"Time of the Doctor" Christmas Special


Television

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Thoughts?

Generally speaking, I was disappointed. Like much of the last season, any given five minutes is nice work, but the whole plot didn't hold together for me at all.

And the naked jokes fell entirely flat for me. This is how the show introduces Clara's family? (Her father remarried, it seems ... )

The TARDIS doesn't seem to care very much for Clara. Why did it extend its atmospheric bubble around her to survive outside through the Time Vortex? You know, the thing that was supposed to be impossible for anybody other than Captain Jack?

Howdid Tasha Lem's corpse fight off the dalek conversion? For that matter, how did Tasha Lem's dalek-converted corpse learn to fly the TARDIS, and why did it go back to fetch Clara? (How did it even know where / when Clara was?)

What purpose does the story have, bringing in the Weeping Angels? For a scene. Same with the Silence. Ditto the Silurians. (All of whom have really suffered from Villain Decay.)

So the reason the Doctor stays on the planet is that the populace of Christmas, Trenzalore, would be killed if he left? Why not take them with him? And hey, aren't the Time Lords supposed to be in stasis?

Silver Crusade

Great great acting, arguably Smith's best. Spotty dialog. Not impressed with the plot. Wonderful continuity porn. Nice cameo. Reasonable special effects. Capaldi didn't sell his 2 lines (it's early). Too many monsters, it's hard to be afraid of everybody. Christmas holiday theme felt tacked on.


Wasnt big fan of the naked jokes and what was the joke about the wig?.

I hate human/dalek hybrids (but i'm old school on dalek slaves/servants).

At times felt like i was in the dark on the cyberman head and Tash Lem (would love to know more about the cyberman and was Tasha ageless?).

I did love Clars reaction to the transformation and cant wait for more Who in 2014

I had no problem with the Sontarans (wouldnt mind the old school dark uniforms though but i didnt see silurians

So confused on how many regenerations the Dr has left?Will Clara stay as the old/new companion or will the new version get his new companion as well. Mini webisodes had Strax field reports so i hope we see that crew again and we get a darker tone to the series

Confused on the crack in the universe as well. Didnt a previous episode deal with escaped snakelike prisoner and wasnt it sealed? The master brought back the timelords so i'm confused on where they are now.

Sovereign Court

Whole thing was really..... meh. Not even close to the send off that Tennant had. I didnt really feel "Day of the doctor" either. I just dont think Moffat is doing well as the showrunner. Hopefully a new doctor is just what they need to get this thing back on track.

Silver Crusade

It was decent, but i agree that Moffat needs to go. A lot of his stories are just huge messes. I hope Capaldi will make his mark in the upcoming stories. Already there have been reportss of Capaldi & Moffat bumping heads. So, i have hope Capaldi will not let Moffat wreck the new Doctor.


It was...okay. I think the regeneration scene wasn't as powerful as the last two regenerations. I think the Capaldi could make a cool doctor but will need to really evaluate him with a whole episode

I did like that they tried to tie everything together in this episode (crack in time, clerics, The Silence, why the doctor had to die, etc).

Getting a bit tired of Moffat's out of nowhere plot contrivances. Really? extra regeneration energy can take out a Dalek mothership?


Oh by the way the wig thing was because of the 11th doctor having to shave his head for another part. From what I understand, Karen Gillian also wore a wig...as she also had to shave her head for Guardians of the Galaxy. So wigs galore!


As someone who's been ambivalent about Moffat's run on the show, I thought it was very satisfying, and a good send-off for Matt Smith.

wicked cool wrote:
So confused on how many regenerations the Dr has left?

There was mention (by Eleven, I think), of him getting a whole new cycle of regenerations. So that implies twelve more. (The timelords gave the Master more regenerations at some point, and the Master has stolen some as well, so it doesn't seem to be a strictly biological limit.)

wicked cool wrote:
Didnt a previous episode deal with escaped snakelike prisoner and wasnt it sealed?

I think the prisoner's escape was incidental to the cause of the crack itself - the crack enabled it to escape its prison, but the prisoner didn't cause the crack. I don't think the crack was actually sealed in that episode, but I could be wrong. (If it was, it may have only been a single instance of the crack, which was spread throughout space and time.)

Grand Lodge

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Pan wrote:
I just dont think Moffat is doing well as the showrunner.

The show has reached heights of popularity it has never had before, not even with Tennant and Baker. It's been on the cover of TV Guide, and it was even referenced in this Anchorman 2 outtake.

Clear evidence of failure on Moffat's part.


Sarcasm?

Silver Crusade

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MMCJawa wrote:
From what I understand, Karen Gillian also wore a wig...as she also had to shave her head for Guardians of the Galaxy.

!

Karen Gillian is playing Moondragon?!

YES

Sovereign Court

LazarX wrote:
Pan wrote:
I just dont think Moffat is doing well as the showrunner.

The show has reached heights of popularity it has never had before, not even with Tennant and Baker. It's been on the cover of TV Guide, and it was even referenced in an Anchorman 2 outtake.

Clear evidence of failure on Moffat's part.

Let me clear up my comment then. I meant hes not that interesting for me personally. I wasnt speaking for everyone.

Liberty's Edge

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Mikaze wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
From what I understand, Karen Gillian also wore a wig...as she also had to shave her head for Guardians of the Galaxy.

!

Karen Gillian is playing Moondragon?!

YES

Unfortunately she's playing Nebula.

Silver Crusade

Paul Watson wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
From what I understand, Karen Gillian also wore a wig...as she also had to shave her head for Guardians of the Galaxy.

!

Karen Gillian is playing Moondragon?!

YES

Unfortunately she's playing Nebula.

D:

;_;

Grand Lodge

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wicked cool wrote:


So confused on how many regenerations the Dr has left?

Spoiler:

In the context of Day of the Doctor, Eleven reveals to Clara that he's used up all his regenerations that his last incarnation used up two in a case of vanity. He apparently has been granted a new cycle of regenerations by some agency, how many regenerations in this new cycle are completely unknown.


The crack was sealed (in Big Bang 2, I believe), but left a weak point, and the Gallifreyans levered it back open.


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Personally, I felt that Tennant's farewell was a bit overdone (a touch maudlin and indulgent).


I'm getting tired of Doctor Who.

Nothing really means anything anymore.


I loved Doctor Who since I saw the Tom Baker episodes and then others. I have loved all the new ones and I am sad to see Matt Smith go. I liked the whole Christmas Special. It looks like I am one of the few that did!
There was the thread about Capaldi where people were hoping he would be the mean old man he played in some British TV show and what do you know, the man can act! In the short time he was on in this show, I could see he was going to be a great addition to the lineup. I hope Clara hangs out like Rose did.


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Well, that was an incoherent mess. I know Smith wasn't supposed to leave this soon and Moffat thought he had another year to resolve his storylines and was caught on the hop a bit, but even so he should have been able to come up with something better than this. Hell, he could have even made the 50th Anniversary and the Christmas Special into more of a two-parter and really gone to town on it.

As is traditional with Moffat, the emotional beats almost worked (until they were let down by the gaping plot holes) and there was no shortage of great ideas (a cynical religion which shifts believes in step with its followers is a fascinating concept), but there was also some very weird sexism ("Now THAT's what I call a woman!" - huh?) and very little made any sense. There only appears to be a couple of hundred people in the village at best: why not just evacuate them via the TARDIS and fly off to another space and time? Also, jamming Amy into the finale seemed rather disrespectful to Clara, who just got to stand there like a lemon.

In fact, after Day of the Doctor's success - better plotting and characterisation, Clara finally getting some excellent moments based on character development rather than being a Macguffin - Time of the Doctor was a fairly major letdown.

Still, Capaldi looks like he'll be brilliant. They just really need to replace Moffat as well and bring in some new blood.

LazarX wrote:

The show has reached heights of popularity it has never had before, not even with Tennant and Baker. It's been on the cover of TV Guide, and it was even referenced in this Anchorman 2 outtake.

Clear evidence of failure on Moffat's part.

The show's ratings are down on the Eccleston/Tennant Era. Smith's era has had to rely on the Christmas specials and the 50th anniversary to raise the average ratings to what Eccleston and Tennant got on a much more regular basis. Smith's era has also had some of the weakest ratings since the show's return (dipping close to the sub-5 million mark a few times).

The show's international profile has risen, yes, and it's better-known in the USA than it has been at any time previously. But that doesn't make much odds to the BBC: the way the BBC is funded means that the show being a reasonable international hit may benefit the BBC overall but not the show itself. It's fame and success in the United States is also a little bit overstated: it's gotten BBC America's biggest-ever ratings, but that's still only 2.5 million people or so.

Critically, the show has had a much more mixed reception since Moffat took over than at any time since its return. There's still one or two stand-out episodes per season, but also much more consistent criticism of the show. The BBC themselves have also slashed the budget of the show over Moffat's objections and refused him permission to develop spin-off projects. It's also clear that the BBC 'trusts' him with the brand far less than they did Russell T. Davies. If it wasn't for the show's growing international success and the simultaneous success of Moffat's SHERLOCK, I think it's questionable how long he could remain in the role. Unfortunately now, he's probably there as long as he wants.


I'm not surprised that the BBC is leery of spinoff shows; neither of Russell's are with us still...

Scarab Sages

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QXL99 wrote:
I'm not surprised that the BBC is leery of spinoff shows; neither of Russell's are with us still...

When you kill off 2 of your characters at the end of the second season, then make each of the next two seasons into one long story arc, people don't like it that much. Unless that was the premise of the show in the first place, like 24.

Doctor Who suffered the same problem with "Trial of a Time Lord", though "Key to Time" fared a little better.

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As snarky as this review is, it sums up many of my feelings.

EDIT: Also potentially useful.


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Quote:
I'm not surprised that the BBC is leery of spinoff shows; neither of Russell's are with us still...

For totally unrelated reasons. THE SARAH JANE ADVENTURES stopped because the lead actress died, which is kind of difficult to overcome. TORCHWOOD would have continued on Starz, but Russell T. Davies's partner became extremely seriously ill and he returned to the UK to stand by him. If he recovers, apparently there are options on the table for TORCHWOOD to continue in some fashion.

Quote:
When you kill off 2 of your characters at the end of the second season, then make each of the next two seasons into one long story arc, people don't like it that much

One of those two seasons - CHILDREN OF EARTH - is by far the most popular and critically-acclaimed season of TORCHWOOD to date, so I'm not too sure about that theory.


Chris Mortika wrote:

As snarky as this review is, it sums up many of my feelings.

EDIT: Also potentially useful.

Likewise.

As I said before:

Nothing really means anything before.


Chris Mortika wrote:
As snarky as this review is, it sums up many of my feelings.

...if those feelings are 'I'm so much of an internet troll, I need my own blog to do it"!

OK, I agree that Clara's family was a pointless, ugly feature of the show and that it would be a lot better if Clara was just with the Doctor at the start of the show.

But on the whole I enjoyed the show. I liked Matt's performance (for a change), Jenna is good even when she's been given little to do, and the possible return of the Time Lords is a plausible reason for the greater races to turn up and try and to win Time War II before it's even started. And the lead up to the regeneration was a good piece, discarding the bow-tie was a nice touch.

Cheers
Mark


Werthead wrote:
One of those two seasons - CHILDREN OF EARTH - is by far the most popular and critically-acclaimed season of TORCHWOOD to date, so I'm not too sure about that theory.

Funnily enough I found the darker, more adult Children of Earth less enjoyable. It may have been better sci-fi but it wasn't what Torchwood had established itself as. I enjoyed the banter and whimsey of the previous two series and this gloomy story didn't really fit universe that the Doctor travels in. Miracle Day likewise - although more humour was put in. RTD's habit of killing off wee liked characters didn't help.

Cheers
Mark

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QXL99 wrote:
Personally, I felt that Tennant's farewell was a bit overdone (a touch maudlin and indulgent).

I strongly disagree.

It was way WAY more than "a bit" overdone.

It was handled with all the grace and subtlety of the rest of Tennant's (and RTD's) run.

That is to say...none whatsoever.

Shadow Lodge

Werthead wrote:
For totally unrelated reasons. THE SARAH JANE ADVENTURES stopped because the lead actress died, which is kind of difficult to overcome. TORCHWOOD would have continued on Starz, but Russell T. Davies's partner became extremely seriously ill and he returned to the UK to stand by him.

My theory on his illness: he watched Miracle Day. It certainly left me feeling sick.


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Kthulhu wrote:
Werthead wrote:
For totally unrelated reasons. THE SARAH JANE ADVENTURES stopped because the lead actress died, which is kind of difficult to overcome. TORCHWOOD would have continued on Starz, but Russell T. Davies's partner became extremely seriously ill and he returned to the UK to stand by him.
My theory on his illness: he watched Miracle Day. It certainly left me feeling sick.

A simple Google search revealed Andrew Smith, Davies' partner, successful writer, and former policeman & Special Branch employee, was diagnosed with brain cancer. But yay! You got to be snarky... good for you!


Eh, I enjoyed it all right.

Though the amazing reappearing Pond was a huge WTF moment.

Grand Lodge

I thoroughly enjoyed it and thought it was a good send off for Smith.


Not a big fan of it but hopefully with a new doctor and all the plot threads from Smith's tenure tied up (well other than trying to find Gallifrey) we can start fresh. I liked Smith but looking forward to Capaldi and a new start for the show.

Silver Crusade

Personally, I loved Old!Eleven checking out in total carnival showman mode.

Also hope they explore just who and what Tasha Lem is in the future, because damn if every line she had couldn't have been written for River Song.


Capaldi Who should meet up with Timelord Batman. (click image to embiggen)


I liked it well enough, but I do think Day of the Doctor would have been a better send off. I really disliked the job done on the age make-up, but I'm a bit of an effects make-up snob.

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The crack in the wall is central to the storyline. It's the McGuffin that everybody wants or fears. It drives the motivations of the Doctor, Clara, and the miserable citizens of Christmas. The entities on the other side take an active roll in solving the plot drama. I don't know what, exactly, is behind that crack, except that I know it's absolutely not the Time Lords of Gallifrey.

It's not the maniac Time Lords of David Tennant's doctor, the ones led by Timothy Dalton. They would never deign to seek the Doctor's permission to cross over. (And let's be clear: by the end, after Clara's comment, whoever is behind that crack knows full and well that this is the breech with the Doctor. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't feel regenerative energy through the crack. They still won't come unless he speaks his name.) And the Doctor would never care what happens to them. Seal up the crack, send Daleks through it, what you please. Those Time Lords were planning on burning the univese and ascending to beings of pure thought. The idea of having both a cadre of Dalek ships and the Doctor himself present when they emerge would be icing on their nihilistic cake.

And it's not the gentle, maypole-dancing Gallifreyans of Matt Smith's doctor, the ones with a military council room. For one thing, those guys are not just in another dimension, but frozen in time there. For another, they wouldn't know the Doctor's name if it bit them on the ear. And I don't think they're too particular. They want to make sure they're coming back in the same universe they left, yes? Why? Why would they want to come back into a universe with a whole bunch of daleks?

Besides, what kind of Time Lords would send out a message that neither the Doctor nor the TARDIS telepathic translation circuits could translate?


Well at least it solved once and for all the arguments about how many regenerations he had available..

I would love a return to the days when Dr Who told good stories and didn't spend half its time vanishing up its own bum.

At least we can hope that with an older version he won't go cow eyed over his assistant.

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Chris Mortika wrote:

Thoughts?

Generally speaking, I was disappointed. Like much of the last season, any given five minutes is nice work, but the whole plot didn't hold together for me at all.

On the surface it was a nice romp and these days I feel inclined to stick with Doctor Who "on the surface" -- it makes it much easier to watch.

That said, I think it started poorly but ended pretty well.

Quote:


And the naked jokes fell entirely flat for me. This is how the show introduces Clara's family? (Her father remarried, it seems ... )

I presumed the Sylvia Noble clone was an aunt/her father's sister.

Quote:


The TARDIS doesn't seem to care very much for Clara. Why did it extend its atmospheric bubble around her to survive outside through the Time Vortex? You know, the thing that was supposed to be impossible for anybody other than Captain Jack?

I thought the TARDIS stopped reacting weirdly to Clara after the end of the 7th Season, and her impossibleness was explained/resolved.

Quote:


Howdid Tasha Lem's corpse fight off the dalek conversion? For that matter, how did Tasha Lem's dalek-converted corpse learn to fly the TARDIS, and why did it go back to fetch Clara? (How did it even know where / when Clara was?)

For the first question, they established that she was mentally very resilient -- she can see through holograms/illusions, and so on. Or to put it another way, she's a high level cleric with a high Wisdom and big Will save.

For the second, it's clear she spent some time with a previous Doctor because she notes Eleven's "new body" -- if it was Ten she knew, Ten had a habit of showing people how to fly the TARDIS, such as the scene where he's showing Donna how to fly it.

For another theory, see my response to Mikaze below.

Quote:


What purpose does the story have, bringing in the Weeping Angels? For a scene. Same with the Silence. Ditto the Silurians. (All of whom have really suffered from Villain Decay.)

For the Weeping Angels and various other creatures, they made it clear just about every major advanced race in the universe had shown up around the planet in response to the message and in hopes of capturing the Doctor. The Angels in particular because Moffat is a little too in love with his own creation. But they explain why lots of enemies of the Doctor are there and it more or less makes sense (as much sense as most stories have of late).

For the Silence, the purpose of their presence was to explain their original existence/purpose -- they serve the Papal Mainframe and were designed to be the perfect confessors (or inquisitors).

Quote:


So the reason the Doctor stays on the planet is that the populace of Christmas, Trenzalore, would be killed if he left? Why not take them with him?

Fair point. Maybe he just didn't want to take him from their home. Maybe he was afraid they'd get the swimming pool all dirty. Maybe they were infected by the timeywimeyness of the crack and couldn't safely time travel. But yeah, they kind of should have explained that better.

Quote:

And hey, aren't the Time Lords supposed to be in stasis?

The stasis is deteriorating as it is finding slowly a way back into the main universe, perhaps.

Rynjin wrote:

Eh, I enjoyed it all right.

Though the amazing reappearing Pond was a huge WTF moment.

The Doctor has sometimes been shown as hallucinating the companions he traveled with as he regenerates. This time they just did it more melodramatically, in the style of the current series. And left out Rory for some reason, his absence which I find more infuriating than Amy's presence. Of course it could have just been that Arthur Darvill wasn't available.

Mikaze wrote:

Personally, I loved Old!Eleven checking out in total carnival showman mode.

Also hope they explore just who and what Tasha Lem is in the future, because damn if every line she had couldn't have been written for River Song.

My sister theorized that she was another incarnation of River, and that when he says "fight the psychopath inside you" it has a double meaning (telling her to both fight the Dalek programming and to fight the old programming within her to try to kill him, especially as he also describes River as the "psychopath" he married). I agree at least she was a very River-like character.

I'd also note that "Lem" is backwards for "Mel" (Melody). (Less convincing, but amusing, "Mother Superious Tasha Lem" spells "A Posthumous Earthrise Mel", and yes I do enjoy wordsmith.org)

Online someone pointed out that she is "Mother" of the "Mainframe" -- and River's actual apparent end is playing mother, having been downloaded into the Library's mainframe. It's possible that her consciousness was put into a new body (one perhaps that is synthetic which is why Tasha doesn't really age). There are some timey wimey issues that makes this not quite work, however.

There are also many other reasons why this theory doesn't work, but it's still kind of an interesting idea. Me, I feel rather done with River Song, but even so I find the idea fascinating.

Silver Crusade

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DeathQuaker wrote:
I thought the TARDIS stopped reacting weirdly to Clara after the end of the 7th Season, and her impossibleness was explained/resolved.

Yeah, it had definitely warned up to Clara by Day Of The Doctor at the very latest, judging by the beginning of that episode. Maybe even as early as the end of Hide, maybe? Or Journey To The Center Of The TARDIS?

DeathQuaker wrote:
Online someone pointed out that she is "Mother" of the "Mainframe" -- and River's actual apparent end is playing mother, having been downloaded into the Library's mainframe. It's possible that her consciousness was put into a new body (one perhaps that is synthetic which is why Tasha doesn't really age). There are some timey wimey issues that makes this not quite work, however.

Oh. Oh I LIKE this notion.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
QXL99 wrote:
I'm not surprised that the BBC is leery of spinoff shows; neither of Russell's are with us still...

The only reason the Sarah Jane Smith show isn't still running, is the death of the actress herself.


DeathQuaker wrote:
Maybe he just didn't want to take him from their home.

That was my take on it. And by the time that's an option (once the Tardis returns, after stranding the Doctor there for 300 years), he's clearly adopted it as his own home, which he chooses to defend rather than flee from - a sort of reversal in his last apparent incarnation of his fleeing from home in his first incarnation.

DeathQuaker wrote:
I'd also note that "Lem" is backwards for "Mel" (Melody). (Less convincing, but amusing, "Mother Superious Tasha Lem" spells "A Posthumous Earthrise Mel", and yes I do enjoy wordsmith.org)

In an interview, Orla Brady (the actress) theorized that it was a nod to Stanislaw Lem. Of course, it could be both.

But like you, I feel done with River at this point, and hope that Tasha Lem is her own character. (I'd also like to see her return - that's as much due to Orla Brady's performance as anything.)

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