So, I've got a question for you all. I've rolled up a gunslinger recently and was wondering if there are any especially good classes to dip with. My build at level three:
Tiefling gunslinger
str: 14
Dex: 19
Con: 11
Int: 14
Wis: 15
Cha: 17
AC: 18 (+3 armor, +4 dex, +1 dodge)
Feats: Rapid Reload, Point-blank shot, want rapid shot, or deadly aim next.
I think I want 2 fighter lvls after lvl 5 so I'm not hurting for feats, but again, I'm not sure if that would be best.
Flavor ideas would also be invited. I'm playing her as an aspiring leader (int was 10 at char gen, I raised it at a library in Katapesh) so, if something more thematic comes to mind, I'd love to hear it.
Monk for sure.
you get a lot of stuff in level 1 wisdom to ac, unarmed strike to defend yourself with your free hand and a feat from the monk list.Edit: make the library part of a monastery and you're fine
Ooh, Monk would be nice. Good boost in saves too.
Any other ideas?
Monk for sure.
you get a lot of stuff in level 1 wisdom to ac, unarmed strike to defend yourself with your free hand and a feat from the monk list.Edit: make the library part of a monastery and you're fine
Ooh, Monk would be nice. Good boost in saves too.
Any other ideas?
2 levels of Wild Rager Barbarian. Wild Fighting gives you some Pseudoflurry with your gun.
Paladin for Charisma synergy on saves, some little Smite and cute selfheals.
Monk for sure.
you get a lot of stuff in level 1 wisdom to ac, unarmed strike to defend yourself with your free hand and a feat from the monk list.Edit: make the library part of a monastery and you're fine
Ooh, Monk would be nice. Good boost in saves too.
Any other ideas?
2 levels of Wild Rager Barbarian. Wild Fighting gives you some Pseudoflurry with your gun.
Paladin for Charisma synergy on saves, some little Smite and cute selfheals.
Unfortunately, The Tiefling in question is LE, so no Pally. Paladin is an interesting idea though (Holy gun maybe?)
For Gunslinger Dips:
Paladin (Holy Gun) is an awesome two-level dip if you are Lawful Good, especially if you go Mysterious Stranger for Charisma stacking. You get Charisma to saves, Extra Grit as a bonus feat, and the Smiting Shot Deed, which is much more flexible than Smite Evil (abet less powerful). I personally like to go three levels into Fighter (Trench Fighter) as well when I do this build, as Trench Fighter will give you back Dex to damage with Firearms, plus an additional two bonus feats. Can't go wrong there.
Fighter in general makes for an excellent dip, as you net two quick feats out of the deal. That said, late-game gunslingers have an abundance of feats that this dip doesn't help solve in the long run, but grabbing the key feats faster can only be a good thing.
Monk is okay, especially if you can find a way to trade out Flurry of Blows. You can pick up Dodge as one of your Monk bonus feats, which is a prerequisite for several Grit feats if that's your cup of tea.
Barbarian isn't worth it unless you grab Urban Barbarian so you can increase your Dexterity when you rage. Doing so isn't too bad, but the deeper you go in Barbarian, the less ranged-focused options you're going to find.
Ranger, surprisingly, is a poor option for the Gunslinger. There isn't a combat style that supports firearms very well yet (though Crossbow does an okay job) and generally speaking the Ranger's firearms archetype, the trophey hunter, isn't very strong.
Cavalier is better as a Gunslinger substitute than an add-on. Combining the Luring Cavalier and Musketeer archetypes is extremely powerful, and your tiefling might think about going Order of the Cockatrice for a gun-totting braggart. I'm a big fan of the gendarme archetype, but I don't think it stacks with either of the previously mentioned ones, which are *much* better for a gunner.
Dodge as a bonus feat sounds pretty good, since deft shootist feels like a must have(and provoking an AoO on free actions feels weird)
Would Trench fighters dex-to-damage stack with gun training? I don't think it would.
I'd have thought that it was counted as a Dex bonus. Would only be applied once if added from different sources. I could be wrong though, I come from a group with a level of system mastery that included a guy who thought Mutagens lasted 24 hrs.
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I'd have thought that it was counted as a Dex bonus. Would only be applied once if added from different sources. I could be wrong though, I come from a group with a level of system mastery that included a guy who thought Mutagens lasted 24 hrs.
It's an untyped bonus. It is equal to your dex bonus, but not a dex bonus.
The dip will keep you BAB up, and add some extra proficiencies.
Interesting. The potential for cheese here is enormous. Or at least +4 damage. And two feats.
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Two levels of Monk for evasion and good spells.
Two levels of rogue nets you some nice benefits, with skills, evasion, a talent, trapfinding, and some cool flavor.
Alchemist for the Mutagen and extracts of cure light wounds. Take chirurgeon archetype and get the discovery preserve organs or spontaneous healing for some nice defensive options.
Gunslinger dip because single-classing is a very powerful option in PF.
Two levels of Monk for evasion and good spells.
Two levels of rogue nets you some nice benefits, with skills, evasion, a talent, trapfinding, and some cool flavor.
Alchemist for the Mutagen and extracts of cure light wounds. Take chirurgeon archetype and get the discovery preserve organs or spontaneous healing for some nice defensive options.
Gunslinger dip because single-classing is a very powerful option in PF.
Good ideas everybody! I can't decide between the monk for numerous misc. benefits and two feats, or Alchemist (already have craft: alchemy). both add nice RP and flavor options.
Gotta be honest though; Gunslinger dip sounds pretty crazy.
Gunslinger dip was a joke, its just don't multiclass
The dangers of text-only humor, I'm afraid. Sometimes jokes on both sides fail to come across.
Gunslingers are full BAB classes with a wide variety of weapon proficiency. Nothing says great like taking a level in a class that makes you take your armor off and use your fists (without progression, its just a slap compared to other options), and lose out on full BAB.
Don't take a level in monk. Stick with your base class.
Oddly enough, I thought Inquisitor. You lose one level of BAB, but gain divine spells, a malleable version of Smite Evil that works on whatever you point at, and a few cool goodies. It's dipable at 1-2 levels, 3 levels isn't worth it, and second level spells may possibly be worth it, but it's an investment at that point. Will and Fort saves are good.
Just my own thing here, but. I've noticed people mentioning Trench fighter, but when I look at that arch type, it states it for the 20th century. I don't see how that would apply to a char using non advanced firearms,
Starting at 3rd level, a trench fighter can select one specific type of firearm (such as a machine gun, revolver, or rifle).
So I'm sure this is a good dip, but that would be up the guys GM of course,
my self, for my musket master I did urban barb for 1 level, and its been very effective with that +4 to my dex, :) but do it after level 5 so you get dex to damage
wow, still getting replies. Well, it's sounding like my best options would be
1. more gunslinger
2. trench fighter
I do want to wait to lvl7 if I decide to multiclass because of said features, though. And if it matters, we are in fact using advanced firearms. I've got a revolver myself.
Just my own thing here, but. I've noticed people mentioning Trench fighter, but when I look at that arch type, it states it for the 20th century. I don't see how that would apply to a char using non advanced firearms,
Starting at 3rd level, a trench fighter can select one specific type of firearm (such as a machine gun, revolver, or rifle).
So I'm sure this is a good dip, but that would be up the guys GM of course,
my self, for my musket master I did urban barb for 1 level, and its been very effective with that +4 to my dex, :) but do it after level 5 so you get dex to damage
wow, still getting replies. Well, it's sounding like my best options would be
1. more gunslinger
2. trench fighterI do want to wait to lvl7 if I decide to multiclass because of said features, though. And if it matters, we are in fact using advanced firearms. I've got a revolver myself.
Actually trench fighter is for modern firearms, a step above advanced firearms.
Edit Note: Rasputin Must Die has modern firearms rules and trench fighter
Just my own thing here, but. I've noticed people mentioning Trench fighter, but when I look at that arch type, it states it for the 20th century. I don't see how that would apply to a char using non advanced firearms,
Starting at 3rd level, a trench fighter can select one specific type of firearm (such as a machine gun, revolver, or rifle).
So I'm sure this is a good dip, but that would be up the guys GM of course,
my self, for my musket master I did urban barb for 1 level, and its been very effective with that +4 to my dex, :) but do it after level 5 so you get dex to damage
wow, still getting replies. Well, it's sounding like my best options would be
1. more gunslinger
2. trench fighterI do want to wait to lvl7 if I decide to multiclass because of said features, though. And if it matters, we are in fact using advanced firearms. I've got a revolver myself.
Actually trench fighter is for modern firearms, a step above advanced firearms.
Edit Note: Rasputin Must Die has modern firearms rules and trench fighter
Funny thing is, I'm pretty sure we'll be running into WW1 with our current group. (me, aasimar dragonrider, half-orc inquisitor)
The reactions from soldiers should be hysterical.
Just my own thing here, but. I've noticed people mentioning Trench fighter, but when I look at that arch type, it states it for the 20th century. I don't see how that would apply to a char using non advanced firearms,
Starting at 3rd level, a trench fighter can select one specific type of firearm (such as a machine gun, revolver, or rifle).
So I'm sure this is a good dip, but that would be up the guys GM of course,
my self, for my musket master I did urban barb for 1 level, and its been very effective with that +4 to my dex, :) but do it after level 5 so you get dex to damage
wow, still getting replies. Well, it's sounding like my best options would be
1. more gunslinger
2. trench fighterI do want to wait to lvl7 if I decide to multiclass because of said features, though. And if it matters, we are in fact using advanced firearms. I've got a revolver myself.
Actually trench fighter is for modern firearms, a step above advanced firearms.
Edit Note: Rasputin Must Die has modern firearms rules and trench fighter
Funny thing is, I'm pretty sure we'll be running into WW1 with our current group. (me, aasimar dragonrider, half-orc inquisitor)
The reactions from soldiers should be hysterical.
Cool. Playing Reign of Winter (Rasputin Must Die is part 5)?
Anyway, there has been some debate whether or not you can receive a bonus twice from the same ability. I'm thinking the rules developers were leaning toward yes and James Jacobs thought it should be no but he is not a rules developer. Some very long threads on the subject.
Basically two untyped bonuses stack unless they are from the same source.
For the gunslinger the "source" of the bonus is "gun training" and the source for the fighter is "trench warfare". They should stack unless your DM thinks you shouldn't be able to source the same ability twice for a bonus, basically saying that dexterity is the same root source for both and that adding it twice is counter-intuitive and can be justified as being the same source twice.
Just my own thing here, but. I've noticed people mentioning Trench fighter, but when I look at that arch type, it states it for the 20th century. I don't see how that would apply to a char using non advanced firearms,
Starting at 3rd level, a trench fighter can select one specific type of firearm (such as a machine gun, revolver, or rifle).
So I'm sure this is a good dip, but that would be up the guys GM of course,
my self, for my musket master I did urban barb for 1 level, and its been very effective with that +4 to my dex, :) but do it after level 5 so you get dex to damage
wow, still getting replies. Well, it's sounding like my best options would be
1. more gunslinger
2. trench fighterI do want to wait to lvl7 if I decide to multiclass because of said features, though. And if it matters, we are in fact using advanced firearms. I've got a revolver myself.
Actually trench fighter is for modern firearms, a step above advanced firearms.
Edit Note: Rasputin Must Die has modern firearms rules and trench fighter
Funny thing is, I'm pretty sure we'll be running into WW1 with our current group. (me, aasimar dragonrider, half-orc inquisitor)
The reactions from soldiers should be hysterical.
Cool. Playing Reign of Winter (Rasputin Must Die is part 5)?
Anyway, there has been some debate whether or not you can receive a bonus twice from the same ability. I'm thinking the rules developers were leaning toward yes and James Jacobs thought it should be no but he is not a rules developer. Some very long threads on the subject.
Basically two untyped bonuses stack unless they are from the same source.
For the gunslinger the "source" of the bonus is "gun training" and the source for the fighter is "trench warfare". They should stack unless your DM thinks you shouldn't be able to source the same ability twice for a...
Yes, reign of winter. really enjoying it so far. TBH, I'd have to side with James Jacobs on that one, it doesn't seem like RAI to me. Like how when the gunslinger first came out, you could technically take pistolero and musket master together because pistolero doesn't actually replace gun training, it adds pistol training. got FAQ'd though.
Doesn't mean I won't try it though.
With that Charisma I would go for a sorcerer dip in a heartbeat. Wand usage, UMD, utility scrolls, spells, bloodline of your choice and a boost to your weakest save. Might be some kind of Oracle angle you could milk instead but I am not great at milking oracle dips for synergies.
Level one spells and a bloodline? That sounds like a really good flavor angle to go for. Plus UMD would be great.
With that Charisma I would go for a sorcerer dip in a heartbeat. Wand usage, UMD, utility scrolls, spells, bloodline of your choice and a boost to your weakest save. Might be some kind of Oracle angle you could milk instead but I am not great at milking oracle dips for synergies.Level one spells and a bloodline? That sounds like a really good flavor angle to go for. Plus UMD would be great.
Or, a two level dip into oracle of battle. It synergizes nicely with gunslinger. Choose a curse like tongues (and everyone can buy a linguistics rank on the language you choose) or deaf (natural result of firing a gun/battle and you cast all your spells with the silent metamagic feat attached at no cost).
For your one revelation take war sight which lets you roll two dice for initiative and take the better result every time. Pretty good for something available to a 1st level character and very good for a gunslinger.
Plus you would get a few known spells not the least of which is cure light wounds 3 or 4 times per day. At 2nd level you would get enlarge person. Picture using an enlarged machine gun as a large character.
Also, if you so chose, you could use feats to pick up extra revelations such as combat healer. Casting a cure light wounds as a swift action (two slots) without provoking an attack of opportunity to stop a bleed while in melee (or without, keep making full attacks...) is a really handy concept.
You can take an immediate action in the middle of another creature's turn, correct?
Take Surprising Charge and once per day, as an immediate action, you can move your speed. If a creature thinks to charge or move into you to threaten you when shooting then right before he reaches you, you end up backing off 20 feet or so. Or move your speed and then take a full attack with your gun. That could be quite a shock to your DM.
Also, do you plan on taking fiend sight twice to get the monster ability see in darkness? You could cast deeper darkness on yourself from a scroll (or have someone else cast it on you) and then move into melee, blasting people at point blank range with no fear of attacks of opportunity and against their touch AC without their dex bonus. Or just use it to fire from cover against their touch without dex, no chance of getting hit be a melee swing and you can't be targeted at range.
Also taking the eldritch heritage feat chain can give you access to scaling powers of a sorcerer bloodline without taking sorcerer levels.
Looked at the Aegis class, and it looks pretty interesting. Could go with a demonic look for the suit, and damage reduction is always nice. Inquisitor though, might give me the flavor angle I'm looking for.
Alchemist is a very good dip for a gunslinger; as mentioned, Mutagen to boost Dex and Vestigial Arm to make reloading much easier. If you take 4 levels in alchemist, you can take the Explosive Missile discovery, which can give you some versatility with your damage (or, with other discoveries for your bombs, provide other effects).
Alchemist is awesome, as the bombs become ammo for a grenade launcher! I like to take a 1-level dip into Trophy Hunter for the UberTrack ability it gets. Plus a quick +2 for a Favored Enemy is always situationaly good. And if you keep it for 2, you get Extra Grit from the Ameture Gunslinger feat, and since Survival is a Gunslinger feat, you can always get better at it.
I dunno, the idea of the Steve Irwin, Crock Hunter with Explosives always seemed like a good idea.
Just my own thing here, but. I've noticed people mentioning Trench fighter, but when I look at that arch type, it states it for the 20th century. I don't see how that would apply to a char using non advanced firearms,
Starting at 3rd level, a trench fighter can select one specific type of firearm (such as a machine gun, revolver, or rifle).
So I'm sure this is a good dip, but that would be up the guys GM of course,
my self, for my musket master I did urban barb for 1 level, and its been very effective with that +4 to my dex, :) but do it after level 5 so you get dex to damage
Trench Fighter was designed for use in Rasputin Must Die, which is why the archetype is tailored towards 20th Century fighting. (Namely, we don't use heavy armor, so a 20th Century Fighter wouldn't have Armor Training.)
That said, I see no reason why a WWI veteran couldn't be as skilled with an early firearm as he is with modern weaponry. When it comes to PC use, however, I imagine that the design team isn't crazy about the Trench Fighter because it trades a small defensive bonus for a huge offensive bonus (a double-no according to SKR). Note that if you compare the Gunslinger to the Fighter, the Gunslinger effectively trades Weapon Training for Gun Training, and Trench Warfare is a better version of Gun Training. That said, it still doesn't stop me from using Trench Fighter as a Fighter dip on my NPCs ....
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Gunslinger bonus to AC
The Monk's bonus is a million times better and its stacks with the Gunslinger's bonus. (They're both Dodge bonuses.) Considering this character needs a good Wisdom, its a +3 or +4 now for a +1 later.
Ranged disarm
Ranged confuse
Ranged knockdown
Ranged grounding of fliers
Targeting Shot is limited use (until 11th Level) and if my memory serves correctly, anything immune to sneak attack is immune to it. Its good, but not great.
Gunslinger Manyshot/reduced misfire.
Not sure what you're referring to here.
Gunslinger bonus feat. (which could be say...Improved Unarmed Strike)
Long term, a Gunslinger 2 / Monk 2 ends up with a whopping three feats over the the Gunslinger 20. (You lose the Gunslinger's 20th level Feat but gain four from the monk.) The advantage of the Monk is A) the feats are frontloaded to you while the disadvantage is A) you don't get a choice in feats.
Gunslingers get evasion, uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge. One becomes redundant and the others are now level 17.
BAB progression and iterative attacks.
Getting evasion is nice. Getting evasion at 15th level when I could have bought a ring is not. By multiclassing, you could be a third level character with evasion, plus tons of other neat tricks.
d10 hit points.
On average, a G18/M2 has 2 fewer hit points than the G20. If you are using HP retraining, then you have 4 fewer hit points. Not a huge deal.
Monks have 3 favored saves...gunslingers have 2. In a way you're really only gaining a bonus to 1 save.
Long-term, your worst save (Will) will be at +2. Will saves suck to fail, and multiclassing monk doesn't negatively impact your other saves. That's the equivalent of the Iron Will feat, except you could also take Iron Will if you wanted.
Dips are awesome when you build'em right.
Just my own thing here, but. I've noticed people mentioning Trench fighter, but when I look at that arch type, it states it for the 20th century. I don't see how that would apply to a char using non advanced firearms,
Starting at 3rd level, a trench fighter can select one specific type of firearm (such as a machine gun, revolver, or rifle).
So I'm sure this is a good dip, but that would be up the guys GM of course,
my self, for my musket master I did urban barb for 1 level, and its been very effective with that +4 to my dex, :) but do it after level 5 so you get dex to damage
Trench Fighter was designed for use in Rasputin Must Die, which is why the archetype is tailored towards 20th Century fighting. (Namely, we don't use heavy armor, so a 20th Century Fighter wouldn't have Armor Training.)
That said, I see no reason why a WWI veteran couldn't be as skilled with an early firearm as he is with modern weaponry. When it comes to PC use, however, I imagine that the design team isn't crazy about the Trench Fighter because it trades a small defensive bonus for a huge offensive bonus (a double-no according to SKR). Note that if you compare the Gunslinger to the Fighter, the Gunslinger effectively trades Weapon Training for Gun Training, and Trench Warfare is a better version of Gun Training. That said, it still doesn't stop me from using Trench Fighter as a Fighter dip on my NPCs ....
Just a couple notes here...
1. The PC is being used in the Reign of Winter AP and thus will eventually be in Rasputin Must Die, making trench fighter available. Also, as trench warfare is an archetype quality that doesn't appear until 3rd level (replacing a quality normally gained at 3rd level), the character could pick up two levels of fighter in Golarion and then pick up the 3rd level on Earth and switch to trench fighter without needing any retraining. But, that would still mean taking three levels instead of the mentioned two levels.
2. I'm not sure how trench warfare is a better version of guntraining. They both add a new weapon type every four levels and both give the same bonus. Trench warfare gives a +2 bonus to his AC when behind many types of cover but the guntraining gives better results when using a gun after it misfires (misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4). The fighter gains trench warfare at 3rd level but in the modern firearms era (where trench fighter is available) the gunslinger gains guntraining at 1st level. Combined with weapon training it is very good for damage but giving up reduced misfire is a big deal, IMO.
Just a note regarding saves
gunslinger 20
F +!2
R +12
W +6
Gunslinger 18
F +11
R +11
W +6
Monk 2
F +3
R +3
W +3
Gunslinger 18/Monk 2
F +14
R +14
W +9
Long term, all three saves go up at least 2, will by 3.
Short term, they all go up also.
When monk 1 is picked up, all three saves immediately go up by +2, better in all three saves than any single level gain after first level. Next monk level all three saves immediately go up by +1, better in one or more saves excepting levels divisible by 6 where it is equal.