Buckler Duelist: focused on falcata and buckler, but cant USE a falcata???


Rules Questions


OK, so, the Buckler Duelist Fighter archetype gains several abilities related to using a falcata and buckler. And ONLY a falcata and buckler. However, RAW states that the Buckler Duelist doesnt gain falcata proficiency, meaning in order to even use the archetype's special abilities you have to spend a feat on Exotic Proficiency just so he can use his signature weapon without penalty.
Is this intentional? Or an oversight? Should he gain proficiency with falcata as part of the archetype?


Ummm...can you link to this archetype you're referring to. I can't find one called Buckler Duelist.


The OP is correct. You need to spend a feat to gain proficiency. This is clearly intentional. The archetype even says so, it's the first listed feat under Suggested Feats:

Pathfinder Player Companion: Inner Sea Primer, Buckler Duelist wrote:
Suggested Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (falcata), Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Shield Slam, Shield Master, Duelist, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (falcata), Weapon Specialization (falcata).


Then first class ability that requires a falcatta is at 5th level.

By then, the fighter has gotten 6-7 feats, not even counting the other ways availabale to get an exotic weapon proficiency.

Besides, an archetype gives up something to get something else.

The buckler duelist already gives up bravery, armor trainong I, and weapon traing I.

What else is there to give up? (maybe lose heavy armor proficiency in exchange as a house rule?)


A Falcata is particularly deadly even as exotic weapon go (it has the base equivalent of a x5 Crit rating), so I wouldn't expect to receive it for free.


Quote:
What else is there to give up? (maybe lose heavy armor proficiency in exchange as a house rule?)

That's not really much of a penalty, since the archetype heavily encourages high Dexterity scores - 17, minimum - that the character is likely to use medium armors anyway.

Grand Lodge

It probally came out during the time they were making the APG, before they were like "Oh! We /can/ change proficiencies and skill lists."


Bizbag wrote:
A Falcata is particularly deadly even as exotic weapon go (it has the base equivalent of a x5 Crit rating), so I wouldn't expect to receive it for free.

19-20 x3. Where are you getting your x5 from?

It's a longsword with a crit multiplier enhanced by 1.

That being said, just use a feat to gain proficiency.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Spend 1500gp to get a Cracked White Opalescent Pyramid (pretty sure that's what it's called) Ioun Stone. It gives you Weapon Familiarity with one Exotic Weapon of your choice. There are better things to spend your feats on.


darkwarriorkarg wrote:
Bizbag wrote:
A Falcata is particularly deadly even as exotic weapon go (it has the base equivalent of a x5 Crit rating), so I wouldn't expect to receive it for free.

19-20 x3. Where are you getting your x5 from?

It's a longsword with a crit multiplier enhanced by 1.

That being said, just use a feat to gain proficiency.

Mathematically that is the best crit range/multiplier in the game.

A 20 x3 is the equivalent of a 19-20 x2 (Axe = Longsword)

A 20 x4 is the equivalent of a 18-20 x2 (scimitar = Sycthe).

A 19-20 x3 is the equivalent of a 20 x5 (Falcata = Nothing).


Nefreet wrote:
Spend 1500gp to get a Cracked White Opalescent Pyramid (pretty sure that's what it's called) Ioun Stone. It gives you Weapon Familiarity with one Exotic Weapon of your choice. There are better things to spend your feats on.

Never put your faith (or your proficiencies) in an ioun stone. Those things can get stolen.


Nefreet wrote:
Spend 1500gp to get a Cracked White Opalescent Pyramid (pretty sure that's what it's called) Ioun Stone. It gives you Weapon Familiarity with one Exotic Weapon of your choice. There are better things to spend your feats on.

Don't you need the perfect opalescent pyramid? The cracked one gives "weapon familiarity" - that's a racial ability, such as how elves have familiarity with longbows, shortbows, lonogswords, and rapiers. So, to get a weapon familiarity with Falcata, wouldn't you have to find a race that has that familiarity first? Is there a race that does?

Otherwise, you need Weapon Proficiency (falcata), which costs 10,000gp.

Or am I misunderstanding how the cracked version works?


Weapon Familiarity gives proficiency in martial weapons, and 'treat as martial' for exotic weapons. So a cracked version gives full proficiency to a character proficient in martial weapons. My Elf Barbarian has one for two-bladed sword.

I think it's opalescent sphere btw, but not positive.

In other news, Falcata is a ridiculous weapon.


darkwarriorkarg wrote:
Bizbag wrote:
A Falcata is particularly deadly even as exotic weapon go (it has the base equivalent of a x5 Crit rating), so I wouldn't expect to receive it for free.

19-20 x3. Where are you getting your x5 from?

It's a longsword with a crit multiplier enhanced by 1.

That being said, just use a feat to gain proficiency.

Because in this case, "total Crit potential" is multiplicative.

Over the course of 20 rolls, a Heavy Mace will get, essentially, one free hit due to a Crit (since getting a Crit is like hitting twice).

A longsword or battle axe will get two free hits; the sword critting on one more die result and the axe critting for two extra hits.

A Falcata gets four free hits- two die results and two extra hits when it does.

This is one of the few exotic weapons that results in a significant increase to your DPS - it's taking, in a sense, a fully stackable Improved Critical feat for a battle axe.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Bizbag wrote:
Over the course of 20 rolls, a Heavy Mace will get, essentially, one free hit due to a Crit (since getting a Crit is like hitting twice).

My one critique of this is that over the course of 20 rolls, with a 20 being x2 and a 1 always being a miss, you're still essentially only hitting 20 times.

I've noticed many DPS calculations don't account for natural 1s.

But other than that, everything else is sound.

Shadow Lodge

Linky for those who can't find it.

As to the OP:Dude, you are a fighter. You get like 11 bonus feats by nature of you being a fighter. So yeah, you now effectively get 10 feats by being a fighter because one must be spent on EWP[falcata]. Not seeing a huge problem here.


Spending a feat is fine, with my builds I often have a spare feat to drop somewhere anyway, I just found it odd that an archetype whose class features are built around a given weapon doesnt also get proficiency with it. I think thats the only archetype written that way.


Take the background trait that gives you proficiency and a mwk weapon and get a falcata to start,I cant remember what is was called right now heirloom weapon or something similar.


Thefuzzy1 wrote:
Take the background trait that gives you proficiency and a mwk weapon and get a falcata to start,I cant remember what is was called right now heirloom weapon or something similar.

Your correct, heirloom weapon was the trait that gave you a masterwork weapon and proficiency in that weapon. Then it was nerfed into oblivion and now gives you proficiency with one non masterwork simple or martial weapon that you have to pay for. You can also use it to get a +1 to AoO's with that weapon or a +2 to one combat manuever with that weapon.

The buckler duelist isn't the only archetype that doesn't give proficiency in the weapons it was built around. To my knowledge none of the archetypes all about the aldori dueling sword actually give proficiency with the dueling sword.

Sczarni

Just take the Heirloom weapon trait at first level, you will be proficient in only that one Falcata but you cant start at first level with it and you dont waste a feat.


northbrb wrote:
Just take the Heirloom weapon trait at first level, you will be proficient in only that one Falcata but you cant start at first level with it and you dont waste a feat.

No dice, the falcata is an exotic weapon. The trait doesn't give you proficiency in exotic weapons nor buy the item for you. A trait worth 20 gold would be OP or something I guess.


I did not know it got nerfed, was it reprinted or online errata? Either way it still gets proficiency and won't cost a feat slot


Thefuzzy1 wrote:
I did not know it got nerfed, was it reprinted or online errata? Either way it still gets proficiency and won't cost a feat slot

Here are the two of them.

Heirloom Weapon wrote:

You carry a non-masterwork simple or martial weapon that has been passed down from generation to generation in your family.

Benefit: When you select this trait, choose one of the following benefits:
•proficiency with that specific weapon
•a +1 trait bonus on attacks of opportunity with that specific weapon
•a +2 trait bonus on one kind of combat maneuver when using that specific weapon.

Note: You pay the standard gp cost for the weapon.

Pre errata Heirloom Weapon wrote:

You carry a weapon that has been passed down from generation to generation in your family. The heirloom weapon is of masterwork quality (but you still pay only the standard cost at character creation). You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with this specific weapon are considered proficient with this specific weapon(but not other weapons of that type) even if you do have the required proficiencies.


It's kind of like the "swashbuckler" rogue archetype that isn't proficient with bucklers...

The Exchange

Apparently you're giving up your 1st level feat to get into the archetype (assuming you aren't multiclassing into it.)

It's not as if it's a bad feat choice at 1st level, when a successful x3 crit almost always means you just won the fight.


DM_Blake wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Spend 1500gp to get a Cracked White Opalescent Pyramid (pretty sure that's what it's called) Ioun Stone. It gives you Weapon Familiarity with one Exotic Weapon of your choice. There are better things to spend your feats on.

Don't you need the perfect opalescent pyramid? The cracked one gives "weapon familiarity" - that's a racial ability, such as how elves have familiarity with longbows, shortbows, lonogswords, and rapiers. So, to get a weapon familiarity with Falcata, wouldn't you have to find a race that has that familiarity first? Is there a race that does?

Otherwise, you need Weapon Proficiency (falcata), which costs 10,000gp.

Or am I misunderstanding how the cracked version works?

The Tengu actually have weapon familiarity for all swords, so it works.


Even if there's workarounds, it's just silly.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Their weapon familiarity won't work with the falcata...familiarity grants you prof with martial weapons, not exotics. So they can use all martial swords, but not exotic swords.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:
Their weapon familiarity won't work with the falcata...familiarity grants you prof with martial weapons, not exotics. So they can use all martial swords, but not exotic swords.

Are we talking about tengu? because I'm pretty sure swordtrained does. It even has exotic weapons in the list of examples of weapons that it does give proficiency for. That said, not everyone wants to be a bird person.

Swordtrained wrote:
Tengus are trained from birth in swordplay, and as a result are automatically proficient with sword-like weapons (including bastard swords, daggers, elven curve blades, falchions, greatswords, kukris, longswords, punching daggers, rapiers, scimitars, short swords, and two-bladed swords).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Weapon Familiarity allows you to treat the noted weapon as a Martial Weapon.

So, if you are proficient with all Martial weapons, then you are proficient with the noted weapon. You could also use the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat, and select the noted weapon, to gain proficiency.

This is exactly how it works.


The Tengu's ability goes beyond that. It's not "treat as martial", it's automatically proficient; a Tengu Sorcerer can start with a Rhoka if he wants to and not suffer proficiency penalties.


Oh crap, I forgot Tengu had that! Well, I know my next character; Tengu bladebound magus with a rhoka black blade.

Rhoka is vicious. The best damage (barring bastard sword) AND crit range of any one-handed weapon in the game? Yes please.


Arachnofiend wrote:
The Tengu's ability goes beyond that. It's not "treat as martial", it's automatically proficient; a Tengu Sorcerer can start with a Rhoka if he wants to and not suffer proficiency penalties.

Well, yes, but I thought the question was if the Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid ioun stone was sufficient.

Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid wrote:
Cracked: The stone grants the wearer weapon familiarity with the keyed weapon (it is treated as a martial weapon for him).

Since Buckler Duelist/Rondelero is a Fighter archetype that doesn't modify Weapon Proficiency, you are proficient with "all martial weapons." Thus Weapon Familiarity from the Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid ioun stone is sufficient for proficiency.

Tengu, and Half Elves with Ancestral Arms, wouldn't need the ioun stone as they are racially proficient (not just familiar, proficient). Nor would anyone who spent a feat (say, a Fighter bonus feat) on proficiency.

And you still wouldn't need a perfect Opalescent White Pyramid, a Flawed Opalescent White Pyramid (3,000 gp) would work, albeit with a -2 to Dex.

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