at the table would have noticed as it didn't come up in gameplay. Others have light scaling, others have tattoos and another a bite attack...

Perhaps this a great time for people to stop worrying what's on other peoples character sheet and start playing the PC's in front of them.

Shadow Lodge

Kazaan wrote:

*sigh*

Racial Heritage doesn't grant a tail.
Tail Terror doesn't grant a tail.
But any race that doesn't normally have a tail, but achieves "count as a Kobold for feats" by any means, isn't prohibited from taking Tail Terror as they meet all the prerequisites. But, just as a person with Rapid Shot but no ranged weapon or Weapon Focus (Longsword) but no longsword, they cannot utilize it unless they gain a tail by some other means. This could be via a Monkey Belt or any other process.
A Kobold-Aasimar would have a tail. Being cosmetic is a moot point because even a full Kobold's tail is cosmetic in nature; but sometimes cosmetics can have mechanical value as with Tail Terror.
Therefore, a Kobold-Aasimar who, by any means, gains the ability to "count as a Kobold" can use their tail with Tail Terror. If they lose said tail, they can no longer make tail slaps until it has been replaced.
Super... simple... stuff.

Wow, if RJGrady and Vargar Boarstusk(may have mispelled that) show up the gang will all be here. All of the same people who were wrong about Racial Heritage / Tail Terror will have jumped back in on the new argument.

You are all here making the same debunked claim over and over again, i.e. that the description of a kobold having a tail is just fluff. It is NOT just fluff, aka cosmetic. It has an actual mechanical effect/benefit just like any other limb.

In this case, however, the rules specifically state that any features gained, other than size, are purely fluff. It does this so that there is no question that while you can for roleplay purposes say your character looks like such and such a race, e.g. kobold, you cannot use those apparent features for any game effect. It is this that you are specifically trying your darndest to circumvent.


PatientWolf wrote:
Kazaan wrote:

*sigh*

Racial Heritage doesn't grant a tail.
Tail Terror doesn't grant a tail.
But any race that doesn't normally have a tail, but achieves "count as a Kobold for feats" by any means, isn't prohibited from taking Tail Terror as they meet all the prerequisites. But, just as a person with Rapid Shot but no ranged weapon or Weapon Focus (Longsword) but no longsword, they cannot utilize it unless they gain a tail by some other means. This could be via a Monkey Belt or any other process.
A Kobold-Aasimar would have a tail. Being cosmetic is a moot point because even a full Kobold's tail is cosmetic in nature; but sometimes cosmetics can have mechanical value as with Tail Terror.
Therefore, a Kobold-Aasimar who, by any means, gains the ability to "count as a Kobold" can use their tail with Tail Terror. If they lose said tail, they can no longer make tail slaps until it has been replaced.
Super... simple... stuff.

Wow, if RJGrady and Vargar Boarstusk(may have mispelled that) show up the gang will all be here. All of the same people who were wrong about Racial Heritage / Tail Terror will have jumped back in on the new argument.

You are all here making the same debunked claim over and over again, i.e. that the description of a kobold having a tail is just fluff. It is NOT just fluff, aka cosmetic. It has an actual mechanical effect/benefit just like any other limb.

In this case, however, the rules specifically state that any features gained, other than size, are purely fluff. It does this so that there is no question that while you can for roleplay purposes say your character looks like such and such a race, e.g. kobold, you cannot use those apparent features for any game effect. It is this that you are specifically trying your darndest to circumvent.

This is nothing more than stating the rules as they exist and in accordance with the most recent developer comments. Kobolds have tails. This is explained in the racial description rules. There is exactly one feat that modifies that tail and allows it to have one mechanical effect. A kobold aasimar has racial description rules that states the have a tail, that is, they look just like a kobold. If they can somehow count as a kobold they then meet the written prerequisite for tail terror and have the exact same kobold tail to use it with.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I do not have the relevent book and the blurb in D20SRD is different than the one I seen in the PFSRD. Basically, you have the same stats but play as what I call the "Host" race, as that is how you were raised. There was a part that said the character loses the human part of the equation in favor of the non-human race, but I can not find it now.

To be super precise, you could take the Scion alternative trait and then the Racial Heritage with the Tail Terror feat, but if I was GM, I would have the Scion be use to get the "host" race instead of Human and a Kobold version would already qualify for the Tail Terror feat.

Keep in mind, however, that this version of the Aasimar is a DM approval baby. Having looked at the Additional Resources for PFS, for those of us that play there, it is not included in legal play. (indeed, this is even pointed out for the Tiefling right below in it's own companion book)

There is also some flavor about non-human Aasimar being born out from a union between celestials and the race in question, and that most, if not all, are sterile and unable to reproduce. Human are still the only ones that can produce Aasimar naturally.

At any rate, now we know that humans don't have tails. I am so glad we are past that particular point.

Shadow Lodge

Torbyne wrote:
PatientWolf wrote:
Kazaan wrote:

*sigh*

Racial Heritage doesn't grant a tail.
Tail Terror doesn't grant a tail.
But any race that doesn't normally have a tail, but achieves "count as a Kobold for feats" by any means, isn't prohibited from taking Tail Terror as they meet all the prerequisites. But, just as a person with Rapid Shot but no ranged weapon or Weapon Focus (Longsword) but no longsword, they cannot utilize it unless they gain a tail by some other means. This could be via a Monkey Belt or any other process.
A Kobold-Aasimar would have a tail. Being cosmetic is a moot point because even a full Kobold's tail is cosmetic in nature; but sometimes cosmetics can have mechanical value as with Tail Terror.
Therefore, a Kobold-Aasimar who, by any means, gains the ability to "count as a Kobold" can use their tail with Tail Terror. If they lose said tail, they can no longer make tail slaps until it has been replaced.
Super... simple... stuff.

Wow, if RJGrady and Vargar Boarstusk(may have mispelled that) show up the gang will all be here. All of the same people who were wrong about Racial Heritage / Tail Terror will have jumped back in on the new argument.

You are all here making the same debunked claim over and over again, i.e. that the description of a kobold having a tail is just fluff. It is NOT just fluff, aka cosmetic. It has an actual mechanical effect/benefit just like any other limb.

In this case, however, the rules specifically state that any features gained, other than size, are purely fluff. It does this so that there is no question that while you can for roleplay purposes say your character looks like such and such a race, e.g. kobold, you cannot use those apparent features for any game effect. It is this that you are specifically trying your darndest to circumvent.

This is nothing more than stating the rules as they exist and in accordance with the most recent developer comments. Kobolds have tails. This is explained in the racial description...

No, this is trying to ignore explicit statements in the rules. In this particular case the tail you have doesn't count because the rules explicitly say it doesn't. If the rules didn't say that the features of the race were purely cosmetic then you would have a case but since they make that distinction you don't.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Actually, I would agree that a Kobold Aasimar would qualify. My real question is whether or not the alternative traits would have a different effect on non-human Aasimar, as they were, themselves, written for the more common Human centric Aasimar. (precisely, if Scion would change race along with the character)


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
thaX wrote:
At any rate, now we know that humans don't have tails. I am so glad we are past that particular point.

Some humans in Real Life do have tails... and webbed feat... and scaly skin... and long fingernails... extra fingers and toes... others have horns, mechanical hips, artificial hearts and limbs and even more have forked tongues.

It doesn't matter what percentage of our race IRL has these changes, they exist. If you struggle with this fact, it's no wonder you are challenged by Golarion where the dead can rise to talk again (undead) or that fire itself can have form and intelligence (fire elemental).


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PatientWolf wrote:
Wow, if RJGrady and Vargar Boarstusk(may have mispelled that) show up the gang will all be here. All of the same people who were wrong about Racial Heritage / Tail Terror will have jumped back in on the new argument.

What thread have you been reading? I'm on record as stating that Tail Terror doesn't grant a tail. I'm on record as saying that, while it could be feasible for Racial Heritage to grant a tail if you declared it as part of your initial description, it won't grant one retroactively upon taking it. Both of these statements were confirmed by a designer. Kobolds having a tail is a matter of fluff because there's no "Tail" racial feature listed as crunch for Kobolds. But that fluff can be "activated" as it were to become a mechanical feature through the Tail Terror. Likewise, a Kobold-heritage Aasimar will have the same fluff-based tail that a Kobold has. If such an Aasimar were to get a hold of the Tail Terror feat, his fluff tail would similarly be "activated" as a mechanical feature by the feat. But to argue that a character that has a tail and takes a feat that says you can make a tail slap attack with your tail can't make said tail slap because his "tail" is fluff by virtue of him being an Aasimar... is ludicrous on the face of it. That statement is to prevent people from saying their Elf-descended Aasimar has inherent Low-Light Vision or qualifies as an Elf without the associated Scion of Elf-kind racial trait. But even an Aasimar descended from Elf with Scion of Elf-kind wouldn't have Low-Light Vision. That's what it means when it distinguishes fluff from non-fluff. It is not referring to an Aasimar Scion of Scaly-kind not being able to use the Tail they obviously have to make a tail attack via Tail Terror because it's only a hypothetical, fluff-based tail due to them being an Aasimar and not actually a Kobold. To think so is to absolutely piss on the presumption of logic and common sense that Stephen brought up at the end of his post, and that SKR has brought up numerous times in the past.

So, to go back to the original topic of the thread, a Half-Orc who takes Racial Heritage to qualify as a Kobold can take Tail Terror, but won't spontaneously sprout a tail. He'll either have to have a pre-declared tail from character creation (a matter to hammer out with the GM, but which no reasonable GM should dismiss out of hand), or provide his own tail by other means (ie. Monkey Belt) which is less subject to hammering out due to the mechanical nature of such. Likewise, a Scion of Scaly-Kind Aasimar will automatically have a tail because he is, morphologically speaking, a Kobold. He can use that tail via Tail Terror just as he could use the tail from a Monkey Belt. Super... Simple... Stuff.

Shadow Lodge

Kazaan wrote:
PatientWolf wrote:
Wow, if RJGrady and Vargar Boarstusk(may have mispelled that) show up the gang will all be here. All of the same people who were wrong about Racial Heritage / Tail Terror will have jumped back in on the new argument.
What thread have you been reading? I'm on record as stating that Tail Terror doesn't grant a tail. I'm on record as saying that, while it could be feasible for Racial Heritage to grant a tail if you declared it as part of your initial description, it won't grant one retroactively upon taking it. Both of these statements were confirmed by a designer. Kobolds having a tail is a matter of fluff because there's no "Tail" racial feature listed as crunch for Kobolds. But that fluff can be "activated" as it were to become a mechanical feature through the Tail Terror. Likewise, a Kobold-heritage Aasimar will have the same fluff-based tail that a Kobold has. If such an Aasimar were to get a hold of the Tail Terror feat, his fluff tail would similarly be "activated" as a mechanical feature by the feat. But to argue that a character that has a tail and takes a feat that says you can make a tail slap attack with your tail can't make said tail slap because his "tail" is fluff by virtue of him being an Aasimar... is ludicrous on the face of it. That statement is to prevent people from saying their Elf-descended Aasimar has inherent Low-Light Vision or qualifies as an Elf without the associated Scion of Elf-kind racial trait. But even an Aasimar descended from Elf with Scion of Elf-kind wouldn't have Low-Light Vision. That's what it means when it distinguishes fluff from non-fluff. It is not referring to an Aasimar Scion of Scaly-kind not being able to use the Tail they obviously have to make a tail attack via Tail Terror because it's only a hypothetical, fluff-based tail due to them being an Aasimar and not actually a Kobold. To think so is to absolutely piss on the presumption of logic and common sense that Stephen brought up at...

When you start referencing traits such as "Scion of Scalykind" and "Scion of Elf" which don't even exist your whole argument moot. The whole argument with racial heritage and humans not having a tail is that the physical descriptions of creatures and races are NOT just fluff and cosmetics. Thus you can't just for role playing purposes declare you have a tail if your race description doesn't explicity state you have one.

However, the text in Blood of Angels explicitly says that non-human Aasimars are a special case and that, other than size, all racial features and abilities are just cosmetic. If such features already were purely cosmetic until a feat made them otherwise this part would not be needed in the text.


PatientWolf wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
PatientWolf wrote:
Wow, if RJGrady and Vargar Boarstusk(may have mispelled that) show up the gang will all be here. All of the same people who were wrong about Racial Heritage / Tail Terror will have jumped back in on the new argument.
What thread have you been reading? I'm on record as stating that Tail Terror doesn't grant a tail. I'm on record as saying that, while it could be feasible for Racial Heritage to grant a tail if you declared it as part of your initial description, it won't grant one retroactively upon taking it. Both of these statements were confirmed by a designer. Kobolds having a tail is a matter of fluff because there's no "Tail" racial feature listed as crunch for Kobolds. But that fluff can be "activated" as it were to become a mechanical feature through the Tail Terror. Likewise, a Kobold-heritage Aasimar will have the same fluff-based tail that a Kobold has. If such an Aasimar were to get a hold of the Tail Terror feat, his fluff tail would similarly be "activated" as a mechanical feature by the feat. But to argue that a character that has a tail and takes a feat that says you can make a tail slap attack with your tail can't make said tail slap because his "tail" is fluff by virtue of him being an Aasimar... is ludicrous on the face of it. That statement is to prevent people from saying their Elf-descended Aasimar has inherent Low-Light Vision or qualifies as an Elf without the associated Scion of Elf-kind racial trait. But even an Aasimar descended from Elf with Scion of Elf-kind wouldn't have Low-Light Vision. That's what it means when it distinguishes fluff from non-fluff. It is not referring to an Aasimar Scion of Scaly-kind not being able to use the Tail they obviously have to make a tail attack via Tail Terror because it's only a hypothetical, fluff-based tail due to them being an Aasimar and not actually a Kobold. To think so is to absolutely piss on the presumption of logic and common sense
...

What the dev comment clarified was racial heritage does not grant a tail and that tail terror does not grant a tail but any race with a tail, even if just mentioned in the race description, that qualifies for tail terror can then use their tail with the feat. How does the kobold aasimar not have a tail?


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"Oh no, our corner case has been defeated. Let's search for an even more outlandish corner case!"


Kryptik wrote:
"Oh no, our corner case has been defeated. Let's search for an even more outlandish corner case!"

Yeah sure, or alternate way of looking at it, find a way to play the character you'd like to that works within the rules.


@PatientWolf: I use Scion of Scaly-kind and Scion of Elf-kind because it's more concise than saying "Scion of Humanity, but replacing the Human subtype with the subtype applicable to the parent race". Common sense should tell you precisely what I was referring and the terminology I used to illustrate it in no way contradicts my point. Anyone who bothers to read what I actually wrote, instead of seeing small bits they fail to comprehend and dismissing the entire thing (or worse, deliberately misinterpreting it), wouldn't have replied in such a manner.

I'll get you started... it's ridiculous to think that an Aasimar of Kobold parentage would qualify as a Human due to Scion of Humanity. So, quite obviously, if you are using the alternate parentage rules, Scion of Humanity does something different for your character, rather than have you count as Human. Logic dictates it would have you count as the race of your parents. At that point, it's silly and can be confusing to continue to refer to it as Scion of "Humanity" so, as a convention for ease of understanding, you'd refer to it as Scion of Foo-kind.

Shadow Lodge

Kazaan wrote:

@PatientWolf: I use Scion of Scaly-kind and Scion of Elf-kind because it's more concise than saying "Scion of Humanity, but replacing the Human subtype with the subtype applicable to the parent race". Common sense should tell you precisely what I was referring and the terminology I used to illustrate it in no way contradicts my point. Anyone who bothers to read what I actually wrote, instead of seeing small bits they fail to comprehend and dismissing the entire thing (or worse, deliberately misinterpreting it), wouldn't have replied in such a manner.

I'll get you started... it's ridiculous to think that an Aasimar of Kobold parentage would qualify as a Human due to Scion of Humanity. So, quite obviously, if you are using the alternate parentage rules, Scion of Humanity does something different for your character, rather than have you count as Human. Logic dictates it would have you count as the race of your parents. At that point, it's silly and can be confusing to continue to refer to it as Scion of "Humanity" so, as a convention for ease of understanding, you'd refer to it as Scion of Foo-kind.

I knew exactly what you were referring to and why you were using those terms. However, they are not RAW. RAW doesn't allow you to just replace human with Elf, Kobold or whatever. That falls in the realm of houseruling. Blood of Angels does contain several alternate traits depending up on the type of Celestial you are descended from so I am sure if they wanted to alter the "Scion of" alternate trait they could have done so but they didn't. So by RAW we are stuck with Scion of Humanity period.

I did read your entire post but given that it was entirely predicated on how it would make sense for the combination to work with alternate scion traits and those fall entirely within houserules then your entire argument falls into the realm of houserules and is completely invalid for determining RAW.


PatientWolf wrote:
Kazaan wrote:

@PatientWolf: I use Scion of Scaly-kind and Scion of Elf-kind because it's more concise than saying "Scion of Humanity, but replacing the Human subtype with the subtype applicable to the parent race". Common sense should tell you precisely what I was referring and the terminology I used to illustrate it in no way contradicts my point. Anyone who bothers to read what I actually wrote, instead of seeing small bits they fail to comprehend and dismissing the entire thing (or worse, deliberately misinterpreting it), wouldn't have replied in such a manner.

I'll get you started... it's ridiculous to think that an Aasimar of Kobold parentage would qualify as a Human due to Scion of Humanity. So, quite obviously, if you are using the alternate parentage rules, Scion of Humanity does something different for your character, rather than have you count as Human. Logic dictates it would have you count as the race of your parents. At that point, it's silly and can be confusing to continue to refer to it as Scion of "Humanity" so, as a convention for ease of understanding, you'd refer to it as Scion of Foo-kind.

I knew exactly what you were referring to and why you were using those terms. However, they are not RAW. RAW doesn't allow you to just replace human with Elf, Kobold or whatever. That falls in the realm of houseruling. Blood of Angels does contain several alternate traits depending up on the type of Celestial you are descended from so I am sure if they wanted to alter the "Scion of" alternate trait they could have done so but they didn't. So by RAW we are stuck with Scion of Humanity period.

I did read your entire post but given that it was entirely predicated on how it would make sense for the combination to work with alternate scion traits and those fall entirely within houserules then your entire argument falls into the realm of houserules and is completely invalid for determining RAW.

But even if you discount his really good idea, the rules still allow you to play a kobold aasimar with scion of humanity and pick up tail terror. Bit now you are a tailed race so you can actually attack. It is more feats than just playing a pure kobold but you don't have the -4 strength.


PatientWolf wrote:
I did read your entire post but given that it was entirely predicated on how it would make sense for the combination to work with alternate scion traits and those fall entirely within houserules then your entire argument falls into the realm of houserules and is completely invalid for determining RAW.

- 17 hours earlier -

Kazaan wrote:
Likewise, a Kobold-heritage Aasimar will have the same fluff-based tail that a Kobold has. If such an Aasimar were to get a hold of the Tail Terror feat, his fluff tail would similarly be "activated" as a mechanical feature by the feat.

Where, precisely, do I predicate my argument on alternate scion traits? They were given as examples to illustrate how such a thing could happen... but it seems you haven't properly used the word predicate.


Kazaan wrote:
PatientWolf wrote:
I did read your entire post but given that it was entirely predicated on how it would make sense for the combination to work with alternate scion traits and those fall entirely within houserules then your entire argument falls into the realm of houserules and is completely invalid for determining RAW.

- 17 hours earlier -

Kazaan wrote:
Likewise, a Kobold-heritage Aasimar will have the same fluff-based tail that a Kobold has. If such an Aasimar were to get a hold of the Tail Terror feat, his fluff tail would similarly be "activated" as a mechanical feature by the feat.

Where, precisely, do I predicate my argument on alternate scion traits? They were given as examples to illustrate how such a thing could happen... but it seems you haven't properly used the word predicate.

Unfortunately, the combination doesn't work without the (non-existent) "alternate" Scion trait or Racial Heritage, since Tail Terror can only be taken by kobolds, not Aasimar who look like kobolds.


el cuervo wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
PatientWolf wrote:
I did read your entire post but given that it was entirely predicated on how it would make sense for the combination to work with alternate scion traits and those fall entirely within houserules then your entire argument falls into the realm of houserules and is completely invalid for determining RAW.

- 17 hours earlier -

Kazaan wrote:
Likewise, a Kobold-heritage Aasimar will have the same fluff-based tail that a Kobold has. If such an Aasimar were to get a hold of the Tail Terror feat, his fluff tail would similarly be "activated" as a mechanical feature by the feat.

Where, precisely, do I predicate my argument on alternate scion traits? They were given as examples to illustrate how such a thing could happen... but it seems you haven't properly used the word predicate.

Unfortunately, the combination doesn't work without the (non-existent) "alternate" Scion trait or Racial Heritage, since Tail Terror can only be taken by kobolds, not Aasimar who look like kobolds.

Or a kobold aasimar with scion of humanity an racial heritage kobold. It is very backwards but currently does work.


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Torbyne wrote:
el cuervo wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
PatientWolf wrote:
I did read your entire post but given that it was entirely predicated on how it would make sense for the combination to work with alternate scion traits and those fall entirely within houserules then your entire argument falls into the realm of houserules and is completely invalid for determining RAW.

- 17 hours earlier -

Kazaan wrote:
Likewise, a Kobold-heritage Aasimar will have the same fluff-based tail that a Kobold has. If such an Aasimar were to get a hold of the Tail Terror feat, his fluff tail would similarly be "activated" as a mechanical feature by the feat.

Where, precisely, do I predicate my argument on alternate scion traits? They were given as examples to illustrate how such a thing could happen... but it seems you haven't properly used the word predicate.

Unfortunately, the combination doesn't work without the (non-existent) "alternate" Scion trait or Racial Heritage, since Tail Terror can only be taken by kobolds, not Aasimar who look like kobolds.
Or a kobold aasimar with scion of humanity an racial heritage kobold. It is very backwards but currently does work.

That's not going to work, for two reasons:

d20PFSRD wrote:

Alternate Racial Traits

The following alternate racial traits may be selected in place of one or more of the standard racial traits above. Consult your GM before selecting any of these new options.

Emphasis mine.

d20PFSRD wrote:
Scion of Humanity Some aasimars' heavenly ancestry is extremely distant. An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids. She can pass for human without using the Disguise skill. This racial trait replaces the Celestial language and alters the native subtype.

Emphasis mine.

Scion of Humanity makes you more HUMAN. It is an alternative trait for Aasimar, operating on the assumption you are playing as the base aasimar race, which appears as a celestial human. We just got done discussing with a designer that some modicum of common sense is expected, so please, don't even go there. If you take Scion of Humanity it is expected, nay, required that you appear as a human, not a kobold.

Shadow Lodge

Right now this argument is hinging on the assertion that the physical descriptions of creatures are just fluff, i.e. cosmetic, in the first place and that Tail Terror allows you to take a cosmetic feature and use it for a mechanical benefit. So let me lay out my reasoning for arguing that the physical descriptions of creatures are NOT just fluff or cosmetic.

1) Physical features from noses to tails almost always have mechanical impact even in the absence of a feat. For example, it is important mechanically whether a creature is described as having a head or not.

2) Creatures are often able to use physical features for a mechanical benefit without having a feat of some sort that says they can do so. For example, creatures with wings usually have a fly speed without a feat giving it to them. It is a mechanical benefit from having the appropriate and appropriately sized limbs as indicated in their physical description.

So in order to show that the description of Kobolds having tails is just fluff anyway and Tail Terror just augments that fluff you will need either a Dev comment or a official rules reference explicitly stating that such features are entirely cosmetic.

My argument is that tails are not normally just fluff and that Tail Terror allows you a mechanical benefit with a mechanical feature, i.e. a tail. non-human Aasimar physical features other than size, however, are called out explicitly to be cosmetic and not mechanical. In other words you can say "Yeah I am an Aasimar that looks like a Kobold" but when there are any mechanical questions as to what you can or cannot do, except for size, you are treated exactly as a human Aasimar.


PatientWolf, I agree that you would not be able use this combination of feats and abilities but not for the same reason. You're being unnecessarily pedantic about the wording. Taking that entire paragraph into account:

d20PFSRD wrote:
Non-human aasimars have the same statistics as human aasimars with the exception of size. Thus a halfling aasimar is Small but otherwise possesses the same statistics and abilities as a human aasimar—the difference is purely cosmetic. Non-human aasimars do not possess any of the racial abilities of their base race. However, they are usually raised in the same cultural context as other members of their base race, and thus generally adopt the same fighting style as their peers, use the same types of weapons and armor, and study the same skills.

A kobold's tail (or an aasimar-kobold's tail) is purely cosmetic until it gets Tail Terror, the same way a witch's hair is purely cosmetic until they have Prehensile Hair.

Either way, you could not qualify for Tail Terror as an aasimar-kobold because you can't take racial heritage and scion of humanity.

Although, since only humans can actually give birth to true blooded aasimar, aasimar-kobold would actually be HALF KOBOLD, so maybe there is room to just play as an aasimar-kobold and take Tail Terror without those two feats.

Then again, if you want a tail attack so badly, why not just play a **** kobold?!


el cuervo wrote:

PatientWolf, I agree that you would not be able use this combination of feats and abilities but not for the same reason. You're being unnecessarily pedantic about the wording. Taking that entire paragraph into account:

d20PFSRD wrote:
Non-human aasimars have the same statistics as human aasimars with the exception of size. Thus a halfling aasimar is Small but otherwise possesses the same statistics and abilities as a human aasimar—the difference is purely cosmetic. Non-human aasimars do not possess any of the racial abilities of their base race. However, they are usually raised in the same cultural context as other members of their base race, and thus generally adopt the same fighting style as their peers, use the same types of weapons and armor, and study the same skills.

A kobold's tail (or an aasimar-kobold's tail) is purely cosmetic until it gets Tail Terror, the same way a witch's hair is purely cosmetic until they have Prehensile Hair.

Either way, you could not qualify for Tail Terror as an aasimar-kobold because you can't take racial heritage and scion of humanity.

Although, since only humans can actually give birth to true blooded aasimar, aasimar-kobold would actually be HALF KOBOLD, so maybe there is room to just play as an aasimar-kobold and take Tail Terror without those two feats.

Then again, if you want a tail attack so badly, why not just play a **** kobold?!

Strength penalty. Actually, aside from small sized aasimar I don't think there are any small sized races without a strength penalty, are there?

Shadow Lodge

el cuervo wrote:

PatientWolf, I agree that you would not be able use this combination of feats and abilities but not for the same reason. You're being unnecessarily pedantic about the wording. Taking that entire paragraph into account:

d20PFSRD wrote:
Non-human aasimars have the same statistics as human aasimars with the exception of size. Thus a halfling aasimar is Small but otherwise possesses the same statistics and abilities as a human aasimar—the difference is purely cosmetic. Non-human aasimars do not possess any of the racial abilities of their base race. However, they are usually raised in the same cultural context as other members of their base race, and thus generally adopt the same fighting style as their peers, use the same types of weapons and armor, and study the same skills.

A kobold's tail (or an aasimar-kobold's tail) is purely cosmetic until it gets Tail Terror, the same way a witch's hair is purely cosmetic until they have Prehensile Hair.

Either way, you could not qualify for Tail Terror as an aasimar-kobold because you can't take racial heritage and scion of humanity.

Although, since only humans can actually give birth to true blooded aasimar, aasimar-kobold would actually be HALF KOBOLD, so maybe there is room to just play as an aasimar-kobold and take Tail Terror without those two feats.

Then again, if you want a tail attack so badly, why not just play a **** kobold?!

I don't think it is being overly pedantic to accept it for what it says. By RAW an kobold-Aasimar for all mechanical intents and purposes is just a small human-Aasimar.

To me it is ludicrous to compare limbs such as tails, wings, etc... and hair. Hair is not a limb and does not normally have a mechanical effect but does require some special ability to allow it. As I pointed out in my previous post tails, wings, and other limbs usually DO have mechanical effects in the absence of special feats or abilities. This is a false analogy,i.e. the fallacy of comparing unlike things.

The reason this all matters and isn't purely pedantic is that Doomed Hero was originally using the Kobold-Aasimar argument to undermine Stephan's ruling that Humans can take but not use Tail Terror. He was arguing that since a kobold-Aasimar has no mechanical difference from a human-Aasimar but is able to use Tail Terror that it is inconsistent for a human-Aasimar not to be able to use and thus it is inconsistent for a human not to be able to use it. By pedantically(as you put it)sticking to RAW that entire line of reasoning goes away.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I don't care what anyone says. My human aberrant bloodline sorcerer is making 15-foot touch attacks with his Agile Tongue feat. (Unlike Tail Terror, the Agile Tongue feat specifically states that you have a prehensile tongue.)

Shadow Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:
I don't care what anyone says. My human aberrant bloodline sorcerer is making 15-foot touch attacks with his Agile Tongue feat. (Unlike Tail Terror, the Agile Tongue feat specifically states that you have a prehensile tongue.)

I think I would also houserule that he is a huge hit with the ladies as well ;)

(Oh please let this turn into another grappling succubus thread! That was my favorite thread until it turned serious lol.)


el cuervo wrote:
Unfortunately, the combination doesn't work without the (non-existent) "alternate" Scion trait or Racial Heritage, since Tail Terror can only be taken by kobolds, not Aasimar who look like kobolds.

It was in response to a claim that, despite actually having a tail, a Kobold Aasimar who takes Tail Terror can't use that tail to make the tail slap because of the rule that non-Human Aasimar only take on the size of the non-Human race but benefit from no other racial properties. So there's already a presumption that, by some means, this Kobold Aasimar has taken Tail Terror. That could be by houseruling a Scion of Scalykind, it could be by a GM allowing them to take Scion of Humanity followed by Racial Heritage, or it could be by some other means. How it happens is inconsequential; but that's what PatientWolf has gotten all hung up on, thinking that the examples I provided for how it could come about were the foundation of my argument.

It still stands that a Kobold Aasimar has a tail because he's a Kobold Aasimar and that tail is just as valid for use with Tail Terror as a tail provided by any other means as no credible and valid counter-point has been brought to the table.


I think the major fallout is the misunderstanding of what you get for being the Kobold/Aasimar.

You're small. That's +1AC, +1Atk, -1CMB, +4 Stealth. Aside from that, you're stats, resistances, spell-like abilities, and skill bonuses (ie. +2Dep/Percep) are the same.

They look likem and count as, KOBOLDS. That means they have a tail (Kobolds have tails), and since they count at members of the Kobold race, that means they can take Tail Terror.

They dont get light-sensitivity as Kobolds do, nor do they take the Strength penalty.

The tail is purely cosmetic, it alone cant do anything other than wag just as if you were a kobold. Until you take the Tail Terror feat, in which case you have strengthened it for attack purposes.


PatientWolf wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I don't care what anyone says. My human aberrant bloodline sorcerer is making 15-foot touch attacks with his Agile Tongue feat. (Unlike Tail Terror, the Agile Tongue feat specifically states that you have a prehensile tongue.)

I think I would also houserule that he is a huge hit with the ladies as well ;)

(Oh please let this turn into another grappling succubus thread! That was my favorite thread until it turned serious lol.)

i lol'd.

Shadow Lodge

Neonpeekaboo wrote:

I think the major fallout is the misunderstanding of what you get for being the Kobold/Aasimar.

You're small. That's +1AC, +1Atk, -1CMB, +4 Stealth. Aside from that, you're stats, resistances, spell-like abilities, and skill bonuses (ie. +2Dep/Percep) are the same.

They look likem and count as, KOBOLDS. That means they have a tail (Kobolds have tails), and since they count at members of the Kobold race, that means they can take Tail Terror.

They dont get light-sensitivity as Kobolds do, nor do they take the Strength penalty.

The tail is purely cosmetic, it alone cant do anything other than wag just as if you were a kobold. Until you take the Tail Terror feat, in which case you have strengthened it for attack purposes.

You are making the exact same argument that Kazaan has made with exactly the same proof to back it up, i.e. zero. I've stated repeatedly above, with my reasoning for doing so, that a tail (as well as other limbs and appendages) is not purely cosmetic.

Also you state that they count as a Kobold. That is most certainly not true. Without Scion of Humanity even a human-Aasimar does not count as Human, they are Outsiders. There is no comparable "Scion of" trait for Kobolds so the only way by RAW for them to count as Kobolds is to take Scion of Humanity and then Racial Heritage(Kobold).

Shadow Lodge

Neonpeekaboo wrote:
PatientWolf wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I don't care what anyone says. My human aberrant bloodline sorcerer is making 15-foot touch attacks with his Agile Tongue feat. (Unlike Tail Terror, the Agile Tongue feat specifically states that you have a prehensile tongue.)

I think I would also houserule that he is a huge hit with the ladies as well ;)

(Oh please let this turn into another grappling succubus thread! That was my favorite thread until it turned serious lol.)

i lol'd.

Yeah you think tying a knot in a cherry stem is impressive. Just wait till you see what he can do!


PatientWolf wrote:
Kazaan wrote:


It still stands that a Kobold Aasimar has a tail because he's a Kobold Aasimar and that tail is just as valid for use with Tail Terror as a tail provided by any other means as no credible and valid counter-point has been brought to the table.

Two logical fallacies in one argument. First this is question begging because you are simply asserting what you are trying to prove. Second you attempt to shift the burden of proof claiming that someone must provide a counter-point to prove your assertion false though it is actually your burden to prove your assertion is true.

I have already provided evidence to support the claim that tails, wings and other limbs are not simply cosmetic features. They actually possess a mechanical impact and enable mechanical effects on their own even in the absence of special feats or abilities beyond just having the appendage. I have also shown that the text of non-human Aasimars explicitly calls out such features as being an exception to that rule.

I still see no developer statement or rules source for your claim other than your say so. You just keep repeating the assertion over and over. This is the same tactic used for the previous arguments on this topic which were finally proven false by Stephen's input.

False: The argument was already presented above, regarding the "crunch" that having a non-Human Aasimar restricts. Second, I already provided my evidence and rationale. You tried, but failed, to provide a valid counter-point sufficient to debunk it. If a race has wings and the mechanical means to fly with them, and you use that race as a basis for an Aasimar, you have the wings but lack the inherent ability to fly with them. But if you got an ability later that said that, if you have wings, you can use them to slow your fall, you can use this ability even though you have wings that don't serve for flight purposes. Likewise, for a Kobold-Aasimar, you have a tail and it's a tail like any other. It's not having the tail that gives you a tail slap attack, it's having the Tail Slap natural weapon that gives you a Tail Slap attack. Kobolds, by default, have a tail, but lack a Tail Slap attack. Tail Terror allows them to make a Tail Slap with their tail. It doesn't matter at that point whether they're a standard Kobold or a Kobold-Aasimar; they have a tail and they have an ability that lets them attack with that tail. No where does it say that a non-Human Aasimar lacks the limbs; it just lacks any inherent abilities given by the race in question to utilize those limbs. Getting the ability from a source other than "an inherent racial quality" is still valid and you haven't sufficiently demonstrated otherwise.

As for the developer statement that supports my claim...

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
This is entirely correct. I hate to say this folks, I really do, but we do expect and modicum of common sense when it comes to the finer points of rules adjudication. If your half-orc has kobold heritage, it does not mean it has a tail and can get the tail slap feat, unless your GM decides (for whatever reason) you have a tail.

My assertion: A Kobold-Aasimar has is born with the usual Kobold limbs, including a tail. It lacks any inherent racial abilities relevant to Kobolds because it's still an Aasimar. But Tail Terror isn't an inherent racial quality; it's a Feat that you must subsequently take. How you take the feat is entirely inconsequential; all that matters is that now you have a feat that lets you use a particular limb (which you have) for a particular purpose. Nothing states explicitly nor implicitly that you cannot use it for that purpose; ergo there's no logical reason to deny it. It's based in common sense and logical analysis.

Your assertion: A Kobold-Aasimar, while having a tail, isn't allowed to use it for anything, even it takes a subsequent feat not directly inherent to the race because the rules on non-Human Aasimar variants say you only gain the size and "appearance" but none of the functional racial abilities. While seemingly reasonable on the surface, you don't need to dig too far down to realize that "non-Human Aasimar only getting the size of the parent race, but none of the other abilities" is referring to things like low-light vision and other Racial traits that the parent race may possess inherently. Even a Human Aasimar doesn't get Human Racial traits like the bonus feat or the extra skill point. But that doesn't mean that a Kobold Aasimar doesn't have a tail and can't use their tail if he gets some other ability, not an in-born Racial trait but a separate feat that grants functionality.

Thus, your attempt to debunk my assertion falls on its face; it doesn't pass the hurdle of possessing a modicum of common sense, it over-generalizes the restrictions applied to non-Human Aasimar, and your only other counter-points against my position were based on trying to attack foundation principals that weren't actually foundation principals of my argument. In any logical debate, the stronger position is accepted as correct until new evidence that would call it into question comes to the fore. No such evidence has come to the fore and your argument can't even stand on its own. I don't know why you insist on causing trouble like this.


PatientWolf wrote:
Neonpeekaboo wrote:
PatientWolf wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I don't care what anyone says. My human aberrant bloodline sorcerer is making 15-foot touch attacks with his Agile Tongue feat. (Unlike Tail Terror, the Agile Tongue feat specifically states that you have a prehensile tongue.)

I think I would also houserule that he is a huge hit with the ladies as well ;)

(Oh please let this turn into another grappling succubus thread! That was my favorite thread until it turned serious lol.)

i lol'd.
Yeah you think tying a knot in a cherry stem is impressive. Just wait till you see what he can do!

LOL.

That's where the common sense comes in. If you're playing a non-human Aasimar, then it wouldn't be "Sion of Humanity" it would be the "Sion of Whatever". That's the rub.

Otherwise, yes.. You would have to take "Non-Human Aasimar"->Sion of Humanity->Racial Heritage(Kobold)->Tail Terror.. and you could have your tail attack because you look just like a Kobold, who also counts as human, kobold, and outsider(native)...

BUT.. that's a little too ridiculous. Why would a NON-HUMAN Aasimar be a Sion of Humanity?


Now, do keep in mind, as a non0human aasimar, he'd hain the size benefit.. but he would still have to take the 'Sion of' alternate trait in order to qualify for Tail Terror.


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Ravingdork wrote:
I don't care what anyone says. My human aberrant bloodline sorcerer is making 15-foot touch attacks with his Agile Tongue feat. (Unlike Tail Terror, the Agile Tongue feat specifically states that you have a prehensile tongue.)

Did you remember to Lunge?


Now... i know this isnt going to be popular but.... Lilend azata descended Aasimar... Serpentine tail is the otherworldly heritage aspect giving you away as an Aasimar? dont hate me too much? To be clear i am giving up on a tailed character for play, this is all theoretical now. Orc heritage human scion aasimar with claws, wings and bite is just easier to get signed off on.


Torbyne wrote:
Now... i know this isnt going to be popular but.... Lilend azata descended Aasimar... Serpentine tail is the otherworldly heritage aspect giving you away as an Aasimar? dont hate me too much? To be clear i am giving up on a tailed character for play, this is all theoretical now. Orc heritage human scion aasimar with claws, wings and bite is just easier to get signed off on.

You just squished my brain. I THOUGHT WE WERE COOL.


Neonpeekaboo wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Now... i know this isnt going to be popular but.... Lilend azata descended Aasimar... Serpentine tail is the otherworldly heritage aspect giving you away as an Aasimar? dont hate me too much? To be clear i am giving up on a tailed character for play, this is all theoretical now. Orc heritage human scion aasimar with claws, wings and bite is just easier to get signed off on.
You just squished my brain. I THOUGHT WE WERE COOL.

Again, no hit me, no! I give up on a tailed PC, i understand they are hated and immersion breaking. This is just a theory crafting exercise because this has gone on long enough to become interesting to me.

I solemnly swear i have no intention of ever showing up to PFS or any home game ever with a tailed character unless they are explicitly stated to come from a printed race with a clear description block calling out a tail.

That being said, Aasimar are supopsed to have physcail traits showing their outsider heritage and there is the Lillend...

Shadow Lodge

Neonpeekaboo wrote:
PatientWolf wrote:
Neonpeekaboo wrote:
PatientWolf wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I don't care what anyone says. My human aberrant bloodline sorcerer is making 15-foot touch attacks with his Agile Tongue feat. (Unlike Tail Terror, the Agile Tongue feat specifically states that you have a prehensile tongue.)

I think I would also houserule that he is a huge hit with the ladies as well ;)

(Oh please let this turn into another grappling succubus thread! That was my favorite thread until it turned serious lol.)

i lol'd.
Yeah you think tying a knot in a cherry stem is impressive. Just wait till you see what he can do!

LOL.

That's where the common sense comes in. If you're playing a non-human Aasimar, then it wouldn't be "Sion of Humanity" it would be the "Sion of Whatever". That's the rub.

Otherwise, yes.. You would have to take "Non-Human Aasimar"->Sion of Humanity->Racial Heritage(Kobold)->Tail Terror.. and you could have your tail attack because you look just like a Kobold, who also counts as human, kobold, and outsider(native)...

BUT.. that's a little too ridiculous. Why would a NON-HUMAN Aasimar be a Sion of Humanity?

It isn't necessarily common sense that there would be Scions of other races. Maybe for some reason Human is the only one that breeds true. That is why there aren't Half Dwarf/Half Orcs and Half Orc/Half Elves. For some reason Human bonds with anything and other races don't. So the common sense angle doesn't work since there are common sense reasons why those don't exist.

If they had wanted to include Scion traits for other races they could have done so or a simple side bar noting changes to that trait. So absent those by RAW you only have Scion of Humanity. I agree it doesn't make sense from a roleplay perspective why one of those races would take Scion of Humanity and I would not allow it but RAW it is legal.

Even could they take Scion of whatever it would still not solve the problem because the tail which they possess would still be explicitly deemed non-mechanical by RAW.

Shadow Lodge

Torbyne wrote:
Neonpeekaboo wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Now... i know this isnt going to be popular but.... Lilend azata descended Aasimar... Serpentine tail is the otherworldly heritage aspect giving you away as an Aasimar? dont hate me too much? To be clear i am giving up on a tailed character for play, this is all theoretical now. Orc heritage human scion aasimar with claws, wings and bite is just easier to get signed off on.
You just squished my brain. I THOUGHT WE WERE COOL.

Again, no hit me, no! I give up on a tailed PC, i understand they are hated and immersion breaking. This is just a theory crafting exercise because this has gone on long enough to become interesting to me.

I solemnly swear i have no intention of ever showing up to PFS or any home game ever with a tailed character unless they are explicitly stated to come from a printed race with a clear description block calling out a tail.

That being said, Aasimar are supopsed to have physcail traits showing their outsider heritage and there is the Lillend...

I got one for you. Aasimar with Scion of Humanity, Racial Heritage(Kobold) and the random Aasimar feature: Fox Tail. The fox tail feature gives you no abilities beyond your normal abilities. Taking the Tail Terror feat makes a tail slap one of your normal abilities, you have a fox tail which is finally a fully functional non-cosmetic tail, so you can now tail slap. Happy?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Are we trying to crack 1000 post just for fun? ;-)

Shadow Lodge

James Risner wrote:
Are we trying to crack 1000 post just for fun? ;-)

Sadly no. Some people just really, really, REALLY want to use Tail Terror without being a Kobold.


Quote:
Even could they take Scion of whatever it would still not solve the problem because the tail which they possess would still be explicitly deemed non-mechanical by RAW.

By RAW, any aasimar can get Tail Terror, whether through SoH->RH or an alternate SoH. That's immaterial because none of those abilities are what determine the presence of a tail. The issue is whether kobold-aasimar have tails.

You seem to believe that they do, but that the tail they possess is somehow unusable for Tail Terror, but I'm not clear why. Kobolds' tails are present by virtue of stated physical description, not a stat block entry, so there is no hard race feature to compare; only their physical description is in debate. The section on alternate aasimar says such brings are visually identical to their base race save for minor differences, of which some examples are provided.

I don't see how the text says that the tail a kobold-aasimar possesses is any different from the one a standard kobold does.

Shadow Lodge

Bizbag wrote:


You seem to believe that they do, but that the tail they possess is somehow unusable for Tail Terror, but I'm not clear why. Kobolds' tails are present by virtue of stated physical description, not a stat block entry, so there is no hard race feature to compare; only their physical description is in debate. The section on alternate aasimar says such brings are visually identical to their base race save for minor differences, of which some examples are provided.

I don't see how the text says that the tail a kobold-aasimar possesses is any different from the one a standard kobold does.

The issue is because in the book allowing for non-human Aasimars it explicitly states that all the features, except size, of the non-human race are purely for cosmetic effect. It is like having a permanent illusion making you look like a kobold but you are really just a really short human-aasimar for all mechanical purposes.

Blood of Angels wrote:
Non-human aasimars have the same statistics as humanaasimars with the exception of size. Thus a halfling aasimar is Small but otherwise possesses the same statistics and abilities as a human aasimar-the difference is purely cosmetic.


Bizbag wrote:
Quote:
Even could they take Scion of whatever it would still not solve the problem because the tail which they possess would still be explicitly deemed non-mechanical by RAW.

By RAW, any aasimar can get Tail Terror, whether through SoH->RH or an alternate SoH. That's immaterial because none of those abilities are what determine the presence of a tail. The issue is whether kobold-aasimar have tails.

You seem to believe that they do, but that the tail they possess is somehow unusable for Tail Terror, but I'm not clear why. Kobolds' tails are present by virtue of stated physical description, not a stat block entry, so there is no hard race feature to compare; only their physical description is in debate. The section on alternate aasimar says such brings are visually identical to their base race save for minor differences, of which some examples are provided.

I don't see how the text says that the tail a kobold-aasimar possesses is any different from the one a standard kobold does.

This was my point exactly. Though again, I will say that per aasimar race rules, ONLY HUMANS are capable of producing "full-blooded" aasimar. Any other race that produces an aasimar produces essentially a HALF-aasimar (with stats the same as a full blooded "human" aasimar, other than Size adjustments). I can produce the relevant text if anyone needs me to.

This means that a Kobold-Aasimar is actually half kobold, appears as a kobold, has a tail, and does not even need any other feats to take Tail Terror. But again, I beg the question, if you want a Tail Slap attack and want Tail Terror, why not just play as a **** kobold instead of complicating things so unnecessarily?


el cuervo wrote:
Bizbag wrote:
Quote:
Even could they take Scion of whatever it would still not solve the problem because the tail which they possess would still be explicitly deemed non-mechanical by RAW.

By RAW, any aasimar can get Tail Terror, whether through SoH->RH or an alternate SoH. That's immaterial because none of those abilities are what determine the presence of a tail. The issue is whether kobold-aasimar have tails.

You seem to believe that they do, but that the tail they possess is somehow unusable for Tail Terror, but I'm not clear why. Kobolds' tails are present by virtue of stated physical description, not a stat block entry, so there is no hard race feature to compare; only their physical description is in debate. The section on alternate aasimar says such brings are visually identical to their base race save for minor differences, of which some examples are provided.

I don't see how the text says that the tail a kobold-aasimar possesses is any different from the one a standard kobold does.

This was my point exactly. Though again, I will say that per aasimar race rules, ONLY HUMANS are capable of producing "full-blooded" aasimar. Any other race that produces an aasimar produces essentially a HALF-aasimar (with stats the same as a full blooded "human" aasimar, other than Size adjustments). I can produce the relevant text if anyone needs me to.

This means that a Kobold-Aasimar is actually half kobold, appears as a kobold, has a tail, and does not even need any other feats to take Tail Terror. But again, I beg the question, if you want a Tail Slap attack and want Tail Terror, why not just play as a **** kobold instead of complicating things so unnecessarily?

Becuase strength penalty is prohibitive for a martial character. Seriously, buy up to a 16 and then apply the racial -4, now you cant even get power attack until level four when you can get that all important 13 strength. Being small sized already costs you a die size on natural attacks.

Shadow Lodge

el cuervo wrote:

This was my point exactly. Though again, I will say that per aasimar race rules, ONLY HUMANS are capable of producing "full-blooded" aasimar. Any other race that produces an aasimar produces essentially a HALF-aasimar (with stats the same as a full blooded "human" aasimar, other than Size adjustments). I can produce the relevant text if anyone needs me to.

This means that a Kobold-Aasimar is actually half kobold, appears as a kobold, has a tail, and does not even need any other feats to take Tail Terror. But again, I beg the question, if you want a Tail Slap attack and want Tail Terror, why not just play as a **** kobold instead of complicating things so unnecessarily?

That isn't correct. That is exactly why they say that differences are purely cosmetic. Precisely because taking a kobold-Aasimar does NOT qualify you for kobold only feats. Taking a halfling-Aasimar does NOT qualify you for halfling feats. That is like saying all races except human get a Scion of trait built in without giving up Celestial as a language. That is a rip off for human aasimars.

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