Magus "Extra Attack" Question


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Hey guys, I know this question has already been addressed in a few forums. I've shown my DM them, and he still doesn't believe me. But I want to get an actual confirmation on this board. The Magus' Spell Combat/Spell Strike abilities allow him to cast a touch spell through his sword (As a sword strike attack) AND THEN get his full round of attacks (In this case 2 as a level 9 character). If someone could confirm or deny this for me that would be great as my DM and another veteran player doesn't believe me when I poise this, saying the forums are only for 'house rules'.


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yes... Just show them the book to read it for themselves.

Lantern Lodge

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If they want something definitive from the developers, the FAQ questions about the magus in the Complete Magic faq should be clear enough.

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It's two-weapon fighting with a spell in one hand and a weapon in another.

Ask them how many attacks a Rogue at 9th level would have with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.


@Nefreet What they're arguing though is that I can use that spell (Shocking Grasp for example) as a regular 'touch' spell attack itself. But not channel through my blade as the touch attack.


You can. Spell Combat does not preclude Spellstrike. Spell Combat gives you your full attack and lets you cast a spell. Spellstrike says, "WHENEVER you cast a touch range spell..." you can deliver it through the sword instead.

So full attack and shocking grasp sword attack with Spell Combat is solid.

Magus are stupid strong and its no surprise that your gaming group is having misgivings.

Grand Lodge

PrinceofVisigon wrote:
@Nefreet What they're arguing though is that I can use that spell (Shocking Grasp for example) as a regular 'touch' spell attack itself. But not channel through my blade as the touch attack.

You can use spellstrike with any touch-range spell from the magus spell list that you cast. It's a free action as part of casting the spell, replacing the free touch attack you'd get normally.

When this interacts with spell combat, it's an extra attack on top of your iterative attacks with your primary weapon, as you described.

If your spell gives you multiple touches, you can also choose to apply those with your other weapon attacks.


I'm not certain how much more explicit you can get when the text in the class actually notes that you can combine Spell Combat with Spellstrike:

Spellstrike wrote:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.

Emphasis mine.

Magus can be a very potent combatant, but I will say that at mid-level you'll find it necessary to branch out from the 'Shocking Grasp' build, as once things start getting spell resistance or regularly having immunity to electricity (I'm looking at you, every demon in the darn game) it doesn't work as well.


Thanks guys, I REALLY appreciate the clarification. I really don't mind if this gets DM overruled, but I just wanted to make sure I was in the right rules wise on my argument for this. I can see how it could be considered OP though.

Lantern Lodge

As far as being considered op goes, remember to keep in mind what a power-attacking barbarian or a smiting paladin can dish out. The magus can manage a comparable number, but rarely as often. Remember that a static +10 is about the same a 3d6.


I decided to create another character to continue the campaign who would actually help. I created a magus; firstly, because it fit my character (I am big in role play), secondly, for it's rules. I felt the double attack makes it a very useful asset to the group. I am running into the problem that my DM is still denying me my secondary attack. What is your advice? Thank you for all your rulings above.


PrinceofVisigon wrote:
Thanks guys, I REALLY appreciate the clarification. I really don't mind if this gets DM overruled, but I just wanted to make sure I was in the right rules wise on my argument for this. I can see how it could be considered OP though.

I'm playing a magus in my campaign, from the 1st level. For now, it isn't OP, because the magus is heavily MAD (multiple abilities dependence). I'd built a magus with high str and low dex, and I can assure you that, while I can have a lot of output damage, I'm still suffering for AC and saves (I play an elf, so even the -2 con hurt). Our paladin goes out with a higher dpr (he hit more often than me, and deal 2d6+12 or so dmg per hit, not to speak of when he crit or smite evil). Also the BAB is not the top, so the opportunity of casting and combat in the same round is a life saver.

Quote:
I am running into the problem that my DM is still denying me my secondary attack. What is your advice?

Kill the DM :D

Really, if he doesn't get how magus work, and he don't want to understand, change class. Spell combat is the signature ability of the magus, and it's a timesaver. If he understood, but still deny it, change class. I couldn't stand playing a lame magus.


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PrinceofVisigon wrote:
I decided to create another character to continue the campaign who would actually help. I created a magus; firstly, because it fit my character (I am big in role play), secondly, for it's rules. I felt the double attack makes it a very useful asset to the group. I am running into the problem that my DM is still denying me my secondary attack. What is your advice?

Make a new class. If someone said that, oh, yes, you can make a Barbarian but you can't use Rage because it's overpowered, someone either doesn't understand the barbarian or simply doesn't like it. Either way, don't play that class with that person.


PrinceofVisigon wrote:
I decided to create another character to continue the campaign who would actually help. I created a magus; firstly, because it fit my character (I am big in role play), secondly, for it's rules. I felt the double attack makes it a very useful asset to the group. I am running into the problem that my DM is still denying me my secondary attack. What is your advice? Thank you for all your rulings above.

If you showed him the sentence in the book that explicitly allows this, and he's still denying it, he's house ruling it out and I'd recommend rebuilding as not a magus or.... killing the DM.


If you've shown him the relevant text and he still disagrees, then I only have two further suggestions:

-Ask the GM to come onto the thread. We can try and provide links to designer quotes that show that the secondary attack is perfectly legal
-Re-roll as something other than a Magus

Note that I'm pretty sure that advocating murder - even in jest - isn't a good idea, not only socially but also in regards to following forum rules. :P


Well, he's not 'house ruling' it. He referred me to the Magus page for an official FAQ from Paizo and seemingly has not taken my suggestion to post his ruling on this board. Not trying to grief him, I know DM is a hard position to play (doing it myself too) just frustrating when it won't even be admitted that I'm right on this matter and the other characters in the campaign are very powerful half beings, powerful magic users or a combination of that. Not supposed to turn into a venting session. But I wanted you all to know I really appreciate the input.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
PrinceofVisigon wrote:
@Nefreet What they're arguing though is that I can use that spell (Shocking Grasp for example) as a regular 'touch' spell attack itself. But not channel through my blade as the touch attack.
FAQ wrote:

Magus: Can a magus use spellstrike (page 10) to cast a touch spell, move, and make a melee attack with a weapon to deliver the touch spell, all in the same round?

Yes. Other than deploying the spell with a melee weapon attack instead of a melee touch attack, the magus spellstrike ability doesn’t change the normal rules for using touch spells in combat (Core Rulebook page 185). So, just like casting a touch spell, a magus could use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, take a move toward an enemy, then (as a free action) make a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell.

On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.

Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.

—Sean K Reynolds, 02/07/12

It is hard to see how the rule text will not be sufficient, but this will help?

I really don't see how he can miss how spellstrike work or what is his objection.
If you can't deliver shocking grasp through your weapon while using spellstrike, what spells can be delivered with the weapon while using spellstrike?


PrinceofVisigon wrote:
Well, he's not 'house ruling' it. He referred me to the Magus page for an official FAQ from Paizo and seemingly has not taken my suggestion to post his ruling on this board. Not trying to grief him, I know DM is a hard position to play (doing it myself too) just frustrating when it won't even be admitted that I'm right on this matter and the other characters in the campaign are very powerful half beings, powerful magic users or a combination of that. Not supposed to turn into a venting session. But I wanted you all to know I really appreciate the input.

Uh? So, he don't understand the spellstrike mechanich. Basically, and it's right in the rules, he can cast a spell, and can do all of his attack with other hand. That's spell combat. If he cast a touch spell, he get a free touch attack. The magus has the option to deliver touch attacks via weapon instead of touch or unarmed strikes. Anyway, if you want to explain better: The Fabolous, Awesome, Marvelous, Super-Duper Really Cool Grick's Guide to Spell Combat and Spellstrike.

Maybe your master (that seems a little childish, if think that in these boards we don't know the rules) don't want to read, but this guide will help you, and it gather all the relevant rules about this thing.


Xaratherus wrote:

I'm not certain how much more explicit you can get when the text in the class actually notes that you can combine Spell Combat with Spellstrike:

Spellstrike wrote:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.

Emphasis mine.

Magus can be a very potent combatant, but I will say that at mid-level you'll find it necessary to branch out from the 'Shocking Grasp' build, as once things start getting spell resistance or regularly having immunity to electricity (I'm looking at you, every demon in the darn game) it doesn't work as well.

Pick up the Intensify and Selective metamagic feats and it's a trick that you'll take to your grave. 10d6 damage multiplied on a crit is scary.


Scavion wrote:
Xaratherus wrote:

I'm not certain how much more explicit you can get when the text in the class actually notes that you can combine Spell Combat with Spellstrike:

Spellstrike wrote:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.

Emphasis mine.

Magus can be a very potent combatant, but I will say that at mid-level you'll find it necessary to branch out from the 'Shocking Grasp' build, as once things start getting spell resistance or regularly having immunity to electricity (I'm looking at you, every demon in the darn game) it doesn't work as well.

Pick up the Intensify and Selective metamagic feats and it's a trick that you'll take to your grave. 10d6 damage multiplied on a crit is scary.

Why is selective necessary? SG isn't an AoE spell.

And as you get higher in level, many creatures are either immune or resistant to electricity. Not all of them, but I've run into enough that I feel confident in saying that while it's a neat trick, you don't want to have it be your only trick.


Xaratherus wrote:


Why is selective necessary? SG isn't an AoE spell.

And as you get higher in level, many creatures are either immune or resistant to electricity. Not all of them, but I've run into enough that I feel confident in saying that while it's a neat trick, you don't want to have it be your only trick.

My bad. I meant Elemental.


PrinceofVisigon wrote:
Well, he's not 'house ruling' it. He referred me to the Magus page for an official FAQ from Paizo and seemingly has not taken my suggestion to post his ruling on this board. Not trying to grief him, I know DM is a hard position to play (doing it myself too) just frustrating when it won't even be admitted that I'm right on this matter and the other characters in the campaign are very powerful half beings, powerful magic users or a combination of that. Not supposed to turn into a venting session. But I wanted you all to know I really appreciate the input.

Unfortunately you'll have to tell him that this question is not likely to get answered by FAQ. You can refer him to this quote from how the FAQ system works:

Paizo wrote:

Some FAQ threads get marked as "No response needed." What does that mean?

In most cases, it means the staff has looked at the question and decided that no official response is needed for that question.
For example, someone might ask, “Do I need to take the Power Attack feat before I can take the Cleave feat?” Because the Cleave feat says “Prerequisite: Power Attack,” it’s obvious that you do need to take that feat, and no answer is needed. In other words, the design team isn’t going to answer questions that a reasonable person could figure out by rereading the book.

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Tell your GM the Design Team just called him "unreasonable".


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GMing being hard is one thing. He's abusing his position and acting out of ignorance. If the rest of the group is behind you, tell him to step down because he's demonstrating he can't handle the responsibility. If he can screw up such a simple ruling, what else is he going to screw up?

If the rest of the group backs him, then you're playing with an entire incompetent group and you don't need that in your life. Go make your own group, with blackjack and hookers.


Kazaan wrote:

GMing being hard is one thing. He's abusing his position and acting out of ignorance. If the rest of the group is behind you, tell him to step down because he's demonstrating he can't handle the responsibility. If he can screw up such a simple ruling, what else is he going to screw up?

If the rest of the group backs him, then you're playing with an entire incompetent group and you don't need that in your life. Go make your own group, with blackjack and hookers.

I have to echo this as well. The Magus has some complexity - at least for novice gamers - in how its abilities interact, but once the text we've quoted (and the FAQs linked) are pointed out it should become pretty clear. If he's read all this and still does not understand, then his head will likely melt the first time he has to deal with something that's actually unclear.

Liberty's Edge

Xaratherus wrote:

I'm not certain how much more explicit you can get when the text in the class actually notes that you can combine Spell Combat with Spellstrike:

Spellstrike wrote:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.

Emphasis mine.

Magus can be a very potent combatant, but I will say that at mid-level you'll find it necessary to branch out from the 'Shocking Grasp' build, as once things start getting spell resistance or regularly having immunity to electricity (I'm looking at you, every demon in the darn game) it doesn't work as well.

The way I run mine is to take Spell Blending early to pick up Touch of Fatigue. Even if the spell is resisted, you still got that extra attack with your weapon to deliver the spell, which makes it like a ghetto monk's flurry. Since Touch of Fatigue is a 0-Level spell you can do this indefinitely. Also, since it is a 0-Level spell, the concentration check required to cast in a melee is fairly easy at any level.


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Aspasia de Malagant wrote:
The way I run mine is to take Spell Blending early to pick up Touch of Fatigue. Even if the spell is resisted, you still got that extra attack with your weapon to deliver the spell, which makes it like a ghetto monk's flurry. Since Touch of Fatigue is a 0-Level spell you can do this indefinitely. Also, since it is a 0-Level spell, the concentration check required to cast in a melee is fairly easy at any level.

Why bother? You can spellstrike with Arcane Mark. It does no damage, but you can brand "loser" in aklo on their forehead. If you want added damage potential, you can take the Close Range arcana for Ray of Frost.

Liberty's Edge

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Kazaan wrote:
Aspasia de Malagant wrote:
The way I run mine is to take Spell Blending early to pick up Touch of Fatigue. Even if the spell is resisted, you still got that extra attack with your weapon to deliver the spell, which makes it like a ghetto monk's flurry. Since Touch of Fatigue is a 0-Level spell you can do this indefinitely. Also, since it is a 0-Level spell, the concentration check required to cast in a melee is fairly easy at any level.
Why bother? You can spellstrike with Arcane Mark. It does no damage, but you can brand "loser" in aklo on their forehead. If you want added damage potential, you can take the Close Range arcana for Ray of Frost.

For a chance to apply a decent debuff, of course. The chance may be slim, but it potentially holds more utility than Arcane Mark. At least as far as battle is concerned...

Fatigued may not seem like much, but -2 strength and dexterity translates into -1 attack/damage and -1 AC making your job of defeating the enemy that much easier. Besides, if you need to withdraw, he can't very well keep up as he can't run or charge...

I'm just baffled why Touch of Fatigue wasn't on the Magus spell list in the first place though considering that the Magus is all about touch spells...


Aspasia de Malagant wrote:


For a chance to apply a decent debuff, of course. The chance may be slim, but it potentially holds more utility than Arcane Mark. At least as far as battle is concerned...

Frostbite is better at this.


No one else in this group is backing me mostly due to being new to Pathfinder. The one veteran player is backing him. Also @Nefreet what's the Design Team? I take it they do the rules?


wait, have I been mistaken here? are folks telling him he can channel shocking grasp though his sword and it stays as a touch attack? I could have sworn if you channeled your spell though the weapon it became a normal attack.

O.o though it's been awhile since I've had a magus at my table

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

My comment was referring to the quote right before it, regarding the FAQ:

Paizo wrote:
In other words, the design team isn’t going to answer questions that a reasonable person could figure out by rereading the book.

The PDT (Pathfinder Design Team) issues the FAQs.


If your GM is reading the magus abilities and just saying no there's nothing we can say to help...there will not be anything more concrete (like errata or FAQ) because the language for it is not confusing. It seems like your GM just flat out does not like the magus class.


PrinceofVisigon wrote:
No one else in this group is backing me mostly due to being new to Pathfinder. The one veteran player is backing him. Also @Nefreet what's the Design Team? I take it they do the rules?

Ditch your group. The "veteran" is not worthy of the title if he's backing the GM's misinterpretation of this. Let your GM know that you're out because he's mis-using the rules and he should really learn a thing or two about the game before he takes the responsibility of being GM and he shouldn't be so bullheaded about the role. Then, get yourself a competent group.


Talcrion wrote:

wait, have I been mistaken here? are folks telling him he can channel shocking grasp though his sword and it stays as a touch attack? I could have sworn if you channeled your spell though the weapon it became a normal attack.

O.o though it's been awhile since I've had a magus at my table

No, when using Spellstrike it targets standard AC, not touch. But using it and Spell Combat in combination effectively grants a free melee attack, by allowing you to channel the spell through your sword (in lieu of the free touch attack casting the spell grants).


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It's possible we've misunderstood the OP, and the point of contention is whether the magus's weapon Spellstrike attack targets touch AC instead of normal AC. It does not. If that's the point, then the GM is correct.

It doesn't seem like that from the posts, however. I don't know what else you can do to convince him. If he's read the design team's FAQs which count as actual rules for play, and still doesn't agree, then he's emotionally attached to not having to change his mind.


Question related as well. The "extra" attack. What bonuses does the Magus get to it? if any.

Grand Lodge

PrinceofVisigon wrote:
Question related as well. The "extra" attack. What bonuses does the Magus get to it? if any.

Full BAB and all other modifiers that normally apply to an attack with that weapon, in that round. The penalty for spell combat applies, for example. Did you have something specific in mind?


Thanks Starglim. As a minor update, I've told him to post here. But he doesn't seem to trust these forums for some reason.


He doesn't trust the official forums...where the developers post?


Ya...I'm posting this question in the right place yes?


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PrinceofVisigon wrote:
Ya...I'm posting this question in the right place yes?

Yes, absolutely. So, let me get this straight:

1) He insists that he's right, even though the rules in the book clearly contradict him.

2) He insists that he's right even though the official FAQ written by the people who made the game explicitly contradicts him.

3) He doesn't trust the official forums run by the people who made the game because he thinks it's only for discussion of houserules (as he houserules that Magi don't get to take advantage of rules elements they're entitled to by default).

4) He's willing to value the advice of a (alleged) veteran player over all of us here on the forums stating otherwise (a "veteran" that's probably butthurt because a Magus in a prior game stole his thunder).

5) The other players just roll with it since they're new to the system and are putting (badly misplaced) trust in others who claim (undeserved) expertise.

You don't need this in your life. People sometimes say the GM has the last word in everything. That's wrong. The GM has a particular role of responsibility in the game and is equitable to any other player. If he's not going to do his job correctly, he should step down. If he's going to refuse a legitimate reference site, he's not suited to the task. Any player can have the last word... that word being 'quit', preceded immediately by 'I'. Also, for good measure (since no one at your table is backing you on this and they really should)...

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Liberty's Edge

Blackstorm wrote:
Aspasia de Malagant wrote:


For a chance to apply a decent debuff, of course. The chance may be slim, but it potentially holds more utility than Arcane Mark. At least as far as battle is concerned...
Frostbite is better at this.

Arcane Mark and Touch of Fatigue = 0-Level spells that CAN be used as much as you like...

Frostbite = 1st Level spell that CANNOT be used as much as you like...

Though Frostbite is slightly better as it does some non-lethal damage (hence 1st vs 0-level spell) the tactic of using Touch of Fatigue to generate a free attack with the chance (although slim) to apply Fatigued every turn that you aren't using a better spell is too good to pass up...

I thought this would be standard stuff by now?!


Personally, I don't believe that burning an arcana in order to gain access to Touch of Fatigue is worth it.

This is speaking from the POV of a high level Magus, where the likelihood is that they'll only fail the save on a nat 1. It might be worth it at lower levels, and then re-train your arcana at that point. Otherwise, Arcane Mark is sufficient.


Moreover, if you get Close Range, it works not only for Ray of Frost but also any other rays you have in your repertoire. It's versatile. So you do the debuffing with Frostbite since, with Rime magic, you can apply both Entangled and Fatigued at the same time (with no save for either, btw) and use either Mark or Close Range RoF when you have no other spell to cast and just want a bonus melee attack.


You guys mention Arcane Mark. It's true that (when played properly) Arcane Mark can be used for the 'extra attack'?


Yup. It's a touch spell just like any other; the only different thing about it is that the effect of the spell is harmless in nature as opposed to direct damage or a debuff. So you cast Arcane Mark, swap the free touch to deliver it with a free melee attack to deliver it, and get your weapon damage thrown on... as a bonus, you can make the Mark effect something insulting or humorous like branding the word "loser" on the target's forehead. It could even be used as a calling card.


PrinceofVisigon wrote:
You guys mention Arcane Mark. It's true that (when played properly) Arcane Mark can be used for the 'extra attack'?

Yes. It might be cheesy, but according to the rules, it is valid. As for your GM problem, he's clearly not listening to your concerns. And he's cutting off essentially the strongest part of the Magus class for you.

If he doesn't want to have the Magus class as written in the rules, he should probably just houserule "No Magus" instead of making it weaker.

Hamstringing classes in Houserules usually doesn't make players terribly happy, and is certainly not the way to 'rebalance' things.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
FAQ wrote:

Magus: Can a magus use spell combat (page 10) with cantrips?

Yes. It is not limited to spells of level 1 or higher.

—Sean K Reynolds, 02/21/12

Spellstrike can be used with any touch range spell, even the non-offensive spells.

The key point is that the game don't differentiate between "offensive" e "non-offensive" touch spell. The only difference that matter is trying to touch a friend or an enemy. Any touch range spell count as an armed attack when trying to touch a enemy, regardless of what the spell do.


Ya. What sparked all this was me trying to use Arcane Mark to "Mark" my opponent. Marco (my Magus) wears a purple cloak with a silver star on it. I was hoping that a trait of his would be that he tends to 'mark' enemies with that silver star. But, well you guys know the rest of the story.

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