Half giant powerfull built VS weapon size


Rules Questions

Sczarni

The half-giant's powerfull built (psionique unleashed p.14)says that he is able to weild weapon for creatures one size larger then himself without any penalty. great!

For now he use call weaponry power to summon large greatsword!
From what i understand of powerfull built he could use a large longsword or large warhammer for exemple but would a large 2 handed weapon be too big for him or he just suffer the -2 penalty for weapon not the right size?

Pushing the envelope even farther the half-giant player in my campaign is trying to build a huge greatsword. I'm not even sure he could use it!

Could anyone shed light on this?


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(Side note: since this is a 3rd party race, I'm not sure if this question belongs in the Rules Question forum or not)

Weapons as objects have a size. For example, a dagger is tiny and a greatsword is medium. But this is not what people talk about when they refer to "weapon size". Instead, when we talk about weapon size, we always mean "the size of creature this weapon is designed for".

So, a tiny dagger designed for a human hand is still a medium weapon, because humans are medium. Got it so far?

(This is explained in the Equipment chapter).

So, the Half-Giant is medium. But his powerful build lets him use any weapon designed for a large creature. That means he can use a large dagger (1d6), or a large longsword (2d6), or a large greatsword (3d6). There is no penalty when he does this, even for a two-handed weapon like a greatsword which is not too big for him as long as he uses two hands to wield it.

He will not be able to use a huge weapon normally. It's just too big. It's hard to say what damage it would do, probably 4d6 or maybe 3d8. But this weapon is TWO sizes too big for him - his powerful build only lets him use weapons one size too large; it says nothing about reducing penalties for weapons two sizes to large. So, effectively, using a huge greatsword (in two hands) would mean a -4 penalty for attacks he makes with such a large weapon.

In other words, his powerful build is limited to large weapons and does not help him with weapons that are huge (or bigger). Although, a kindly GM might interpret the ability to also reduce penalties of larger weapons as if a large creature were using them (a large creature, such as an ogre, using a huge greatsword would only have a -2 penalty). This is a kindly and liberal interpretation and I would advise against it - half giants will already be doing ridiculous amounts of damage; if he wants to be even more ridiculous, let him take the full penalty on attack rolls.

Sczarni

I'm a bit confused but thanx anyway.
I'll try to sit and read more closely once at home.


What are you confused about?


No, he cannot use a large 2 handed weapon.

There are three weapon categories: 2 handed, 1 handed, light. This is different from the size of the weapon, but they are related.

For every size difference between the weapon and the user, the category shifts accordingly.

A small great sword counts as a '1 handed' weapon to a medium creature. A large dagger counts as a '2 handed' weapon to a small creature. it is -2 to use these weapons on top of how you hold them (large longsword has both a -2 penalty and requires two hands for a medium creature to use it).

You cannot wield something that is 'greater than' the 2 handed category. A medium creature cannot wield a large great sword, a small creature cannot use a medium great sword. It is just as impossible as using a great sword with one hand; it is a 2 handed weapon and must be used with two hands.


MurphysParadox wrote:

No, he cannot use a large 2 handed weapon.

There are three weapon categories: 2 handed, 1 handed, light. This is different from the size of the weapon, but they are related.

For every size difference between the weapon and the user, the category shifts accordingly.

A small great sword counts as a '1 handed' weapon to a medium creature. A large dagger counts as a '2 handed' weapon to a small creature. it is -2 to use these weapons on top of how you hold them (large longsword has both a -2 penalty and requires two hands for a medium creature to use it).

You cannot wield something that is 'greater than' the 2 handed category. A medium creature cannot wield a large great sword, a small creature cannot use a medium great sword. It is just as impossible as using a great sword with one hand; it is a 2 handed weapon and must be used with two hands.

(edited upon further consideration)

That's confusing the issue even more. But it is relevant.

The Half-Giant has a racial ability (Powerful Build) that lets him use large weapons without penalty; as long as he uses a large 2H weapon with two hands, it's still just a large weapon and still requires the "effort" of a 2H weapon, and he can use it with two hands with no penalties.

However, the relevant part that Murphy pointed out is that you must also increase the "effort" for oversized weapons. The "effort" required for a normal human to wield a large 2H weapon is too much, they cannot even do it. But the Half-Giant still can, because of Powerful Build.

However, the "effort" required to wield a huge 2H weapon is too much, even for a real ogre (despite my first post), and it's too much for a Half-Giant. However, the Half-Giant could wield a huge longsword as a 2H weapon (it requires the same "effort" as a large 2H weapon), suffering the -4 penalty because it is two sizes too large.

(This alters my first post which hadn't taken the "effort" rules into account).

Sczarni

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MurphysParadox wrote:

No, he cannot use a large 2 handed weapon.

There are three weapon categories: 2 handed, 1 handed, light. This is different from the size of the weapon, but they are related.

For every size difference between the weapon and the user, the category shifts accordingly.

A small great sword counts as a '1 handed' weapon to a medium creature. A large dagger counts as a '2 handed' weapon to a small creature. it is -2 to use these weapons on top of how you hold them (large longsword has both a -2 penalty and requires two hands for a medium creature to use it).

You cannot wield something that is 'greater than' the 2 handed category. A medium creature cannot wield a large great sword, a small creature cannot use a medium great sword. It is just as impossible as using a great sword with one hand; it is a 2 handed weapon and must be used with two hands.

I'm pretty sure i know what you mean but it seems that you forget one point about my OP. The half giant is considered one size larger for the purpose of weilding weapon.

Then he is considered a large creature and therefore i don't see why he could not use a large greatsword the same way humans are weilding medium greatswords.

My problem about him (a large creature)is using a 2 handed huge weapon!

Sounds to me he can't right?


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Vaahama wrote:

My problem about him (a large creature)is using a 2 handed huge weapon!

Sounds to me he can't right?

Correct.

He could wield a Gargantuan light weapon (-6), a huge one-handed weapon (-4), or a large 2H weapon (-0 thanks to Powerful Build).

Side note: medium humans, elves, dwarves, etc. (but not the small races) can do exactly the same thing, but they have to limit themselves to huge light weapons or large one-handed/light weapons, and they take the -2 penalty when wielding any large weapon; the Half-Giant does not. Small creatures reduce all those sizes by one category.


I think what MurphysParadox is referring to is this (4th paragraph under the Weapon Size entry on the Equipment page of the Core Rulebook on the PRD)

Weapon Sizes wrote:
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.

So the largest weapons wieldable by a Medium-sized creature are medium-sized two-handed weapons (-0 penalty), large-sized one-handed weapons (-2 penalty; wielded in two-hands), or Huge-sized light weapons (-4 penalty; wielded in two-hands). Anything larger than this would change it “to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration”. So, unless I’m missing something, a Medium creature cannot wield a Large-sized two-handed weapon because it becomes something larger than “two-handed” at that point.

Now the tricky part. The Powerful Build ability.

Power Build (pulled from the d20srd) wrote:
The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for a Combat Maneuver Bonus or Combat Maneuver Defense (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefts of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.

The bolded part is all that really matters. I guess the question is “Do those two lines make the half-giant Large for the purposes of wielding Large weapons? Or do they simply remove the penalties when wielding Large weapons a medium-sized creature could already legally wield?”

I want that portion to say that the half-giant is basically treated as large for the purpose of wielding Large weapons. But if that’s the case, why doesn’t it say that?

In what it says, all it mechanically does is remove any penalties that would be incurred for the medium-sized half-giant wielding a large-sized weapon.


And to the OP, I can think of no way a medium-sized character—even with the Powerful Build ability—could wield a Huge greatsword.

Dark Archive

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Eben TheQuiet wrote:
And to the OP, I can think of no way a medium-sized character—even with the Powerful Build ability—could wield a Huge greatsword.

Powerful build plus Lighten Weapon plus Improved Lighten Weapon seems like it would do that.

Powerful build has the medium creature count as large and Lighten weapon lets them treat one type of huge weapon as large for usage. Powerful build is a racial trait not a feat so they would stack. So, a huge greatsword could be wielded by a medium creature with powerful build and that feat. Plus, powerful build stacks with the Psionic power Expansion which would have the weapon be Gargantuan, and if you were high enough level to augment the power you could be doing the damage of a Colossal sized weapon.


Eben TheQuiet wrote:
And to the OP, I can think of no way a medium-sized character—even with the Powerful Build ability—could wield a Huge greatsword.

Maybe, but you could go:

Tiefling + Oversized Limbs + Jotungrip + Keen Huge Falcata and get 3d6 17-20/x3

With a couple levels in ranger, you could TWF with it without investing in Dex.


Don't forget the impact weapon property. That's another size increase in damage. The lead blades spell does the same thing.


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I recommend thinking of this in steps.

1} You are Medium.
You can use all Medium weapons without penalty.
You can use Large light weapons as one-handed weapons at -4.
You can use Large one-handed weapons as two-handed weapons at -4.

2} You are a half-giant so everything goes up ONE Size.
You can use all Large weapons without penalty.
You can use Huge light weapons as one-handed weapons at -4.
You can use Huge one-handed weapons as two-handed weapons at -4.

3} You manifest expansion on yourself, going up ONE Size.
You can use all Huge weapons without penalty.
You can use Gargantuan light weapons as one-handed weapons at -4.
You can use Gargantuan one-handed weapons as two-handed weapons at -4.

If you start by thinking about what a baseline Medium character is permitted to do and just increase the Size category it should make sense.


When it says just "without penalty" as a blanket statement, that includes both attack roll penalties and the "size adjustment" that causes a 1-h weapon 1 step larger to be treated as a 2-h weapon. As precedent, there's a creature called the Redcap:

Redcap wrote:

Redcap (small fey)

Melee Medium Scythe
Heavy Weapons (Ex) A redcap can wield weapons sized for Medium creatures without penalty.

The relevant stat blocks are listed above. The Redcap is a small creature and, by default rules, a small creature would not be able to wield a medium scythe because size step-up would take it from 2-h handiness to "unwieldable". However, the Heavy Weapons ability states the Redcap can wield weapons sized for medium creatures "without penalty". The only way they'd be able to wield the weapon that they are listed with is if "without penalty" covers the size-handiness adjustment as well as the attack penalty.

Contrast with Titan Mauler's Massive Weapons ability:

Massive Weapons (Ex): At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0). This ability replaces trap sense.

The writer of the class is on record as saying his original write was supposed work like the Redcap ability and give a blanket exemption to "penalties", but the editors changed it so that it only applies to attack roll penalties specifically.

So, by precedent of how Pathfinder rules are written, the Powerful Build ability, which says you may wield weapons one size larger "without penalty" means you treat a Large Greatsword as still a 2-h weapon and you don't suffer the -2 penalty for wielding a wrong-sized weapon.

Arguably, though, also because of the way it's worded, I disagree that this benefit effectively works for Huge or larger weapons. It says you wield weapons "designed for creatures one size larger without penalty". So, if you're a Medium Half-Giant, you can wield a Greatsword designed for a large creature, but a Huge Longsword isn't designed for a Large creature and, even though a Large creature could wield a Huge Longsword as a 2-h weapon, Powerful Build only lets you treat Large Weapons as their base handiness. So you'd still be limited to a Huge Light Weapon at the largest and it's take the full -4 penalty for 2 sizes different.

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