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I have a few questions around a druid's animal companion's moves while the druid has wildshaped.
Aside from shifting into the same type of animal, is it possible for a druid to command her animal companion while wildshaped in PFS play? Could the companions tricks be related to gestures or movements that a druid in animal form could do?
Additionally, if the companions intelligence is raised to 3 can it be assumed to understand common? If so can it be ordered to obey the commands of another party member while the druid is shifted? Would they gain any bonus to handle animal checks?
Thanks!
Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Pullman
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I will answer them in the order you asked them from my experience which is limited in regards to druids.
Yes, Wild Speech.
Maybe, never had it come up.
If you raise it to Int 3 and take a rank in linguistics it can understand whatever language you teach it, but cannot speak the language.
Anyone can tell your animal to do something if they succeed on a Handle Animal check unless your animal has the exclusive trick.
A person other than you does not receive any bonus on Handle Animal checks with your animal companion.
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Anyone can tell your animal to do something if they succeed on a Handle Animal check unless your animal has the exclusive trick.
The exclusive trick is to prevent a charmed or wild empathied animal companion from taking orders. I don't think Handle animal generally lets you give commands to animals that don't know you from adam (that would make the skill better than charm animal and wild empathy)
from the handler who taught it this trick. If an animal
has both the exclusive and serve tricks, it takes directions
only from the handler that taught it the exclusive trick
and those creatures indicated by the trainer’s serve
command. An animal with the exclusive trick does not
take trick commands from others even if it is friendly
or helpful toward them (such as through the result of a
charm animal spell), though this does not prevent it from
being controlled by other enchantment spells (such as
dominate animal), and the animal still otherwise acts as a
friendly or helpful creature when applicable.
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I have a few questions around a druid's animal companion's moves while the druid has wildshaped.
Aside from shifting into the same type of animal, is it possible for a druid to command her animal companion while wildshaped in PFS play?
DM's call. Expect table variation. Some might let you whinny or knicker in the general direction of what you need done. Presumably your companion has seen you in critter shape often enough to get the gist of it.
At the very least your animal should have the defend trick set to someone in the party, so even if its not going after the wizard in the back it will still attempt to bite SOMETHING that comes near you with a pointy stick.
Wild speech or being the same type of critter as your pet as pointed out will definitely work.
Speak with animals (you're a druid, I'm going to assume natural spell) - slightly iffier. The spell doesn't say that you have to be speaking a language, but some DM's may require you to.
Additionally, if the companions intelligence is raised to 3 can it be assumed to understand common?
As per the PFS FAQ Linky The critter needs to spend a point in linguistics to understand (but not speak or read) common. This doesn't obviate the need for handle animal checks (but may give you more leeway in the complex commands)
If so can it be ordered to obey the commands of another party member while the druid is shifted? Would they gain any bonus to handle animal checks?
Thanks!
That would be the serve trick from the animal archive (which if you have a critter class you really should pick up) It lets another party member use your bonus (which should auto succeed)
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Wild Speech is a fantastic feat regardless of anything else, simply for enabling use-activated items while wild shaped, since you can speak command words.
Definitely. that and a polymorphic pouch give you all your wands and scrolls all the time.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Hamburg
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The exclusive trick is to prevent a charmed or wild empathied animal companion from taking orders. I don't think Handle animal generally lets you give commands to animals that don't know you from adam (that would make the skill better than charm animal and wild empathy)
Sure that's possible. But even if the animal is someone's animal companion, a handler other than that companion's master treats it as a normal animal (using move actions to handle it and full-round-actions to push it). I suppose if someone wants to "override" an order, he'd have to succeed at an opposed Handle Animal check (which makes the +4 bonus the master gains quite useful).
An animal with the exclusive trick does not take trick commands from others even if it is friendly or helpful toward them (such as through the result of a charm animal spell)
This clearly states that those spells are just examples of how far the "protection" from the Exclusive trick goes.
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Sure that's possible. But even if the animal is someone's animal companion, a handler other than that companion's master treats it as a normal animal (using move actions to handle it and full-round-actions to push it).
Can you cite a ruling for that?
Think about what you're suggesting about how this works. A combat trained horse doesn't have the the exclusive trick. This means anyone can make a DC 10 handle animal check as a move action and tell the warhorse to either attack the person on its back or leave the fight with the "down" command. Peasants need never fear the mounted knight again!
I suppose if someone wants to "override" an order, he'd have to succeed at an opposed Handle Animal check (which makes the +4 bonus the master gains quite useful).
But this mechanic isn't there.
This clearly states that those spells are just examples of how far the "protection" from the Exclusive trick goes.
But also seems to suggest that the animal needs to be made friendly towards you before you can give it commands.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Actually, I can site the absence of a ruling.
Handle Animal states: You can make an animal... It doesn't say friendly animal, it doesn't say domestic animal, it doesn't say *your* animal. It just says "an animal" So anyone can use handle animal on any animal.
Exclusive says "No one else can handle this animal, not even if they charm it first."
Yes, that means that if you have a high enough handle animal skill, and are willing to risk a full round action in combat, you can push a wild bear to execute the Down command, and then turn and walk away from the encounter.
The only place where domestic or friendly animals come into it is if you are trying to use the handle animal skill untrained.
As far as the "opposed handle animal check" are you saying that because there are no explicit rules for head to head opposed skill checks, then if you use diplomacy on a mutual friend (dc 10) to ask them do you a favor, and then I use diplomacy on that same friend to ask them not to (dc 10), you don't get to oppose my check? (and because they have now refused your favor, you can't ask them again...)
No, in general, when two people are using their skills, in a way that directly opposes each other, the usual solution is to have them roll head to head.
(Handle animal vs ride is odd, because riding basicly seems to override the animal's free will to a degree. It moves where you move it, it acts on your initiative, etc. )
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Ok, so if the party is attacked by wild animals, You'll let someone make a DC 25 handle animal check to make one lion attack another? RAW there's nothing that says you can't command hostile animals after all.
A DC 10 possibly untrained check to make a knights horse attack its rider?
It is, at best, a ridiculous raw exploit, and not one I think DMs will let go the other way.
Its not even if they charm it 'or make it friendly'.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Ok, so if the party is attacked by wild animals, You'll let someone make a DC 25 handle animal check to make one lion attack another? RAW there's nothing that says you can't command hostile animals after all.
Full round action, yes.
By the rules, this would work. (By flavor of play, I would probably describe it as tossing a big juicy steak right past the other lion.)
Note that the lion doesn't stop attacking till you push it again, and it's definition of "apparent enemies" probably includes the rest of the party if they have attacked it, so if it finishes off the other lion, it is probably turning on your friends. (Also it is DC 27 as soon as it takes damage.)
A DC 10 possibly untrained check to make a knights horse attack its rider?
Actually, sure, now since the horse doesn't have a good practical way to attack the rider, at most the horse would be able to do is try to throw the rider, which requires the rider to make a DC 5 ride check, (Effectively DC 3 if they have a military saddle.)
Its not even if they charm it 'or make it friendly'.
Yes, charming the animal or making it friendly does not override exclusive. That's all that is saying. It's not saying it has to be charmed or friendly to use handle animal.
(If it did, that would be a problem, because under wild empathy it says that domestic animals are considered indifferent, and wild empathy and charm animal is the only way to change that to friendly, so *no* animal could be handled by anyone unless they were a druid or spell caster.)
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Full round action, yes.
Thats not just wrong that's nuts
It makes handle animal 100 times better than a signature class feature wild empathy.
so if it finishes off the other lion, it is probably turning on your friends. (Also it is DC 27 as soon as it takes damage.)
Until you give it the down command to make it leave.
Actually, sure, now since the horse doesn't have a good practical way to attack the rider
You wanted to play strict raw with the handle animals rules. Strict raw the rider shares its space with the mount, and any creature (even a tiny one) can make an attack into its own space. So the horse spends its turn making a full attack action against the rider instead of going anywhere... on a DC 10 check. There is no raw opposed handle animal or ride check... the critter has a command it goes with it.
Yes, charming the animal or making it friendly does not override exclusive. That's all that is saying. It's not saying it has to be charmed or friendly to use handle animal.
The alternative is pretty nuts.
(If it did, that would be a problem, because under wild empathy it says that domestic animals are considered indifferent, and wild empathy and charm animal is the only way to change that to friendly, so *no* animal could be handled by anyone unless they were a druid or spell caster.)
Or you could conclude that the animal has to be at least indifferent towards you to give it a command. Its a common sense solution that stops most of the weird abuse and puts it in line with diplomacy.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Note that in the above example, the player could also mount the lion. (assuming he meets the size requirements.)
Then with a high enough ride skill (-10 for bareback and not an appropriate mount) He could steer it around the battle field.
Keep in mind we are talking some ridiculous levels of skill / luck involved in this.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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You wanted to play strict raw with the handle animals rules. Strict raw the rider shares its space with the mount, and any creature (even a tiny one) can make an attack into its own space. So the horse spends its turn making a full attack action against the rider instead of going anywhere... on a DC 10 check. There is no raw opposed handle animal or ride check... the critter has a command it goes with it.
Nope. Again, strict rules as written. You get to force your mount to move, as a free action, no check. So it can't make full attacks anyway unless you let it. If you are really worried about it attacking you, you could just force it to double move. And as a move action you can bring it back under control with that same DC 10 check. So I just don't see this being a problem.
But then, as I said up thread, I would make it an opposed check, just as if we were both using diplomacy to get someone to do opposite things.
Now, if we want to go with the animal has to be at least indifferent to you to be handled, that's fine. Domestic animals are considered to be indifferent to everyone who hasn't attacked them. Still, anyone can ues handle animal.
Basically, what you seem to be saying is that the only purpose the exclusive trick serves is to prevent charm animal spells from working on your animal. And that this comes at the expense of preventing any of your allies from handling the animal. That seems pretty silly for a trick.
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Basically, what you seem to be saying is that the only purpose the exclusive trick serves is to prevent charm animal spells from working on your animal. And that this comes at the expense of preventing any of your allies from handling the animal. That seems pretty silly for a trick.
Considering their will saves its an incredibly Good trick. You can also set the critter to defend another party member, or get the serve trick, or just rely on the animal not to be a robot if you go unconcious.
Handle animal as a skill has been around for 15 years without the exclusive trick. Do you think that, this entire time, the intent was to be able to make a handle animal check to control someone elses' mount or animal companion?
What I'm saying limits the usage of one animal trick. What you're saying obviates class features completely.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Well, I tried to be reasonable and say "well you could just make it an opposed check. And I got told "No, you can't use common sense! There is no rules for an opposed check!"
So I looked at it and I said, okay, then by the rules, there is nothing saying someone can't push a wild animal, and I got told "No! you can't use the rules! You need to use common sense!"
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Well, I tried to be reasonable and say "well you could just make it an opposed check. And I got told "No, you can't use common sense! There is no rules for an opposed check!"
So I looked at it and I said, okay, then by the rules, there is nothing saying someone can't push a wild animal, and I got told "No! you can't use the rules! You need to use common sense!"
If you allow common sense into it, then the answer becomes -Animals do not listen to people they don't know or don't like giving them commands-.
Which was the point of taking your view of the raw to such absurd lengths requiring common sense in your answer.
Savvy?
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Except most animals are trained to respond to a specific command. Not to a specific command given by a specific person. Otherwise hire stables would be pretty pointless. "Sure, you can hire a horse to pull your cart, but it won't listen to you unless it knows you real well, so you better take it home for a month."
If the players buy a guard animal, or any animal with a voice command, do they have to wait a game session before they use it?
If they want to have an animal that only obeys them, that's what the exclusive trick is for.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I would be fine with the arguement that there should be a penalty / bonus for how much the animal hates / likes you. But once again, although that is common sense, it is not the rules as written.So why does common sense kick in when you decide there's going to be an opposed roll but not before?
I think common sense should kick in all the time. You said common sense says that it is not reasonable for someone to countermand the owner with a DC 10 check. I say it is not common sense that no one can ever countermand the owner.
I say that common sense says there should be an opposed check (to aleviate your concerns that the DC is too low.) You say that isn't in the rules, so we can't do that. Instead we must say that only you can command animals owned by the party (which isn't in the rules either.) (In other words, no one, no matter how high their skill, can ever countermand an animals owner, without magic.)
You say it is not common sense that someone untrained can make a horse attack it's rider with a DC 10 check. I say it seems reasonable that with that check you could cause the animal to attack it's rider but that common sense says that the animal wouldn't be able to do much beyond try to throw the rider. You say "Well thats not in the rules, so we can't do that. Instead we will just say that you can't use handle animal on horses, it's not in the rules, but it's just common sense so that must be the rule."
Frankly, in my opinion, if you want to use handle animal on an opponent's animal (or a wild animal), that falls under "Clever solution not covered by the rules." As such it is up to the GM to adjudicate it, and my opinion it should be a opposed check, possibly with appropriate situational bonuses.
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I say that common sense says there should be an opposed check (to aleviate your concerns that the DC is too low.) You say that isn't in the rules, so we can't do that. Instead we must say that only you can command animals owned by the party (which isn't in the rules either.) (In other words, no one, no matter how high their skill, can ever countermand an animals owner, without magic.)
Do you think Ceasar Milan can get a police dog to attack its well liked owner just by walking up and saying a few words in german? Or even a family dog?
Its not a matter of being the owner: its a matter of getting the creature to like you. In africa the back of the classroom had a donkey that absolutely adored me (or at least my oranges). The owner wanted me to teach him english so he could talk to the donkey.
Frankly, in my opinion, if you want to use handle animal on an opponent's animal (or a wild animal), that falls under "Clever solution not covered by the rules."
The steak is creative. Abusing the handle animals rules is the exact opposite of creative. It is banal, disingenuous, dishonest and deliberate rules lawerying that relies completely on an overly literal reading of the rules as written in order to gain a mechanical advantage. It is the literal definition of munchkinism and gives rules lawyers a bad name.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I would turn that around:
If a police officer was assigned a dog, and that same day, Ceasar Milan walked in to the room, and Ceasar Milan and the officer each ordered the dog to attack the other, who would the dog attack?
Two years of bonding latter, and Ceasar Milan walked up to the officer, and ordered the dog to attack, is it going to? Probably not (hopefully, Police dogs are not 100% predictable.)
What has changed? In rules terms, the owner has spent the last two years "teaching" (in rules terms at least) the dog the "Exclusive" trick.
The cop takes a partner. Over time the dog, cop and partner develop a trust. When the partner issues a command, the dog obeys. What has happened? In rules terms, the dog has been taught the "Serve" trick.
To extend your example: Ceasar Milan walk down an alley, and runs into a pack of wild dogs. Using body language and posture, he attempts to convince the alpha of the pack to back down and walk away. (in game terms, he is pushing for the the Down trick.)
Can he attempt it? Under your ruling, he can't even attempt it no matter how high his skill.
Now, do I think that it should be as easy to push wild animals as it is to push domestic animals? No. I think there should be a -5 (or higher) penalty. But that's not in the rules, so at a PFS table, I can't just say it is. (At best, as far as I can tell, I can say there is a +/- 2 GM discretion penalty.)
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I would turn that around:
If a police officer was assigned a dog, and that same day, Ceasar Milan walked in to the room, and Ceasar Milan and the officer each ordered the dog to attack the other, who would the dog attack?
Probably neither of them as the dog goes "Yeaaah.. who are you?"
What has changed? In rules terms, the owner has spent the last two years "teaching" (in rules terms at least) the dog the "Exclusive" trick.
Or the dogs gotten friendly towards the person thats been feeding him and petting him for a few years.
The cop takes a partner. Over time the dog, cop and partner develop a trust. When the partner issues a command, the dog obeys. What has happened? In rules terms, the dog has been taught the "Serve" trick.
Or the dogs gotten friendly towards the person thats been feeding him and petting him for a few years.
To extend your example: Ceasar Milan walk down an alley, and runs into a pack of wild dogs. Using body language and posture, he attempts to convince the alpha of the pack to back down and walk away. (in game terms, he is pushing for the the Down trick.)Can he attempt it? Under your ruling, he can't even attempt it no matter how high his skill.
With good reason, because what you're describing is the wild empathy class feature (which ceasar would probably have, off of an urban ranger or something). What you have is not only a skill replacing a class feature, but being BETTER at it. (because it works faster and gives you more control)
Now, do I think that it should be as easy to push wild animals as it is to push domestic animals? No. I think there should be a -5 (or higher) penalty. But that's not in the rules, so at a PFS table, I can't just say it is. (At best, as far as I can tell, I can say there is a +/- 2 GM discretion penalty.)
Even PFS does not ask you to read the raw mindlessly.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Then you *are* saying that if I show up to your game, and I buy a combat trained / guard trained animal, I can't use it. I first have to get it friendly to me.
And if I am not a druid / caster, I can't do that, because there is literally nothing that lets me do that, and even if I did it through role play over several months, since effects do not carry over between scenarios unless there is a rule stating they do, I still can't do it.
So either trained animals obey everyone without the exclusive trick. Or they obey only the person who trained them, which if it is not the PC, means combat trained animals are a waste of money.
NN, I feel like if you really wanted to have a realistic system, that obeyed common sense, then each animal would have to have an inate set of behaviors that could be "pushed" (Though frankly, realistically, pushing an animal should take several minutes out of combat) And only those behaviors would be pushable. But yes, this is a cinematic pulp system. So really the common sense answer is not "could that happen in real life." The common sense answer is "could that happen in an over the top swashbuckling, swords and sorcery movie."
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Then you *are* saying that if I show up to your game, and I buy a combat trained / guard trained animal, I can't use it. I first have to get it friendly to me.
No, I'm not.
Nor do you show up fatigued at my game because your character didn't sleep the night before. Nor starving because you didn't eat, getting blisters from not breaking in your boots, nor reeking to high heaven because you haven't showered in three weeks
Your character LIVES between scenarios/before the game starts. Presumably you've had Bill the Buffalo and some oats and gotten to know each other.
So either trained animals obey everyone without the exclusive trick. Or they obey only the person who trained them, which if it is not the PC, means combat trained animals are a waste of money.
Or you could go with what I actually said which is animals need to know or like you before they'll listen to you. Not everything in the game has a mechanic.
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Ok, so if the party is attacked by wild animals, You'll let someone make a DC 25 handle animal check to make one lion attack another? RAW there's nothing that says you can't command hostile animals after all.
A DC 10 possibly untrained check to make a knights horse attack its rider?
It is, at best, a ridiculous raw exploit, and not one I think DMs will let go the other way.
Its not even if they charm it 'or make it friendly'.
RAW , 10 bandits attack you, there's nothing to say you can't make a DC 30 diplo check to negate the whole encounter and make them go from hostile to friendly.
common sense though says that trying Handle Animal on a hostile animal likely won't work.
there is a reason Animal Empathy exists, its diplomacy for animals, which is more useful for "talking down" a hostile animal.
now. you get surrounded by a pack of animals, and you try to handle animal a hostile creature while its friends are attacking you... well thats natural selection, you should have run.
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RAW , 10 bandits attack you, there's nothing to say you can't make a DC 30 diplo check to negate the whole encounter and make them go from hostile to friendly.
The diplomancers newspaper: Diplomacy is generally ineffective in combat and against creatures that intend to harm you or your allies in the immediate future.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Hamburg
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What has changed? In rules terms, the owner has spent the last two years "teaching" (in rules terms at least) the dog the "Exclusive" trick.Or the dogs gotten friendly towards the person thats been feeding him and petting him for a few years.
And that's the way that person taught the dog the Exclusive trick.
In real life, people don't just roll dice, they actually have to "roleplay" everything.In every situation that involves handling or pushing a creature an animal, I'd expect some description of how exactly this is done.
If a player says "I want to use Handle Animal to have the lion attack its mate.", the first thing I'd ask is "How are you trying to do this?".
If he comes up with stuff like throwing a steak, then I'll count it as a creative solution. If the player just wants to roll the dice and have the numbers talk, the GM can just say it won't work (I think it's important to encourage roleplaying over number-crunching).
Keep in mind that the lion would continue to attack apparent opponents (which is the party) unless the character uses another full-round action to have the lion stop attacking.
Also, on the topic of having another character's animal do anything that opposes its current commands, the DC is of course the HA check the owner used to give the original command (if he didn't roll because he has a modifer of +9 or more, have him roll the opposed check then).
In the case of a mount, the mount uses the same initiative count as the rider, so on his turn, the rider can make a Ride check to control the mount again (which, in the case of combat-trained mounts, is generally a free action or no action).
In the case of a non-mount combat animal, it will perform the action on its turn (if the opponent succeeded in the opposed check). On his own turn, the owner can try to override that command again. In the case of an animal companion, this is a free action for the owner.
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What has changed? In rules terms, the owner has spent the last two years "teaching" (in rules terms at least) the dog the "Exclusive" trick.Or the dogs gotten friendly towards the person thats been feeding him and petting him for a few years.And that's the way that person taught the dog the Exclusive trick.
No, because unless your typical household dog has the exclusive trick and the serve trick 6 times it doesn't work.
In the case of a mount, the mount uses the same initiative count as the rider, so on his turn, the rider can make a Ride check to control the mount again (which, in the case of combat-trained mounts, is generally a free action or no action).
I'll be sure to have my bat land on the big bad's head and command him to walk off a cliff with a ride check then...
Also you can just delay until the rider has given the command and then countermand it.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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NN, I feel like if you really wanted to have a realistic system, that obeyed common senseThat ship sailed back in the first iteration of which D&D decided that armor would affect the likelihood you got hit instead of the amount of damage you take.
True, let me amend that. I feel like if you really wanted to have a realistic system, you would be playing GURPS :)
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RAW , 10 bandits attack you, there's nothing to say you can't make a DC 30 diplo check to negate the whole encounter and make them go from hostile to friendly.The diplomancers newspaper: Diplomacy is generally ineffective in combat and against creatures that intend to harm you or your allies in the immediate future.
that's generally up to the GM. but Animal Empathy spells out how its used ( or used to. 30 ft away from the party, not in combat etc.? ) Handle Animal lacks that common sense being spelled out.
following the Diplomancers Newspaper though :
Making a Handle Animal check against a knight's horse, in combat, to make the horse rear up and throw its rider seems like a similar situation though, you're in combat, pushing to get an animal to do something. its distracted, doesn't know you, and is hostile. why on earth should it listen to you?
similarly most burglars that break into homes can't tell a dog "down", or "stay" and actually have the dog listen, its too busy biting their ___ off.
GM twist though: the knight's stableboy in the heat of combat, might be able to make the horse rear, distracting the knight long enough for him to run. b/c the horse knows him.
The neighbor that feeds the dog a bit of steak through the fence every 4th of july might get the dog to recognize him, and lay down if he tosses it some food.
There's uses of Handle Animal in combat. Starting an opposed charisma check duel with the animal's owner isn't handled in the pathfinder rules very well. So it requires a lot of GM adjudication.
the Serve and Exclusive commands seem like an in game way of denoting who the animal knows and will listen to, when its mostly a case of common sense: if the animal doesn't know you, it won't perform tricks unless its comfortable around you. that just seems common sense. If its not even trained in those tricks, pushing a wild animal while its attacking you seems like something that flat should not work. off the cuff, DC modifiers for hostile should apply, raising the DC to 45 not 25 to push, besides being a full round action.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I just found that one yesterday. I have the AA, but I hadn't really read most of the extra tricks. (I had read exclusive and serve because they came up elsewhere.)
Having now read most of them, I am considering giving my hunter's gecko the "bombard" command, and equipping it with alchemist fires. :) But I need to go back and reread it and see if that will work.
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resolve it like opposed charisma checks for charmed creatures?
just an idea.
As much as that would make my druid Fluttershy even more absurd, its very much against the intent of the handle animal rules to take over wild empathies job, replace charm animal, and more or less replace dominate animal with a skill.
What precisely is the point of charm animal if you can do an opposed handle animal/charisma check to get it to act as if its charmed anyway? You have the animal behaving exactly as if its under the effects of a spell whether it is or not.
Loopholing handle animal like that is walk away from the table worthy nuts.