Bad Mojo |
We have a player that would like permanent Unseen Servant enchanted to one of his items. I guess the first question would be is that even possible per RAW?
Second would be how much would it cost?
The rulebook says [spell level x caster level x 2,000gp], since it's "permanent" we don't need anything more than a 1st level casting of it, so cost would be [1 x 1 x 2,000 = 2,000gp]. There is some subtext offering multipliers and divisors depending on if the spell is usually timed in rounds, minutes, or days. Unseen Servant is timed in hours which isn't listed.
My confusion comes in when you compare 2,000gp for permanent to the costs of just having a number of charges per day, which breaks out like this:
CL1 = each cast lasts 1 hour
1 charge/day = 360 gp
2 charges/day = 720 gp
3 charges/day = 1,080 gp
4 charges/day = 1,440 gp
5 charges/day = 1,800 gp
CL2 = each cast lasts 2 hours
1 charge/day = 720 gp
2 charges/day = 1440 gp
3 charges/day = 2160 gp
4 charges/day = 2880 gp
5 charges/day = 3,600 gp
CL3 = each cast lasts 3 hours
1 charge/day = 1,080 gp
2 charges/day = 2,160 gp
3 charges/day = 3,240 gp
4 charges/day = 4,320 gp
5 charges/day = 5,400 gp
CL4 = each cast lasts 4 hours
1 charge/day = 1,440 gp
2 charges/day = 2,880 gp
3 charges/day = 4,320 gp
4 charges/day = 5,760 gp
5 charges/day = 7,200 gp
CL5 = each cast lasts 5 hours
1 charge/day = 1,800 gp
2 charges/day = 3,600 gp
3 charges/day = 5,400 gp
4 charges/day = 7,200 gp
5 charges/day = 9,000 gp
With these numbers, why would you ever purchase this item with charges of Unseen Servant as opposed to having it permanent? Am I missing something?
EDIT: may have answered my own question, looks like the spells given in the Permanency description are the only spells allowed without GM approval.
ryric RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 |
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It really is up to you as a GM, as with any custom item.
I will let you know, I think continuous unseen servant in an item is super powerful, especially if the user can just get it right back if the servant is dispelled or killed. Imagine having the party never personally open doors, set off traps, pick things up, transfer items between characters, and so forth. And if it "dies" you just bring it right back? Yeah I would drive my GM nuts with this item. Unseen servant is one of my "must have" 1st level spells, great for outside the box problem solving.
Personally, I would price it as caster level 12 extended unseen servant, one use a day lasting 24 hours, costing 12x2x2000/5 = 9600 gp. That would curtail some of the abuses by making it gone for a day if it "dies."
Bad Mojo |
It really is up to you as a GM, as with any custom item.
I will let you know, I think continuous unseen servant in an item is super powerful, especially if the user can just get it right back if the servant is dispelled or killed. Imagine having the party never personally open doors, set off traps, pick things up, transfer items between characters, and so forth. And if it "dies" you just bring it right back? Yeah I would drive my GM nuts with this item. Unseen servant is one of my "must have" 1st level spells, great for outside the box problem solving.
Personally, I would price it as caster level 12 extended unseen servant, one use a day lasting 24 hours, costing 12x2x2000/5 = 9600 gp. That would curtail some of the abuses by making it gone for a day if it "dies."
That's a fantastic solution! I'll present that to the crew, thanks!
Cevah |
My confusion comes in when you compare 2,000gp for permanent to the costs of just having a number of charges per day, which breaks out like this:
CL1 = each cast lasts 1 hour
1 charge/day = 360 gp
2 charges/day = 720 gp
3 charges/day = 1,080 gp
4 charges/day = 1,440 gp
5 charges/day = 1,800 gp
...With these numbers, why would you ever purchase this item with charges of Unseen Servant as opposed to having it permanent? Am I missing something?
EDIT: may have answered my own question, looks like the spells given in the Permanency description are the only spells allowed without GM approval.
If it is continuous, you only have one at a time.
If it is X charges per day, you can have up to X at a time.How useful is it to have more than one? That is an exercise for the student.
Your edit note looks like a house rule, not RAW.
/cevah
Bad Mojo |
I was more concerned with the possibility of abuse. A dozen Unseen Servants that die in a fireball are dead, and there is a monetary loss because you paid for those charges. The player now needs to decide and budget if he's willing to eat more charges and summon more. A continuous Unseen Servant is another beast all together.
"Dies" to a fireball? Resummon.
"Dies" in a trap? Resummon.
Suspect an ambush ahead? Put robe on Unseen Servant oops dead resummon.
Literally forever, 24/7. No charges to ever worry about.
Your edit note looks like a house rule, not RAW./cevah
The last sentence in the Permanency description right here in the PRD:
The GM may allow other spells to be made permanent.
I'm reading this to indicate that only the spells listed (and there are quite a few) in the Permanency description are covered by the spell per RAW, but your GM may allow others or he may not. If there's another way to interpret that I'm missing it.
Cevah |
Cevah wrote:Your edit note looks like a house rule, not RAW.
/cevah
The last sentence in the Permanency description right here in the PRD:
The GM may allow other spells to be made permanent.
I'm reading this to indicate that only the spells listed (and there are quite a few) in the Permanency description are covered by the spell per RAW, but your GM may allow others or he may not. If there's another way to interpret that I'm missing it.
You are confusing the spell Permanency with the creation of permanent magic items. That is why I said is was a house rule.
When you dispel a Permanency version of a spell, it is gone. Do the same with a magic item, and it goes away for 1d4 rounds, then returns,
/cevah
Orfamay Quest |
Bad Mojo wrote:You are confusing the spell Permanency with the creation of permanent magic items. That is why I said is was a house rule.Cevah wrote:Your edit note looks like a house rule, not RAW.
/cevah
The last sentence in the Permanency description right here in the PRD:
The GM may allow other spells to be made permanent.
I'm reading this to indicate that only the spells listed (and there are quite a few) in the Permanency description are covered by the spell per RAW, but your GM may allow others or he may not. If there's another way to interpret that I'm missing it.
Well, creating a custom magic item also requires GM approval. By RAW.
Cevah |
Hat of Disguise = Disguise self at will
Boots of Levitation = Levitation at will
Feather Step Slippers = Constant Feather Step
Deathwatch Eyes = Constant Deathwatch
Heavyload Belt = Constant Ant Haul
These are all standard permanent magic items with spells not in the list for Permanency.
As for custom items, yes you need GM approval, but that is RAW not a house rule.
When the OP said "EDIT: may have answered my own question, looks like the spells given in the Permanency description are the only spells allowed without GM approval.", he was limiting item creation to only the spells on the Permanency list. Since standard items occur that are not on the list, the comment was essentially house ruling item creation.
Permanency was a requirement back in 2nd edition. Thar requirement was removed in 3.0.
/cevah
Bad Mojo |
Bad Mojo wrote:Cevah wrote:Your edit note looks like a house rule, not RAW.
/cevah
The last sentence in the Permanency description right here in the PRD:
The GM may allow other spells to be made permanent.
I'm reading this to indicate that only the spells listed (and there are quite a few) in the Permanency description are covered by the spell per RAW, but your GM may allow others or he may not. If there's another way to interpret that I'm missing it.
You are confusing the spell Permanency with the creation of permanent magic items. That is why I said is was a house rule.
When you dispel a Permanency version of a spell, it is gone. Do the same with a magic item, and it goes away for 1d4 rounds, then returns,
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
/cevah
Per RAW magic item creation, there aren't any "permanent" magic items that you can actually create. There are "continuous and user-activated" items.
We can view this two ways, that "continuous" and "permanent" are synonymous and this allows permanent items to be created but in return links the permanency spell to the creation of permanent magic items... or they are completely different mechanics in which case there are no rules for creating a "permanent" item.
The word "permanent" isn't mentioned anywhere on the magic item creation page, but nor is the rules for "continuous" spelled out on how they affect spells that summon entities that can die. Per RAW, wouldn't they basically be a summon spell with unlimited duration but once the summon is dead the item is useless? As far as I can tell, it's purely a duration modifier and not one that imparts immortality/resurrection or multiple castings in the case of something like a "continuous" summon monster I item.
Without clarification on the relationship between the two, I think the proposed CL12+1 (extended) for 24 hour duration works well. It prevents abuse while allowing a 24/7 Unseen Servant (with care), and it fits within the established RAW rules for item creation without needing to answer if "continuous" = "permanent" or not.
Cevah |
Actually, there are two kinds of magic items. Charged ones that become non-magical after all their charges are used (potions, scrolls, wands, etc.) and those that retain their magic no matter how often or long they are used. The latter are usually referred to a Permanent magic items, because they last forever. Some are limited to charges per day, others are continuous or at will.
The linkage with the Permanency spell was left back in 2nd edition. 3.0, 3.5, and PF do not have that requirement. Not sure why you keep linking the word "Permanency" when used with magic items with the spell. There is no such link. In fact, the spell is designed as a way to cheaply simulate a magic item.
Back in 2nd edition, there was a ring of genie summoning. If the genie was ever killed, the ring became worthless. I see no reason for not applying that logic to any summoning spell. You need a non-continuous version to summon something new each time, and it lasts only as ling as CL dictates. Unseen Servant is not a summoning spell, but a Conjuration (creation) spell.
Each time you invoke it, a brand new force is conjured. No need to worry about what happened to the previous one. If you want to rule that a new invocation must be used and not reactivating a continuous one, I have no problem with that.
Since you have found a version that you think is fair, then go with it. Just know that you have chosen not to allow something many would also find acceptable.
To reiterate, Permanent magic items are called Permanent, not based on the spell, but because they will not quit. Dispel magic will only slow them down a few rounds. Then can have charges per day, rounds or minutes per day, or even be continuous.
/cevah
Cevah |
The word "permanent" isn't mentioned anywhere on the magic item creation page, but nor is the rules for "continuous" spelled out on how they affect spells that summon entities that can die. Per RAW, wouldn't they basically be a summon spell with unlimited duration but once the summon is dead the item is useless? As far as I can tell, it's purely a duration modifier and not one that imparts immortality/resurrection or multiple castings in the case of something like a "continuous" summon monster I item.
You were looking in the wrong place. :-)
Rings bestow magical powers upon their wearers. Only a rare few have charges—most magic rings are permanent and potent magic items. Anyone can use a ring.
Magic items sometimes have intelligence of their own. Magically imbued with sentience, these items think and feel the same way characters do and should be treated as NPCs. Intelligent items have extra abilities and sometimes extraordinary powers and special purposes. Only permanent magic items (as opposed to single-use items or those with charges) can be intelligent. (This means that potions, scrolls, and wands, among other items, are never intelligent.) In general, less than 1% of magic items have intelligence.
/cevah
Bad Mojo |
Actually, there are two kinds of magic items. Charged ones that become non-magical after all their charges are used (potions, scrolls, wands, etc.) and those that retain their magic no matter how often or long they are used. The latter are usually referred to a Permanent magic items, because they last forever. Some are limited to charges per day, others are continuous or at will.
30 years of roleplaying and I've never heard items referred to as permanent unless the bonus conferred was on all the time (e.g. Boots of Springing and Striding). Anything with an "on use" ability that can be depleted for a time (such as a daily charges item) isn't "permanent" in the sense that the player and GM need to know if the item has been activated, it's not a "given" that someone with 3/day Shield item is "permanently" protected by Shield.
Maybe it's a regional thing, but it's not a vernacular I've heard applied to anything that isn't on all the time.
The linkage with the Permanency spell was left back in 2nd edition. 3.0, 3.5, and PF do not have that requirement. Not sure why you keep linking the word "Permanency" when used with magic items with the spell. There is no such link. In fact, the spell is designed as a way to cheaply simulate a magic item.
With the last paragraph, I think I'm linking it because you keep referring to "permanent" magic items, and I didn't realize you were talking about every magic item that doesn't have a finite number of uses.
Back in 2nd edition, there was a ring of genie summoning. If the genie was ever killed, the ring became worthless. I see no reason for not applying that logic to any summoning spell. You need a non-continuous version to summon something new each time, and it lasts only as ling as CL dictates. Unseen Servant is not a summoning spell, but a Conjuration (creation) spell.
** spoiler omitted **
Each time you invoke it, a brand new force is conjured. No need to worry about what happened to the previous one. If you want to rule that a new invocation must be used and not reactivating a continuous one, I have no problem with that.
Right, but if you aren't invoking a continuous one that it's not a continuous item, it's a user-activated one.
Since you have found a version that you think is fair, then go with it. Just know that you have chosen not to allow something many would also find acceptable.
A few searches on this and other forums shows a defined lean towards 24/7 unlimited Unseen Servants as being horribly overpowered. A few may find that scenario acceptable, but we aren't necessarily running a Monte Haul campaign :)
To reiterate, Permanent magic items are called Permanent, not based on the spell, but because they will not quit. Dispel magic will only slow them down a few rounds. Then can have charges per day, rounds or minutes per day, or even be continuous.
/cevah
Still not verbiage I'm used to. I understand what you are saying but I still find it weird to equate "permanent" to a ring with 1/day charge of Fireball. I get that you are focused purely on the fact of what "Dispell Magic" affects, where I'm looking at the duration of the bonus applied in use. With that in mind I do understand more where you are coming from, and I appreciate your devil's advocacy in the thread.
Bad Mojo |
Bad Mojo wrote:The word "permanent" isn't mentioned anywhere on the magic item creation page, but nor is the rules for "continuous" spelled out on how they affect spells that summon entities that can die. Per RAW, wouldn't they basically be a summon spell with unlimited duration but once the summon is dead the item is useless? As far as I can tell, it's purely a duration modifier and not one that imparts immortality/resurrection or multiple castings in the case of something like a "continuous" summon monster I item.You were looking in the wrong place. :-)
CRB p478 wrote:Rings bestow magical powers upon their wearers. Only a rare few have charges—most magic rings are permanent and potent magic items. Anyone can use a ring.CRB p532 wrote:Magic items sometimes have intelligence of their own. Magically imbued with sentience, these items think and feel the same way characters do and should be treated as NPCs. Intelligent items have extra abilities and sometimes extraordinary powers and special purposes. Only permanent magic items (as opposed to single-use items or those with charges) can be intelligent. (This means that potions, scrolls, and wands, among other items, are never intelligent.) In general, less than 1% of magic items have intelligence./cevah
The item in question is neither a ring nor intelligent - it's actually a dumb Lucerne Hammer :)
Your ring passage is obviously talking about permanent effects such as feather fall. Your intelligent items passage is obviously stating that a thing with finite charges can't be intelligent, which makes sense because as you said earlier once you run out of charges the item becomes mundane.Both of those passages seem to go against the impression that anything with "charges that don't run out" is permanent, per your last post and the crux of my initial confusion with your stance, specifically this quote:
The latter are usually referred to a Permanent magic items, because they last forever. Some are limited to charges per day, others are continuous or at will.
Your ring and intelligent item passages seem to indicate that something with charges (even daily) is not actually a "permanent" magic item. I beginning to think maybe we are closer in opinion that we think, just words getting in the way ;)
Bad Mojo |
It's also important to note that the magic item crafting price guidelines are not absolute. You need to compare the finished item with others like it in order to determine it's real value.
Absolutely! I couldn't find much for items that utilize Unseen Servant though, not on a permanent/continuous basis anyway. :/
Ravingdork |
Ravingdork wrote:It's also important to note that the magic item crafting price guidelines are not absolute. You need to compare the finished item with others like it in order to determine it's real value.Absolutely! I couldn't find much for items that utilize Unseen Servant though, not on a permanent/continuous basis anyway. :/
Think about what unseen servant is used for: generally, to move things.
Perhaps you should compare it to a hand of the mage or a ring of telekinesis.
Bad Mojo |
Bad Mojo wrote:Ravingdork wrote:It's also important to note that the magic item crafting price guidelines are not absolute. You need to compare the finished item with others like it in order to determine it's real value.Absolutely! I couldn't find much for items that utilize Unseen Servant though, not on a permanent/continuous basis anyway. :/Think about what unseen servant is used for: generally, to move things.
Perhaps you should compare it to a hand of the mage or a ring of telekinesis.
I actually looked at those but ruled them out based on the following:
Both Mage Hand and RoT require concentration to use which means that while active the caster can't cast another spell and only has his movement action available each round - so they are in effect self policing. Mage Hand only has a fraction of the usefulness of RoT which in turn only has a fraction of the utility of Unseen Servant. There's actually a ton of neat tricks you can do with an invisible mindless entity of force that you can't do with mage hand or telekinesis such as:
The ability to attempt any DC10 or less skill that can be tried untrained.
Blocking movement through a square (charges, etc.)
Dragging a heavy sack over traps (they can only lift 20 lbs. but can drag 100 lb).
Throwing a robe on it and marching it 30' in front of the party.
Concentration free menial tasks like clearing a room of caltrops.
If I had to adjust the price of a continuous Unseen Servant based on the Ring of Telekinesis, I'd multiply the cost of RoT by 10, at least!
LazarX |
We have a player that would like permanent Unseen Servant enchanted to one of his items. I guess the first question would be is that even possible per RAW?
Lots of things are possible with RAW. Many of them however should not be allowed by any GM with a modicum of sanity. Don't make the mistake of assuming that just because an item can be built according to a RAW formula that it's automatically balanced, or appropriate.
Bad Mojo |
Can unseen servant really block movement? I was under the impression that they were a formless, shapeless "force." In effect, not really physically present.
Not "visually" present, if it wasn't physically present than saying it's invisible would be redundant. It has a movement speed, a STR value, and interacts with the environment to the extend of making skill checks. Nothing in the text says it's incorporeal or insubstantial, even the name alludes only to being unseen, not untouchable :) Allowing it to shift/phase through solid objects like a charging bad guy means it would also be able to move through walls and doors and interact with things on the other side - seems a bit much for a 1st level spell.
Bad Mojo |
Bad Mojo wrote:Lots of things are possible with RAW. Many of them however should not be allowed by any GM with a modicum of sanity. Don't make the mistake of assuming that just because an item can be built according to a RAW formula that it's automatically balanced, or appropriate.We have a player that would like permanent Unseen Servant enchanted to one of his items. I guess the first question would be is that even possible per RAW?
Completely agree. That's what prompted my question as it's inexplicably cheap and seems a bit over powered. Taming it with a 1/day charge with a 24 hour duration is a good balancing point between players and GM I think though, if you abuse it it'll be gone until the next game day. Not a bad trade off.
Cevah |
30 years of roleplaying and I've never heard items referred to as permanent unless the bonus conferred was on all the time (e.g. Boots of Springing and Striding). Anything with an "on use" ability that can be depleted for a time (such as a daily charges item) isn't "permanent" in the sense that the player and GM need to know if the item has been activated, it's not a "given" that someone with 3/day Shield item is "permanently" protected by Shield.
Maybe it's a regional thing, but it's not a vernacular I've heard applied to anything that isn't on all the time.
Individual Class Awards
Priest
Making potion or scroll
Making permanent magical itemWizard
Making potion or scroll
Making permanent magical item
Been there quite a while. :-)
Your local gaming community might not have used the term. Mine did.
I get that you are focused purely on the fact of what "Dispell Magic" affects, where I'm looking at the duration of the bonus applied in use. With that in mind I do understand more where you are coming from, and I appreciate your devil's advocacy in the thread.
I do agree that keeping track when a non-continuous item is *on* can be fun, my definition is based on what the books actually said. I have 1sd ed books, but not on line. Otherwise I would have looked there.
A few searches on this and other forums shows a defined lean towards 24/7 unlimited Unseen Servants as being horribly overpowered.
Definitely a better estimate of OP than mine. I tend toward OP, even when I am GM. I like high magic campaigns.
Your ring and intelligent item passages seem to indicate that something with charges (even daily) is not actually a "permanent" magic item. I beginning to think maybe we are closer in opinion that we think, just words getting in the way ;)
There are numerous intelligent items that have daily charge limits. The exclusion is against things that run out of charges and become non-magical.
Words can be so fun. My intent was not to be a devil's advocate, but to rather to be sure you knew your options. What you choose, is entirely up to you.
Ravingdork wrote:Can unseen servant really block movement? I was under the impression that they were a formless, shapeless "force." In effect, not really physically present.Not "visually" present, if it wasn't physically present than saying it's invisible would be redundant. It has a movement speed, a STR value, and interacts with the environment to the extend of making skill checks. Nothing in the text says it's incorporeal or insubstantial, even the name alludes only to being unseen, not untouchable :) Allowing it to shift/phase through solid objects like a charging bad guy means it would also be able to move through walls and doors and interact with things on the other side - seems a bit much for a 1st level spell.
Since it does not occupy space, I don't think it can block movement. If it is holding something, that could change. As to working on the other side of a door, I think it can. Consider the classic concept of a wizard in a jail cell, and the keys are on the wall beyond the wizard's reach. One spell later, and the keys are being brought to the wizard.
/cevah
Bad Mojo |
2nd Ed DMG, (c) 1989, table 34 wrote:Individual Class Awards
Priest
Making potion or scroll
Making permanent magical itemWizard
Making potion or scroll
Making permanent magical itemBeen there quite a while. :-)
Your local gaming community might not have used the term. Mine did.
Probably regional. Using 2nd Edition D&D rules and definitions in Pathfinder is pretty much straight up homegrown and house ruled and not RAW Pathfinder. It's a totally acceptable way to play of course but not really what I was asking. I'll certainly look you up next time I play a 2nd Ed game though ;)
I do agree that keeping track when a non-continuous item is *on* can be fun, my definition is based on what the books actually said. I have 1sd ed books, but not on line. Otherwise I would have looked there.
Sure, and while I played 1st and 2nd Ed's, that was a long time ago with an incredibly long stint of Rolemaster, Spacemaster, Traveller, Twilight 2k and a bunch of others in there. I may not be remembering my rules correctly, but it still doesn't seem to jive with the verbiage in Pathfinder per say.
Definitely a better estimate of OP than mine. I tend toward OP, even when I am GM. I like high magic campaigns.
Completely legit, I've played and run a few high fantasy games myself. This particular one however we are trying to keep to the standard wealth by level chart at medium progression - so permanent/continuous Unseen Servant would certainly be overwhelming compared to the "flavor" of the rest of the campaign.
There are numerous intelligent items that have daily charge limits. The exclusion is against things that run out of charges and become non-magical.
Right, there are intelligent items with #/day abilities in addition to a permanent effect(s) (+1, Holy, flaming, etc) - so in effect even depleted of charges they would still be magical. I can't think of any that have a set number of total charges (like a wand) that is intelligent though. If we wanted to stick to RAW, there are costs associated with adding abilities to already magical items - it's simple to say that an Intelligent item had the charges added to it's abilities at the end of (or even after) the creation process.
Words can be so fun. My intent was not to be a devil's advocate, but to rather to be sure you knew your options. What you choose, is entirely up to you.
Fair enough.
Since it does not occupy space, I don't think it can block movement. If it is holding something, that could change. As to working on the other side of a door, I think it can. Consider the classic concept of a wizard in a jail cell, and the keys are on the wall beyond the wizard's reach. One spell later, and the keys are being brought to the wizard.
/cevah
The description says nothing about it not occupying space, or that it has the ability to move through solid objects. I keep re-reading it and honestly I don't see where there's an implication that it can be tangible or intangible as needed. All the listed examples of what it can do involve it interacting with the environment, there's nothing that says it can reach inside a closed box for example.
The definition of "invisible" states it's only visually undetectable, it can still be heard, smelled, or felt if you are into that kind of thing :)
Further defining invisibility from the Special Abilities definition:
The ability to move about unseen is not foolproof. While they can't be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt.
Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision.
And...
An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment.
A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one.
To be able to not physically be there, we would be looking at two other abilities - Ethereal and Incorporeal, neither of which describes the Unseen Servant.