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Ok, I want to make a villain out off a fallen high priest.
He led many of his faithful followers to their death's and got cursed with lichdom, being tricked by a devil into unwittingly completing an unholy ritual.
Now I want to bring this former priest back to make an appropriate challenge for a 12th lvl party. The lich's levels are undefined, but assume he was able to cast 9th lvl cleric spells before his fall from grace.
It seemed like a fun idea but now I have no idea how to stat him up or what to use or do to make it a challenging foe. I definitely do not want to give him clerical spells, but might give him up to 3 other class levels. Which might be rogue, aristocrat or anything else entirely.
Do any of you Paizonians have insights on how to go about this ?
As a lone creature action economy is not on his side so he would have to be a CR 15 at least.
You are going to have to adhoc the CR. Those 12 cleric levels he cant use should probably be treated like NPC class level so Actually I would make him a CR 9 based on his other class levels, and then add on the 12 useless levels. <---I am aware that CR rules dont support this method.
Another idea is to have the 12 cleric levels be flavor. That way he is not hindered mechanically, and say he retrained into __________
3rd option:
If he is legitimately evil he could just take up the worshipping of a new deity and keep his cleric levels.
I just caught that he was a 17th level lich cleric at a minimum.
In that case ditch the cleric levels mechanically and keep them as fluff.
But I need to know what his current motivations are. Have 17 HD that don't do much are hard to adhoc.
As a lone creature action economy is not on his side so he would have to be a CR 15 at least.
You are going to have to adhoc the CR. Those 12 cleric levels he cant use should probably be treated like NPC class level so Actually I would make him a CR 9 based on his other class levels, and then add on the 12 useless levels. <---I am aware that CR rules dont support this method.
Another idea is to have the 12 cleric levels be flavor. That way he is not hindered mechanically, and say he retrained into __________
3rd option:
If he is legitimately evil he could just take up the worshipping of a new deity and keep his cleric levels.I just caught that he was a 17th level lich cleric at a minimum.
In that case ditch the cleric levels mechanically and keep them as fluff.
But I need to know what his current motivations are. Have 17 HD that don't do much are hard to adhoc.
Hey wraithstrike, thanks for your reply.
I am not really concerned about adhoc experience, I level them up whenever I think is a good time according to the storyline and goals accomplished.
Only looking for ways to make it a challenging opponent, be it through creative use of magical items/wealth, lich abilities, his considerable knowledge, high wisdom or charisma scores, feats, a few class levels he picked up after being stripped of his power, some abilities he retained due to a PrC or anything else you can think off.
I want it to make sense within the pathfinder rules though,a legitimate build for a character that was once able to wield 9th lvl divine magic as a cleric.
I was not talking about adhoc experience. I am saying your idea makes it hard to get a true CR by the book's suggestions. The adhoc CR is for the purpose of a challenging fight. :)
As an example if you have a level 10 fighter, but you give him reduced physical stats due to old age, and a limp reduces his speed you might have to reduce his CR by 1 or 2 to account for his actual effectiveness.
You can make it within the rules, without having him currently still be a cleric. Sometimes it is easier to redo the story slightly to fit the mechanics. <----That is why I was asking what his current goals were since he is a reluctant lich.
Rules-wise if he was tricked, depending on what he had to do he might still be close enough to his original alignment to still gain spells.
Maybe consider that he wasn't cursed with lichdom but instead became a graveknight or some other form of undead that's more martial in flavor? He fell from grace, lost his connection to his deity, didn't atone, got cursed (must have been one heck of a fall!). His magical powers are lost. Maybe he doesn't have faith in any god now, but he was known to be a great crusader. So while rumors all say he's a lich, he actually became something else :)
The lich sacrificed everything he had, his life and that of his faithful followers for the 'greater good' of Sarenrae expecting heavenly rewards.
He is now cursed to an existence as an abomination in the eyes of her faithful, scorned and stripped of his power they tried to hunt him down.
He is looking for revenge on the church and the faithful that tried to destroy him and took everything he held precious.
You know.. basic angry unliving vengeance..
Maybe consider that he wasn't cursed with lichdom but instead became a graveknight or some other form of undead that's more martial in flavor? He fell from grace, lost his connection to his deity, didn't atone, got cursed (must have been one heck of a fall!). His magical powers are lost. Maybe he doesn't have faith in any god now, but he was known to be a great crusader. So while rumors all say he's a lich, he actually became something else :)
I could work with that, maybe have him wield hell fire or negative energy rather than the usual energy choices. Certainly an option. I'll have to check out the graveknight more closely.
Does the lich know the devil is the reason for him being a lich?
If so this can still make him a threat since him hating the devil does not mean he has to remain loyal to the church
With that aside a martial character on its own is not going to stand up to a full party. --->This is why the graveknight idea is a problem.
Maybe the curse took away some of his spell casting power so he no longer has access to 9th level spells OR maybe he changed deities, but the new deity is not allowing him access to 9th level spells again until he proves himself.
So for now he can be a CR 14 lich with two CR 10 cronies = CR 15 encounter, and the lich wont get stomped due to action economy.
The two CR 10 cronies can be graveknights or antipaladins or anything else you think synergizes well with a cleric. :)
As long as the PC somehow know he used to be able to cast 9th level spells the integrity of the story does not have to be sacrificed.
I'll go with the graveknight but will change his base energy type to hellfire to reflect the corruption of purity.
I think cleric 18 (crusader archetype) human (graveknight)
str 20
dex 11
con -
int 13
wis 22
cha 18
Not quite sure on feats and items yet, anyone has good suggestions ?
I roughly estimate it at CR 14 with pc wealth at that level.
I dont know how optimized your party is so will you be allowing him to keep casting feats he can't really use or will all of the feats go towards martial things as if he was orignally a graveknight?
look at the graveknight template. its a lich for folks who dont wanna be casters (though they get some nifty spell-equivalents like a free 5x HD undead bucket(!!!), free extra scaling d6s of energy dmage, permanent deserate effect centered on themselves (that they benefit from) that counts as having an altar, and many other perks)
I dont know how optimized your party is so will you be allowing him to keep casting feats he can't really use or will all of the feats go towards martial things as if he was orignally a graveknight?
I will give him feats as a crusader, he probably waists a feat or two on stuff that is now useless. quicken spell and a channeling feat maybe, likewise he will likely have a headband increasing wisdom and charisma, so he will not be optimized but not too much affected. I might allow him the use of spell completion items normally.
The party is not so much optimized but efficient and the characters are individually well rounded, a bit more treasure than average but it is no magic shop campaign.
dwarf druid
dwarf barbarian
dwarf pal/sorc/DD
elf wiz/fighter/AA/EK
halfling rogue/magus/AT
1/2-elf summoner (not optimized but decent)
human cleric/wiz/MT
They will be lvl 13 before running into the fallen cleric, usually one or two players are not present.
Another reason I suggested graveknight: he led his followers off to their deaths. Now maybe some of them are his minions :)
10 feats
8 that might be useful..
Power attack
Weapon Focus
Toughness
Great Fortitude
Improved Great Fortitude
Dodge Mobility
Heavy Armor Proficiency
Shield Focus
Another reason I suggested graveknight: he led his followers off to their deaths. Now maybe some of them are his minions :)
What would be good undead minions ? spectres maybe, might be some more fitting.
I dont know how optimized your party is so will you be allowing him to keep casting feats he can't really use or will all of the feats go towards martial things as if he was orignally a graveknight?I will give him feats as a crusader, he probably waists a feat or two on stuff that is now useless. quicken spell and a channeling feat maybe, likewise he will likely have a headband increasing wisdom and charisma, so he will not be optimized but not too much affected. I might allow him the use of spell completion items normally.
The party is not so much optimized but efficient and the characters are individually well rounded, a bit more treasure than average but it is no magic shop campaign.
dwarf druid
dwarf barbarian
dwarf pal/sorc/DD
elf wiz/fighter/AA/EK
halfling rogue/magus/AT
1/2-elf summoner (not optimized but decent)
human cleric/wiz/MTThey will be lvl 13 before running into the fallen cleric, usually one or two players are not present.
Wait...
You have a party of 7?
That changes !
That isn't a 12th level party... That is a 12th level army.
A CR15 encounter should be what they warm up on before breakfast...
I dont know how optimized your party is so will you be allowing him to keep casting feats he can't really use or will all of the feats go towards martial things as if he was orignally a graveknight?I will give him feats as a crusader, he probably waists a feat or two on stuff that is now useless. quicken spell and a channeling feat maybe, likewise he will likely have a headband increasing wisdom and charisma, so he will not be optimized but not too much affected. I might allow him the use of spell completion items normally.
The party is not so much optimized but efficient and the characters are individually well rounded, a bit more treasure than average but it is no magic shop campaign.
dwarf druid
dwarf barbarian
dwarf pal/sorc/DD
elf wiz/fighter/AA/EK
halfling rogue/magus/AT
1/2-elf summoner (not optimized but decent)
human cleric/wiz/MTThey will be lvl 13 before running into the fallen cleric, usually one or two players are not present.
Wait...
You have a party of 7?
That changes !
That isn't a 12th level party... That is a 12th level army.
A CR15 encounter should be what they warm up on before breakfast...
They arent usually all present, I prepare for a group of 5, if more are present I add minions to the encounter.
I think my favorite minions will be flaming skeleton champions, probably (dervish dancer and archer archetype) fighters.
I probably will keep 3 advanced spectres that look like white robed burned corpses keeping him company at all times, turning him to a CR 15 encounter.
I welcome more ideas to make things more interesting ;-)
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Okay. Make him a 17th level warrior Graveknight. He would have had plenty of time to embrace his none-cleric martial skills enough to make that kind of transfer.
Now, that places him at CR 17, by himself. (Which is about perfect)
A single combatant needs to have overwhelming superiority to challenge a group of 7...
When they hit Level 13, they will have an APL of approximately 15. Something like 14.75.
A party of 4 would be 13. A party of 6 is 14. They have an extra beyond that.
Wealth is a factor too. Between higher than WBL and an extra member, they're pushing that next APL.
Anyway, CR17 single enemy is perfect for them.
Even better, the Graveknight can control 5 HD of undead per HD it has. That means this guy can control 85 HD worth of undead minions.
Ideally, the minions will fight the PCs before they can manage to get to him, and wear em down a bit. And maybe one or two 5-8 HD minions will tag along with the BBEG in the epic showdown at the end.
They arent usually all present, I prepare for a group of 5, if more are present I add minions to the encounter.
I think my favorite minions will be flaming skeleton champions, probably (dervish dancer and archer archetype) fighters.
I probably will keep 3 advanced spectres that look like white robed burned corpses keeping him company at all times, turning him to a CR 15 encounter.
I welcome more ideas to make things more interesting ;-)
Ah, well... hrm. I guess just leave him as a spell-less cleric 17, and make him a graveknight. That'd be a little less effective than the warrior version, and probably make him a cr 15 or 16 by himself.
Maybe a few fallen (from the Wrath of the Righteous adventure path) as speedbumps. The spectres will add great flavor for sure. You might even add the devil to the mix that coordinated his fall: I'd suggest a contract devil for that role, but I'm sure others will work well too. I'd flip through the Bestiaries until you found a few others that fit the bill!
Don't just build a single boss with super strong spells as an encounter if you can avoid it. He'll either 1 shot everyone or be disabled through one or two spells, eiher option is a boring fight.
If I was to build this fight I'd make the boss an offensive channeler and or divine caster to represent he is/was a cleric. Players won't know (or actually care) that he has unused feats (how the hell can you know what feats someone has until they use them???), if anything unused feats are just a serious nerf to the boss.
The flavour is in additional minions that have followed him into cursed doom. I'd have a bunch of fighters with reach weapons, the body guard and combat reflexes feats who throw themselves into the way to protect their leader.
A bard who sings constant praise during the battle who raises the bonuses for the bad team. He also offers a path to tell the story of the cleric during his living years during the fight.
Antipaladins who smite good non believers with their scimitars and who will attempt to heal the boss if they are seriously hurt.
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Perhaps make him an Inquisitor Lich or Graveknight and say the lesser spell casting capability is more a matter of his strength of will. This give him some magical might, but not full on Cleric casting/channeling and gives him a more martial bent without pushing him into a full martial class.
Maybe a few fallen (from the Wrath of the Righteous adventure path) as speedbumps. The spectres will add great flavor for sure. You might even add the devil to the mix that coordinated his fall: I'd suggest a contract devil for that role, but I'm sure others will work well too. I'd flip through the Bestiaries until you found a few others that fit the bill!
hmm.. I don't have the Wrath of the Righteous adventure path. I was planning to use a slightly refluffed and slightly altered herald of asmodeus as the devil in question but not in this encounter.
I think I will supply him with the services of a cabal devil using her spells to make the encounter more challenging, with the spectres, the fallen priest and a few flaming skeleton champions they will have their a difficult time to focus on one opponent.
I think to place a symbol of pain and revelation in the room where the final encounter will likely take place, created by the cabal devil through crafted scrolls.
Don't just build a single boss with super strong spells as an encounter if you can avoid it. He'll either 1 shot everyone or be disabled through one or two spells, eiher option is a boring fight.
If I was to build this fight I'd make the boss an offensive channeler and or divine caster to represent he is/was a cleric. Players won't know (or actually care) that he has unused feats (how the hell can you know what feats someone has until they use them???), if anything unused feats are just a serious nerf to the boss.
The flavour is in additional minions that have followed him into cursed doom. I'd have a bunch of fighters with reach weapons, the body guard and combat reflexes feats who throw themselves into the way to protect their leader.
A bard who sings constant praise during the battle who raises the bonuses for the bad team. He also offers a path to tell the story of the cleric during his living years during the fight.
Antipaladins who smite good non believers with their scimitars and who will attempt to heal the boss if they are seriously hurt.
True they will not really care about the feats he will not be able to use, but those feats are compensated by the crusader archetype already, but I do have some leeway there if I come up short with the build.
They have met the priest before he fell and 'know' of his death though the exact circumstances of his death have been covered up not to bring ill reputation to the church.
Perhaps make him an Inquisitor Lich or Graveknight and say the lesser spell casting capability is more a matter of his strength of will. This give him some magical might, but not full on Cleric casting/channeling and gives him a more martial bent without pushing him into a full martial class.
Perhaps I should give him access to 1st an 2nd level spells, other spells he can use with some scrolls, if they do not manage to destroy him (not unlikley since he can reform from his armor) he will likely return to his full spellcasting potential by swearing allegiance to the Lord of Hell.
Swap the levels for oracle allowing him to discover the power source of hatred.
Why not give him those clerical spells? I'm sure any of a bunch of evil powers would love to have a truly fallen priest. Spells are a major part of what makes a lich a lich. Otherwise he's just a dessicated punching bag for your fighter.
Agreed.
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I strongly recommend that you make this BBEG a huecuva, not a lich.
Liches, with rare (and IMHO ill-conceived) exceptions, are self-created undead. There's a whole lot of lore around making your phylactery and stuffing your soul into it.
"Huecuvas are the risen corpses of heretical clerics who blasphemed and renounced their deities before meeting death. In unlife, they hate and seek to destroy those pious souls who keep their vows...most huecuvas arise when a god rejects a heretic priest's soul, forcing the slain to rise as horrible undead..."
If a devil tricked him into falling, I'd have the huecuva now receive spells from the hierarchy of hell, with Trickery or one of its subdomains as one of his domains and Devil as the other. Alternately, set him up as a Evangelist with Sacred Summons and variant channeling so that he can flood a combat with conjured devils as a standard action and buff them with his swift and move actions.
A Lich, Dervish-dancing with a Conductive Scimitar. That could get scary.
