Goblinworks Executive Founder
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@Decius transportation costs aren't 0 but there are likely to be central tradehubs that most items get moved through anyway. Think Jita. I forsee those central tradehubs all being LG without reasons to not make them so. They will already be your most highly guarded areas which will make combating corruption and unrest easier.
I think there's a direct conflict between "Rich, centrally located player settlement" and "Safe from invasion".
I also think that the prices for almost everything in the major hubs will be higher, since there will be more demand and higher transportation costs for almost everything.
Goblin Squad Member
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A few changes I would like to see with SAD:
1. The "Fleeced Flag" should not allow any other to SAD or Ambush the merchant for the duration of the flag.
2. Whomever violates the flag gets the double reputation hit.
3. The amount the merchant was fleeced for should be visible upon inspection.
4. SADs can not be issued against members of same company, settlement or kingdom.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A few changes I would like to see with SAD:
1. The "Fleeced Flag" should not allow any other to SAD or Ambush the merchant for the duration of the flag.
2. Whomever violates the flag gets the double reputation hit.
3. The amount the merchant was fleeced for should be visible upon inspection.
4. SADs can not be issued against members of same company, settlement or kingdom.
4. faction? Facebook friend? Just kidding...about the second one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not caring how expensive transportation is because you are paying someone else for it is the opposite of good business.
I'm not suggesting that crafters who set up shop somewhere they feel comfortable and simply place buy orders for the materials they need will be the most efficient or the most successful, but I expect they'll probably be the most numerous.
If I make my living transporting goods to the systems where I get the most return on investment, I'm likely to severely discount the cost of my time. After all, that time is spent playing a game I enjoy enough to pay for, and transporting goods is how I'm realizing that enjoyment. This leads me to believe that there will be a significant number of transportation specialists who will happily spend an additional hour transporting goods without calculating how much money they could have made selling those goods more cheaply at a closer market and returning to their harvesting operations more quickly. Again, I'm not suggesting those transporters will be the most efficient or the most successful, but I expect there will be a large number of them.
Finally, I'm not even really agreeing with Andius's analysis. I was merely trying to point out what I think is a likely scenario that might have been the basis for part of that analysis.
A few changes I would like to see with SAD:
1. The "Fleeced Flag" should not allow any other to SAD or Ambush the merchant for the duration of the flag.
2. Whomever violates the flag gets the double reputation hit.
3. The amount the merchant was fleeced for should be visible upon inspection.
4. SADs can not be issued against members of same company, settlement or kingdom.
If you're referring to the Victimized flag, the first two are already in effect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you're referring to the Victimized flag, the first two are already in effect.A few changes I would like to see with SAD:
1. The "Fleeced Flag" should not allow any other to SAD or Ambush the merchant for the duration of the flag.
2. Whomever violates the flag gets the double reputation hit.
3. The amount the merchant was fleeced for should be visible upon inspection.
4. SADs can not be issued against members of same company, settlement or kingdom.
No, I believe the first two apply only to the company that issued the SAD. So let us say a group from UNC SADs a caravan, that caravan is only protected from UNC SAD or attack. If anyone attacks it during the flag, the original bandits take the reputation hit.
I'm hoping I have that wrong, which is why I suggest 1 and 2.
@ Kitnyx
I did not include Faction because I could see an internal rivalry develop within a Faction. Plus you can be a member of more than one faction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some interesting dynamics. I suspect crafters will tend to gravitate more towards Lawfull and well protected settlements, with fairly strict laws designed to protect crafters. That seems rather logical and it also balances the fact that such settlements will tend to have less freedom of action in what they are allowed to do.
However, I doubt that it will mean that there be no crafting capability in other settlements. Any organization is going to want to maintain some native capacity to craft important items, if only for security purposes. Furthermore laws of supply and demand dictate that at least some crafters will take up residence in less savory settlements in order to take advantage of greater proffit potential. Assuming transport costs are not neglibable, a crafter who sells localy will get to pocket whatever portion of the sale price that transport costs makeup for an imported item as pure proffit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have not seen any compelling reason to believe that settlements won't be Lawful of some kind. There is no downside for crafters in being Lawful, what could possibly be the use of being chaotic as a crafter?
As I stated earlier, any LN, LG or NG settlements will have (exclusively) LG merchants. Why wouldn't they? That alignment will pass on maximum penalties of alignment shift to anyone killing them outside of non alignment shifting means.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have not seen any compelling reason to believe that settlements won't be Lawful of some kind. There is no downside for crafters in being Lawful, what could possibly be the use of being chaotic as a crafter?
As I stated earlier, any LN, LG or NG settlements will have (exclusively) LG merchants. Why wouldn't they? That alignment will pass on maximum penalties of alignment shift to anyone killing them outside of non alignment shifting means.
Because not everyone who crafts is strictly a crafter who only min-maxes crafting.
Because not everyone who crafts is strictly a crafter who only min-maxes crafting.I have not seen any compelling reason to believe that settlements won't be Lawful of some kind. There is no downside for crafters in being Lawful, what could possibly be the use of being chaotic as a crafter?
As I stated earlier, any LN, LG or NG settlements will have (exclusively) LG merchants. Why wouldn't they? That alignment will pass on maximum penalties of alignment shift to anyone killing them outside of non alignment shifting means.
It'll make sense to have dedicated crafting toons, so yea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Because not everyone who crafts is strictly a crafter who only min-maxes crafting.I have not seen any compelling reason to believe that settlements won't be Lawful of some kind. There is no downside for crafters in being Lawful, what could possibly be the use of being chaotic as a crafter?
As I stated earlier, any LN, LG or NG settlements will have (exclusively) LG merchants. Why wouldn't they? That alignment will pass on maximum penalties of alignment shift to anyone killing them outside of non alignment shifting means.
And you base that opinion on what sandbox MMO?
Everyone is going to have multiple characters and train them is a number of specialized areas. Example:
1. PvE dungeon - escalation specialist (DT main)
2. PvP specialist (main)
3. PvP low skill throw away - CE for the lolz!!
4. Dedicated harvester
5. Dedicated crafter
6. Dedicated hauler
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Goblin Squad Member
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Because not everyone who crafts is strictly a crafter who only min-maxes crafting.I have not seen any compelling reason to believe that settlements won't be Lawful of some kind. There is no downside for crafters in being Lawful, what could possibly be the use of being chaotic as a crafter?
As I stated earlier, any LN, LG or NG settlements will have (exclusively) LG merchants. Why wouldn't they? That alignment will pass on maximum penalties of alignment shift to anyone killing them outside of non alignment shifting means.
And you base that opinion on what sandbox MMO?
Everyone is going to have multiple characters and train them is a number of specialized areas. Example:
1. PvE dungeon - escalation specialist (DT main)
2. PvP specialist (main)
3. PvP low skill throw away - CE for the lolz!!
4. Dedicated harvester
5. Dedicated crafter
6. Dedicated hauler
Wrong.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I second the doubt that everyone makes 6 characters to train multiple trees simultaneously. Though I'm sure some people do it to varying degrees, I don't think "everyone" trains more than one character when you pay a fixed rate for every extra character you train. No definitive numbers either way, of course.
I still feel like there will be niches for crafters to create items of lower quality to sell to non LG settlements; if those crafters make a living consistently selling those lower quality weapons to non-LG settlements, and assuming bandits and other travel costs make it more profitable to live in that non-LG settlement, then I expect at least some of them to live there. Yes, merchants will be as close to LG as their situation allows; everyone will be, and that's intended. But I don't think their desire to be LG will override completely ovverride their desire to play their role well.
I don't think the ability score requirements of crafting skills will be such that it is possible to make a character who trains nothing but crafting skills.
Are you saying Crafting can't make you Wise Decius Biggus?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd think that there should be enough ability increases in crafting role skills and skills that aren't role-specific that a character can single-role in one of the crafting or social classes. So it wouldn't be just crafting skills, but without getting into an adventuring class.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think the ability score requirements of crafting skills will be such that it is possible to make a character who trains nothing but crafting skills.
Why is it impossible to train a character in nothing but crafting?
@ Shane,
I did not day everyone will have six characters, that was just an example (which I stated). I do believe everyone will have at least two characters (trained or untrained). Even if one character is used as a pack mule ( set on / follow), which multiboxing will allow.
Others will use naked noob toons for a variety of purposes
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think the ability score requirements of crafting skills will be such that it is possible to make a character who trains nothing but crafting skills.Why is it impossible to train a character in nothing but crafting?
@ Shane,
I did not day everyone will have six characters, that was just an example (which I stated). I do believe everyone will have at least two characters (trained or untrained). Even if one character is used as a pack mule ( set on / follow), which multiboxing will allow.Others will use naked noob toons for a variety of purposes
Outside of those of us with Destiny Twins, I imagine that these numbers are dependent on whether a character that is not paying for training time will be able to log in. My current assumption is that at least early on, Training Time and Ability to Play will be linked. If each character requires extra monthly payment to simply log in, then I think less than 50% of players will have more than one character (again, ignoring Destiny Twins).
If it costs nothing to have a pack mule character, then I grant you that greater than 50% of players will do so. But still a far throw away from everyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think the ability score requirements of crafting skills will be such that it is possible to make a character who trains nothing but crafting skills.Why is it impossible to train a character in nothing but crafting?
Skills will have Attribute Requirements. Your Attributes only go up by training Skills that use them. If there aren't enough Strength skills in the Crafting Tree to raise your Strength from a 10 to a 15 before you get blocked by a Skill that requires a 15 Strength, then you'll have to train other Skills to bring up your Strength.
I believe this is what Decius was alluding to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think the ability score requirements of crafting skills will be such that it is possible to make a character who trains nothing but crafting skills.Why is it impossible to train a character in nothing but crafting?Skills will have Attribute Requirements. Your Attributes only go up by training Skills that use them. If there aren't enough Strength skills in the Crafting Tree to raise your Strength from a 10 to a 15 before you get blocked by a Skill that requires a 15 Strength, then you'll have to train other Skills to bring up your Strength.
I believe this is what Decius was alluding to.
Prerequisites aside, you can still train a character that does nothing but crafting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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if being a crafter requires you to say be a wizard or a fighter to get scores, then they built the crafting system wrong. If thats their goal they should take out the crafting role and just allow everyone to craft with just ability score prereqs.
you should get enough ability scores through the crafting system to be able to do what you want. remember that being pure crafter means you need someone to provide you raw materials....which is its own role.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... you should get enough ability scores through the crafting system to be able to do what you want.
I think that will be the case. However, I think there is a distinct possibility that you won't be able to focus solely on a specific subset of crafting. It's hard to come up with reasonable examples since we know so few details, but it's quite possible someone will want to focus exclusively on Armorsmithing, but won't be able to get the appropriate Attribute scores necessary without branching out. At that point, the decision must be made whether to branch out into other areas of the Crafter Tree, or to branch out into areas of the Adventurer or Aristocrat Trees.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... you should get enough ability scores through the crafting system to be able to do what you want.I think that will be the case. However, I think there is a distinct possibility that you won't be able to focus solely on a specific subset of crafting. It's hard to come up with reasonable examples since we know so few details, but it's quite possible someone will want to focus exclusively on Armorsmithing, but won't be able to get the appropriate Attribute scores necessary without branching out. At that point, the decision must be made whether to branch out into other areas of the Crafter Tree, or to branch out into areas of the Adventurer or Aristocrat Trees.
There are supposedly also a number of General abilities to be trained that are independent of role.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are supposedly also a number of General abilities to be trained that are independent of role.... you should get enough ability scores through the crafting system to be able to do what you want.I think that will be the case. However, I think there is a distinct possibility that you won't be able to focus solely on a specific subset of crafting. It's hard to come up with reasonable examples since we know so few details, but it's quite possible someone will want to focus exclusively on Armorsmithing, but won't be able to get the appropriate Attribute scores necessary without branching out. At that point, the decision must be made whether to branch out into other areas of the Crafter Tree, or to branch out into areas of the Adventurer or Aristocrat Trees.
Quite right. I didn't mean to imply that Crafter, Adventurer, and Aristocrat were the only Trees into which one might branch.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have not seen any compelling reason to believe that settlements won't be Lawful of some kind. There is no downside for crafters in being Lawful, what could possibly be the use of being chaotic as a crafter?
As I stated earlier, any LN, LG or NG settlements will have (exclusively) LG merchants. Why wouldn't they? That alignment will pass on maximum penalties of alignment shift to anyone killing them outside of non alignment shifting means.
There are reasons for settlements not to be Lawfull. Namely that it allows it's members the sort of freedom of action that Lawfull settlements can't. Want to rob, loot, steal, murder, etc anyone anywhere at any time without reason...there you go. That kind of latitude is pretty powerfull....the question is will the training penalties imposed on non-lawfull settlements be appropriately balanced with that. That remains an open question....but I don't think the sort of latitude afforded by being non-Lawfull should be discounted in this sort of game.
I do wonder if there is a benefit to a settlement being Chaotic as oppossed to Neutral. Since Neutral settlements can encompass Chaotic characters who have all that sort of latitude of action but not suffer as severe a hit for it in other areas....and even have Lawfull members who can access the highest levels of training even if it means temporarly having to switch settlements to get it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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well honestly if its an armorsmith that has to branch out to weaponsmithing skills to pick up some ability scores thats not a big deal. what I dont find acceptable is forcing a crafter, adventurer, or aristocrat to go outside their role in order to advance in their role.
Now if the adventurer wants to get some fighting skills so that when he is ambushed he can survive and escape easier, there is nothing wrong with him having to pick up fighter/ranger/wizard skills, but he should not have to pick those up in order to mine something.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Shane,
I did not day everyone will have six characters, that was just an example (which I stated). I do believe everyone will have at least two characters (trained or untrained). Even if one character is used as a pack mule ( set on / follow), which multiboxing will allow.Others will use naked noob toons for a variety of purposes
Well, you used the word everyone; I simply do not think that every single person will have more than one character. Depending on the circumstances it may even be a majority that do, but I was just being nitpicky with the word "everyone". I personally think that the number of people who think a second trained character is worth a second subscription will likely be smaller than 50% of the total number of players (DT's obviously complicate the conversation a bit, but I'm just talking about paying 2 or more subscriptions). Like I said before, we could argue this point all day long because there aren't hard numbers pointing either direction, and there really can't be with the nature of creating multiple accounts.
It is still to be seen whether we will have things like naked noob mules; a definitive decision on how you can play free (if at all) still has not been made. In fact, I would be a little surprised if free accounts/playable unpaid characters were around even at the start of OE; not saying it isn't possible, but it doesn't seem likely to me. Remember that their plan is for a slowly growing core of dedicated players; they are not trying to throw open flood gates to get as many people in game as possible right away.
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Goblin Squad Member
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well honestly if its an armorsmith that has to branch out to weaponsmithing skills to pick up some ability scores thats not a big deal. what I dont find acceptable is forcing a crafter, adventurer, or aristocrat to go outside their role in order to advance in their role.
There *might* be a point where the crafter might choose to pick up some (low) adventuring skill that gives a attribute boost because the XP costs of his own (advanced) skills are higher. Likewise for an adventurer who loathes crafting. But the player should be able to stay within her own role if she chooses.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If EVE is anything to go on (where the closest to SAD is losec jump gate bubbles) there will be no major trade through SAD areas unless the area is pretty much dominated by an alliance that forbids attacking friendlies.
Failing that major industrialists will just hire people with the pathfinder equivalent of the EVE jump freighters skill, presumably in Pathfinder there will eventually be some sort of teleport ability that allows reasonable amounts of freight to be carried across settlements.
Generally speaking in EVE the crazy bandits and pirates and big PvP battles get good publicity for the game but the majority of players (who keep the game financial) do minimal PvP.
This is particularly the case with crafting and trading players as the sort of personality that enjoys sitting at a spreadsheet for hours manipulating in game markets and optimizing production lines is generally not the sort of person that gets any enjoyment out of PvP whatsoever.
If EVE is anything to go on (where the closest to SAD is losec jump gate bubbles) there will be no major trade through SAD areas unless the area is pretty much dominated by an alliance that forbids attacking friendlies.
Failing that major industrialists will just hire people with the pathfinder equivalent of the EVE jump freighters skill, presumably in Pathfinder there will eventually be some sort of teleport ability that allows reasonable amounts of freight to be carried across settlements.
Generally speaking in EVE the crazy bandits and pirates and big PvP battles get good publicity for the game but the majority of players (who keep the game financial) do minimal PvP.
This is particularly the case with crafting and trading players as the sort of personality that enjoys sitting at a spreadsheet for hours manipulating in game markets and optimizing production lines is generally not the sort of person that gets any enjoyment out of PvP whatsoever.
There is one thing you are missing. A lot of the accounts that never leave hi sec belong to null sec people. Null sec has no real need of gatherers on crafters on the whole and most of us maintain hi sec alts to finance our pvp habit.
While it is cetainly true that around 70% of characters never leave high sec it doesnt take more than about 2 extra accounts (or characters) per null seccer to account for the numbers in hi sec. While it is true that not every one in null sec has more than 1 account I think it safe to say that the majority have 2+ accounts.
As to the jump frieghters frankly I hope PfO never does any such thing as allowing teleport from one safe area to another it was one of the huge mistakes eve made allowing that as it permits two things. One is force projection or the ability to control far more territory than your numbers would suggest. The second is it trivialises logistics to the point that it is no longer a viable solution to cut off logistics to a settlement so it makes it more of a "who has the biggest army" style of game
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Goblin Squad Member
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Failing that major industrialists will just hire people with the pathfinder equivalent of the EVE jump freighters skill, presumably in Pathfinder there will eventually be some sort of teleport ability that allows reasonable amounts of freight to be carried across settlements.
Teleportation probably will enter the game at some point. Something like Dimensional Door. But I hope high level Teleportation that allows you to 'jump' from one Settlement to another never happens.
It would make caravans obsolete and banditry less feasible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My problem with teleportation, even with heavy costs, is what may be prohibitively expensive to you as a newb could be trivial to that level 20 in full adamantine gear with awesome enchants. So if there is long range teleportation I say restrict it's access to level 20s and make it insanely expensive even for fairly affluent level 20s.
If that sounds like it will be used too seldom to be worth implementing... I agree. That's why all teleportation in PFO should be short range only.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the TT Teleport is a 5th level spell or 9th Level wizard to cast. At that level she can take 3 other people along none of then can be encumbered. I am positive a wagon will remain the most efficient way two move a goods for years into the game. That's not to say it will be in game, or even that it will be the same spell, but if it is it will not be an easy spell to come by especially in a PvP game.
I went in for the Kick starter because I have been playing TT for years.
