Grapple, Greater Grapple, Rapid Grappler in the first round of a Grapple?


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

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Spinning out of this thread out of this Grapple thread.

Reference: Grapple combat maneuver

If you possess the feats Greater Grapple & Rapid Grappler and you start a round next to your foe, would the chain of events be:

SEQUENCE A
ROUND ONE
1) Standard action Grapple (grapple foe)
2) Move action Greater Grapple (pin foe)
3) Swift action Rapid Grapple (tie up foe)

Or would the chain of events be

SEQUENCE B
ROUND ONE
1) Standard action Grapple (grapple foe)

ROUND TWO
1) Move action Greater Grapple (pin foe)
2) Swift Rapid Grapple (tie up foe)
3) Standard/move action (TBD)

There is disagreement about which sequence is correct because Greater Grapple states:

"Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple."

Some interpret this to mean that you since you do not maintain a grapple until your second round, you cannot use Greater Grapple and Rapid Grapple in the first round of a Grapple.

Others interpret this to mean you can make a second greater grapple check (a third rapid grapple check) in the first round after the initial standard action grapple.

While addressed by James Jacobs here, it is not an official clarification.


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The JJ response got FAQ'd, with a further staff response of "no response required." That seems pretty official. I'd go with JJ on this one.


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No need for a FAQ. Sequence A is the correct answer. The post by James Jacobs was FAQ'd and the developers said: "No reply required" meaning what James said is correct.

James Jacobs wrote:
So if you take a standard action to grapple a foe, and still have a move action in the round because you haven't moved or taken out a potion or opened a door or something like that, you can indeed make an attempt to pin the foe as that move action.


Looking at the James Jacobs post under the FAQed section they wrote "NO response required"

so to me that means the James Jacobs interpretation is the official one right?

Silver Crusade

Bruno 100% agree with Manimal, Ignipotens and Lobolusk, but was hoping for something more substantive.


Manimal wrote:
The JJ response got FAQ'd, with a further staff response of "no response required." That seems pretty official. I'd go with JJ on this one.

"No response required" was previously used to clear a lot of items out of the queue. At best I'd consider this an open question. Personally, the answer is simply "No - nothing allows you to maintain a grapple more than once per turn." That is not to say you cannot make more than one grapple check per turn, but specifically maintaining is done at the start of the turn when you are already grappling a target. Whether you use a move-action or a standard-action, it's just once. Rapid Grappler specifically uses different language to refer to the extra Grapple check you get from that as a swift.

This has been heavily discussed in other threads - I don't propose to debate it here, but felt it necessary to toss in a dissenting note.


Meh I just want an official answer. It is confusing and I have retired my grappler until I get a good answer.


I admit to not understanding this fixation with "an official answer." The "official" answer is always "the Game Master is in control of the game," with an additional injunction that the purpose of the game is to be fun.

Even if Lobolusk received a notarized set of stone tablets signed by SKR himself, he (or his GM) would be completely at liberty to disregard the wording of the tablet.

And I'd much rather SKR spent his time designing new product than trolling the forums looking for questions that he can take to the local stonemason.


Orfamay Quest wrote:

I admit to not understanding this fixation with "an official answer." The "official" answer is always "the Game Master is in control of the game," with an additional injunction that the purpose of the game is to be fun.

Even if Lobolusk received a notarized set of stone tablets signed by SKR himself, he (or his GM) would be completely at liberty to disregard the wording of the tablet.

And I'd much rather SKR spent his time designing new product than trolling the forums looking for questions that he can take to the local stonemason.

agreed, But no need for stone just need the dragon to pop by and say either A or B. the Majority of my Characters tend to be masked monster wrestlers. I tend to be confused my self sometimes on how it works. EDIT: my dm looks for official answers on how it works, and I am not the only one asking for Clarification. I dont feel like it is a waste of SKR's time.

and My DM usually looks to me to arbitrate the minutia of grapple related things because that is all I do.

a seemonster
b. charge at moster
c. punch monster
d. wrestle monster
E. stand upon corpse of monster looking like a white fat Hercules ready to be velvet painted

Silver Crusade

@orfamy There are also a chunk of Pathfinder players who play PFS, Bruno among them, which is run by RAW to minimize table variation.

While most GMs would rule Sequence A is correct, there's enough doubt that others may rule Sequence B is correct. For a fundamental and repeatedly used ruleset, it should be clarified as Sequence B would drastically affect grapple-based builds and their action economy.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber

Can you do sequence A? Wouldn't you need a rope in hand and therefore be at -4 to checks since you don't have both hands free? I know I amused my GM when I he called me on drawing a rope after moving up and grappling the first round, then pinning and tying up the second, but luckily I had the prehensile tail from tiefling and could draw my rope as a swift.


Just a follow-up question in regards to Rapid Grappler, it specifically says that "Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple..."

So does that mean I must succeed with the Move Action Maintain grapple to be allowed to use the Rapid Grappler feat?

Example:

Round 1/
Move action - move into range
Standard action - Initiate grapple, succeed(grappled condition)
Swift action - can't use Rapid Grappler feat

Round 2/
Move action - maintain grapple, fail
Standard action - maintain grapple, succeed(pin condition)
Swift action - can't use Rapid Grappler feat

Looks like by RAW that's how the feat works, but RAI?


Combat

Move Action wrote:

A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Actions in Combat for other move actions.

You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action

Once you get Greater Grapple, your maintains are always move actions, even if you substitute it for your standard.

Rapid Grappler is keyed specifically to maintains, so any round you don't maintain, you can't get the Swift action bonus check.

Round 1 is accurate and both RAW/RAI, Round 2 is inaccurate, you should get the bonus check.

The Exchange

The way I read Grapple, you can't maintain on the first round.

While you still can maintain as a quickened action, you're not maintaining anything on the first round.

The default text says "If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold."

So in the first round, you gain the grappled condition. The second round you maintain it, which means you do it as a move. You can pin a creature as a move, and still have a standard action left.

It seems clear to me that it's Sequence A in the original post.

Though, I'd also put a move in there. Move up to a foe, grapple it. Next round etc...


Dash Lestowe wrote:

So in the first round, you gain the grappled condition. The second round you maintain it, which means you do it as a move. You can pin a creature as a move, and still have a standard action left.

It seems clear to me that it's Sequence A in the original post.

Though, I'd also put a move in there. Move up to a foe, grapple it. Next round etc...

That's actually Sequence B - A has everything done in the first round. (I agree btw).

Again, I don't suggest this be argued out here - there's miles-long threads about it already. FAQ the first post if you think it's worthy of clarification.

The Exchange

Ah yes. I meant Sequence B. FAQ'd, though I don't think it needs to be. Rules seem clear to me upon reading them.

Silver Crusade

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Due to a Dev comment in a different thread, it appears Sequence B is the intended sequence of play.

A player mentioned how a monk grappled, pinned and tied up a BBEG in one round.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Move up establish grapple. Round 2 Pin. Unless there's something i'm missing even a tetori can't move up and pin on the first round?
Mark Seifter (a dev) wrote:
Even if the enemy moved up to the tetori, you can't maintain during the same round you established. The only way I can think of to pull it off is with Snapping Turtle Clutch to establish off turn and then maintain on your own next turn for the pin and tie up.
Bruno Breakbone wrote:

Bruno, a handsome and beautiful tetori, respectfully disagree.

Bruno grapple keyboard and make FAQ about this issue last year. It has not been addressed.

(Although not a rules guy, James Jacobs says multiple grapple checks in one round is intended.)

Mark Seifter wrote:
@FAQ timing--smaller grapple ambiguities will probably wait for a big ol' grapple FAQ blog that covers many edge cases, so while that will take longer, it will also be a nice bigger juicier FAQ to grapple with hugs of joy and friendship for handsome tetori like Bruno.


Taenia wrote:
Can you do sequence A? Wouldn't you need a rope in hand and therefore be at -4 to checks since you don't have both hands free? I know I amused my GM when I he called me on drawing a rope after moving up and grappling the first round, then pinning and tying up the second, but luckily I had the prehensile tail from tiefling and could draw my rope as a swift.

The rules don't say you need to state you have a rope in hand. If you did, would you also suffer a -4 because you don't have 2 hands free? The rules don't say that, either, and if that were the RAI, it represents a gross oversight on the part of the Design Team.


Bruno Breakbone wrote:

Due to a Dev comment in a different thread, it appears Sequence B is the intended sequence of play.

A player mentioned how a monk grappled, pinned and tied up a BBEG in one round.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Move up establish grapple. Round 2 Pin. Unless there's something i'm missing even a tetori can't move up and pin on the first round?
Mark Seifter (a dev) wrote:
Even if the enemy moved up to the tetori, you can't maintain during the same round you established. The only way I can think of to pull it off is with Snapping Turtle Clutch to establish off turn and then maintain on your own next turn for the pin and tie up.
Bruno Breakbone wrote:

Bruno, a handsome and beautiful tetori, respectfully disagree.

Bruno grapple keyboard and make FAQ about this issue last year. It has not been addressed.

(Although not a rules guy, James Jacobs says multiple grapple checks in one round is intended.)

Mark Seifter wrote:
@FAQ timing--smaller grapple ambiguities will probably wait for a big ol' grapple FAQ blog that covers many edge cases, so while that will take longer, it will also be a nice bigger juicier FAQ to grapple with hugs of joy and friendship for handsome tetori like Bruno.

So, Mark Seifter has changed the rules. His ruling overturns the text of the Core Rulebook and 2 feats. A complete rewrite is required, because the rules don't make sense any more.

Another way it can be done is through the Grab Ability. If you have a Tentacle and Feral Combat Training, you can use your tentacle to make an attack of opportunity through Snake Fang and then use the Grab Ability to start a Grapple. You also can get Grab by being a Tetori. Then you can you can make your Grapple checks as normal the next time you get your action, which could be the same round if you lost initiative.

You should also be able to do it with a combination of Hamatula Strike and Flurry of Blows, but now the rules don't make sense any more.


No, Mark Seifter has not changed the rules. His posts are in an unofficial capacity in that thread, that is how he thinks it works, or should work.

Now, I WOULD be worried about a potential FAQ given the PDT's track record with saying "No fun allowed lol" to any martial option that isn't "I full attack".


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Rynjin wrote:

No, Mark Seifter has not changed the rules. His posts are in an unofficial capacity in that thread, that is how he thinks it works, or should work.

Now, I WOULD be worried about a potential FAQ given the PDT's track record with saying "No fun allowed lol" to any martial option that isn't "I full attack".

NO! Not my dirty trick maneuver!!!


My interpretation has always been Sequence B as the correct one and that you only get SequenceA if you gloss over a word or two in the feat description(s).

But lots of folks interpret differently, to be sure.


Taenia wrote:
Can you do sequence A? Wouldn't you need a rope in hand and therefore be at -4 to checks since you don't have both hands free? I know I amused my GM when I he called me on drawing a rope after moving up and grappling the first round, then pinning and tying up the second, but luckily I had the prehensile tail from tiefling and could draw my rope as a swift.

Can you have a rope over ur shoulder (like over the shoulder and beneath the armpit) while grappling someone with two hands free?


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I have returned form the dead to take over the worl- oh, holy craaaaaap! *its head rolls off the side of the screen*

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

*still waiting patiently for Grapple FAQ/Blog*


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Nefreet wrote:
*still waiting patiently for Grapple FAQ/Blog*

"Patiently" may be an understatement after nearly 4 years..


Atalius wrote:
Taenia wrote:
Can you do sequence A? Wouldn't you need a rope in hand and therefore be at -4 to checks since you don't have both hands free? I know I amused my GM when I he called me on drawing a rope after moving up and grappling the first round, then pinning and tying up the second, but luckily I had the prehensile tail from tiefling and could draw my rope as a swift.
Can you have a rope over ur shoulder (like over the shoulder and beneath the armpit) while grappling someone with two hands free?

The Grappling rules make no mention of having to have a rope in your hands and taking a -4 for not having hands free. But they do say that if you attempt to Tie someone Up, you take a -10 on your check. It seems to me that that -4 for not having 2 hands free (rope in hand) must be subsumed in that -10 to Tie someone Up: RAW and RAI.


I have read if you do not have two hands free you take a -4 simply to initiate grapple and successive rounds :S


"Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll."

My GM doesn't enforce this so I don't really care :) but it seems RAW one would take the penalty. I always use to play as two hands weren't needed only one and no -4 penalty. However I realized all that time I may have been playing it wrong and the -4 penalty should have been enforced.


-10 is for tie up without pinning first. If they are pinned you don't take that penalty.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Bruno Breakbone wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Move up establish grapple. Round 2 Pin. Unless there's something i'm missing even a tetori can't move up and pin on the first round?
Mark Seifter (a dev) wrote:
you can't maintain during the same round you established. The only way I can think of to pull it off is with Snapping Turtle Clutch to establish off turn and then maintain on your own next turn for the pin and tie up.
Bruno Breakbone wrote:

Bruno, a handsome and beautiful tetori, respectfully disagree.

Bruno grapple keyboard and make FAQ about this issue last year. It has not been addressed.

(Although not a rules guy, James Jacobs says multiple grapple checks in one round is intended.)

Mark Seifter wrote:
@FAQ timing--smaller grapple ambiguities will probably wait for a big ol' grapple FAQ blog that covers many edge cases.

I was unaware of this dialogue. It's how I've been running Grapple anyways, but it's nice to have validation.

FAQ'd


toastedamphibian wrote:
-10 is for tie up without pinning first. If they are pinned you don't take that penalty.

This is something I know a lot about. Normally, you can't Tie Up someone without first having them Pinned, and you do take the -10 Penalty.

Core Grappling, Tie Up wrote:
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up.

There is even a special class ability that lets you get around just this thing.

Cavalier, Order of the Penitent wrote:

Expert Captor (Ex)

At 2nd level, as long as he has rope, the cavalier can tie up a grappled opponent, even if the opponent is not pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, and he does not take the usual –10 penalty on his combat maneuver check to do so.


Seems you are correct, the "Kidnapper" rogue archetype backs up your reading as well.

Shadow Lodge

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(PLEASE DON'T ARGUE ANY RULES IN THIS THREAD--THIS IS SIMPLY A COMPILATION OF QUESTIONS)

Among the many grapple clarifications needed:

-How does an outside force that moves one of the combatants affect the grapple? (one of the most commonly asked rules questions)

-When do armor spikes apply their extra damage?

-How is the Dan Bong supposed to work?

-If you have Weapon Focus (w/ Grapple Weapon) and WF: Grapple, do the bonuses stack as they are separate untyped bonuses?

-If the controlling grappler is blinking, do they automatically lose control of the grapple the next round and/or when they blink?

-Does a pinned creature threaten its grappler (for the purposes of gaining and/or granting bonuses to/from allies, such as for flanking) even though the only melee attack the pinned creature is capable of is a maneuver?

-Is it intentional that the Strangler Brawler must use their first 2 feats to get IUS and Improved Grapple so they can actually do what they are designed to do starting at L2?

-GENERAL COMBAT MANEUVER QUESTION: If a creature has a melee attack + (trip/grab/etc) but the attack fails to pierce your DR, does the additional maneuver trigger? You indicated that DR would prevent the maneuver in this playtest thread but just double checking since that was 3 years ago and possibly an off-the-cuff response.

-Clarification: Is retrieving rope assumed part of the maintain check to Tie Up or is a separate action needed to retrieve it?

-Clarification: Does a Ghost Touch Amulet of Mighty Fists allow you to grapple an incorporeal foe?

-Clarification: Can you TWF when you have the grappled condition? PRO: each weapon is 1H or Light. CON: Grapple prohibits any action that requires 2 hands. Similarly, can a grapple monster make a full round attack of all its natural attacks?

-What are the Dev design philosophies on combat maneuvers in general and grappling in specific? What is the place of CMs in the Pathfinder system?


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Sammy T, can you add this to the list: If you have an enemy grappled and try to cast a spell (move maintain w/ greater grapple), do you roll concentration, who's CMB do you use for the concentration check?

What are the free rake attacks in a grapple? Are they free actions after maintaining? are they two extra damage rolls with the Damage grapple option?


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You can run this thread up a flag pole and I'll salute it


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If you grapple with the -20 to not be grappled yourself how does that work on future rounds? Seems like it's pointless if you still need your full standard to maintain as being free to do AoO's against other's isn't that big of a deal.

if you start your round grappling, can you do rake attacks and then let go and do a full turn still?


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Sammy T wrote:
PLEASE DON'T ARGUE ANY RULES IN THIS THREAD

???

What is this? I do not understand these words. I mean, I understand them individually, but this grouping does not make any sense in the order given.


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I think it means:

"Please don't argue about any of these rules questions in this thread - they have their own threads."

Shadow Lodge

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toastedamphibian wrote:
Sammy T wrote:
PLEASE DON'T ARGUE ANY RULES IN THIS THREAD

???

What is this? I do not understand these words. I mean, I understand them individually, but this grouping does not make any sense in the order given.

The full line was: PLEASE DON'T ARGUE ANY RULES IN THIS THREAD--THIS IS SIMPLY A COMPILATION OF QUESTIONS

As Matthew Downie clarified, most these have their own threads (with links provided where I could find 'em offhand). If the DEV team looks at this thread, I just wanted to provide a list of other grappling questions for them to address.


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Swing and a miss...

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Yeah that's not how FAQ requests, or these Forums for that matter, work at all.

I will continue to wait patiently for said Grapple Blog.

Lantern Lodge

Any update on that FAQ?


Secane wrote:
Any update on that FAQ?

Greetings fellow necromancer. Not that I am aware of, perhaps someone else knows conclusively? I, like Nefreet, am waiting patiently. I miss the man, the myth, the legend, Bruno Breakbone.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

*twiddles thumbs clawed fingers*


So... Did anyone try grappling in the Playtest?


Why grapple what you can simply dodge?

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