|
that costs a trait, a familiar choice (and preventing improved familiar).
also +9 is miles from being obsolete. until we're talking about +15 or higher it's still going to have a relevant impact against monsters.
Simply because of the variance of die rolls.
Talking about DC 21 first level spells is irrelevant to the initiative discussion.
If we're talking ifrit, that's a race boon and it's pretty much their schtik, so let em have it :D
|
heck, I've had posters point out that I should not raise my PCs Perception so high that he finds the traps on a "Take 10" - you know, there should be a limit on skill bonuses!There is already essentially a limit on skill bonuses as well. While a soft cap, most skills stop gaining benefits once you can hit a DC 40.must be my day for being confused...
"...most skills stop gaining benefits once you can hit a DC 40."??? what?I have a PC who has Perception bonuses above +20 just so I can hit DCs above 40 - which I have encountered.
I have been the judge at a Tier 1-2 table when the party encountered (and using a Boon, beat) a Disable Device DC of 60. (yeah, the Druid burned a momentary savant boon to pick a lock).
are you suggesting that DCs above 40 are not encountered? or what?
What scenario? A DC 60 lock for a tier 1-2 group seem to be meant as a unsurmountable obstacle. I would buy it just to read it and see why there is a disable Device with a DC of 60.
|
What scenario? A DC 60 lock for a tier 1-2 group seem to be meant as a unsurmountable obstacle. I would buy it just to read it and see why there is a disable Device with a DC of 60.heck, I've had posters point out that I should not raise my PCs Perception so high that he finds the traps on a "Take 10" - you know, there should be a limit on skill bonuses!There is already essentially a limit on skill bonuses as well. While a soft cap, most skills stop gaining benefits once you can hit a DC 40.must be my day for being confused...
"...most skills stop gaining benefits once you can hit a DC 40."??? what?I have a PC who has Perception bonuses above +20 just so I can hit DCs above 40 - which I have encountered.
I have been the judge at a Tier 1-2 table when the party encountered (and using a Boon, beat) a Disable Device DC of 60. (yeah, the Druid burned a momentary savant boon to pick a lock).
are you suggesting that DCs above 40 are not encountered? or what?
I think he means they got higher than a 60 on the check, not that the DC was set that high.
|
heck, I've had posters point out that I should not raise my PCs Perception so high that he finds the traps on a "Take 10" - you know, there should be a limit on skill bonuses!There is already essentially a limit on skill bonuses as well. While a soft cap, most skills stop gaining benefits once you can hit a DC 40.must be my day for being confused...
"...most skills stop gaining benefits once you can hit a DC 40."??? what?I have a PC who has Perception bonuses above +20 just so I can hit DCs above 40 - which I have encountered.
I have been the judge at a Tier 1-2 table when the party encountered (and using a Boon, beat) a Disable Device DC of 60. (yeah, the Druid burned a momentary savant boon to pick a lock).
are you suggesting that DCs above 40 are not encountered? or what?
Thanks to the blessings of Abadar, I can pull knowledge that even the mightiest of sphinxes do not have (DC 60+ with ease).
|
Also, don't forget that "hyperoptimized" at 5th level becomes "suvivable" at 11th.You would think this true, but at least in PFS, the truth is actually the opposite. Optimized characters tend to roll over things even faster at 10-11.
-Matt
Maybe, but the alternative seems to becoming a corpse pretty quickly. Tier 10-11 seems to be pretty fatal.
|
Maybe, but the alternative seems to becoming a corpse pretty quickly. Tier 10-11 seems to be pretty fatal.Also, don't forget that "hyperoptimized" at 5th level becomes "suvivable" at 11th.You would think this true, but at least in PFS, the truth is actually the opposite. Optimized characters tend to roll over things even faster at 10-11.
-Matt
I don't know that I'd say "hyperoptimized" at low tier becomes survivable at high tier. The group I play with, at tier 10-11 mind you, pretty much curbstomps any and all content put before them, even the things players are theoretically not supposed to defeat. So far the season from which this content is drawn has proven not to matter.
Thus, I would say being "hyperoptimized" still gives you a huge edge up even once you're getting into theoretically more dangerous content. The power creep is amplified several times over in parties where system mastery is the word of the week.
|
|
I do not think "im losing because my player are going too fast" so we should make them not go as fast. is a good idea. if used with same logic, should we also cap damage on fire ball sorcerers, gunslingers, zen archers, or even more, cap bards because we can always success on deplomacy? then why don't we all just play lvl 1 commoners?
like, this is a fantasy game and pathfinders should be superheros, they should be stronger than an average person. this is their story, their tale, their adventure.
also there are totally mod where going first meant nothing, or they a readied action go off and now the BBEG is going before the 40+ initiative roll because he is smart.
While I know that this could be a part of the general system as well, I'm posting it in PFS because in a home game a GM can control the characters more.
The initiatives I'm starting to see in PFS games are starting to get really out of a control. Last night in a game I ran there were two characters that had 15+ initiative modifiers and totals that were pushing 27-38.
Not only is this not fun for the GM, but its not fun for the players either. One of the players at my table didn't get to act in three combats for the scenario because everyone else's numbers completely blew them out of the water. If they had rolled a 20, they still would have gone after those characters.
While future scenarios could possibly introduce creatures with higher initiatives, there's no way that PFS staff could try to fix this problem for all of the previous scenarios. A hard cap of initiative would help control this problem a little bit, while also helping players explore other parts of their characters.
Example: If the hard cap on initiative modifiers were set to 10, players who wanted to have a character go first would still have a higher chance of going first, but turn order would be a little more random giving slower initiative characters more of a chance to participate in the game.
While this is a little long of a post, I've already witnessed one game that potentially last two players due to incredibly high initiative characters. Both players eventually returned, but it was a month after that game, leaving our venue to wonder if we had inadvertently chased away two players.
I do welcome any thoughts on the subject, as this isn't the first time the issue of high initiatives has come up, but this is one of the first potential solutions that I'm aware of.
EDIT: There has been some confusion as to my original intention for the cap. The intention was to cap initiative modifiers at 10, meaning that the max initiative would be 30. Max initiative of 30 would still be enough for anyone who wanted to go...
Mythic adventure ** spoiler omitted **
Could you point out which scenario(s) are using mythic creatures?
Thanks. I didn't realize that mythic rules had been used anywhere. But I think that this is the exception tha proves the rule. I suspect that that type of adventure is the only time that we will see mythic content (or killer scenarios on hard mode).
I am still not seeing how an intiative cap would help with the scenario and PC types that you listed.
The main arguement on why not to ban this or that has already been made multiple times. People are being frivoulous now because there's nothing new to be said.
To summarize, though...
The problem behaviors described are not caused by rules mechanics.
They cannot be fixed by changes to game mechanics.
Not in the long term, anyway.
Certainly it is not a bad idea to avoid writing encounters that can be one-shotted, like the single opponent fight. However, players repeatedly dominating fights using overpowered mechanics at the expense of other's enjoyment is really a function of play style, not the rules.
If you 'nerf' a mechanic because a small percentage of folks push the mechanic to it's limits, or write encounters to blunt the overpowered effects of the abused mechanics, the folks who engage in the problem behavior will just find some other mechanic to abuse.
Ultimately it is the attitude that one must 'win' the game, even at the expense of other players enjoyment, that is the cause. The only real lasting solution is to make sure the player in question is aware of the negative effects he is generating on his fellow players. That requires communication, not more rules.
Most folks will probably tone it down a bit on their own once aware of the issue. Others might need a bit of mentoring.
Those that cannot curb their impulses to run roughshod over their fellows, honestly, really need to find some other campaign to play. PFS is not for them.
To be clear, I am not talking about just powergaming. There are plenty of folks that just love optimizing but are otherwise respectful and considerate of their fellow players.
I am talking about folks that regularly make the game unfun for the rest of the table. Most are likely just unaware, and merely need to realise what is happening. Which means some form of communication, which will vary depending on the person.
Those few that are aware, but keep doing it, I have no qualm about saying they don't need to be a part of PFS.
-j
My gun slinger is built around going first. She has her dex into it, a trait, a racial trait, Her favored class bonus(1/2 to Gunslings intitiative, a class feature, and possibly a feat(Imprved initiative)
Many things I put into my chracter are not going to be used, and be useless. Not to mention She quite often needs to go first so the other chracters are not in the way(I have yet to get precise shot)
|
Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover
|
My gun slinger is built around going first. She has her dex into it, a trait, a racial trait, Her favored class bonus(1/2 to Gunslings intitiative, a class feature, and possibly a feat(Imprved initiative)
Many things I put into my chracter are not going to be used, and be useless. Not to mention She quite often needs to go first so the other chracters are not in the way(I have yet to get precise shot)
That´s just an example how more teamplay is the way stronger "build".
You could go last if the others would just play cooperative. You can also incorporate that into your gaming, like your character saying: "Hey XY get out of the way i need a clear shot!"
That´s just an example how more teamplay is the way stronger "build".
Eh, getting people to play like that varies in success though. I think the phrase is "like herding cats" or something similar. I've seen people stand in the way of fire or ubercharger's charge lanes plenty times. Not at all the fault of the build, its because one guy didn't pay attention. Not so much an example of Teamplay > Build as it is how much one guy can make things suck. Its also still a good example of when there's an advantage to going first, because everyone isn't conforming to one player's needs.(Edit: Also, a good character build and teamplay aren't mutually exclusive)
Tried that, when there are 15 Player controled Characters, it isnt fun.
|
Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover
|
Well, as a gunslinger he at least doesn´t go into spell affect area at least. Ride-by-attacks are also fine.
But it´s super stupid to charge in and do whatever before the casters where able to place some effects there. And that has nothing to do with my characters character blablabla, but is boarderlining the don´t be a jerk rule often i think.
|
|
My gun slinger is built around going first. She has her dex into it, a trait, a racial trait, Her favored class bonus(1/2 to Gunslings intitiative, a class feature, and possibly a feat(Imprved initiative)
Many things I put into my chracter are not going to be used, and be useless. Not to mention She quite often needs to go first so the other chracters are not in the way(I have yet to get precise shot)
To ask a silly question, is Precise Shot not a better investment for a Gunslinger than Improved Initiative (given the bonuses already incorporated in the described character)?
To ask a silly question, is Precise Shot not a better investment for a Gunslinger than Improved Initiative (given the bonuses already incorporated in the described character)?My gun slinger is built around going first. She has her dex into it, a trait, a racial trait, Her favored class bonus(1/2 to Gunslings intitiative, a class feature, and possibly a feat(Imprved initiative)
Many things I put into my chracter are not going to be used, and be useless. Not to mention She quite often needs to go first so the other chracters are not in the way(I have yet to get precise shot)
A bit of clarification, I dont have improved yet, im ony LVL 2 and taking precise shot next. What Im saying is lets say I do make that build, and no rebuild is allowed, I just wasted alot
The init isn't the problem with what I can see its the scenarios are way to easy in regards to combat. The other day we played with 5 players a 3-7 (t6-7) game our players were 3-6. On the boss fight the boss feared 3 of us and we coward for 7 rounds and the only one that made the save was a zen archer that got permanently blinded. None of us lost more than 15% of our health.
Let's be honest if I had 7 rounds with any of my toons to beat on any mob in pfs it would be dead. I'm sorry......stuffs to easy!
Then I say reward non-combat. You can only optimize for so much in deplomacizing. Reward Players who are skip combats by talking.
|
|
Then I say reward non-combat. You can only optimize for so much in deplomacizing. Reward Players who are skip combats by talking.
... Yeah, I'm gonna stop you right there. There are two people I play with that have their charisma related skills so indescribably high that they could realistically shut down just about anything they wanted to. You can optimize for social encounters to an astounding degree.
Then I say reward non-combat. You can only optimize for so much in deplomacizing. Reward Players who are skip combats by talking.... Yeah, I'm gonna stop you right there. There are two people I play with that have their charisma related skills so indescribably high that they could realistically shut down just about anything they wanted to. You can optimize for social encounters to an astounding degree.
Yarr, while I love roleplaying, the actual social encounter mechancis leave something to be desired and skill checks can be cranked pretty hard. 5+3+2+lvl+Charisma for characters without bonuses outside basic magic items.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
Yarr, while I love roleplaying, the actual social encounter mechancis leave something to be desired and skill checks can be cranked pretty hard. 5+3+2+lvl+Charisma for characters without bonuses outside basic magic items. [Dice=Diplomacy] 1d20 + 32Then I say reward non-combat. You can only optimize for so much in deplomacizing. Reward Players who are skip combats by talking.... Yeah, I'm gonna stop you right there. There are two people I play with that have their charisma related skills so indescribably high that they could realistically shut down just about anything they wanted to. You can optimize for social encounters to an astounding degree.
I'm trying to figure out where the +5 in that equation comes from. Also, assuming a 24 charisma, that +32 seems to imply we are talking about a level 15 character?
I'm trying to figure out where the +5 in that equation comes from. Also, assuming a 24 charisma, that +32 seems to imply we are talking about a level 15 character?
+2 circumstance, +5 competence, +x charisma, +3 in class. Charisma based casters can pump it pretty hard. Alternatively, there's are two inquisitions that adds wisdom instead of charisma, there's are two inquisitor archetypes that can add wisdom to whatever their other modifier is(which may mean double dipping), and there are 3 traits off the top of my head that let you use intelligence instead of charisma for a social skill. There are also abilities that allow rerolls and further augment it in some fashion. That's really just off the top of my head math though. 32 was just a random number.
Anyways, the point was about skill checks being easy to manipulate and far from perfect, though again, I do enjoy roleplay.
|
|
I'm trying to figure out where the +5 in that equation comes from. Also, assuming a 24 charisma, that +32 seems to imply we are talking about a level 15 character?Yarr, while I love roleplaying, the actual social encounter mechancis leave something to be desired and skill checks can be cranked pretty hard. 5+3+2+lvl+Charisma for characters without bonuses outside basic magic items. [Dice=Diplomacy] 1d20 + 32Then I say reward non-combat. You can only optimize for so much in deplomacizing. Reward Players who are skip combats by talking.... Yeah, I'm gonna stop you right there. There are two people I play with that have their charisma related skills so indescribably high that they could realistically shut down just about anything they wanted to. You can optimize for social encounters to an astounding degree.
You could also do the following: +6 headband (obtainable very early and very easily), +2 from a trait, +3 from a circlet of persuasion, +3 from the bonus you get to it when it's a class skill, + level, we'll assume 10 for argument's sake, + 8 from CHA modifier; +8 is a reasonable modifier to obtain under the right circumstances. Adding them all together will indeed result in a modifier of +32 very easily; it could be increased further by putting skill focus on your social skill of choice. That simple addition will turn your modifier of +32 into +38 courtesy of skill focus improving itself at ten ranks. God forbid someone also has a class mechanic that allows them to add their level (or just half of it) on these checks. In any case, that person rolling a +38 diplomacy could probably talk just about anything down if it's intelligent. Or barring that, scare the crap out of it; their intimidate roll is probably only going to lag a few points behind if their diplomancy is so high.
Hmm... is there also a familiar that enhances diplomacy? Not sure on that one; I haven't looked at'em much.