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Eh someone has to be the first. The band wagon fallacy is not always right Tiemann square square guy can tell you that. So I am not too keen on that arguement.Dude,
Look around at some of the other threads. People disagree with each other about a LOT of stuff: handle animal rules, the importance of factions, con boons, cheetohs, dice rolling conventions, which way the toilet paper goes but you've got EVERYONE telling you you've gone too far.
When you get a herd of cats ALL moving away from you you know you've messed up.
Social acceptability for a voluntary collaboration is one of those things where the band wagon IS the standard. There is no other definition for what is unacceptable than the community.
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Dude,
Look around at some of the other threads. People disagree with each other about a LOT of stuff: handle animal rules, the importance of factions, con boons, cheetohs, dice rolling conventions, which way the toilet paper goes but you've got EVERYONE telling you you've gone too far.
When you get a herd of cats ALL moving away from you you know you've messed up.
So first off...one of my favorite quotes applies to this BNW. "The turnings of the tide of battle always begin with one soldier's decision to head back into the frey." The argument "because everyone says so" is one I only accept when "everyone" is paying me. Thankfully here, we are all volunteers...well, most of us.
Melfer is in my region, and is a solid store coordinator. Solid enough to take and run one of our bigger stores in the region that boasts 3 consistent tables. Considering the location and our PFS history with it, that is an accomplishment of praise worthiness.
I got this notice in the email for a friend saying "Hey Big K, stuff going down, go read it!" And I did. Now...the first thing that came to my mind when I read his post was the same assumptions many here made. That this individual was pushing the envelope, going beyond what is acceptable, and doing so in a stand off-ish manner.
But then I reminded myself...this person has taken the time to post a question to anonymous masses about a personnel choice of game style that they pursue. So their intention, at onset at least, is to seek advice.
Instead of assuming the worse from an anonymous volunteer (let's also remember, that if we are posting on this board...we probably volunteer our time to run games or expand the community in some way) over the internet involving a stereo-typed group of notoriously lacking of social graces, I sought to question and clarify the position of this individual.
Now it helps that I know them, they are from my region, and they are a coordinator I trust. I got Melfer on the phone and we talked about his intent with the post, the history of how the question came about, and why the responses he brought up were chosen.
Needless to say...a few more minutes thinking out the posts would of gone a long way in making this less of a hot button topic issue then it was. But...I am also going to point out to the community that made some assumptions, and turned negative rather quickly, instead of handling this in a positive manner.
Let me assuage some fears and assumptions.
1. Both character names are now changed.
2. Neither character ever saw any table play, ever.
3. The topic was posted when another coordinator mentioned they might be in violation of a Paizo rule.
4. The intent of the post was to locate any written rule regarding a morality clause in PFS, as to be familiar with it as a coordinator.
Obviously, a storm of internet assumption and poorly chosen words, and cackles combined with combative responses sent this thingy into a tail spin tizzy of tumultuous travesty.
What I would like to see people walk away from this post and thread is that we should assume every individual means well and is here to improve PFS. We should assume they are a volunteer, and treat them as such. We should ask question to clarify points that our natural instinct is to assume the negative connotation of their communicated point.
TLDR
This whole thread and events around it went down poorly. Is there a morality clause rule written down for PFS, if so where is it and what does it say? I'm a gamer, I enjoy pushing the colloquial envelope, but can someone please help me find it first?
Thanks!
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I don't see that the community did anything wrong, here, Kyle. The OP asked about PFS legality and didn't make it clear that these were not builds that were being used at public PFS events, and the community responded accordingly. They were also -- with few exceptions -- considerably more civil than I would have expected for this sort of potentially inflammatory topic.
Attacking the community for doing exactly what they were asked to do -- give their opinion on whether those names cross a line -- and doing so honestly and, for the most part, civilly, is not cool.
That the OP is a store coordinator is irrelevant to how the community responded.
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The turnings of the tide of battle always begin with one soldier's decision to head back into the frey."
If you're the ONLY one running back that's a pretty good indication its a bad idea for two reasons.
1) Everyone might be onto something and more importantly
2) The subjective perception on everyone's part that its a bad idea actually creates the objective reality that it IS a bad idea to run back.
Social acceptance is nothing BUT what everyone thinks it is. So if 100% of a normally contentious group of people that chimed in, including two staff members, say 'thats over the line' then I think that's the best possible indication that it is over the line, and arguing against that isn't going to help.
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If a futuristic printing press returns pseudo-sexual content within the first ten pages after someone searches for your character's name, profession, concept, or hobbies, then it is likely to be a bad idea.
Back in my day, people burned for this sort of stuff. Then again, I'm long dead and nobody tries to commune with me anymore and none of the other dead people will talk to me ever since the Aroden incident...
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I think the best practice with this kind of thing is to be adult about it. You don't need to be an adult to act like one -- just be mature in general. I grew up with a lot of coarse language (thanks, TV). When I got suspended for calling a kid a bad word a 4th grader shouldn't know, I learned real quick when that kind of language was appropriate. And I'm sure everyone else has had a similar experience.
Hanging with friends at home? Appropriate.
At work or school? Inappropriate.
Playing PFS? It depends.
I say that because every table of PFS happens in a different environment. There's a big difference between playing PFS at a convention or the front room of a family-friendly FLGS than at your house or in the backroom FLGS after-hours. I know that people in my area whip out that "late-night comedy" language and topics when it's one or two tables during Winter Break in a college town (i.e. there's no one around except post-college locals). While I'd agree that sort of material is inappropriate in a general sense when it PFS, not every table of PFS is the same. And, as the OP made clear, these games were taking place in a private environment (at least, I think they were...?)
We don't need, and I hope we don't want, to censor what people can say or how they can act as a participant of PFS. I hope that we, as a community, can be mature enough to realize that there are a plethora of different gaming situations that occur out there, and that, by and large, people make mature decisions. If my older players want to drop the F-bomb in the backroom Sunday night when the front door is locked, I'd say let them play on and enjoy the game.
I understand wanting to protect children from subject matter and language that they shouldn't be exposed too, but I think that if we all make rational decisions in how we handle ourself at tables, there won't be an issue. Heck, the music on the radio is more suggestive than Zarta missives from the earlier seasons -- and that's saying something!
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We don't need, and I hope we don't want, to censor what people can say or how they can act as a participant of PFS. I hope that we, as a community, can be mature enough to realize that there are a plethora of different gaming situations that occur out there, and that, by and large, people make mature decisions. If my older players want to drop the F-bomb in the backroom Sunday night when the front door is locked, I'd say let them play on and enjoy the game.
this is what I was wondering. it was obviously in poor taste and not appropriate for any environment. I was just concerned if it was actually against PFS rules. if I'm meeting for a game in a bar, I feel I should have a bit more leeway in what I can get away with when it comes to adult humour.
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this is what I was wondering. it was obviously in poor taste and not appropriate for any environment. I was just concerned if it was actually against PFS rules. if I'm meeting for a game in a bar, I feel I should have a bit more leeway in what I can get away with when it comes to adult humour.
We don't need, and I hope we don't want, to censor what people can say or how they can act as a participant of PFS. I hope that we, as a community, can be mature enough to realize that there are a plethora of different gaming situations that occur out there, and that, by and large, people make mature decisions. If my older players want to drop the F-bomb in the backroom Sunday night when the front door is locked, I'd say let them play on and enjoy the game.
This is the relevant text from the guide.
The leadership of this organized play community assumes that you will use common sense in your interpretation of the rules. This includes being courteous and encouraging a mutual interest in playing, not engaging in endless rules discussions. While you are enjoying the game, be considerate of the others at the table and don’t let your actions keep them from having a good time too. In short, don’t be a jerk.
I think that by following this (which it looks like you do by and large, from what I've seen of your responses here), you won't run into afoul of any PFS rules.
Personally, if I am presented with a table of new people, I tend to preface the game by asking if anyone minds if I am casually profane. Generally, no one objects, but I have had a few people tell me they'd prefer if I did not swear at the table. Knowing this, I moderate my speech at the table accordingly. I'd recommend asking a similar question as a player if you find yourself sitting with new people.
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Keep in mind, if you game in a public place, then you are representing that game to every non-gamer in the area.
This is a great point.
When you're at a table in a public space, you have to cater your language and themes to not only that table, but everyone else in earshot.
At PaizoCon this year, I think the only time I whipped out the adult language at a table was during Todd's 3am session of Rivalry's End that he was running in a sideroom for myself and other volunteers. And most of us had a beer in hand for it.
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Melf, we spoke on this privately too. Unsure if that was before or after this post, but I do hope you took what I said to heart in considering the changing of the names.
Home games, no problem. While there may not be any written black and white text stating these kind of things are good or bad for PFS, we have to remember that PFS is a community event and organization. We have people of all ages who come to play this game, from all walks of life. I think an easier way to ask this kind of question is; "If I go to a convention where no one from my area is playing PFS, how well would this name be received by those people there?"
If you even have a doubt of how easily someone might accept a name, the best idea is to step back and rethink the name. I personally have no problem with what you are trying to do; I see the joke in the name, and understand the idea (its Krusty the Klown, folks). But as a public facing group and community of gamers, we also need to think of the public at large who may not be involved with the joke, or even understand it.
Not attacking anyone here, but what I say kind of goes to everyone on these boards. Its very Bill and Ted in its execution; "Be excellent to each other."
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There is such a thing in publishing where developers and editors who use freelancers have to deal with writers who try to get easter eggs past the sensors. Some of this can be considered squicky.
That's when you get a veiled sexual or socially unacceptable perversion into print. Usually this is done out of some sophomoric immaturity were like "Beavis and Butthead" you laugh at anyone who says anything remotely like ass or boobies. "Heh heh heh, she said boobs! Heh heh heh!"
When I read the initial post, I rolled my eyes and said to myself, "really?"
Do you derive self satisfaction when you successfully make someone uncomfortably chuckle or roll their eyes at your antics? If so, I'd really do some self evaluation to see what need you have to be blatantly squicky. This isn't even an attempt to be veiled.
Another thing to look at is whether your choices are anachronistic or in synch with the campaign cannon. Your character concepts and names would derive as much derision from me as the WoW player who names his new level one DARKLORDOFTERROR.
How is a serious roleplayed supposed to take you seriously, when your concept is essentially an inside joke to yourself?
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Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD
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I appreciate the OP feelings however have to say I would not name any of my PC's those names, but thats my choice.
The issue I would point out is that you never know when someone will literally walk in, also you have religious beliefs, and just different upbringing, ie the name Herpes, is not just a word, it is an illness that people whom have suffer through, and I dunno if they would find it funny, and I doubt you would know everyones medical history who plays at your table.
PFS has one overarching hard rule that covers pretty much every social interaction issue in the campaign.
Don't Be A Jerk.
It's kinda vague, yes. Intentionally so. There are so many varied situations of what is or is not offensive, hurtful, or otherwise bad behavior that trying to precisely define and identify every single possible violation would be a monumental exercise in futility.
Worse, if you clearly define precisely what actions are verboten, there are those who will take the attitude that "whatever is not forbidden is allowed", and seek to use every missed loophole to violate the spirit of the rule while staying within the letter of the rule.
This isn't too different from most other businesses or other organizations who provisde venues for their customers or members to express themselves. They all have terms of use that boil down to "don't be a jerk" and none specifically define the exact behavior that would be forbidden.
-j
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The only thing I'm going to add to this conversation is this. I once had this exact same dilemma when I was working out a character concept shortly before I became a VO. No graphic name or anything, but it was an evangelist of Callistria who I had...well a certain vision of in my head. I was all psyched about the idea when I realized I could never play the character the way I was envisioning in public and I played PFS exclusively in public. So I scrapped the character before I played her.
I'd hope others do the same.
I'll take "Reasons Why I Am Embarrassed to Bring My Friends to PFS" for $500, Alex.
DAILY DOUBLE
You're "pimp" character on the other hand is problematic, not knowing of course what language you use at the table it feels like you are demonizing or belittling sex trade workers, and contributing to the use of negative language around female characters in a fantasy setting. The pimp trope renforces a gender hierarchy which I believe paizo and pathfinder are interested in moving away from. Sexist jokes are still sexist, even if you don't mean them to be.the character does not demonize sex workers or women. it's a mockery of the concept. he is a caricature of a bad stereotype. he's a gnome with a strength of 8. he runs his mouth (as a prankster with oratory performance) and antagonizes the bad guys with debuffs. he's not ACTUALLY a pimp. he thinks he is. he's actually rather pathetic. it's a flawed character with delusions of grandeur. he helps the party (he is a bard), but he is an utter failure at his "trade". I never said anything about being sexist or trivializing women. this character is also never played in a public setting. it is strictly used in PFS home games.
an example of his bardic performance:
"a pirate, history relates
was scuffling with some of his mates
when he slipped on a cutlass
which rendered him nutless
and practically useless on dates"
Try making a character instead of a caricature.
