Kingmaker - help me go the extra mile! (spoilers abound)


Kingmaker


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As the title says, this is likely to contain all sorts of spoilery goodness. You have been warned.

Also as it says (more or less), I'm in the final stages of prep for Kingmaker, and want to make it awesome. My Legacy of Fire game ended not with a bang, but with a whimper, because frankly, I was a lousy DM, only stayed one step ahead of my players, and wasn't too great at making things up when they wanted to wander off the beaten path.

So I've taken a few months' break from GMing to make Kingmaker, like, at least twice as good. And I need your help.

I've done a good amount of research and such myself, so here's what I've got:

Spoiler:

First, the nitty-gritty: I have a party of six, and it looks like we'll be playing for a few hours at my place, once a fortnight. So far, the locked-in characters are an aasimar bard going for battle herald, a half-elf cleric of Desna, a dhampir sorcerer, and a human tetori monk. It looks like the last two, at this stage, will be a fighter and a ranger/rogue type. So with that out of the way...

  • I've been making my own pawns using Photoshop and a sheet of foamboard, hoping to have visual representations of everything my party is likely to encounter. (This is more for my sake - my players are fine with stand-ins and imagination, but I struggle without strong visual aids.)
  • DM_aka_Dudemeister's "Kingmaker expansion packs" are amazing and I will be shamelessly pillaging them.
  • I'll also be using the community-created 6-player conversions.
  • A local at my FLGS gave me the advice of encouraging my players to clear the map before beginning to build a kingdom.
  • A REALLY common piece of advice seems to be attempting to weave in the characters' backstories. A couple of my players have already provided me with some great plot hooks - the cleric's player has given me a four-generation family tree, including nieces and nephews, and the dhampir's vampire father could well show up at some point...
  • I'm already starting to gather ideas for kingdom events - am I the only one who wants a riverside settlement to be plagued with mortasheen? (Maybe it's because the nuckelavee in Fey Revisited gave me nightmares, and I want to inflict that terror on my vic- I mean, players.)
  • I'm also slowly working my way through the multitude of links presented here. There's a lot of community support for Kingmaker, it seems.

So!

What other recommendations do people have? Some specific things I'd like help with are:

  • How should I handle XP? Particularly if I want to add new content?
  • How can I better foreshadow the events of the later books, major enemies, and the sinister First World influence? I'm considering starting early, with the Stag Lord's green herbal liquor - that sounds a lot like absinthe, AKA the 'green fairy'... For extra points, perhaps it was even made at Whiterose Abbey... or would that not work with the timeline?
  • How can I keep the kingdom-building fresh and interesting? From what I hear, entire sessions can go by of micromanagement. Not a single one of my players wants to run the "kingdom in the background" option, and they're all enthusiastic about the nitty-gritty at this stage. How can I keep that interest high?
  • A more general question - as I'm sure my party will be selling a lot of loot at Oleg's, what items get sold at full price, and what gets sold at half price?
  • How much should I increase loot for 6 PCs instead of 4? The community conversions handily provide updated gear for important NPCs, but how should I handle the rest?
  • What third-party products can I look into to pilfer ideas? I don't have a lot of disposable income (most of it goes to my subs, because I have a problem), but I'd be willing to buy inexpensive products to improve the campaign.

I want to make this something my players will be talking about for years (because we could well be playing the damn thing for years), and I don't think I can do it alone. So show me what you've got - throw me links, advice, and constructive criticism, and help me go the extra mile. Or 12-mile hex, as the case may be.


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So far, I've run through the first module, and my players have just started kingdom-building in the second. Here are my pieces of advice:

Kingmaker advice:
Make the environment a character. Players are exploring the wilderness. Let them encounter wild animals. Let them encounter fey. Let them also encounter swamp muck, skittish horses, and bad weather. Preroll weather conditions (I went with about three months of weather), hand out the weather rules, and enforce them.

NPCs are paramount. Since your players are going to be living in this place, develop a lot of NPCs for them, including personalities, etc. I also suggest keeping a list of recurring characters, using the appendices of A Song of Ice and Fire as a model.

Make bandits active. The Stag Lord works pretty well as figure who doesn't get out of his keep very often, but you ought to make the other bandits active. Other people have posted on this board some very good additions for the bandits (including a hunt master, etc.) IMO, your players should meet Akiros, Dovan, and Auchs long before they assault the Stag Lord's keep. In particular, I think Dovan and Akiros have a very nice political dynamic that PCs can exploit if they catch wind of it before they attack.

Keep the fifteen-minute workday in mind. I found that my PCs, a group of five, blazed through even the six-player converted monsters. When exploring in the wilderness, the rhythm is arrive at hex, explore hex, have encounter in hex, rest up. Because of this, encounters will not challenge the players nearly as much as they should. I compensated for this by jacking up monsters even more and by checking for wandering monsters more frequently. This will keep your players challenged and on their toes.

Kobolds and mites. This is a fantastic little scenario, and it will probably be the defining political dynamic for levels 1-2. Players seem to enjoy it. Also, Tartuk works really well as a summoner rather than a sorcerer, with Old Sharptooth as his eidolon. Tartuk's also a fun recurring villain, so let him escape if at all possible.

Oleg's. Just for the sake of consistency, I let my players sell everything at Oleg's for full price, although Oleg wasn't always able to buy everything. I also kept items under control by imposing delivery times on items that had to be ordered from Restov.

Speaking of Oleg's, my players really enjoyed my Siege of Oleg's Rest scenario. Sorry about the cheap plug.

Foreshadowing Nyrissa. So far, my foreshadowing has been light. My Kingmaker is a mythic setting. Nyrissa has empowered certain enemies as her champion. When my players slay one of these enemies, a human-shaped storm of leaves with glowing eyes will materialize from the corpse. My players definitely suspect something is up, but they haven't

Kingdom-Building. First, use the Ultimate Campaign kingdom-building rules rather than the Kingmaker rules. Among other things, those rules fix the magic-item economy "feature" that made kingdom-building way too easy. As far as events, I suggest mixing the random events with events of your own design.

I also think you can keep it fresh by introducing complications once your players have the hang of it. Prime example: Kingdom leaders. NPCs appointed to leadership posts are not just robots. They're also characters with agenda and attitudes of their own. You can introduce little bits of intrigue in the council. I think Akiros, Dovan, and Kesten Garess are all good candidates for this.


Wow, pennywit. That is some incredible advice there! A lot of things I wouldn't have thought of!

Responses:

Environment as a character: Yes. I definitely need to preroll some weather now. Horses don't like thunder too much, do they? And I imagine a bandit ambush would be much more difficult in the rain...

NPCs: One of the best bits of feedback I got when DMing Legacy of Fire was that I did a great job of role-playing NPCs. (My players still talk about the goblin rogue/cleric and the unrepentant captured slaver.) It'll be interesting to see how I go with a large cast, but it's actually one of the things I'm most looking forward to. Particularly once they start building their kingdom, I'll be trying to flesh out as many minor characters as I can keep track of.

Active bandits: Once word gets out about the PCs, I'll probably throw a few ambushes at them. I'll have to go digging for the additions you mentioned. Playing up the dynamic between Dovan and Akiros is great - do you have any suggestions on how the PCs could meet them?

The 15-minute workday: Yeah, this seems to be a common problem. If the random encounter chance is 5% upon entering a hex, and 15% per day camping or exploring, how much more frequently would you suggest rolling? Or would it be easier to just bump the percentage up?

Mites vs. Kobolds: I already know my players are going to love this. As players, they all love forging alliances more than charging in to slaughter the living daylights out of things, so this will be good straight out of the box. I hadn't even thought of making Tartuk a summoner, but now that you mention it... Old Sharptooth as a 'living god' to the kobolds... holy cow, I think I need to go scribble down some notes. (Oh, and I don't mind the cheap plug. That's a fantastic scenario, and I'll have to bookmark that thread! Thanks!)

Kingdom-building: I have the pdf of Ultimate Campaign, and I'll be picking up the hardcover as the kingdom-building draws closer. I like the idea of the leadership council having its own rivalries and schisms... and as I mentioned above, I'd love to run a kingdom event with a rampaging Nuckelavee!

You've given me a lot to think about, that's for sure! Thank you!

Shadow Lodge

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I linked most of my recommendations in the other thread, so I'll just add this one thing.

Find out what your players want out of this campaign.

There are two really drastically different ways to approach Kingmaker, and I've seen very few groups who manage to embrace both.

One is a heavy focus on the political side, lots of diplomatic involvement within the kingdom itself and with its neighbors, lots of intrigue, lots of shady dealings and backstabbing and political upheaval. Very Game of Thronesish. If this is the route you want, Redcelt's guide - linked a few posts down from mine in Iced's thread - is your best bet, you can't go wrong there.

The other is to play the fey up to 11, turn the gonzoness of the faerie realm loose on the PCs as early as Chapter 2. This is the route I'm going, as I and my players are not particularly interested in heavy political intrigue. This means focusing a lot on the various fey NPCs - Tyg and Perl, Tiressia and Falchos, the Dancing Lady, the Spriggans, etc. etc. etc. - and perhaps introducing a few of your own, as needed, or whenever you think it's appropriate.

And play up the BBEG's connections everywhere, of course - that's a big one, bar none, regardless which route you take. The original writeup is dreadfully short on giving her actions that the PCs can actually learn about and start making connections to her until extremely late in the plot, and it hurts for it. Your suggested foreshadowing with Staggy is perfect... though I do believe the timeline is a bit wonky with Whiterose, yes; perhaps instead have it advertised with "Brewed with the famous Whiterose recipe"?


NP.

Responses to responses:

Weather. Here's the generator.

Active bandits. I started phasing in active bandits not long after the PCs resolved the mite/kobold contretemps. Akiros Ismort showed up at the ruined Erastil temple just after the PCs finished with it. He had a dream about the temple, but the PCs got there before he did. I didn't let them know (at first) that he was a bandit. They knew he was cagey as hell, but they couldn't get anything else out of him beyond that he was a worshiper of Erastil.

Later on, Dovan ambushed the PCs with a good-sized group of bandits. This group actually gave my players something to think about. I played up Dovan as an cunning leader. He did some fairly significant damage with sneak attacks, and his lackeys refused to let the enlarged barbarian stay within melee range.

In general, I think it's best to make the bandit encounters an escalating threat. It would start with some low-level threats, then go up from there. The bandits could do a lot of things to the PCs. Perhaps a group of bandits leads PCs on a merry melee in the woods ... as Dovan sneaks into camp and cuts loose all of their horses.

All sorts of things are possible. I would design encounters, then drop then in at appropriate moments. If you throw in Staggy himself directing an assault when the PCs are low level, you can even establish the bandit group as a highly reliable threat.

Another possibility (and one I wish I had tried) is to set up Staggy as a wannabe lord. The rank-and-file bandits will think of their work as banditry, but his officers should instead speak in terms of "tributes" and "levies" as the price of "the Stag's Peace."

Fifteen-minute work day. Other posters on the board offered some perspectives. A lot of them set up more frequent rolling schedules. Some vary the percentages. I started kicking up the number of times I rolled. Typically, I would do one percentage roll when they entered a hex, a second when they explored a hex (unless it had something in it), and a third when they bedded down for the night.

The wandering encounters are also an excellent way to add some dynamism to the Greenbelt.

Mites and kobolds. There are a couple different Tartuk summoner builds floating around. If I had to redo it, I would consider making him a sythesist summoner, just to up the danger level. Even without synthesis, though, a properly built Sharptooth is a real PITA for players, especially once Tartuk casts haste. I've also found that King Sootscale is handy to have around. My PCs formed their first treaty with him. He's an excellent partner/target to practice trade routes and diplomacy.

Kingdom. That nuckelavee looks like an excellent early-kingdom opponent. I suggest throwing him at the PCs after they establish some heavy industry on the Tuskwater.


Orthos wrote:

I linked most of my recommendations in the other thread, so I'll just add this one thing.

Find out what your players want out of this campaign.

Extremely good advice here. I've actually had a little bit of an issue with this one. One of my players is heavily into diplomacy, a couple are into tactical combat, and a couple seem up for whatever I throw at them. It's been something of a learning curve for me.


On the XP thing, for the first two books I used it, on the basis that it's a sandbox and the 'level up at an appropriate point' paradigm doesn't work so well when the players can tackle things in any order or skip them entirely.

It's a pain, though, so for book 3 onwards I'm going with a compromise: setting a number of 'achievements', with a level-up after every three achievements. Some of these will be important parts of the main plot, others will be the more significant side quests, at least one should be a landmark in kingdom building. And there will be a couple more than are necessary, so they can afford to miss some, or be really thorough and be well on their way to the next level at the end of the book.


Orthos wrote:

Find out what your players want out of this campaign.

There are two really drastically different ways to approach Kingmaker, and I've seen very few groups who manage to embrace both...

Yeah, I'm not sure which approach my group would be more interested in. I'm sure a couple of my players (the players of the silver-tongued sorcerer and the delusions-of-grandeur bard) would love to have a political bent, but such things are hard for me to run. So it looks like I'll definitely have to play up the otherworldly influence of the fey. As for Staggy's liquor, a few bottles of "Green Fairy absinthe (brewed with the famous Whiterose recipe!)" it is, then. Now to start looking for more connections...

pennywit wrote:
Responses to responses...

That weather generator alone is great. You're a legend. I don't know how I manage to overlook so many great resources.

I'm just going to shamelessly pinch your ideas, okay? I particularly love the idea of Dovan cutting the horses loose while rank-and-file bandits distract the PCs. And ooh, Staggy as a wannabe lord is a good, juicy opportunity...

I know I want my PCs to ally with Akiros, and I'm pretty sure they'll end up doing so. Encountering him before the fort will drive that home. And hmm, perhaps a chase or two could even be in order...

Thanks for the advice on random encounter rolls. I'll play it by the book at first, then bump it up if it seems too low. Might also fire up HeroLab and play around with a kobold synthesist... there's no way Tartuk can't be a summoner now!

Thrund wrote:
On the XP thing...

That's actually a really good idea. I assume you don't tell your players which achievements will count? That could work a treat if I'm going to be adding lots of my own content...

Shadow Lodge

Good places for Kingdom Building achievements are the points where your Ruler's title changes. Others could be building X self-sustaining cities (so don't award it until the cities have proven they can survive), enduring a particularly nasty kingdom event, making an alliance with a neighbor (be it fellow colony like Varnhold, or native tribe of creatures - though I imagine the Sootscales and Nomen, being so close to the plot, are their own achievements), and/or surviving a sabotage/assassination/etc. attempt.


Pinch away, my friend. I'd love to know how your campaign goes. I'm still bemused over how my group's Stag Lord encounter went. I redid Staggy as a mythic opponent, honed his abilities, created tactical routines ... and then I learned how much damage a rogue can do on a coup de grace.

My players started chuckling when they saw my face after I rolled Staggy's Fort save.


First...'NPCs, NPCs, NPCs'. Create the local hunters/trappers that must be stopping in occasionally at Oleg's, set a few names/personalities for a few of the Lizardmen in the Lizardfolk village. Have some personalities of the roaming bandits ready toon go....everyone is ready for Happs to be questioned after the fight at Oleg's, but he is not likely to be the only survivor, so create a backstory or two, and paste it on to whichever bandits survive (same for the Thorn River camp).
IMC, the future Baron ended up marrying one of the trapper's the party met while holding a massive 'Tuskgutter BBQ' party, and she's turned out to be pretty interesting.

Second, let the players see the effects of what they do. Well before they defeat the Stag Lord, they should see increased traffic/trade around Oleg's, and perhaps meet a farming family that is striking south out of Brevoy after they've heard that it is getting safer.

Once Kingdom building starts, those effects include watching an area become more civilized...seeing traffic on the roads they've built, passing through the odd hamlet that has sprung up in one of the claimed/settled hexes, etc.

Kingmaker requires a lot more work to make it reach its potential, but the payoff is significant.


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Ramarren wrote:
the odd hamlet that has sprung up in one of the claimed/settled hexes

And the ophelia down at the river ...

Liberty's Edge

For foreshadowing, at first i used a "fey tendril" quick template on some of the random encounters. Basically a parasitic vine that contralled and enhanced animals to attack representatives of civilization such as the pcs. After death, the vine slinks off and returns to the first world.

For XP, I just award xp per player for the session. Just calculate roughly how fast you want the charactors to advance, and award XP accordingly. The side effect is that the kill everything mentality changes along with changing the XP award system.

Liberty's Edge

Also, many of the hostile npcs, such as the crazy hermit in the first book, should have journals or owther writings nearby raving in cryptic terms about a "green lady" Every time this pops up, my playes get curious about who the "green lady" is.

Also, since the wealth for the pcs assumes that everyone the pcs meet is killed and looted, I added some alternate sources of wealth.

If the pcs befriend the kobolds or mites, you could provide a "profit sharing" gold payment between books one and two to bring the pcs up to wealth by level or so. And to avoid punishing the non violent solutions.

And I have ended up using simular between books payments for other befriended or negotiated settlements rather than the anticipated violence and looting.


That reminds me. One suggestion I saw here on the boards (don't know where) was to give PCs on the rulership council a small stipend, representing money for their personal use provided by the kingdom. This helps with WBL. I also assume that the kingdom provides them with a lifestyle roughly similar to its size and prosperity.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I just straight up let the players earn GP.
Barony earns 50 GP/month.
Duchy earns 100 GP/month.
Kingdom earns 1,000 GP/month.

Scarab Sages

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If you want to have some political intrigue and schisms, I recommend adding minions for each council position, increasing their number as the party and kingdom grows. For instance, give the warden a couple of scouts that they can sasign to various places in the kingdom, give the marshall a few patrol leaders, the treasurer a master of coin, the ruler a chamberlain, etc.

This lets you do things like have some of them be spies, have them blackmailed, have feuds with other NPCs or PCs, etc. You can also have relationships start easier with NPCs that end up spending a lot of time around the NPCs much easier than if they just pop up suddenly.

Sovereign Court

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How exciting - starting a new Kingmaker adventure path. I wrapped up a three-year Kingmaker campaign about a year ago. Loads of fun.

Suggestions:
1) I'd fudge the map and make Restov farther away. As written, Oleg's is only a couple of days away by the highway. I'd want it to be a week or two. I might even double the size of each hex, making them 24 miles across (about 500 sq miles). I'd also sprinkle a couple of existing settlements, thorps really, around the Stolen Lands.

2) I think starting off, I wouldn't make the PCs the center of attention. They'd be hirelings for a more notable petty-noble who was setting off to conquer the Stolen Lands. I'd ramp up the expedition-member roles (see #3 below) to accentuate that they work for the big guy. More focus on just how hard exploring really is, effects of terrain and weather, more random encounters, etc. Then this leader guy would turn out to be a looser and might hide from combat or might just die early in the story, during or soon after the first couple of bandit encounters. Might be cool to make him die by the Stag Lord's hand. Give the PC's a moment of ... uh, what do we do now? Then they have to nut up and finish the job without the boss. Restov might be in a bind and might not want to recognize the PCs claims to the territory but not have any choice, facts on the ground.

3) I didn't create them originally, but I did a lot of work on developing roles for each party member in the initial exploration party, things like "medic" and "cartographer." Each offers a small benefit to the player and/or party, but it also makes sure the party has all its bases covered and runs like a real exploratory mission. It's also a preview for the roles the party will take in running the kingdom later. Here is the link.

4) Before the PCs leave Restov, I'd have a party or something hosted by the Sword Lords where they'd meet Meager Varn, Drelev and the Iron Wraiths (the leaders of the the other 3 Brevoy-sponsored exploration missions). As written, they just knew too little about their neighbors until it was action time. I'd want them to know what's going on and have relationships (good or bad) with these folks from the beginning. It's would make later events more meaningful.

5) Find ways to elongate the timeline, especially in the beginning. My players rose 14 levels in 2 or 3 years. I'd like to see them age a bit more before they become rulers of a huge kingdom. Maybe have a year of downtime now and then when they're not advancing in levels (maybe award them each a bonus kingdom-building feat instead).

5a) With regard to XP and levels, I stopped keeping track of XP fairly quickly and just leveled everyone at certain times, after completing particular parts of the story. This also provides a way to slow down their progression a little if you're finding them too powerful.

6) Pretty soon after establishing their kingdom, say the end of Ch2 or after exploring the west side of the mountain in Ch3, maybe level 6 or 7, I might have the players create 2nd characters. It just seems odd to me that the duke/duchess is running around doing odd jobs like gathering eels and roc eggs. Not very dignified. Also, my players obviously want to be at the center of all the action, but would a real ruler really be out there fighting and exploring like that? It also means that the base-line encounters have to scale up with the PCs, so by Ch3 and Ch4, just walking around the Stolen Lands is potentially pretty epic deadly from the perspective of an NPC commoner or warrior. If players rolled up a second character, 1st or 2nd level, the second string could work for the original PCs, the rulers. The new guys could continue exploring (at lower levels of danger, making the Stolen Lands a bit more even) and the ruler characters could engage in political stuff and come out of "retirement" to deal with the really hard stuff.

7) Bring in the Rushlight Tournament much earlier, like at a point where the PCs are still newcomers trying to prove themselves and show that their petty kingdom needs to be taken seriously. As it is, in Ch5, why the heck would the kings and queens enter the competition as competitors? If you use my suggestion #6 from above, this help a little; the junior PCs could be there representing the senior PCs.

7a) Pitax and Mivon are real kingdoms very close the PCs, not upstarts like Fort Drelev and Varnhold. PCs should have encounters with Pitax and Mivon early on, even if it is just going to the big city to go shopping or signing treaties to establish borders.

8) Work in more hints about the final BBG earlier. I tacked on the Fellnight Queen module between Ch2 and Ch3, and I think that kept the fey theme going a bit more. Actually both of my groups used the Fellnight Queen's scrying mirror to survey the surrounding lands and discovered the surprise in Ch3! They had to hightail it over there.

9) I'd like to lower the magic level quite a bit. Moving Restov helps with that a little (limiting access to purchasable magic items), as would limiting or eliminating Craft Magic Stuff feats. I'd be hesitant to completely ban them, but maybe require unique components they'd have to side-trek to acquire. Jack up the cost of special materials like adamantite and mithril. Replace the Magic Item Economy in kingdom building with some other means of generating regular BP. Consider limiting travel magic like teleport, or making it a ritual that takes hours to prepare or something. Be a lot stricter on scrolls they can find for purchase.

10) Really consider a level cap like E6 or E8. My players were pretty experienced, and it just gets silly around 11th or 12th level what they can do. In my opinion, the grittier you can keep Kingmaker, the better.

Have fun and I hope all the suggestions from this thread inspire you!

[Note: Some of the above suggestions are reposted from an old thread here.]

Sovereign Court

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Orthos wrote:
And play up the BBEG's connections everywhere, of course - that's a big one, bar none, regardless which route you take.

Several of my bosses along the way had magic rings made out of woven green hair (Nyissa's). Whatever magic was appropriate for them boss - ring of protection, a ring of fire resistance for a certain troll, the flawed ring of animal friendship, etc. Most wouldn't even know where they got them, only that the "green lady" had come to them in their dreams. When they woke up, they found the rings. Much later, these ring gave her an easy way to scry on the PCs.

Sovereign Court

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pennywit wrote:
Active bandits... If you throw in Staggy himself directing an assault when the PCs are low level, you can even establish the bandit group as a highly reliable threat.

YES. I didn't do this and both of my groups met him for the first time in the fort, drunk. He's an archer! Trapped in his little room, he's not that nig a challenge. One group killed him quick, but the other flubbed the assault and he pursued them. THAT was a memorable villain and much more satisfying later once the finally dealt with him. Make them hate him first.

Sovereign Court

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Oh!

11) Find a way to start dropping bits about mad Zuddiger and "Zuddiger's Picnic" early on. Maybe just stories out of Pitax. Or have them find a copy of the book early on (on Candlemere!). It plays a major part in Ch6, but when the players find out about it in Ch6, the link it too obvious. If they find it early on, get creeped out, and forget about it... only to realize much later that it's important. Here is a link to some amazing artwork a guy named Anthony Ian did. Unfortunately, he never seems to have finished, but when I made a copy of the book on parchment paper, I just did crazy ink-blot pictures for the remaining pages to show Zuddiger's growing madness.


Mosaic wrote:
pennywit wrote:
Active bandits... If you throw in Staggy himself directing an assault when the PCs are low level, you can even establish the bandit group as a highly reliable threat.
YES. I didn't do this and both of my groups met him for the first time in the fort, drunk. He's an archer! Trapped in his little room, he's not that nig a challenge. One group killed him quick, but the other flubbed the assault and he pursued them. THAT was a memorable villain and much more satisfying later once the finally dealt with him. Make them hate him first.

In this respect, I kind of prefer the more passive Staggy. I like the idea that he's gone totally nuts and sits in his room drinking and talking to the walls. But if I had to do it again, I think I would play up the Stag Lord a lot more. Tales of his archery, maybe even a couple frightening encounters where they see just how crazy the guy is.

Shadow Lodge

Mosaic wrote:
Orthos wrote:
And play up the BBEG's connections everywhere, of course - that's a big one, bar none, regardless which route you take.
Several of my bosses along the way had magic rings made out of woven green hair (Nyissa's). Whatever magic was appropriate for them boss - ring of protection, a ring of fire resistance for a certain troll, the flawed ring of animal friendship, etc. Most wouldn't even know where they got them, only that the "green lady" had come to them in their dreams. When they woke up, they found the rings. Much later, these ring gave her an easy way to scry on the PCs.

Yup, this is exactly what I did. I based them off the Jabberwock, which I turned into sort of a personal symbol for her - Staggy's gave him DR 5/vorpal, Hargulka's gave him an altered Half-Dragon template, Irovetti's gives him Burble and some bonuses to diplomacy and intimidate, etc. and so forth.

Shadow Lodge

Quote:
6) Pretty soon after establishing their kingdom, say the end of Ch2 or after exploring the west side of the mountain in Ch3, maybe level 6 or 7, I might have the players create 2nd characters. It just seems odd to me that the duke/duchess is running around doing odd jobs like gathering eels and roc eggs. Not very dignified. Also, my players obviously want to be at the center of all the action, but would a real ruler really be out there fighting and exploring like that? It also means that the base-line encounters have to scale up with the PCs, so by Ch3 and Ch4, just walking around the Stolen Lands is potentially pretty epic deadly from the perspective of an NPC commoner or warrior. If players rolled up a second character, 1st or 2nd level, the second string could work for the original PCs, the rulers. The new guys could continue exploring (at lower levels of danger, making the Stolen Lands a bit more even) and the ruler characters could engage in political stuff and come out of "retirement" to deal with the really hard stuff.

This one on the other hand I disagree with.

I made it very clear to my players when they began the game that they would be the head-honchos out here, in a fledgling colony/kingdom in the middle of nowhere. They would, eventually, likely be the most skilled, the most capable people in the area. More importantly, people - not just their citizens, but also their fellow rulers from neighboring lands - would generally expect them to deal with their problems personally. Out here even the lords have to get their hands dirty, there's no call for laziness and lounging when there's work to be done on the frontier. Nobody gets a free ride, even the rulers. There would be no "send hirelings or servants to deal with problems", there would be no "retire to my castle/tower/townhouse/whatever and let the army handle the situation". The kingdom simply wouldn't be big enough and have enough capable people outside the PCs to do such a thing until after Kingmaker was over.

Simply put, people in the Stolen Lands will expect Royals to Actually Do Something. (Warning: TVTropes Abyss alert)

Knowing that from the get-go, I haven't had to deal with questions (OOCly) like "I'm the duchess/magister/whatever, why am I tromping around the wilderness instead of sending soldiers/spies/a hit squad to handle everything?" There's been some IC grumbling, sure, but it's more commonly "Why do we have to investigate this (at all)?" than "why can't we just send minions to do it?"

I have taken the liberty of removing most of the "fetch quest" type sidetracks such as collecting troll blood, shambler sap, and eels, or in the case of the Roc quest do as Dudemeister suggested and tie it into Nomen ritual so it's less "I want an egg for a super-omelette, go get me one" and more "we need this egg for important traditional ritual purposes, and obtaining the egg is part of the test". While like I said I want Royals who Do Something, there's a point where something is just considered beneath your dignity and generally not worth the effort (unless your characters have a personal interest - for example a couple of mine have Alchemy as a hobby so gathering Troll Blood was in their own initiative; I just had the quest guy offer to buy some from them after the Hargulka debacle was over).


Mosaic wrote:
Several of my bosses along the way had magic rings made out of woven green hair (Nyissa's). Whatever magic was appropriate for them boss - ring of protection, a ring of fire resistance for a certain troll, the flawed ring of animal friendship, etc.

Nice to know I wasn't the only one who did this, including giving Hargulka a ring of fire resistance. So far that's the only one of them which the party are actually using.

Rather than make it easier to scry on them, I've made the rings impose a -1 on saves against fey magic (-2 against Nyrissa herself).


Yeah, the sidequests don't make a lot of sense for nobles, IMO, once you get past book 2 or so. In Book 2, I've kept in some of the sidequests/fetch quests because it makes sense for the people of a frontier town to ask the local noble to, for example, take care of a giant turtle or a forest drake. But I tend to tweak the rewards. "Kingdom pays you x gold" doesn't make sense when you ARE the kingdom. And some of it just gets plain ridiculous once you get past a certain level of power.

Before next session, I'm brewing a nice little tangle for my PCs involving a faction of Erastil-worshipping paladins and inquisitors, the ruined temple, and ongoing resentment between Dovan and Akiros.

Shadow Lodge

I'm in the middle of GMing Kingmaker at the moment to a group of 5 players. We have started book 3 and, as I write this the PCs are investigating Varnhold.
Here are my responses to your questions:

How should I handle XP? Particularly if I want to add new content?
I have run one other AP (Council of Thieves) and I didn't track XP in that, I just levelled the PCs as per the recommended levels in the Books. It was quick, dirty, but didn't get in way of the game.
For Kingmaker though, I'm tracking XP as per the rules. What helps is that I have 5 players, so the extra XP from added content makes up for the fact that they are getting less XP per encounter (as written).
Additionally I'm reducing the number of random encounters when exploring. This is because that, when I run any game, I want each combat to be significant and random encounters don't always provide that. In fact I find that, unless you plan every one, they can just be a distraction and slow the game down. That's not to say that I remove them, I just reduce the number or make them very specific to the session.
The result has been that, even with the introduction of additional content, I still have PCs that are only slightly ahead with XP, and I know I can level that out.

How can I better foreshadow the events of the later books, major enemies, and the sinister First World influence? I'm considering starting early, with the Stag Lord's green herbal liquor - that sounds a lot like absinthe, AKA the 'green fairy'... For extra points, perhaps it was even made at Whiterose Abbey... or would that not work with the timeline?

There are loads of great suggestions on this board. Here's what i have done in my game to foreshadow the first World influence and the BBEG:
1. Starting from the Stag Lord, everyone significant bad guy has had a shard of what looks like a mirror in their possession. This as a magical aura that fades in time (Enchantment and Divination). Additionally these have become more 'dangerous' later in the game. In one instance, as soon as one PC touched it, it caused a 2 point bleed attack that needed at level a 2nd-level healing spell to stem - there was a real panic as the Wizard was rapidly bleeding to death.
Using the mirror shard links the bad guys together somehow, but the PCs don't know why (the BBEG used them to communicate/spy on the NPCs). They know that they come from a mirror, but don't know what mirror. Of course, the plan is that they will find the broken mirror in the BBEG House in Book 6 - it will be the same looking mirror as the one owned by Rhoswen in the Fellnight Queen scenario.
2. From day one, one of the PCs has dreamt of two children lost in the woods. The girl is calling out the name 'Briar'. The PCs don't know what or who Briar is.
I worked with a player to create the background for a new PC introduced to Kingmaker after a PC death. She is an Aasimar and believes that she has come to the newly formed Kingdom to save 'Briar'. She believes that Briar is a child.
Svetlana and Oleg have had twins - a boy and a girl. The girls first word was (you guessed it) 'Briar'.
The have no idea what Briar is, but they know that it/he/she is important somehow.
3. I have incorporated two other modules - The Carnival of Tears and The Fellnight Queen (a popular choice I believe).
For the carnival of tears, I brought the carnival to the PCs capital (Stags Fort, the location of the Staglords fort in Book one) during a very very very cold winter. They learned from the Nymph that some other First World force has corrupted the carnival and summoned the Cold Rider. The module was great - especially since the PCs were seeing NPCs from their own capital killed - including one of their own Council.
The Fellnight Queen module is perfect for incorporation. I actually placed all the locations in the Narlmarches whilst the PCs were hexploring and introduced the gnome as part of the expedition in book 2. It was Tatzlford that was attacked by Spriggans and the same fey from book 1 and the Carnival of Tears. The PCs killed Rhoswen but have later learnt that the threat is not over. They don't know if she will return or something else. In my game Rhoswen is a divided part of the BBEGs physical and mental self.
I will do more, but what I have done so far as brought a coherence to the story that wasn't evident before.

How can I keep the kingdom-building fresh and interesting? From what I hear, entire sessions can go by of micromanagement. Not a single one of my players wants to run the "kingdom in the background" option, and they're all enthusiastic about the nitty-gritty at this stage. How can I keep that interest high?

The Kingdom building aspect is cool, but don't let it rule your game or take over an entire session.. This is how I have approached it:
I have 2 players that really like the kingdom building aspect, 1 that hates that metagame, 2 that are ambivalent to it. The 3 people less interested are happy for the other 2 get on with it, as long as they have a chance to review it. I have an out of game discussion with the 2 players about what they want to do, and make the rolls then for events. This is for the long periods between the books (2 years passed between books 2 and 3). For individual months i let them happen in game, but might leave it to the end of an evening so it doesn't interrupt play.
We use the Ultimate Campaign rules rather than the KM ones and I recommend you do also. We also use a spreadsheet and Obsidian Portal for our KM game which really helps.
As far as keeping it fresh is concerned, I do not 'GM' the kingdom building part - merely facilitate it. I ask the PCs to name every building, describe the NPCs that run them, come up with the flag for their kingdom and the uniform of their militia. They have just created a treasury and spent an entertaining 15mins deciding on the names for their coins! Basically I go out of my way to make the kingdom THEIRS. I also don't let them get away from hard choices. They created an alliance with the kobolds, but then starting farming the area around the silver mines. Suddenly there were skirmishes between the farmers and the kobolds that they needed to deal with. They had had to convince the Swamp Witch that she will be left alone, and the game with the Boggard.
I don't let it drag the game down, but they do have to act like they are running a Kingdom.
In short, play up the fluff in game and deal with the crunch separately.

A more general question - as I'm sure my party will be selling a lot of loot at Oleg's, what items get sold at full price, and what gets sold at half price? [/6]
I made them sell at 1/2 price until they made a point of dealing the Thorn River Camp - at that point they became firm friends with Oleg and he game them full price. It didn't make a massive difference and his purchasing power isn't that great. They've had to travel to Restov to sell bigger items; before they built up their Kingdom that is..

[b]How much should I increase loot for 6 PCs instead of 4? The community conversions handily provide updated gear for important NPCs, but how should I handle the rest?
I didn't. Including the 2 extra modules has brought in more gear, and two of the PCs are making their own magic items and armour. It's balanced itself nicely at the moment...

What third-party products can I look into to pilfer ideas? I don't have a lot of disposable income (most of it goes to my subs, because I have a problem), but I'd be willing to buy inexpensive products to improve the campaign.

I don't use any 3rd party products but have used:
Carnival of Tears
Fellnight Queen
The Harrowing (I'm using this very soon. Another attempt by the BBEG to upset the Kingdom..)
Revenge of the Kobold King (I'm using parts of the plot but upping the stats) - Chief Sootscale is going to be brought back from the dead and seek his revenge on the PCs.
Chronicles: Guide to the River Kingdoms - loads of juicy info on the lands around, as well as the Stolen Lands themselves.

Other comments:
NPCs! Flood your KM campaign with them from day one. The more the merrier. Keep a spreadsheet (you don't need stats really) and make them interesting. Make up a new NPC for every session (even if you don't use her). Find opportunities to connect them to the PCs.

Here are examples from my own KM game:
Mikmek the kobold fell in love with a PC priestess of Gorum. He literally worshipped her. The PCs made him the executioner for a while. He had a two-handed sword he could barely lift which he dragged around their castle make a loud scrapping noise. They had to remove him because he was too 'enthusiastic' to impress the Priestess and kept threatening to kill citizens of the city. He left one night after the priestess was killed (not by him) and has not been seen since. He's off to reform the Sootscale tribe after the PCs killed their king (Sootscale was talked into betraying the PCs alliance by Hargulka the Troll..)

The Werewolf event in Book 2. The PCs got the chance to capture the werewolf and removed the curse. He and a PC fell in love and are now married, he is the kingdoms 'general' and they have a baby daughter. This month mum and dad had a falling out when she wanted to 'go off with her friends' to Varnhold and he reminded her of her responsibilities too her husband and daughter. It's not all marriage bliss..
The Gyronna Cult in Book 2. I did this differently and introduced the lead cultist (changed to a Witch rather than a Cleric) as a woman who had lost her family in the Carnival of Tears (a lie). One of the PCs nurtured her and she played up to him. Ultimately they were married. Other NPCs warned him about her (a NPC priestess of Shelyn said she was rotten to core!) but he ignored them (love is blind). She got pregnant with his child. Then the PCs found evidence that the cult was in their capital and that she was the leader! There was a confrontation and she told him that, though she did love him honestly, she really only wanted his child. If a girl she would be indoctrinated into the all-female cult, if a boy. She was put under house arrest until the birth..
That subplot resulted in a midnight attack in their own castle by a number of servants that were actually cultists and a small dungeon crawl under the castle (remember, the fort was built over Gyronna temple in book 1). The climax was witnessing the birth of the PCs child, a boy, and stopping the mother and cultists from completing their vile deed. They also have found out that the 'Black Sisters are preparing the way for the Twice Born' (forshadowing book 4). The PC is now a single parent with a baby boy to look after...

As you can see, a lot of happened that isn't in the KM campaign. This to me is why Kingmaker is brilliant. You can make it your own. I enjoyed running Council of Thieves, and added some stuff to it, but KM takes it to another level. The PCs are running their kingdom, dealing with parenthood, making magic items, as well as investigating this mysterious threat and a sense of impending doom, that hangs over the country.

The NPCs, and getting your PCs to be emotionally tied to both them, and the kingdom, is the key to success I think.

I hope this was helpful (and thanks for your patience!! :D )


How should I handle XP?
-- I've started to ignore it, but I am still tracking it for myself, just to see what happens.

How can I better foreshadow the events of the later books, major enemies, and the sinister First World influence? I'm considering starting early, with the Stag Lord's green herbal liquor - that sounds a lot like absinthe, AKA the 'green fairy'... For extra points, perhaps it was even made at Whiterose Abbey... or would that not work with the timeline?

-- I'd be concerned that it would pop up way too early, it could be years before "Whiterose Abbey" reappears.

How can I keep the kingdom-building fresh and interesting? From what I hear, entire sessions can go by of micromanagement. Not a single one of my players wants to run the "kingdom in the background" option, and they're all enthusiastic about the nitty-gritty at this stage. How can I keep that interest high?

-- I don't know that you can keep it high yourself, that will depend on them. I suggest staying flexible, that you could fade it out if you need to.

-- Always look for opportunities to make NPCs into interesting people.

-- Let time be fast or slow, as needed. Don't be afraid to pass seasons or years between adventures, especially once the new kingdom is established and item crafting begins.

-- Let there be at least a little political-diplomatic contact between the players', Varn's, and Drelev's realms. An earlier Rushlight Tournament would be a great place for this.


First, I just want to thank you all for your input. Even if I don't reply to/thank you individually, I appreciate every word. I honestly wasn't expecting so much help and advice, and it's got me feeling more confident than ever. I might even keep a campaign journal on the boards, if anyone's interested in seeing how it all works out...

Orthos wrote:
Good places for Kingdom Building achievements are the points where your Ruler's title changes... [snip]

Some great suggestions there. Cheers! It will be fun to tie them in with creating my own kingdom events...

Ramarren wrote:

'NPCs, NPCs, NPCs'. Create the local hunters/trappers that must be stopping in occasionally at Oleg's, set a few names/personalities for a few of the Lizardmen in the Lizardfolk village. Have some personalities of the roaming bandits ready toon go....everyone is ready for Happs to be questioned after the fight at Oleg's, but he is not likely to be the only survivor, so create a backstory or two, and paste it on to whichever bandits survive (same for the Thorn River camp).

Second, let the players see the effects of what they do. Well before they defeat the Stag Lord, they should see increased traffic/trade around Oleg's, and perhaps meet a farming family that is striking south out of Brevoy after they've heard that it is getting safer.

I've already started building personalities for a few trappers and the like, so it's good to know it was a bright idea. I don't have too many of those :P

I'll definitely take the second suggestion on board - I guess that fits in really well with trying to make the environment feel alive! It will feel more satisfying for the players to build, for example, road hexes, and see other people travelling them from town to town.

pendothrax wrote:

Also, many of the hostile npcs, such as the crazy hermit in the first book, should have journals or owther writings nearby raving in cryptic terms about a "green lady" Every time this pops up, my playes get curious about who the "green lady" is.

Also, since the wealth for the pcs assumes that everyone the pcs meet is killed and looted, I added some alternate sources of wealth. ..

I'll pinch the journals suggestion, and implement it where it feels appropriate. Maybe have each one refer to her differently, just to avoid giving too much away? I like your alternate wealth sources, too! I'm realizing I'll need to play a lot of stuff by ear...

redcelt32 wrote:
If you want to have some political intrigue and schisms, I recommend adding minions for each council position, increasing their number as the party and kingdom grows. For instance, give the warden a couple of scouts that they can sasign to various places in the kingdom, give the marshall a few patrol leaders, the treasurer a master of coin, the ruler a chamberlain, etc.

Excellent idea. Consider it pinched. Just because they're running a kingdom together, doesn't mean they all have to get along... ;-)

Mosaic wrote:
[Too much awesome stuff to repeat]

1) Good idea. I didn't realize Oleg's was so close to Restov. Making it farther away would help the PCs feel more like they're on their own.

2) I've seen this mentoned a few times on the boards, and I love it. Maybe have Staggy kill off the leader as a warning... of course, what self-respecting band of adventurers would listen?

3) Also great - I think I first saw them when I was looking through DM's "expansions". Anything that actually encourages my players to take notes is a win.

5) Absolutely. I'll be encouraging them to take a month or two of downtime here and there. Thankfully, they're all really excited about the prospect of running the place. And since they're gravitating towards the longer-lived races, a decade or two could well pass...

7) I like the idea of introducing it earlier, particularly if they spend a few years developing their kingdom - if it's an annual event, why don't they hear of it until book 5? I'd probably make the events challenging, make the PCs feel like they really are the new kids on the block - then let them reap their rewards once they reach the 'proper' time for the tournament. And I'd especially like to see the dhampir sorcerer/diplomat travelling to some of the other kingdoms in his downtime...

9&10) I like the suggestions on limiting teleportation magic and the like. I don't know how my players feel about a low-magic campaign - the cleric and sorcerer might not like it so much, but I think the rogue and fighter will enjoy the feeling of getting by on their own skills and wits. I doubt any of my players would want a level cap like E6, though. I'll just have to find ways to cope. None of them are rules-hungry enough to break the game and exploit things I hadn't considered... yet!

11) Oh, thank you for that link! That work is glorious, and it's a shame it's incomplete. Hmm, it should be easy enough to have a copy of the book show up at some point. The trick will be making my players pay attention to it without wanting to investigate it at once.

pennywit wrote:
Before next session, I'm brewing a nice little tangle for my PCs involving a faction of Erastil-worshipping paladins and inquisitors, the ruined temple, and ongoing resentment between Dovan and Akiros.

Oh my god, why didn't I think of this?!

Nevarre wrote:
[Too much stuff to repeat]

Alright, I'm definitely nicking the ideas surrounding Briar. They're just brilliant. It looks like those two modules are popular tie-ins - I might have to pick them up when money allows. Regarding loot, it doesn't look like anyone's going to be focusing on crafting - the only casters are a cleric and a sorcerer, and the cleric's less focused on staying at home making wands, and more focused on getting out and getting s&!~ done. ;-) I guess I'll just play it by ear, see where everyone's at at each level.

Linking the major enemies via rings seems to be a common idea, and I have to say, I like it. Even if they aren't all working together, they're all workng to the same ends... And I'm seeing a common piece of advice in making my players care about NPCs! Thankfully, that was the one thing I seemed to do right during my last campaign!

Scarab Sages

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If you are looking for a little pre-built tension between NPCs, Kesten and Akiros work well. Kesten is a noble all about putting down the filthy bandits, and Akiros is a likely redemption case. This to me was an easy oil and water combo.

Details:
In our game, Akiros helped save the half-brother of the queen and was pardoned. The Queen basically since she could take his life, his belonged to her now and he was expected to give it in order to protect her and her family. So he her Queen's guard.

Kesten was upset he was pardoned, but begrudgingly agreed that he might deserve another chance. However, it upset him greatly that Akiros was given such close trust and reward for basically being a murdering outlaw. At this point, he was the Lord Marshall and had faithfully helped the PCs, often showing up with his men if they got in a pinch (the party was very careful in the beginning about saying where they were going and for how long), and also saving their lives several times.

He bit his tongue, but things did NOT get better when the Queen made him her cohort and took her everywhere with her as a bodyguard. The final straw was awarding him a magical sword and armor of the same type that Kesten used. So began the blood feud.

The funniest part is the players really didn't get why Kesten hated Akiros so much. The two got in a fistfight in a tavern as the first indication something was wrong, but no one really paid much attention. At this point, both men are doing little things to rub salt in the wound, so its only a matter of time now before things boil over.

So keep an eye on these two in your own game as well, it might lead to some high drama.

Shadow Lodge

redcelt32 wrote:

If you are looking for a little pre-built tension between NPCs, Kesten and Akiros work well. Kesten is a noble all about putting down the filthy bandits, and Akiros is a likely redemption case. This to me was an easy oil and water combo.

** spoiler omitted **

So keep an eye on these two in your own game as well, it might lead to some high drama.

A similar event happened in my game, after several months of Kesten giving Akiros the stinkeye every time they were in the same room. It got even worse when the party put their council together - Akiros got to be on the council as Councilor, while Kesten didn't since we had all the other martial roles (General, Warden, Marshall) covered by either PCs or NPCs who better suited the position, but was constantly present to be Svetlana (initial Treasurer)'s bodyguard.

The Ruler eventually took notice of it, sat both men down and got their stories (had to near choke Akiros's out of him, and even then, he made her not only swear to tell no one [though he did eventually end up having to spill it to the rest of the PCs, due to the fallout from an assassination attempt] but also cough up her own backstory as well), and got them to cooperate and behave civilly toward one another.

Kesten eventually becoming the General's right-hand man, lead field commander, and colony's interim General while the party's away in Varnhold also helped a lot.


Huh, thought I posted again a while back. Ah well.

I'm finally wrapping up the prep for the first few sessions. The expedition will be led by a minor noble called Andrik Nesti, who may or may not meet a horrible fate early on, forcing the PCs to band together and realize that they can't go back to Brevoy - by some coincidence, each of the three who've supplied backstories have reasons why they had to leave for their own good!

I'm looking forward to playing up the dynamic between Kesten and Akiros - I know at least one player will want to work over the redemption case.

I'm worried about half of my players, though. One of them has a bipolar disorder, and he's gone into one of his cycles - he's deleted his Facebook (and never gave me his phone number), and the only player who has his number is having trouble getting hold of him. Of the other two, they've ignored my request of "alignments within one step of NG" - one made a LE monk, and complained when I reminded him of the alignment restriction, saying that LG wouldn't work for his character at all, so I eventually caved and allowed him to play LN. I'll have to watch him very closely. The other said he wanted to work towards the assassin PrC, and went all quiet and sulky when I told him I wasn't allowing evil characters. Add in the fact that these two are "filthy number-crunching power-gamers" (their words) and I'm starting to wonder how long I can put up with it.

Ah well. I'll put up a campaign journal once my players are all ready to go - I doubt anyone will read it, but it'll be a good exercise.

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