5 player campaign need advices for PC "optimization"

[Furako]

I'm about to start a new pathfinder campaign, as GM, with 5 friends of mine. Now, those 5 friends are inexperienced players, so they ask me for some advices, but I'm still busy making the storyline of the campaign...in less words, I need help ^^

contents allowed: Core Rulebook, Advanced Player's Guide

there's the PCs; they'll never change nor race, nor class; any advice regard archetypes, feats, spells, Prestige Classes and Equipment are welcome:

1)Half-orc Barbarian/Rage Prophet:
He want a melee fighter who's able to heal in battle, and like the shaman flavor of the rage prophet. Life oracle (channel) and lame curse seems a good starts, but other ideas are welcome.

2)Gnome Sorcerer, Shadow Bloodline:
He's planning to be a very stealthy sorcerer, basically hide-and-cast a lot, focusing on illusions. need help expecially for the spell list.
Is spell perfection(shadow evocation) worth it in this case?

3)Elf Druid:
She want to be a shape-shifter druid with wolf companion. Probably she'll make a wolf shaman specialyzed in tripping the opponents.

4)Elf Monk:
Basically, whatever works with Elf and Monk is fine here, feel free to suggest wathever you like ^^ (remember, CR and APG only)

5)Human Ranger, Guide/Skirmisher:
This is the only one who's almost done, but any advice will help. Basically a switch-hitter with composite longbow, bastard sword (used both 2 handed and 1 ahnded) and shield (for TWF...what a mess ^^).

I know it's a lot of work, so, thanks for any advices you'll give to me ^^

[XMorsX]

1) Straight Paladin or a Paladin / Oracle multiclass will approach better the concept of a fighter that can heal. Rage Prophet is not suited for inexperienced players.

2) Good enough, can also go seeker for a roguish flavor.

3) Weak concept to start of. Elves does not even have a bonus to wisdom or Str. Can' he start with a Half-Elf at least? Wolf shaman is mediocre after the first lvls, it is best to start as a vanilla druid with a wolf AC. Menhir savant is a nice archetype.

4) Same as above for the race comment.

5) Either he goes TWF, or goes switch hitter with bow and two handed weapon. It is too feat intensive to do it all together that it will just not work. Bastard sword is generally suboptimal and waste of a feat.

[Furako]

Thanks for replying XmorsX

XMorsX wrote:

1) Straight Paladin or a Paladin / Oracle multiclass will approach better the concept of a fighter that can heal. Rage Prophet is not suited for inexperienced players.

2) Good enough, can also go seeker for a roguish flavor.

3) Weak concept to start of. Elves does not even have a bonus to wisdom or Str. Can' he start with a Half-Elf at least? Wolf shaman is mediocre after the first lvls, it is best to start as a vanilla druid with a wolf AC. Menhir savant is a nice archetype.

4) Same as above for the race comment.

5) Either he goes TWF, or goes switch hitter with bow and two handed weapon. It is too feat intensive to do it all together that it will just not work. Bastard sword is generally suboptimal and waste of a feat.

some advices will be take in consideration, but, as i stated before, they'll not change nor race, nor class (the main reason I need help, that's will be easy if they take no PrC or archetypes ^^). and Menhir Savant isn't nor from CR nor from APG, se we can't use it.

I know those classes/races aren't optimal, epecially for beginners; for this reason I'm trying to take out the most possible from every class and at least make them balanced. Since they're beginners it's easy for one or two to shine while the others do nothing, so I was looking at least to balance them.

P.S. the player who want to go Rage Prophet once used a Paladin, now he hate the class, expecially for the alignement restriction ^^

[Magda Luckbender]

It sounds like this is a reasonably well-balanced party. Regardless of how well or poorly the PCs are optimized, they should do fine.

The two elves have picked the least-optimized classes for elves (druid and monk), but they should be able to make it work just fine.

The Ranger would do well to be a switch-hitter.

The Barbarian/Oracle will do fine so long as he/she reads the guides to Barbarian and Rage Prophet.

My biggest concern is for the monk. Unless the monk is well optimized this PC might be overshadowed by the others. The Barbarian will be just as fast and will hit a lot harder. The sorcerer will be just as sneaky. I suggest the monk either be a Zen Archer, a Tetori grapler monk, or a Crane Style devotee.

[Furako]

Thanks, Magda, for your reply

Magda Luckbender wrote:

The Ranger would do well to be a switch-hitter.

I've tried to convince him to go simply switch hitter, but he still want to keep bastard sword and shield. I've managed to make a barely decent ranger with just Two Weapon fighting and a couple of shield feats...then he says he want no Animal Companion. (you know? Somethimes I feels like the players want to make life hard for me ^^)

Magda Luckbender wrote:

The Barbarian/Oracle will do fine so long as he/she reads the guides to Barbarian and Rage Prophet.

Can't find the guide for Rage Prophet, can you post a link?

Magda Luckbender wrote:

I suggest the monk either be a Zen Archer, a Tetori grapler monk, or a Crane Style devotee.

Tetori and Crane style aren't nor from CR nor from APG, but the Zen Archer may work, I'll look over it.

[Morganstern]

For the ranger, try using the TWF combat chain, but add in Improved Shield Bash and Improved Dirty Trick if he has the Int for it. That way he can stun or sicken opponents, and still be offensive. Depending on level, he can also grab Point-Blank and Precise shot.

[Furako]

Thanks for replying Morganstern

I haven't consider the Dirty Trick option, it sounds fun, maybe it can be used with some Hunter's Tricks...I need to look about ^^.

[galahad2112]

Working backwards, the Human ranger needs a TON of feats... PBS, precise, rapid shot, TWF, Imp. shield bash, EWP, etc... Human is a good racial choice for the bonus feat... But by lv.3 he's only got 4 of the 6+ feats that he really needs... By lv.6 he can pull it off, but just barely. The real problem is that to use his ranger combat style feats as effectively as he can, he'll need to use the "weapon and shield" combat style. There's nothing wrong with this, but the real reason that on should take that particular style is for early entry to shield slam and shield master. If he decides to really focus on switch hitting, he can forgo precise shot, and that would free him up to take those very tasty feats.

However, he's also got another problem...how do you use a shield and a bow at the same time? Maybe he can quickdraw a light shield... This will still take a move action, and thus negate the whole TWF aspect for at least 1 full round... but it is a possibility.

[galahad2112]

For your rage prophet friend, the lame curse is fairly ideal, since they'll eventually get immunity to fatigue and the barbarian's speed increase offsets the lame curse's speed penalty...

Of course, another handy combo that does something similar is barbarian/cleric w/Erastil as patron diety. The alignment restriction is not too bad (must be NG) and you get access to 1) channel (with 2 more uses than a life oracle) 2) 2 domains (Animal (feather) for perception bonuses and an Animal Companion, Plant (Growth) for Enlarge Person as both a spell and a swift action 3+wis times per day, and especially Community, for calming touch, standard action that removes fatigue, shaken, and sickened conditions and heals 1d6+level nonlethal) 3) No pesky curse 4) access to ALL of the cleric spells, not just a few and 4) earlier access to higher level spells (if you decide to take more than just a pinch of cleric).

There's really a few ways to play this: a barbarian who dips divine caster, or a caster who dips barbarian, or an even-ish mix, and any of these can be made in cleric or oracle variety, but only with the Oracle's Curse can one become a Rage Prophet (which really is a hard class to use, with the lack of new revelations or rage powers and the entry requirement of the moment of clarity rage power).

[galahad2112]

For the gnome sorcerer, that seems fairly straightforward. reduce person is great for stealthing it up, silent image is golden, and the show stopper color spray is simply amazing. Simply take an evocation spell here, a conjuration there, and dispel magic when it becomes available. This one is hard to mess up too badly. Don't let your player forget that they can swap out spells every few levels.

[galahad2112]

The druid makes things a bit tougher, though. The lack of a wisdom bonus hurts, so their spell DCs will suffer. They may want to focus on summoning to start, as that has no DC.

The thing that bugs me about the "shaman" archetypes is the fact that it delays wild shape. The supposed benefit is that when it becomes available, it functions at lv.+2 for that particular flavor of shaman....however, almost all of the shapes that one would want are available in the first two phases of wild shape. There is no more benefit to an 8th level druid wild shaping into a large creature than there is for a lv. 6 druid. Ok, Ok, MAYBE a couple of special monster abilites (that none of the shapes you actually WANT have) and/or some movement types. Yippee.

The totem transformation is kinda cool, and the totemic summoning is very nice. However, the only time I would consider playing a totem shaman druid is the saurian shaman, and that's only for the vast array of dinosaurs out there.

[galahad2112]

The monk's best friend is the APG's zen archer archetype. Don't worry about having no racial wisdom bonus, get a +2 or so and call it a day. The Dex bonus is where it's at. Str is also a small consideration. Get a point or two of bonus, and it's all gravy. Just keep firing arrows in a hail of death. The only thing to remember here is to NOT take bonus feats that wouldn't do any good (rapid shot, I'm looking at you!) This is a class that is incredibly solid. I just hope that they start with enough gold for a bow!

[Wiggz]

Furako wrote:

I'm about to start a new pathfinder campaign, as GM, with 5 friends of mine. Now, those 5 friends are inexperienced players, so they ask me for some advices, but I'm still busy making the storyline of the campaign...in less words, I need help ^^

contents allowed: Core Rulebook, Advanced Player's Guide

there's the PCs; they'll never change nor race, nor class; any advice regard archetypes, feats, spells, Prestige Classes and Equipment are welcome:

1)Half-orc Barbarian/Rage Prophet:
He want a melee fighter who's able to heal in battle, and like the shaman flavor of the rage prophet. Life oracle (channel) and lame curse seems a good starts, but other ideas are welcome.

2)Gnome Sorcerer, Shadow Bloodline:
He's planning to be a very stealthy sorcerer, basically hide-and-cast a lot, focusing on illusions. need help expecially for the spell list.
Is spell perfection(shadow evocation) worth it in this case?

3)Elf Druid:
She want to be a shape-shifter druid with wolf companion. Probably she'll make a wolf shaman specialyzed in tripping the opponents.

4)Elf Monk:
Basically, whatever works with Elf and Monk is fine here, feel free to suggest wathever you like ^^ (remember, CR and APG only)

5)Human Ranger, Guide/Skirmisher:
This is the only one who's almost done, but any advice will help. Basically a switch-hitter with composite longbow, bastard sword (used both 2 handed and 1 ahnded) and shield (for TWF...what a mess ^^).

I know it's a lot of work, so, thanks for any advices you'll give to me ^^

Ironically, all of these race/class combos look equally non-optimal which in my opinion is just great. Each clearly has an idea of what concept they'll have fun playing, none are in danger of consistently overshadowing the others... personally, I say go with what you're doing and enjoy yourselves. As long as you have a solid GM capable of challenging you in ways appropriate to the party make-up you should do fine.

[Marthkus]

1) He's going to wreck things. Just make sure to grab power attack

2) His power depends on how the GM handles illusions

3) Strong class, bad race. What is the point buy? (if you are rolling stats, God have mercy on your souls) If it's 20 then he could go 16str 8dex, 14con, 12int, 15wis, 8cha before race mods. Favored class bonus goes to health, put all level based attribute increases into Wis.

4) Sorry. This won't work. At all. Especially without access to the agile property. This character should but an 18 into cha, get skill focus(use magic device), and Magical aptitude. Then they can spend the rest of the game using wands. NOTE: This is the same tactic I would use for someone playing a commoner

5) Just go to the switch hitter section Basically he grabs power attack at one and picks the range style. Shield takes to many actions to put on and take off to be of use to a switch hitter.

[Satchmo]

It sounds like there are a lot of people making good suggestions on what can help this party survive. The way I learned to survive a campaign was to build what I wanted against the suggestion of others, then my GM killed me horribly. I then made another character disregarding suggestions others gave me which also died horribly. Finally, I realized that if you want your character to survive a game you have two choices 1. Have a GM that will never kill you or 2. Make intelligent decisions when building my characters.

[ArmouredMonk13]

Might I suggest pointing them to the messageboards to ask for optimization tips for individual characters? It could help for more specialized advice. Still

1.)Rage Prophet is a bit tough for beginners, because they have to understand multiclassing and prestige classing, and rage prophet can be kinda confusing. But still, probably wants Lame curse, metal or battle mystery (my favorite is metal), and then vanilla or invulnerable rager barbarian (whichever he prefers). I'd order stats Str>Con>Cha>Dex>Wis>Int with Con and Charisma as close as possible.

2.)I don't know a ton about illusion magic, but he probably wants a high charisma for spell DCs and bloodline features. I'd recommend him being a Wildblooded sorcerer with the Umbral bloodline and Eldritch Heritage (Shadow Bloodline). Or if you as a GM would allow it, he take Shadow bloodline and Eldritch Heritage line for Umbral, but that isn't exactly RAW (I'd allow it anyday personally). Stats I'd order at Cha>Dex=Con>Wis>Int>Str

3.)Not sure about a shapeshifter build, but the Wolf shaman isn't an optimal choice. Can't advise much for druids other than stats ordered like Str=Wis>Con>Dex>Int>Cha, with a decent Dex so he/she can pick up the feat Fury's Fall which adds Dex to trip CMB if you allow the feat.

4.)This choice will hurt him quite a bit. Completely want to dump Charisma and Intelligence just for points, and order stats as Dex~Wis>Con>Str>Int>Cha, having him take the crane style line of feats and pump his AC as much as possible. Or be a zen archer with a moderate to low dex, a high wisdom and strength, and none of the typical monk worries. Or perhaps he'd prefer a brawler playtest class build, if you have the ACG playtest to help him with, flavored as a monk, because of the better HD, BAB, and armor.

5.)Can't speak much for rangers. Haven't really played many, so can't help much.

[Morganstern]

For the monk try using the Zen Archer variant as others have said, but if that doesn't strike their fancy i'd suggest Dodge, Mobility and build towards Improved Trip or Improved Disarm if many of their opponents are humanoids. Run in, grab weapon/trip them, move away.
If you have a copy of Ultimate Campaign or are willing to cherry pick, Panther Style would work wonders.

[Atarlost]

Furako wrote:

some advices will be take in consideration, but, as i stated before, they'll not change nor race, nor class...

If they refuse to take advise you aren't obligated to help them.

The fact is that multiclassing doesn't work well anymore, some race/class combos don't work, some archetypes are badly written tree murders, nobody has enough feats to do everything, and the basic design philosophy of 3.x is designed to melt special snowflakes.

[Furako]

Thanks everyone for replying, all you advices are much appreciated

@Galahad2112:
for the ranger I take the Archer combat style to get all those bow feats who need a ton of Dex as prerequisite, and then take only TWF and go for the shield feats, Quick Draw should work with both the sword and the shield, so the Switch-hitting strategy should work, even if not optimal.

For the barbarian I just feel lost about the feats, as you said, the rage prophets lost a lot of revelations/rage powers/rage round, and probably I need to take some feats to cover that loss. Unfortunately, he's refusing the cleric multiclassing option. Using the mistery of life could give him a few nice support effect, expecially since rage prophet levels stacks with oracle for revelations like channeling and life link.

Thank's for the advices about sorcerer spells and monk's archetype Zen Acher, probably I'll just go that way.

For the druid, I think the only alternative for her is to go plain druid, no archetypes, and sticking with some base guides (Treantmonks probably)

@Wiggz:
That's the problem, I'm the GM, and I haven't played for ages (from 3.5 basically); now i feel anxious XD.

@Marthkus:
1)check!
2)I was reading about just now
3)probably point buy, I'll take your advice in strong consideration
4)I don't think he like to be the "wand slave" of the party
5)I'll try my best, unfortunately I can't force him to go into plain switch-hitter, hope he's change his mind while leveling

@Satchmo:
Hope I don't have to teach them in the hard way, but if they start making a lot of mistakes, eventually they're gonna die.

@ArmouredMonk13:
1)I'll look a little further into battle mistery, maybe that will help.
2)Eldritch Heritage and Umbral aren't from CR or APG, He's gonna go pure Shadow Bloodline.
3)Fury's Fall isnt' from CR or APG neither.
4)Crane Style isn't nor from CR nor from APG, as said before, he's probably get the Zen Archer archetype.
5)Don't worry, thank you anyway ^^

@Morganstern:
I'll take a look for the trip or disarm, but probably he'll go Zen Archer at that point (He son't seem enthusiastic about grappling, trippling, disarming, etc...)

@Atarlost:
I'm not obligated, but I don't want them to have a bad experience when I'm the GM, so I'll try to do my best in both ways. As you say, I'm aware that multiclassing isn't good anymore (at least for the most of cases) but I want them to play what they want.

phew, that was a lot of text ^^

[DM Under The Bridge]

Furako wrote:

I'm about to start a new pathfinder campaign, as GM, with 5 friends of mine. Now, those 5 friends are inexperienced players, so they ask me for some advices, but I'm still busy making the storyline of the campaign...in less words, I need help ^^

contents allowed: Core Rulebook, Advanced Player's Guide

there's the PCs; they'll never change nor race, nor class; any advice regard archetypes, feats, spells, Prestige Classes and Equipment are welcome:

1)Half-orc Barbarian/Rage Prophet:
He want a melee fighter who's able to heal in battle, and like the shaman flavor of the rage prophet. Life oracle (channel) and lame curse seems a good starts, but other ideas are welcome.

2)Gnome Sorcerer, Shadow Bloodline:
He's planning to be a very stealthy sorcerer, basically hide-and-cast a lot, focusing on illusions. need help expecially for the spell list.
Is spell perfection(shadow evocation) worth it in this case?

3)Elf Druid:
She want to be a shape-shifter druid with wolf companion. Probably she'll make a wolf shaman specialyzed in tripping the opponents.

4)Elf Monk:
Basically, whatever works with Elf and Monk is fine here, feel free to suggest wathever you like ^^ (remember, CR and APG only)

5)Human Ranger, Guide/Skirmisher:
This is the only one who's almost done, but any advice will help. Basically a switch-hitter with composite longbow, bastard sword (used both 2 handed and 1 ahnded) and shield (for TWF...what a mess ^^).

I know it's a lot of work, so, thanks for any advices you'll give to me ^^

Don't bother.

Make the characters you want, give them the capabilities you wish, if you are new, maybe go light on the magic items so accomplishment comes from the characters and rp, not the items (so your dependency on magic items as the answer and cure all won't increase).

There is nothing wrong with starting simple, complexity and optimization can come later.

[Furako]

DM Under the Bridge, you're correct...
I can simply let them play the way they want, but, even if they're all inexperienced, that's don't take away the fact that someone could play better than the others. I think being the weaker in the party is one of the worst experience you can get while playing an RPG like this; and I'm trying to prevent this.

And, on a second point, I'm making the campaign basically from zero, so, knowing what the players would be in the next fewer levels, will help me to not make some obvious mistake (like putting against them monsters against someone or the majority of the partym are useless).

[XMorsX]

The rage prophet can be effective with a progression like this:

1 Oracle of Nature (lame curse) R: Nature’s Whispers, Extra revelation: Bonded Mount
2 Oracle
3 Oracle R: Natural Divination
4 Barbarian Superstitious Mounted Fury
5 Barbarian RP: Moment of Clarity, Extra RP: Ferocious Mount
6 Rage Prophet
7 Rage Prophet
8 Rage Prophet
9 ...

Continue by taking mounted combat feats and the beast totem rage powers. It can be a very potent mounted build but it needs rage management and it is not noob-friendly.

[XMorsX]

As far as the elf monk is about, even zen archer will not work as well, as his main stat is wisdom and not dex. I would suggest a dex melee monk, starting with weapon finesse and taking an agile Amulet of Mighty fists asap. Couple them with the crane style feats, even if they are not in the core books.

[DM Under The Bridge]

If you keep it an even playing field, and they try to stick to some sort of build or concept, it will be ooookay.

You've got a campaign to focus on, try not to take on too much.

[EldonG]

The gnome sorcerer will rock with Spell Perfection: Shadow Evocation.

This one is actually pretty optimal, unless he blows everything else.

[Brad McDowell]

Don't build characters for your friends. It encourages laziness and hand-holding. Have conversations with your friends about their character-building, of course. Hell, print out this thread and show it to them.

Give a man a fish, he's not hungry for a day. Teach a man to fish...

PS. Why do the characters have to be optimized? Will that make up for a boring campaign?

[Marthkus]

Brad McDowell wrote:

PS. Why do the characters have to be optimized? Will that make up for a boring campaign?

Never, but it can cause a player to have a bad time playing his character.

[galahad2112]

@ xMorsx

Really the only thing that wisdom has over dex is ki points....Don't get me wrong, those are great to have, but a dex build should still be very effective.

@ OP

For the ranger, what high-dex-requirement archery feats are you refering to? Once you start talking about precise shot (no dex req), you may as well just go straight archer. I'm not sure when he's talking about going sword and board...???

Barbarian can just take extra rage and extra rage power as feats, so that can be fairly bare-bones.

Vanilla is one of the tastiest flavors available to druids.

At least the Sorc and Monk are fairly easy to build ;)

[Hzardus]

I would suggest basic barbarian unless they will be leveling more barbarian levels later, when PrCing, you don't get high enough in the class to really benefit from their later on abilities. Rage prophet gains lvls in oracle/barb for revelations/curses and ragepowers, not other special class abilities (from what I recall) such as the invulnerable ragers damage reduction. And it has to be an oracle class not a cleric (requirement is revelation for the prc)

I went life oracle for a chaotic paladin feel, rage with falchion not bad. Another good few are battle/metal/wood, using a great club while raging and shelelagh means pain. And remember, some revelations can only be had at higher levels (combat healing I think is a good one, but lvl 11 oracle if I remember correctly)

Monk is definitely and advanced class to understand and use properly, they are in a way a great battlefield controller, but I've seen the zen push out some massive damage.

sometimes the basic class is as powerful as any of the archetypes and usually less confusing. So base druid wouldn't be bad, can make it any way they want and still use the wolf companion. Magic fang is your friend.

[Joex The Pale]

If your ranger doesn't want a pet, recommend the Guide archetype. Of the AC-less ranger archetypes I've looked at, it seems to be the most useful. It's also APG.

[SmiloDan]

I played an elf druid archer in 3.5 with a dog companion, and he was super effective. Very, very versatile. I started out with Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot (Rapid Shooting produce flame sells is FUN!), then took the obligatory Natural Spell (lets you cast while wildshaped), and I went with Empower Spell (Empowered flame strikes are FUN!), Improved Counterspell (It was a caster-heavy campaign, and I got to knockout fireballs and lightning bolts using flame strikes), and Craft Wand (it was one of those "badguys are taking over civilization, so you can't go to Ye Olde Majick Shoppe" campaigns).

Anyways, I could use archery, my pet tanked, I could wildshape to tank and scout and fly, which made me Airwolf once I could blast from the air, I could battlefield control, summon real well (even without Augment Summoning!), maxed ranks in Perception (actually Listen and Spot in 3.5) + super-high Wisdom + 2 racial bonus made me an EXCELLENT "perceiver," and the Intelligence bonus from elf will make you an even better skill monkey.

Alternatively, maybe go "reach cleric" with the druid. Longspear + Combat Reflexes is all you REALLY need, but Power Attack and Pushing Assault will be useful too--also if you plan on wildshaping.

[DM Under The Bridge]

Brad McDowell wrote:

Don't build characters for your friends. It encourages laziness and hand-holding. Have conversations with your friends about their character-building, of course. Hell, print out this thread and show it to them.

Give a man a fish, he's not hungry for a day. Teach a man to fish...

PS. Why do the characters have to be optimized? Will that make up for a boring campaign?

So true!

[Tholomyes]

DM Under The Bridge wrote:

Brad McDowell wrote:

Don't build characters for your friends. It encourages laziness and hand-holding. Have conversations with your friends about their character-building, of course. Hell, print out this thread and show it to them.

Give a man a fish, he's not hungry for a day. Teach a man to fish...

PS. Why do the characters have to be optimized? Will that make up for a boring campaign?

So true!

Eh, I can sort of understand where the OP is coming from; with inexperienced players, perhaps 'optimization' isn't vital, but it's somewhat important that all characters can perform well and not be completely ineffective.

As for character building, though, I'd probably walk them through it. Have them make the choices, but from a much narrowed down list of options. Once they have experience with the way rolling up a character, they'll be more free to branch out from the easy no-fuss options, to stuff like archetypes and more complicated options.

[XMorsX]

galahad2112 wrote:

@ xMorsx

Really the only thing that wisdom has over dex is ki points....Don't get me wrong, those are great to have, but a dex build should still be very effective.

Ki points are absolutely vital for a zen archer. Without them you are pretty much gimped compared to a fighter / ranger archer. Wisdom can also affect your attacks rolls and at higher lvls your stunning fist DC. Of course and a dex monk archer works, but this is because archery is a strong combat style and not for any other reason. You might as well make a ranger archer and be even more effective.

[galahad2112]

@ XMorsX

Right, I'm not saying that wis is unimportant, just that the only thing it has over dex is ki (which is very important, so he should still put points into it). While wis CAN affect your attack rolls, dex already does, and will continue to do so, so no harm, no foul there...As for the Stunning Fist, doesn't the Zen Archer give that up for Perfect Strike?

@ Hzardus

Actually, the requirements for rage prophet are:
1) BAB +5
2) Oracle's Curse class feature
3) Moment of Clarity rage power
4) Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks
5) Ability to cast 1st level divine spells

They also gain a 3/4 caster progression with ANY divine spellcasting class they possess (prior to gaining the PrC), but only that one class. Thus you could have an Oracle/Barbarian/Cleric/Druid go into this PrC (why they would, I don't know, but it is a legal combo), and they could choose to increase their Druid casting OR their Cleric casting OR their Oracle casting...but only 1 casting class gets the increase.

[ArmouredMonk13]

If the monk wants to be a monkish character with the monk class, you could try the Sohei archetype to reduce MAD, but it would have to be an exception to the CRB/APG limit.

[Hzardus]

galahad2112 wrote:

@ XMorsX

Right, I'm not saying that wis is unimportant, just that the only thing it has over dex is ki (which is very important, so he should still put points into it). While wis CAN affect your attack rolls, dex already does, and will continue to do so, so no harm, no foul there...As for the Stunning Fist, doesn't the Zen Archer give that up for Perfect Strike?

@ Hzardus

Actually, the requirements for rage prophet are:
1) BAB +5
2) Oracle's Curse class feature
3) Moment of Clarity rage power
4) Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks
5) Ability to cast 1st level divine spells

They also gain a 3/4 caster progression with ANY divine spellcasting class they possess (prior to gaining the PrC), but only that one class. Thus you could have an Oracle/Barbarian/Cleric/Druid go into this PrC (why they would, I don't know, but it is a legal combo), and they could choose to increase their Druid casting OR their Cleric casting OR their Oracle casting...but only 1 casting class gets the increase.

This^

True, been a minute since I actually looked at it, knew that it dealt with some actual part of the oracle. And unless for flavor, there isn't any reason to go into any of the other ones because as it is stated, the levels of RP stack with curse/revelation/rage power abilities. So it would do more harm than good to multiclass more than necessary.

[Furako]

@everyone:
thx for the replyes, those are really useful.
there's the situation...

the ranger, the druid and the sorcerer are pretty much done, the only two left are the monk and the rage prophet.

I found a guide for the zen archer and it's the next one to be build....even if I'm not totally sure about it, as everyone says, lack of wisdom is bad for a monk.

The only problem is I haven't found nothing about the rage prophet, Magda Luckbender had mentioned something about a guide, anyone know if there's one on internet? couldn't find any.

[Furako]

In a way or in another I was able to do everything, and the campaign are soon to start, thanks everyone for you advices and your efforts ^^