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My party of 6 has just reached the end of book 2 (levels 6 and 7) and we maybe have 4000 gp worth of gold/items a piece. In short, we are poor and very under equipped. We were almost TPK'd by Xanesha, and though our rolls were bad, some extra AC, save bonuses, and to hit from the amount of magic we should have would have helped. It's bad enough that my magus and the cleric just took craft feats to mitigate the situation. I noticed the same thing in the early books of Carrion Crown, so it seems to be a pattern with Paizo AP's. Is Paizo deliberately ignoring the WBL guidlines in it's own adventures? If so, why? Perhaps the DM is doing this deliberately, but I don't think so. I understand that we have a larger party than normal, but even split between 4 PC's, we would be woefully under equipped. Plus, it is the GM's responsibility to adjust challenges and treasure for larger groups. What is the deal with Paizo APs?
I don't know about your specific group, but I know more than a few groups who've gone through the first few books thinking they're getting screwed but they just weren't selling enough. The goblins have a fair bit of gear, but because it's all small a lot of people ignore it. Talk to the GM and see what they say/think.
My players thought they were poor too. Until I reminded them that they were sitting on about 10,000 gp worth of shiny trinkets. Golden rule of adventure paths: If it sparkles, sell it.
I suppose there's a chance you might have missed some very valuable items in Thistletop. That's where a huge chunk of the loot seems to be stashed away. There's probably at least 20k worth of stuff in there, if you make sure to search every nook and cranny.
I'm spoilering because PCs will obviously read this.
In Book 1, if you didn't go past the shadows and deal with the crab, you'll be well behind. The helm alone is worth 3000 g.p., and there's another 2000+ g.p. of loot there as well.
In Book 2, my PCs totted up their loot after dealing with the skinsaw cultists, and that one building was worth over 48,000 g.p.!
So I'm thinking either you're missing items that you should be selling, or the GM isn't getting correct values for them. For example, each skinsaw cultist is worth over 1000 gold (750 for the mask + 150+ for the razor + a hand crossbow + other gear) and there are 13 of them in the sawmill without upping for the increased number of characters.
Carrion Crown is a different tale entirely. We're all around 1/2 WBL and it's a rather infamously cheap AP, though there's a GM thread that shows that if the PCs are completely amoral (sell everything in the castle, force every NPC to pay full price for their services, etc.), they manage to just get to WBL.
In short, in RotRL my PCs had no issues being at or above WBL through the whole storyline, but it's in "chunks". You'll be below WBL for some levels, and above for others. You have to be sure to explore carefully and sell everything you find.
EDIT: Removed my opinion of WBL entirely in the hopes of not derailing this thread. Hope I'm not too late. Sorry!
are you accounting for the extra people in your party? PF APs are built with the baseline assumption of four PCs so if you aren't adding extra loot then 6 people will be behind
Like I said, we are selling everything but gold and magic items we use. Having to sell everything but gems for half price is really hurting.
Your GM should make certain you guys have enough treasure, but the less reliant you are on gear, the better.
We play wealth a little differently - a lot less coin/gems/jewelry and often much of that donated to others, fewer magic items and most of them unique.
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Well, we haven't been able to sell a lot of stuff from book 2 yet, although I believe we weren't too keen on selling the cultist's skinsaw masks becuse we decided they were "ëvil".
Don't forget that you should be able to sell evil artifacts to good-aligned temples for destruction at the same price as if you sold them, GM willing.
Also Justic Ironbriar and Nualia got away, so we didn't get their stuff.
Ouch. I guess that would make a pretty big difference.
Umm... Hunt them down and steal their stuff?| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also Justic Ironbriar and Nualia got away, so we didn't get their stuff.
Yeah, that's probably a big chunk of it.
As others have mentioned, have you missed much of the missable loot? Also, is your GM having you use appraise to determine how much certain loot sells for? And if the previous is a yes, anyone in the party focused on Appraise?
We're running a five man party and we've skipped on a few pieces of loot(a certain mercenary survived and was left his gear; some of the items were deemed too "icky" to loot). We also blew a fair bit of coin raising an NPC in book 2.
Nonetheless, it feels like we're near WBL with a reasonably decent guesstimate. I'll have to audit my characters to be sure. But that's why I'm wondering how much you might have missed. Maybe your GM is willing to tell you roughly how much treasure your characters have missed?
According to James Jacobs, Paizo's creative director, the APs contain about double the amount of treasure for a 4-PC party to stay at WBL. That's because they assume that some of this equipment will be consumables (potions, scrolls, wands,…), parts of it will be sold at half-value, and parts of it will be missed. In the end, it should even out to PCs at roughly the right wealth and it does from my experience with Rise of the Runelord, Legacy of Fire, Kingmaker, and Shattered Star.
But if you missed on Nualia's treasure and are playing with 6 PCs, that will put a serious dent in your wealth. Talk to your GM. He should be trying to mitigate this with side quests, additional treasure left and right, etc.
...We also blew a fair bit of coin raising an NPC in book 2. ** spoiler omitted **...
I know this is something of a thread derailment, but I'm just curious...
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Talk to your GM. He should be trying to mitigate this with side quests, additional treasure left and right, etc.
A group of 6 PCs is far more powerful than a group of 4. Keeping wealth low is a good way to keep the game balanced.
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I do not mean to obsess over wbl, but the game assumes, well really requires you to be around your wbl to function properly. If not for that, I wouldn't care about it. We may have missed some, plus some NPC's got away. We may not sell the icky masks or I may take them and sell them on my own and let the others think I destroyed them.. I know we are 6, and I would be fine with wbl for 4 split between 6, but it seems we are far shy of the wbl for 4 pc's. Between that and a 15 point buy plus bad dice rolls, we are getting our butts kicked, which is one reason some npcs got away. I fear it is going to be a downward spiral with us having to retreat from fights and miss out on loot which will make us be weaker then we should for our level, and then we get TPK'd.
Talk to your GM. He should be trying to mitigate this with side quests, additional treasure left and right, etc.A group of 6 PCs is far more powerful than a group of 4. Keeping wealth low is a good way to keep the game balanced.
I'm not sure it's a player's say if they think they are getting less wealth compared to the WBL. There's a strong chance the GM is purposely keeping the party wealth down on purpose for balance/game reasons.
Running my own group through RotRLs I know they are every much extremely wealthy, so much the players have been asking me why there's so much treasure and if I've been padding things (which I haven't, in fact I've been reducing sections of it).
I'm not sure how much content you guys have missed but there is a crazy amount of $$$ to be had in this adventure path, you'd have to have skipped so much content if you are this low in wealth at this point of the game.
You are selling things at the right price right? Erylium's dagger was worth over 10,000 gp for example (over 5000gp sold).
I'm not sure it's a player's say if they think they are getting less wealth compared to the WBL. There's a strong chance the GM is purposely keeping the party wealth down on purpose for balance/game reasons.Talk to your GM. He should be trying to mitigate this with side quests, additional treasure left and right, etc.A group of 6 PCs is far more powerful than a group of 4. Keeping wealth low is a good way to keep the game balanced.
Yet mentioning one's worries with one's GM is a good thing. The GM may not agree and that's perfectly fine, but they may just not realize the situation. Having this discussion is better than having the game spiral downward because all the wealth is spent on raise dead and cure and restoration potions/scrolls/wands, and then having the campaign suddenly end in book 3 because of a TPK. That's all I'm saying. :)
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...We also blew a fair bit of coin raising an NPC in book 2. ** spoiler omitted **...I know this is something of a thread derailment, but I'm just curious...
** spoiler omitted **
We still had all of her body - though it did take some work to scoop up spread out bits that might have come flying out with her wounds - so we discussed it out of character and agreed that as long as was all there, it didn't fall outside the bounds of the spell, especially since the wizard had Make Whole and a free spell slot. The only thing really missing was the blood, but we did kinda handwave that.
As to why? Well, the justification the characters made was to use it as a trump card in case the investigation stalled. We'd have a witness. In truth, we figured that by the time our friends in the Sandpoint guard got her body to Magnimar and got her revived, we'd either have solved it or otherwise not need the witness. We just felt bad for her and her family. She was someone we could save, so we did.
Then later she got kidnapped and held for ransom by bandits because we're good at making trouble for ourselves.
I fear it is going to be a downward spiral with us having to retreat from fights and miss out on loot which will make us be weaker then we should for our level, and then we get TPK'd.
If that becomes too much of a problem, working crafting into the party might help alleviate it somewhat, assuming the GM is willing to give you time to craft(even if only between chapters).
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Raising Katrine was a huge dent in your wealth. But roleplaying is roleplaying.
As to the whole six PC party, my group is 9. I basically double up on mook NPCs and usually kick extra into the important NPCs. I also double all not equipment treasure, by value or quantity. To avoid the XP issue, I don't dole out XP, and just tell the PC's when to level as per the suggestions at the beginning of each chapter.
My players constantly complain about being too poor. They also miss about a third of the treasure, make very bad tactical decisions that cost them dearly, and let bad guys get away. As a GM, I can only do so much. If they die, they die. I've had one player die twice now. While I know it's my job to make it fun, I don't just give stuff away. As I've stated in previous threads, my players' average experience with D&D is fifteen years. They're veteran players and should know how to play smart.
Random encounters is your best way to boost lost treasure. That or give them a big haul in some bosses lair.
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APs assume a 4-PC party and 15-point stat arrays. It's not necessary for a GM to adjust loot up to keep 6 players at WBL when running an adventure with a 4-PC assumption (unless the point is for the heroes to absolutely steamroll everything). I've kept my 6 RotRL players at the wealth level published in the AP (aside from them skipping a few encounters and having a couple opponents flee and paying for a few raises). There's more wealth later on the campaign.
Also, Xanesha is supposed to be a tough fight. So much so that she has a reputation as a TPK machine.
-Skeld
RaisingSpoiler:was a huge dent in your wealth. But roleplaying is roleplaying.Katrine
Indeed, but the point was that I don't feel poor despite being in a 5 person party that blew that kind of gold on an RP decision. Which is why I brought it up. So I'm wondering if there's something else going on for the OP, like missing things.
Edit: A quick character audit tells me it's more than not feeling poor. Above WBL thanks to crafting. About 1500 below if you calculate what was spent to do the crafting instead of the value of the items that were crafted. Which isn't bad when you consider 1000g per character was blown on RP and a 5 man party. Being in a place in the adventure not very far ahead of where the OP is, it's not bad at all.
Also, looking back over the OP, there's something horribly off there. The character I audited(my cavalier, since my wizard has a ton of consumables and money spent into improving his spellbook), her share of the loot thus far has been about 29,000g after contribution to party loot(value of items owned at 43,000g). To only be at 4,000g at this point is beyond under wealthed.
Also, Xanesha is supposed to be a tough fight. So much so that she has a reputation as a TPK machine.
-Skeld
True, but she was significantly nerfed in the AE.
Creative Director
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Yeah; sounds like the combination of having a few key NPCs get away (along with their treasure... key NPCs always have a nice pile of loot) and having more than 4 players to split the loot up is the problem.
In a situation like this, when I'm the GM, and I realize that for whatever reason the PCs are low on treasure, I try to do one of two things:
1) Increase the treasures in the adventure for a bit. Increasing NPC rewards is a great way to do this, in fact, since bigger rewards from NPCs help to encourage the PCs to go on more quests, but simply adding in a few more expensive items into monster treasures is handy as well.
2) Have more minor encounters with good treasure. This helps to address the issue some folks have about giving out "free treasure." Simply have a few extra encounters where the monsters have an unusually large treasure.
In any event, the GM should be monitoring the PCs' wealth, watching both for complaints that they're underpowered (which can at times be legit), and comparing that to how the PCs are doing in encounters. If they're struggling, have to resupply a lot, or end up spending lots of money just recovering (by buying healing and the like or replacing lost items), then the GM needs to adjust the treasure he hands out upward.
And yes... those evil magic items ARE legit sources of income; the adventure specifically calls out that you can sell them to good temples for bounties.
I think it's a knee jerk reaction from some GMs that if players complain about being poor, they're just being greedy. But try not to assume the worst—remember, if you have more than 4 players in your party, and if you're adjusting encounters or playing them tougher than intended to make the PCs use more resources (including resurrections and the like), chances are good that your player characters ARE poor... and that's a problem that's only gonna compound, since character gear is part of what we assume is making the PCs tougher.
My players are probably a bit poor, but I don't go out of my way to hand out extra treasure to compensate. They miss a lot treasure because they don't search areas thoroughly enough, so IMO their poverty is in part their own fault. They also sometimes forget about treasure they do get and don't do a good job of tracking and recording what they find (for instance they totally forget they had the magic items they had uncovered on Justice Ironbriar). They have all rolled stats and ended up with characters that have a 20+ point buy equivalent, so I'm not overly worried about them not being able to handle the adventures. Plus I always strive for a certain difficulty threshold regardless of where they are in terms of power/wealth, so in a way the advantages they get from treasure are kind of just in their heads.
I do believe that a DM should be up front with players at the start of a campaign about how much treasure he will "make available" (ie. will it be around the WBL guidelines are will it be higher or lower). Making it available is not the same as "giving it out." Making it available means that it's possible for the PCs to get it if they do the right things (search the right parts of the dungeon, defeat specific enemies, loot the right stuff etc...). For instance, a DM might describe a bunch of tapestries hanging in a room at the start of an encounter. These tapestries may be valuable, but if after combat the characters don't bother to check them out, appraise them and find a way to transport them back to civilization, the DM shouldn't be held responsible for not "giving out" enough treasure. Sure coins would be more obvious and convenient for the PCs, but IMO they shouldn't always have everything handed to them on a platter. Referring to the distinctions above, I think that RotRL makes more than the necessary amount of treasure available for WBL, but it doesn't necessarily "give out" the correct amount of treasure.
When I design a traditional dungeon I usually include some very good treasure. However, I always put the really good stuff in the parts of the dungeon that are hardest to access (i.e., guarded by the most dangerous traps and monsters). If the characters are going to get the good stuff they have to take the big risks, which means dealing with encounters that offer a very real possibility of PC death. If they choose not to take the big risks or be thorough in the explorations, than they end up being a little poor.
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Just remember that it is unlikley that a party will get all the treasure all the time. Bad guys get a way and the high the level the easier to escape it is.
AP's run on the wealth by level chart and a GM should be mindful of what the party stands on wealth. The wealth by level isn't a set in stone indicator of what a party has to be at but it can be a good indicator of how to adjust enounters to a party.
Example
If you party is level 10 but most of your players wealth is near lv 8 the CR of the party isn't a high as the game mechanics expect. It is always a judgement call.
It is perfectly fine to run a over wealthy or a poor game even to the AP's but the GM's just needs to be mindful of the situation.
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Never ever ever bemoan having poor PC's it is by far better than rich ones.
I would argue that the best indicator of how to adjust encounters, and only one really worth looking at, is how they have been performing in previous encounters.
Just remember that it is unlikley that a party will get all the treasure all the time. Bad guys get a way and the high the level the easier to escape it is.
AP's run on the wealth by level chart and a GM should be mindful of what the party stands on wealth. The wealth by level isn't a set in stone indicator of what a party has to be at but it can be a good indicator of how to adjust enounters to a party.
Example
If you party is level 10 but most of your players wealth is near lv 8 the CR of the party isn't a high as the game mechanics expect. It is always a judgement call.It is perfectly fine to run a over wealthy or a poor game even to the AP's but the GM's just needs to be mindful of the situation.
Never ever ever bemoan having poor PC's it is by far better than rich ones.
Five star post.
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Never ever ever bemoan having poor PC's it is by far better than rich ones.Five star post.
Overly wealth is a problem too but if your party is 2-3 levels below the "expected" wealth chart and you throw a CR+2 CR+3 encounter (which main chapter ending fights can be) it not going to go very well if run as written most of the time.
With that being said I would prefer poor or rich party management.
My players were complaining about their last encounter not having a lot of treasure. So I compensated them for it. I sicced a Bogeyman on them. Double treasure share so... ;)
Though I also compensated it by altering the save-or-die rules for spells like Phantasmal Killer - they reduce whoever was hit to negative hit points, within two of dying. Allows a chance to stabilize or be saved. (Works both ways, both for the PCs and for their foes.)
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Yeah; sounds like the combination of having a few key NPCs get away (along with their treasure... key NPCs always have a nice pile of loot) and having more than 4 players to split the loot up is the problem.
In a situation like this, when I'm the GM, and I realize that for whatever reason the PCs are low on treasure, I try to do one of two things:
1) Increase the treasures in the adventure for a bit. Increasing NPC rewards is a great way to do this, in fact, since bigger rewards from NPCs help to encourage the PCs to go on more quests, but simply adding in a few more expensive items into monster treasures is handy as well.
2) Have more minor encounters with good treasure. This helps to address the issue some folks have about giving out "free treasure." Simply have a few extra encounters where the monsters have an unusually large treasure.
In any event, the GM should be monitoring the PCs' wealth, watching both for complaints that they're underpowered (which can at times be legit), and comparing that to how the PCs are doing in encounters. If they're struggling, have to resupply a lot, or end up spending lots of money just recovering (by buying healing and the like or replacing lost items), then the GM needs to adjust the treasure he hands out upward.
And yes... those evil magic items ARE legit sources of income; the adventure specifically calls out that you can sell them to good temples for bounties.
I think it's a knee jerk reaction from some GMs that if players complain about being poor, they're just being greedy. But try not to assume the worst—remember, if you have more than 4 players in your party, and if you're adjusting encounters or playing them tougher than intended to make the PCs use more resources (including resurrections and the like), chances are good that your player characters ARE poor... and that's a problem that's only gonna compound, since character gear is part of what we assume is making the PCs tougher.
I appreciate you chiming in, James. I've had the exact same thoughts. We were fighting Xanesha with AC's of 18-19 for the melee types and no cloaks of resistance. It was ugly. We still need to sell the loot from book 2, and maybe do some crafting. If our wbl still doesn't look good, then I will talk to the Dm and make sure we are extra diligent about looking for treasure.
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Never ever ever bemoan having poor PC's it is by far better than rich ones.Five star post.Overly wealth is a problem too but if your party is 2-3 levels below the "expected" wealth chart and you throw a CR+2 CR+3 encounter (which main chapter ending fights can be) it not going to go very well if run as written most of the time.
With that being said I would prefer poor or rich party management.
Generally speaking, I'd rather have less wealthy parties and adjust the CR level of encounters downward than to have parties where everyone is defined by their gear rather than their play and have to adjust the CR level of encounters upward.
I'm blessed with a group of experienced players who build characters well and play them smart - as a result, we find that they tend to more than makeup for the lower magic campaigns we tend to run... but then, they've had to, because without the crutch of lots of magical gear, they've had to get creative in their play and more knowledgeable about the rules. If we ran standard WBL now and I allowed them to buy whatever they wished, I'd probably have to scale encounters WAY up to compensate.
Generally speaking, if a party's response to a particular challenge is to throw their hands up and say they don't have enough magic gear to face it (regardless of WBL), then - in my opinion - either they or the GM is doing it wrong. This would even hold true in a world where magic was almost non-existent.
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My party of 6 ... Plus, it is the GM's responsibility to adjust challenges and treasure for larger groups.
Indeed, and one method is to have the strength of a party of 6 and give lower wealth; and then not have to adjust any opponents.
That's legitimate too (though some on the Paizo boards seem to forget that).
...one method is to have the strength of a party of 6 and give lower wealth; and then not have to adjust any opponents.
That's legitimate too (though some on the Paizo boards seem to forget that).
This is fine for the scope of a whole party, but not necessarily on a per-character basis, especially at high levels. In such cases the casters (who are usually less reliant on gear) will dominate. Also, you may get more character deaths as individuals are less resilient, and the necessary raises will diminish wealth still further.
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Yep, agreed that is also a great indicator and one I forgot to add.I would argue that the best indicator of how to adjust encounters, and only one really worth looking at, is how they have been performing in previous encounters.
And ya'll handle the encounters quite well. The only difficult encounter the party had was the Barl Breakbone one, and it was supposed to be. The party kept letting the Lamia's get away, and it WAS the final BOSS encounter. While I know party wealth is low as per that blasted chart in the Core Rulebook, you guys handle encounters quite easily.