RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Grimdark Paladin who knows that in the War between Good and Evil, innocent lives will be lost. Perhaps he's had someone close he cared about die and is dulled to the emotional impact of death. Sure he can waste time being nice and making reparations to the family which is ultimately more or less inconsequential to the well being of the world at large or...he could y'know keep trying to save the world by fighting against the BBEG.
Does the child's life have no value? Does the paladin not see parallels between his own loss and the loss the parents have experienced? Is it really a waste of time trying to ease the suffering of others? If none of that matters, why bother saving people at all?
I mean, absolutely defeating the bbeg matters, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore all the lesser evils along the way. It's a Paizo AP. The paladin has downtime.
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Grimdark Paladin who knows that in the War between Good and Evil, innocent lives will be lost. Perhaps he's had someone close he cared about die and is dulled to the emotional impact of death. Sure he can waste time being nice and making reparations to the family which is ultimately more or less inconsequential to the well being of the world at large or...he could y'know keep trying to save the world by fighting against the BBEG.Does the child's life have no value? Does the paladin not see parallels between his own loss and the loss the parents have experienced? Is it really a waste of time trying to ease the suffering of others? If none of that matters, why bother saving people at all?
I mean, absolutely defeating the bbeg matters, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore all the lesser evils along the way. It's a Paizo AP. The paladin has downtime.
Of course the Paladin will. Perhaps he sheds a tear as he turns away from the party and declares that they must push on ahead lest all is lost. He fights to try to prevent these losses in the first place. If a Champion of Righteous Power really has the time to go pat some backs and dig a grave instead of rushing onward to some new evil then go for it.
The Stoic Driven Paladin who fights for the Greater Good is totally a trope and deserves it's place.
When it's Downtime I can literally say, "My Paladin hunts down small time cults and exterminates them while the Wizard crafts and the Rogue goes to a brothel."
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Which i understand and know. I have played a few paladins in my time, one of whom was a paladin of 'Justice' but it was stated he was a paladin of Sarenrae, so until he made that switch and attoned or whatever it is that you do when you decide to go from being a champion of one god to another, he would be a powerless paladin, In my opinion, obviously its just my opinionPaladin of Sarenrae means as much as me saying Fighter of Sarenrae. There is no atonement for deciding that you don't want to follow that god anymore. Ex-Paladin and The Code of Conduct both have no mention of needing to follow your deities' tenants or losing your powers.
So the God is meaningless in providing power since the Paladin gains his power from his Lawful Good alignment and following his Code of Conduct.
if that is the case when he falls whom does he go to for atonement? I mean the book even states that you must intercede with your diety could just be lazy writing to conserve word counts. of course even in the very first paragraph describing a paladin in the core book it mentions 'not just spreading divine justice but to embody the teachingsof the virtuous dieties they serve.'
Also back to the OP He stated it was A paladin of Sarenrae not a paladin of justice, or a paladin of whatever ambigous moral decisions you want to get the cool paladin perks without playing a paladin of a god reason you have. Once more though your opinion versus mine, no harm no foul i suppose.
if that is the case when he falls whom does he go to for atonement? I mean the book even states that you must intercede with your diety could just be lazy writing to conserve word counts.Also back to the OP He stated it was A paladin of Sarenrae not a paladin of justice, or a paladin of whatever ambigous moral decisions you want to get the cool paladin perks without playing a paladin of a god reason you have. Once more though your opinion versus mine, no harm no foul i suppose.
-_-
I don't think what you get what I'm saying. The Deity is in no way granting the Paladin powers whatsoever. This isn't my opinion. That is literally what is in the book. This goes for most Paladins except for the ones in PFS who MUST get their power from a deity.
Again, the Code of Conduct and the passage on Ex-Paladins make no mention of needing to follow all your deity's tenants to keep your Paladin powers.
Atonement isn't cast by the Paladin. The caster of Atonement asks THEIR deity to intercede on the target's behalf.
Fluff text is great, but not exactly binding.
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if that is the case when he falls whom does he go to for atonement? I mean the book even states that you must intercede with your diety could just be lazy writing to conserve word counts.Also back to the OP He stated it was A paladin of Sarenrae not a paladin of justice, or a paladin of whatever ambigous moral decisions you want to get the cool paladin perks without playing a paladin of a god reason you have. Once more though your opinion versus mine, no harm no foul i suppose.
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I don't think what you get what I'm saying. The Deity is in no way granting the Paladin powers whatsoever. This isn't my opinion. That is literally what is in the book. This goes for most Paladins except for the ones in PFS who MUST get their power from a deity.
Again, the Code of Conduct and the passage on Ex-Paladins make no mention of needing to follow all your deity's tenants to keep your Paladin powers.
Atonement isn't cast by the Paladin. The caster of Atonement asks THEIR deity to intercede on the target's behalf.
Fluff text is great, but not exactly binding.
So what is the difference between your fluff text and what is rule then? cause i dont see it labeled so clearly for me to read. The entire core rulebook parts on paladins are rife with the word god and diety. Must not be important. That being said, I suppose RAW is as you state, i dont have the time to look everything up. If i were the one running the game, i would certainly check to see if Sarenrae was okay with the paladin sporting her name and symbols everywhere in a way not probably okay with her, and then do something about it. Perhaps i expect too much from paladins then
This is all good stuff that I will take into account. But it's not the act of killing the kid while not in control of himself but after that when he's shown what his actions have brought. Not going to his parents and saying sorry for their losse(I did rp a crying father kneeing over his dead son, his wife dead and the son the only thing he had left. To try and get some emotion) not asking for help from his god nothing just where is the next monster to kill.
After reading thought all of your points I've decided to work thought it for now and not making him fall, I will be adding in signs that his god is not happy I may even put him on a quest to try and show him the error of his ways. All this was suggested.
I know the whole alignment thing is personal in how you see it, I'm not trying to push it on any of my players on how they should react but that's a paladin you have to be LG you don't go around not caring you see people being oppressed and don't go well it's their own fault.
I hope we can get more discussion out of this it's all good, I was alittle lost in it all again not want to be seen taking things away from my players.
I don't get why he's playing a paladin.
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Regarding the OP.
The paladin was protecting a group of kids from a monster. He became confused and cut one of the kids in half, in plain view of the others, who rightly went crazy with fear at seeing one of their friends brutally murdered.
I am playing the CG wizard in this party. During the combat I quickly rolled my checks to identify the confusion effect and then started thinking about how I was going to roleplay the aftermath with the paladin. I was going to explain to him that it wasn't his fault and that he shouldn't blame himself, we would get the guys truly responsible etc etc.
What I wasn't prepared for was his response of; "Yeah I know it's not my fault, let's go." That's pretty much verbatim.
My character was disgusted with his complete lack of concern. Sure he wasn't ultimately responsible for what happened but I absolutely expected him to show remorse, to come to his senses, drop his weapon from trembling hands and cry to the heavens. But no. He pretty much wiped the blood from his sword and said; "Next?"
I don't know if I'd make him Fall based on this because he wasn't responsible for the act itself, but in my opinion he is walking a fine line. Someone earlier said he is mechanically playing a paladin without roleplaying one and that is accurate from my perspective. Perhaps I have a view of paladins that doesn't fit with the RAW according to the posts above.
Perhaps I have a view of paladins that doesn't fit with the RAW according to the posts above.
That's a humble statement, kudos to you. The bigger issue IMO is it seems like a huge contingency of gamers only care about the RAW.
I'm pretty sure your view of paladins fits with everything that's ever been written about them in any edition of the game since ever. But that is just "fluff", right? The real reason to play a paladin is dpr and nice saves and swift action self-healing.
Grimdark Paladin who knows that in the War between Good and Evil, innocent lives will be lost. Perhaps he's had someone close he cared about die and is dulled to the emotional impact of death. Sure he can waste time being nice and making reparations to the family which is ultimately more or less inconsequential to the well being of the world at large or...he could y'know keep trying to save the world by fighting against the BBEG.
Sounds good, sounds metal.
I suspect the player was new or not really prepared for this (he didn't have a thread to prep his response in) so on he went. I like lengthy rp a great deal, but we shouldn't force someone to pretend to be remorseful at the table or their character falls. The paladin had bigger things on his plate evidently, or maybe indeed, as was identified, the paladin is wise enough to know the real stakes in the battle against evil? If his goddess wants to punish him for not being remorseful, that is the choice the dm will make.
Now I want to see variant Hamlet the hesitating paladin. Guess we can call him Amleth. ;)
Regarding the OP.
The paladin was protecting a group of kids from a monster. He became confused and cut one of the kids in half, in plain view of the others, who rightly went crazy with fear at seeing one of their friends brutally murdered.
I am playing the CG wizard in this party. During the combat I quickly rolled my checks to identify the confusion effect and then started thinking about how I was going to roleplay the aftermath with the paladin. I was going to explain to him that it wasn't his fault and that he shouldn't blame himself, we would get the guys truly responsible etc etc.
What I wasn't prepared for was his response of; "Yeah I know it's not my fault, let's go." That's pretty much verbatim.
My character was disgusted with his complete lack of concern. Sure he wasn't ultimately responsible for what happened but I absolutely expected him to show remorse, to come to his senses, drop his weapon from trembling hands and cry to the heavens. But no. He pretty much wiped the blood from his sword and said; "Next?"
I don't know if I'd make him Fall based on this because he wasn't responsible for the act itself, but in my opinion he is walking a fine line. Someone earlier said he is mechanically playing a paladin without roleplaying one and that is accurate from my perspective. Perhaps I have a view of paladins that doesn't fit with the RAW according to the posts above.
I respect your commitment to rp and in character dialogue. Go you champ; but if the paladin dramatically dropped their sword and cried to the heavens how are they meant to quickly proceed and root out the next or greater evil?
In other news, not all characters are emotional or played emotionally. Some would be ashamed to play a character so eager to toss their sword down and bemoan a casualty. Where is their pride and self control? It seems a little bit dramatic don't you think? Is a paladin forged in years of discipline and martial training always going to be so dramatic and mournful over one child killed by foul magical manipulation? I don't think that follows.
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Dramatic, yes. Over-dramatic, mmmm maybe..? That's how I would play it (which I totally agree isn't the 'right' or 'best' way because there is no such thing. Everyone can play their characters how they want, right?)
I don't know. Maybe it's because I love the holy champion trope so much that it annoyed me. The idea of this paladin forged in years of discipline and martial training who, despite all of that, was not mentally strong enough to fend off the evil influence and killed a child. I think that should have affected him somehow. Whether it was remorse or outrage at becoming a puppet of evil - something. For the record, the player is actually a pretty strong role-player so I just think it was such a wasted opportunity.
My wizard and his paladin aren't getting along very well at the moment. I think I accused him of being no better than the people we were after, with great power comes great responsibility and so on. So that's good rp potential there. But back to the original point, some of the actions this player is taking as a paladin are questionable (IMO) and I do think it's a matter of time before the GM is justified in making him Fall.
Grimdark Paladin who knows that in the War between Good and Evil, innocent lives will be lost. Perhaps he's had someone close he cared about die and is dulled to the emotional impact of death. Sure he can waste time being nice and making reparations to the family which is ultimately more or less inconsequential to the well being of the world at large or...he could y'know keep trying to save the world by fighting against the BBEG.Does the child's life have no value? Does the paladin not see parallels between his own loss and the loss the parents have experienced? Is it really a waste of time trying to ease the suffering of others? If none of that matters, why bother saving people at all?
I mean, absolutely defeating the bbeg matters, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore all the lesser evils along the way. It's a Paizo AP. The paladin has downtime.
Of course the Paladin will. Perhaps he sheds a tear as he turns away from the party and declares that they must push on ahead lest all is lost. He fights to try to prevent these losses in the first place. If a Champion of Righteous Power really has the time to go pat some backs and dig a grave instead of rushing onward to some new evil then go for it.
The Stoic Driven Paladin who fights for the Greater Good is totally a trope and deserves it's place.
When it's Downtime I can literally say, "My Paladin hunts down small time cults and exterminates them while the Wizard crafts and the Rogue goes to a brothel."
Soloing small time cults is the paladin down-time bread and butter. Sometimes the law objects to this, but they know not the threat these cults pose.
Reminds me of trying to find the words for my pally to explain to the constables why the witch's house was burning, and why my pally had been found leaving the burning residence while doing the cool guys' don't look at explosions thing.
Dramatic, yes. Over-dramatic, mmmm maybe..? That's how I would play it (which I totally agree isn't the 'right' or 'best' way because there is no such thing. Everyone can play their characters how they want, right?)
I don't know. Maybe it's because I love the holy champion trope so much that it annoyed me. The idea of this paladin forged in years of discipline and martial training who, despite all of that, was not mentally strong enough to fend off the evil influence and killed a child. I think that should have affected him somehow. Whether it was remorse or outrage at becoming a puppet of evil - something. For the record, the player is actually a pretty strong role-player so I just think it was such a wasted opportunity.
My wizard and his paladin aren't getting along very well at the moment. I think I accused him of being no better than the people we were after, with great power comes great responsibility and so on. So that's good rp potential there. But back to the original point, some of the actions this player is taking as a paladin are questionable (IMO) and I do think it's a matter of time before the GM is justified in making him Fall.
Yep, absolutely, but it could affect him later. The single tear in a quiet moment, discussion about it when it is appropriate, talking to a cleric about these issues (I love a good Cadfael scene). But being demanding about remorse is very very pushy.
No, be emotional how I expect your char to be. Your ideas about playing your character be damned! No one needs that. Of course you can entirely play your character as disgusted and furious, good rp potential there.
ST0ic p@ladin2 4 7ife.
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He wasn't strong willed enough to fend off the forces of evil, he fell to their corruption, and through this wicked influence his hands spilt the most innocent of blood.
Fall. He falls.
He failed. His hands and his blade cut down a small child in cold blood. He cannot be a paladin.
The powers of evil have triumphed, and his soul and heart have lost the grace of the gods.
From the perspective of the character, he felt his blade cut into a small child; he felt the resistance give way as the cold steel cleaved through bone and sinew. He experienced what it is to murder a child.
There is NO WAY this okay.
None. It is unforgivable.
And yet... the gods in their greatness may yet forgive him. If he repents, if he truly repents with every fiber of his being and seeks forgiveness.
If he dedicates himself to mastering his inner resilience so that he never fall to fell magic control again.
Until then, Sarenrae wouldn't have anything to do with this disgraceful warrior. Her light isn't for the irredeemable, for them, they get to taste her fire.
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His hands, his blade, but not his will, not his choice.
One mind affecting spell gets through and you fall? That is ridiculous.
As for what the paladin felt, while under the confusion spell he is certainly not clear of mind or thought, being confused. Clearly feeling he did it is false, he wasn't in control.
Quite poetic Remy, and a waste of a palyer's time and a threat to the continuity of the game. Losing so many class features to a spell with the likelihood of getting quite sidetracked to get this char restored for something they didn't actually willingly do? What a punishment for playing a paladin. lol.
Some of you will... fall for anything.
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He wasn't strong willed enough to fend off the forces of evil, he fell to their corruption, and through this wicked influence his hands spilt the most innocent of blood.
Fall. He falls.
He failed. His hands and his blade cut down a small child in cold blood. He cannot be a paladin.
The powers of evil have triumphed, and his soul and heart have lost the grace of the gods.
From the perspective of the character, he felt his blade cut into a small child; he felt the resistance give way as the cold steel cleaved through bone and sinew. He experienced what it is to murder a child.
There is NO WAY this okay.
None. It is unforgivable.
And yet... the gods in their greatness may yet forgive him. If he repents, if he truly repents with every fiber of his being and seeks forgiveness.
If he dedicates himself to mastering his inner resilience so that he never fall to fell magic control again.
Until then, Sarenrae wouldn't have anything to do with this disgraceful warrior. Her light isn't for the irredeemable, for them, they get to taste her fire.
Did you max ranks in hyperbole?
How is what the paladin did unforgivable? They didn't kill the child. Another caused them to do it.
His hands, his blade, but not his will, not his choice.
One mind affecting spell gets through and you fall? That is ridiculous.
As for what the paladin felt, while under the confusion spell he is certainly not clear of mind or thought, being confused. Clearly feeling he did it is false, he wasn't in control.
Quite poetic Remy, and a waste of a palyer's time and a threat to the continuity of the game. Losing so many class features to a spell with the likelihood of getting quite sidetracked to get this char restored for something they didn't actually willingly do? What a punishment for playing a paladin. lol.
Some of you will... fall for anything.
It isn't a punishment, first off, it is an opportunity to tell an amazing story.
Secondly, yes, just takes murdering a small child just the one time to render you not a paladin.
He failed to resist the spell. That is on him. He allowed dark magics to use him for their wicked purposes.
He could have trained his mind better, he could have tried to resist it better, to steel his will against outside influences. But he failed, and then did deeds the most foul as a result.
He is culpable. He should feel culpable. He watched it happen, he saw it, felt it, experienced it.
This should be driving him mad with guilt. He is a paladin. And if it isn’t feeling the guilt of it wrack him? Well, he was a paladin.
Diminish Abilities: the Amazing Story
First chapter
It's not your fault, but...
Allowing dark magics to use him, would require he voluntarily failed the save. Which did not happen.
Murdering one child would cause the fall, if he chose to do it (and got a good run up). If other people use their spells to kill children, that does not make the paladin fall.
He didn't do it, it was the cheshire cat.
He isn't culpable, he was under confusion, that doesn't mean we saw it, felt it or experienced it unless the dm says that he saw it, felt it and experienced it even with his buzzed out mind.
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His hands, his blade, but not his will, not his choice.
One mind affecting spell gets through and you fall? That is ridiculous.
If you personally slay an innocent as a result? Failing a Will save = being weak willed. The fact that this was a dice roll rather than a player decision changes nothing. It was his failure, his responsibility.
Did you max ranks in hyperbole?
How is what the paladin did unforgivable? They didn't kill the child. Another caused them to do it.
He still did it.
His hands, his blade. He killed a small child.
Was there a reason? Yeah sure there was. But he still just killed a child.
What is a paladin?
"select, worthy few"
"noble souls"
"embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve"
Here is a fun line "Although their convictions might lead them into conflict with the very souls they would save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future."
This paladin isn't 'weathering' this 'challenge'. He is trying to ignore it nd pretend it didn't happen.
He, as a paladin, should face this challenge. He must endure it, feel the guilt of his personal failings, it should eat at him. He allowed himself to murder a child.
Murdering an innocent child is that 'unforgivable act' I mentioned earlier.
If he isn't remorseful, or downright ripped apart emotionally, or filled with vengeance and holy wrath... some kind of human reaction, it means he is cold and inhuman, sociopathic even.
That isn't lawful good. That certainly isn't paladin.
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Fun note:
"Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."
They should be arresting or turning themselves in to be judged by the powers of the land. If they don't, they are violating the code. He must face judgment for his actions, his soul should be judged.
(That is what the atonement spell does.)
You could have +15 will and still roll badly. I've done it (and passed very high dcs on -2). The roll does not mean the pally was weak willed or that it was his fault or that he chose to fail.
The source of the confusion is responsible actually, you know, them spraying about the confusion effects turning people loopy. Unless the pally shot themselves with that spell, lol.
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You are right of course, DM. Players should not have any of those bothersome restrictions on their Paladin! I mean, after all, he is just a magically empowered fighter with a host of powers granted by the divine but, those restrictions are just fluff! Fluff that gets in the way of his ability to do a lot of damage to BBEGs while healing himself!
We can't have that! Enforcing those restrictions and adding flavor to the character beyond being just another armored kill machine might very well limit someone's fun!
It's not like they decided to be a Paladin for the story or RP of being a champion of good or anything... it's all about the numbers man!
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You could have +15 will and still roll badly. I've done it (and passed very high dcs on -2). The roll does not mean the pally was weak willed or that it was his fault or that he chose to fail.
The source of the confusion is responsible actually, you know, them spraying about the confusion effects turning people loopy. Unless the pally shot themselves with that spell, lol.
So he had a moment of weakness and succumbed to the powers of evil. Next step: Repent for his weakness.
If he skips that step: He falls.
Did you max ranks in hyperbole?
How is what the paladin did unforgivable? They didn't kill the child. Another caused them to do it.
He still did it.
His hands, his blade. He killed a small child.
Was there a reason? Yeah sure there was. But he still just killed a child.
What is a paladin?
"select, worthy few"
"noble souls"
"embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve"
Here is a fun line "Although their convictions might lead them into conflict with the very souls they would save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future."
This paladin isn't 'weathering' this 'challenge'. He is trying to ignore it nd pretend it didn't happen.
He, as a paladin, shoould face this challenge. He must endure it, feel the guilt of his personal failings, it should eat at him. He allowed himself to murder a child.
Murdering an innocent child is that 'unforgivable act' I mentioned earlier.
If he isn't remorseful, or downright ripped apart emotionally, or filled with vengeance and holy wrath... some kid of human reaction, it means he is cold and inhuman, sociopathic even.
That isn't lawful good. That certainly isn't paladin.
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Fun note:
"Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."
They should be arresting or turning themselves in to be judged by the powers of the land. If they don't, they are violating the code. He must face judgment for his actions, his soul should be judged.
(That is what the atonement spell does.)
Hyperbole before, now you are being very shifty with language.
It wasn't murder, it was at most manslaughter. You know, with the not actually choosing to kill a child.
Now, got something quite amusing and less repetitive. Sharing this thread with a friend and many laughs are being had. Here is what he had to say:
"It should just be said that paladins do a semester subject on the morality of actions while under hostile enchantment spells, with the goal of conditioning them to shrug such actions off.
passing requires attendance at all lectures and a 75% on the moral relativism exam
And im saying, paladins have been around for centuries within the canon, and this s@%+ would have been convered by the time the second generation were getting trained.
Pretty easy to remove a serious type disadvantage against enchanters with a little bit of coaching and preparation, lol:
"we've noticed that all our guys commit suicide when they face mind control spells. aside from beefing our will saves, we're also thinking of implementing a preventive grief and guilt counselling unit as a core subject of the training"
End of my friend's contributions.
So yeah, no training paladin prep or coverage/knowledge of paladins falling due to enchantments or being forced into falling with basic spells? No notice, sorry sir Nooblett, if this hits you, you are toast. Not only will you do horrible things to innocents and possibly your mother, you will fall too! It sucks to be us doesn't it?
Someone needs more world building (and fleshing out what is known by pallies).
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Being a paladin isn't easy. And it isn't supposed to be. It is hard, it is painful, it should take everything the character has, every ounce of his conviction and resolve.
"paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future."
They’re not simply fighters with cool anti-evil abilities. You can get that with Fighter/Cleric or Fighter/Oracle.
They are paladins, the select worthy few.
You could have +15 will and still roll badly. I've done it (and passed very high dcs on -2). The roll does not mean the pally was weak willed or that it was his fault or that he chose to fail.
The source of the confusion is responsible actually, you know, them spraying about the confusion effects turning people loopy. Unless the pally shot themselves with that spell, lol.
So he had a moment of weakness and succumbed to the powers of evil. Next step: Repent for his weakness.
If he skips that step: He falls.
Wait, does he have to stop the chase on evil and go off and repent? If he continues the chase does he fall while doing the right thing and seeking out evil?
This is like a game show where the paladin never wins.
Being a paladin isn't easy. And it isn't supposed to be. It is hard, it is painful, it should take everything the character has, every ounce of his conviction and resolve.
"paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future."
They’re not simply fighters with cool anti-evil abilities. You can get that with Fighter/Cleric or Fighter/Oracle.
They are paladins, the select worthy few.
Resolve and effort is immaterial, if you fail even when you have no control. If you fail even when you do not "do", conviction doesn't come into it.
How cruel the gods of the paladins are, ruthless bureaucrats who have devised rule systems within which it is impossible to succeed, but you will be blamed as though you intentionally f%$@ed things up.
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it is impossible to succeed, but you will be blamed as though you intentionally f$#~ed things up.
Not at all. That's why restoring his powers is a simple and free spell away, by RAW. Atonement costs money if you intentionally break your vows. If you did it under compulsion, you still need the spell, but it's a freebie.
But, yes, being a paladin is hard. That's kind of the point.
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You could have +15 will and still roll badly. I've done it (and passed very high dcs on -2). The roll does not mean the pally was weak willed or that it was his fault or that he chose to fail.
The source of the confusion is responsible actually, you know, them spraying about the confusion effects turning people loopy. Unless the pally shot themselves with that spell, lol.
So he had a moment of weakness and succumbed to the powers of evil. Next step: Repent for his weakness.
If he skips that step: He falls.
Wait, does he have to stop the chase on evil and go off and repent? If he continues the chase does he fall while doing the right thing and seeking out evil?
This is like a game show where the paladin never wins.
Perhaps you should reread the situation. You may have missed the part where the paladin simply shrugged off the killing of a child with his own hands as if it meant nothing.
That isn't a paladin. That is a cold heartless mercenary, at best. That is an evil attitude.
People who are adept at justifying away their actions aren't pillars of good. His hands spilt blood, his hands must atone. He knows he isn't 100% responsible, but he is still responsible, he played a part... and not a small part, in the killing of a child.
There are lots of ways he could atone, not just the atonement spell. Actually caring, for starters, would help his cause.
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Did you max ranks in hyperbole?
How is what the paladin did unforgivable? They didn't kill the child. Another caused them to do it.
He still did it.
His hands, his blade. He killed a small child.
Was there a reason? Yeah sure there was. But he still just killed a child.
What is a paladin?
"select, worthy few"
"noble souls"
"embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve"
Here is a fun line "Although their convictions might lead them into conflict with the very souls they would save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future."
This paladin isn't 'weathering' this 'challenge'. He is trying to ignore it nd pretend it didn't happen.
He, as a paladin, shoould face this challenge. He must endure it, feel the guilt of his personal failings, it should eat at him. He allowed himself to murder a child.
Murdering an innocent child is that 'unforgivable act' I mentioned earlier.
If he isn't remorseful, or downright ripped apart emotionally, or filled with vengeance and holy wrath... some kid of human reaction, it means he is cold and inhuman, sociopathic even.
That isn't lawful good. That certainly isn't paladin.
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Fun note:
"Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."
They should be arresting or turning themselves in to be judged by the powers of the land. If they don't, they are violating the code. He must face judgment for his actions, his soul should be judged.
(That is what the atonement spell does.)
Hyperbole before, now you are being very shifty with language.
It wasn't murder, it was at most manslaughter. You...
It wasnt murder it was at most manslaughter.... well hell give him a parade then manslaughter... thats not that bad right /sarcasm.
Did you read that line aloud before you said it there underthe bridge? With a straight face?
Being a paladin isn't easy. And it isn't supposed to be. It is hard, it is painful, it should take everything the character has, every ounce of his conviction and resolve.
"paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future."
They’re not simply fighters with cool anti-evil abilities. You can get that with Fighter/Cleric or Fighter/Oracle.
They are paladins, the select worthy few.
Resolve and effort is immaterial, if you fail even when you have no control. If you fail even when you do not "do", conviction doesn't come into it.
How cruel the gods of the paladins are, ruthless bureaucrats who have devised rule systems within which it is impossible to succeed, but you will be blamed as though you intentionally f@&$ed things up.
Are you arguing that paladins should be held to the same moral standards as regular folk???
Haha.
Remy
He acknowledged he didn't do it, then he wanted to move on and not get caught up on the emotional performance. Spells were involved, not the choice of the pally.
You keep using the emotive words of evil, cold, heartless, killing of a child. Just stop, it is ridiculous. You are trying to blow this up with your language when he isn't responsible, he didn't chose to do it and the responsible party is the one that let loose the spell.
As for actually caring and being so demanding that a player be sympathetic right then, please stop telling others how they should play their characters. Stoicism is not evil (and works with a martial character with warrior monastic training), and focusing on the major events of tackling greater evils and proceeding fits. Not every mistake needs a paladin to stop and cry.
The player is clearly playing the paladin as all business and not one to dwell on failures. He is rping but not rping in the way you like. Please come to terms with your bias here.
Being a paladin isn't easy. And it isn't supposed to be. It is hard, it is painful, it should take everything the character has, every ounce of his conviction and resolve.
"paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future."
They’re not simply fighters with cool anti-evil abilities. You can get that with Fighter/Cleric or Fighter/Oracle.
They are paladins, the select worthy few.
Resolve and effort is immaterial, if you fail even when you have no control. If you fail even when you do not "do", conviction doesn't come into it.
How cruel the gods of the paladins are, ruthless bureaucrats who have devised rule systems within which it is impossible to succeed, but you will be blamed as though you intentionally f@&$ed things up.
Are you arguing that paladins should be held to the same moral standards as regular folk???
Haha.
You don't seem to be getting it.
I am saying the code is impossible if it is one that you fail even when you don't act, or have the control to act. So its not about what you do or choose, its about you failing when certain events come up.
If your position is, in the case of event A (confusion and a casualty) regardless of what you do you fail and fall. That isn't fair, it is impossible to successfully navigate.
That is what I find clear rubbish, and harmful to game play.
That is not hypocritical because:
a) I am not playing his character (for him).
b) I am not saying how he should be playing his character.
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but yet you clearly know how he was playing the charector. I mean if your playing the devils advocate cool fine its whatever. I guess you would be against a cleric losing his class abilites for going against the will of his god as well then, cause you know he would be useles til he cleared that faux paux up right?
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Remy
He acknowledged he didn't do it, then he wanted to move on and not get caught up on the emotional performance. Spells were involved, not the choice of the pally.
You keep using the emotive words of evil, cold, heartless, killing of a child. Just stop, it is ridiculous. You are trying to blow this up with your language when he isn't responsible, he didn't chose to do it and the responsible party is the one that let loose the spell.
As for actually caring and being so demanding that a player be sympathetic right then, please stop telling others how they should play their characters. Stoicism is not evil (and works with a martial character with warrior monastic training), and focusing on the major events of tackling greater evils and proceeding fits. Not every mistake needs a paladin to stop and cry.
The player is clearly playing the paladin as all business and not one to dwell on failures. He is rping but not rping in the way you like. Please come to terms with your bias here.
But he did do it. His character killed the child. Cut him in twain.
Killing an innocent child is 'evil'. I'm sorry you don't like my fancy words... they are expressive and specific. I'm not sure why you would take offense to that, my apologies, but I am very likely to continue utilizing them.
I'm using the words that fit the situation... an innocent little child was slaughtered by a paladin. That doesn't evoke a reaction from you? That is heart wrenching to me, it should be devastating to the paladin.
Yeah yeah, I know it is just a fictional character, but it is still a sad story. But if the main character, whose hands did the chopping, doesn't even care??
That is cold. Cold as ice. That isn't stoic, that is sociopathic. Pathological disinterest in the value of human life.
It isn't simply the failed will save that gets this paladin in hot water, but his reaction to it as well.
Shrugging it off... is heartless.
Paladins aren't heatless.
They just aren't.
Fighters can be, rogues and assassins too. Honestly quite a number of character concepts fill that heartless sellsword style... paladin just isn't it.
In a moment of confusion, he killed a small innocent child.
I don't know how you cannot see why that should be affecting the paladin. Nor why the fact that it isn't affecting him means he is truly evil.
You don't seem to be getting it.
How cruel the gods of the paladins are, ruthless bureaucrats who have devised rule systems within which it is impossible to succeed, but you will be blamed as though you intentionally f@&$ed things up.
Are you arguing that paladins should be held to the same moral standards as regular folk???
Haha.
Actually, I think he gets it quite well.
I am saying the code is impossible if it is one that you fail even when you don't act, or have the control to act.
But it's not about "failing to act." It's about failing to make even a token effort to live up to the standards you have agreed to accept. Moral lapses are expected, but so is atonement. A character who gets injured is expected to seek healing; a character with ability damage is expected to seek restoration, an a paladin who fails a will save will probably seek out atonement.
So its not about what you do or choose, its about you failing when certain events come up.
Nope. It's about how you react when those events come up.
If your position is, in the case of event A (confusion and a casualty) regardless of what you do you fail and fall. That isn't fair, it is impossible to successfully navigate.
Not at all. It is, in fact, easy to navigate. Repent and atone.
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The player is clearly playing the paladin as all business
And paladins are NOT "all business."
All business is neutral, not good.
To quote a well-known soul in torment, "Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, benevolence, were all my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"
If he's playing a paladin as "all business," he's not playing a paladin.
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Keep in mind, he failed a savings throw.
Bad things happen to characters who fail savings throws. That is the nature of the game.
Paladins in specific have a vulnerability to morality based actions. If they perform actions that are evil, or against the code, they lose class abilities.
They might have high ACs, amazing saves, and self healing for days… but they have a vulnerability, they have to act like paladins.
This one isn’t acting like a paladin, so he doesn’t get to be one anymore.
Thems the dice if you decide to play a class with morality hardwired into it.
The DM is final arbitrator here, of course. If I were DMing this game, he'd be toast. I'm not, so my opinion is just that, an opinion.
Keep in mind, he failed a savings throw.
Bad things happen to characters who fail savings throws. That is the nature of the game.
That's a very good description. If he'd missed a save against a petrification effect, he'd need a spell, probably stone to flesh, and no one would bat an eyelash. If he'd missed a saving throw against slay living, he'd need a raise dead and then a restoration to get rid of the negative level.... and again no one would quibble.
And if he were playing a character with a vulnerability to a certain element, he would be more likely to need those spells when attacked with them than a "normal" baseline character like a human fighter.
He missed a saving throw against an attack on his behavior. Instead of petrifying or killing him, it strips him of his powers. This is an issue? (Actually, he's probably better off; not only is he still useful, even as a fighter without bonus feats, but atonement is free, while restoration is rather expensive.)
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Thems the dice if you decide to play a class with morality hardwired into it.
All jokes, sarcasm and hyperbole aside, that is ultimately what it comes down to and where the massive disconnect seems to be with a large number of people.
There is a large contingent of players frequenting these forums who don't think there should be any limiting factors on... anything really. Ludicrous trait and feat and race combinations that are OK because the rules don't strictly forbid them, utter disregard for alignment, hand waving of any class restrictions that are not 100% mechanical, ridiculously permissive interpretations of the rules in order to eek out game breaking numbers... basically a mentality that any form of limitation is a hindrance to someone's fun so none should be applied, because clearly they are all fluff and don't mean anything.
All jokes, sarcasm and hyperbole aside, that is ultimately what it comes down to and where the massive disconnect seems to be with a large number of people.
Thems the dice if you decide to play a class with morality hardwired into it.
I agree. One of the defining class features of a paladin is you have to behave like a paladin, and the rules are quite explicit that the game master is the judge of alignment-related issues, as well as the person making decisions on behalf of the gods.
As a player, I don't get to say "no, that's not how the Hurricane King would act." The Hurricane King is an NPC and acts as the GM plays him. But Saranrae is also an NPC....
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@Remy Blaster
You get where i'm coming from, the whole confusion i can forgive he was not in control of himself. It's everything after that the death of a kid will affect anyone but he just brushed it off arguing he shouldn't feel anything because he wasn't in control of himself and as i said it was the wizard(JamZilla) who wanted to bring the child back.
This was all put on the back burner and seems to have been forgotten by most of my players(I didn't forget) There my be some crying and shouting but i think i'm going to have to do something you can't be as powerful as a paladin and play him like a CN, i don't expect 100% role playing from the table but at least try and play within your alignment.
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I have to say I agree with TheNine and Remy on this.
Being a player in this game and seeing how this situation played out, my instant reaction was to Fall. Not so much for killing the child in the first place, but not having any kind of emotional reaction to it.
I would definitely not expect an LG paladin to use slippery lawyer language like "I'm not paying for raise dead, it's not my responsibility because I was confused." That's for rogues and fighters. IMO a paladin should move heaven and earth to put this right. I think for any LG character there should be some kind of emotional response to this - doubly so for a paladin. Now whether that's outrage and a call to arms to get the bastards or a full emotional breakdown - fine. But not just a case of "I am not culpable in any way because I was confused."
I gotta say, why is it that so many paladins are flat out offended and just seem mind boggled that they would be asked to Atone for behavior unbecoming.
Instead I see all kinds of excuses about why they should not have to get a free atonement spell cast.