This may have been answered elsewhere, if so I apologize.
It seems to me that your average sorcerer is required to make a UMD roll every time they wish to use a scroll even if the spell is on the sorcerer list.
The Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play says that all scrolls in Organized Play are considered to be made by Clerics, Druids, or Wizards, with the exception of spells that are not on any of those classes' lists.
The Use Magic Device Skill description states under "Emulate an Ability Score", To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you're emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don't need to make this check.
It seems to me that if a Sorcerer has an average INT (10) then he would need to make a DC 26 UMD check just to use a lvl 1 spell off of the Sorc/Wiz list.
Am I missing something or is this as designed?
I understand the requirement that all scrolls be bought at the lowest possible caster lvl and that sorcerer spells would in general be more expensive because they are a lvl behind in being able to cast new spells, but this is not true for lvl 1 spells as the cost would be the same if created by a sorcerer or a wizard.
Thank you in advance for any clarification or responses.
Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you're emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don't need to make this check.
Since wizard spells ARE sorcerer spells, you can ride on either your int or your charisma (whistles innocently), unless you're casting Rary's pnemonic enhancement or something equally weird.
@ Porter :I agree with you, a DC of 21 to cast a spell not on your list seems fair to me. In this case lets say a lvl 1 paladin spell. A DC of 26 to cast a spell off of your spell list seems a bit extreme. In this case it seems that it would be far easier for a sorcerer to use a lvl 1 paladin spell then a lvl 1 sorcerer spell (as it would be treated as a wizard spell and therefore require the Emulate Ability Score part of UMD).
@NorseWolf, the issue here is that in PFS all scrolls are considered to be made by Clerics, Druids, or Wizards, with the exception of spells that are not on any of those classes' lists. I agree that for spells that appear on both the cleric and wizard/sorcerer list you could use either int or wisdom however neither of these are good options for a charisma based sorcerer.
@NorseWolf, the issue here is that in PFS all scrolls are considered to be made by Clerics, Druids, or Wizards, with the exception of spells that are not on any of those classes' lists. I agree that for spells that appear on both the cleric and wizard/sorcerer list you could use either int or wisdom however neither of these are good options for a charisma based sorcerer.
It doesn't matter who made the spell, just what list the spell is on.
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Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you're emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don't need to make this check.
Since wizard spells ARE sorcerer spells, you can ride on either your int or your wisdom, unless you're casting Rary's pnemonic enhancement or something equally weird.
That was always my understanding. After all, PFS does not differentiate between arcane and divine spells if the spell appears on both a divine list and an arcane list (e. g. Abundant Ammunition). If a sorcerer wanted to use a scroll of Magic Missile, he would use his casting stat (usually CHA for a sorcerer).
Thank you for all of the responses. Has there been an official ruling on this? As much of a font of knowledge and authority as you are on these forums, your work is truly prodigious, an official ruling would eliminate any gray area.
It seems to me that if a Sorcerer has an average INT (10) then he would need to make a DC 26 UMD check just to use a lvl 1 spell off of the Sorc/Wiz list.
Am I missing something or is this as designed?
Here's the way it works.
Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.[.quote]
So the sorcerer pulls out the magic missile scroll made by a wizard. Is magic missile and arcane spell? Yes. Move onto next step.
Is the spell on the sorcerer's spell list? Yes move onto next step.
Do they have an 11 CHA? Hopefully move to next step.
Is the sorcerer's caster level high enough to cast magic missile? Yes, so spell can be cast.
UMD is only used when you either don't have a spell on your spell list, or don't have the ability score high enough in your class to cast the spell. Or a combination of both.
It doesn't matter what class crafted the scroll, and in PFS it doesn't even matter if the scroll is arcane or divine. As long as it's on your list, you have a high enough casting stat in the class, and you are a high enough caster level you can cast the spell.
BNW has it right... albeit subbing CHA for his mention of WIS... I guess BNW's just a big fan of Celestial Sorcerors ;-). Who isn't!?
The PFS rule saying who made the spell should NOT be carried over to saying what stat is used for it/whether it is a 'wizard or sorceror spell'. In fact, the actual rules for scrolls DON'T care who the creator was in terms of wizard vs. sorceror (and it isn't necessary to list that fact for scrolls found in loot/purchased in non-PFS adventures), this is all they require:
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
A Sorceror also doesn't need to make a "normal" UMD check (not the Emulate Ability Score Check) to use a Level 1 scroll made by a Wizard, or even a Witch (or CON-based Scarred Witch Doctor or WIS-based Celestial Sorceror!), those are all Arcane Scrolls of spells on the Sorceror's spell list... There is no mechanic that distinguishes between "Wizard spell scrolls" vs "Sorceror spell scrolls", beyond whether it is on your spell list. So the only thing they need to worry about is Caster Level (if they don't meet that, they make a Caster Level Check OR can use the standard UMD method that is still available to them).
For the same reason, an arcane scroll they want to use is not a "Wizard Spell" or "Sorceror Spell" or "Witch Spell" (if it appears on all those lists), it is just an Arcane spell. The "requisite ability score" mentioned in the scroll activation rules is NEVER linked to the ability score used by the creator: the scroll user can activate the scroll without UMD because it belongs to THEIR spell list, and thus they only need to worry about the Casting Stat tied to THEIR Spell List, since they are 'using' THEIR Spell List to activate it.
The PFS rule is used to determine pricing and minimum caster level and nothing else.
EDIT: For people who DO need to use UMD to activate the scroll (because the above 3 elements were not fulfilled), the following line is actually somewhat vague because scrolls of spells on multiple lists aren't actually typed as anything more than Arcane/Divine:
To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells).
It doesn't matter who created the scroll and what THEIR casting stat is (which could vary from the norm for their class/spell list, e.g. Celestial Sorcerors), that info doesn't actually need to be recorded for lootable/purchased scrolls. If you are using UMD to activate the item, you should be able to use an appropriate ability stat associated to ANY of the spell lists the spell is categorized as... The only thing giving us direction here is what Spell Level the scroll is, and using that Spell Level may rule out some potential casting classes/associated stats... But any of the casting classes/associated stats who have that spell at that spell level should be legit. I do think that you are obligated to use the standard stats associated with those spell lists, so no using CON or WIS (Scarred Witch Doctor/Celestial Sorceror Archetypes) for Arcane spells... EVEN IF the actual creator of the scroll had those Archetypes.
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BNW has it right... albeit subbing CHA for his mention of WIS... I guess BNW's just a big fan of Celestial Sorcerors ;-). Who isn't!?
There are other kinds?!?!?
So doesn't that mean you would have to make multiple checks for UMB cross class?
No, just cross spell list, which isn't quite the same thing.
No, not really. You're just over thinking it.
If you need UMD to use it, you are using the "Use a Scroll" usage of UMD, which is one check.
That lets you use the scroll, period. It also says you may need a 2nd check for Emulate Ability Score. That's two checks.
With those, you can use the scroll. Period. Because those checks say you can use the scroll then.
You aren't really using or worrying about the normal scroll usage rules, you are using the UMD rules instead.
Although honestly I would never roll both checks, I would just use the highest of the 2 DCs (normal Use a Scroll and Emulate Ability Score).
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Thank you for all of the responses. Has there been an official ruling on this? As much of a font of knowledge and authority as you are on these forums, your work is truly prodigious, an official ruling would eliminate any gray area.
This is a rules question. Not a PFS issue. You are not likely to get an official ruling as no ruling is necessary.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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sorcerer is required to make a UMD roll every time they wish to use a scroll even if the spell is on the sorcerer list.
If the scroll is Arcane and the spell is on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list (whether or not you know it as a spell) then you don't need UMD to cast it. You would need CHA sufficient to cast it or make a CL check.
This is a rules question. Not a PFS issue. You are not likely to get an official ruling as no ruling is necessary.
Even if it were in doubt (it isn't), getting official answers takes years to seemingly forever. Especially for things that a tiny minority dissent.
Use Magic Device in this case is irrelevant, if the spell is on your spell list and you are the level that you could cast it, you succeed. UMD is not needed in this case, and you can just read the scroll. You only need to make a caster level check if the spell is on your spell list, and you are not high enough level to cast from that scroll. It does not matter if a Wizard made the scoll at all. Also PFS has a house rule that there is an Arcane and Divine spell transparency. So a a Bard could cast from a Cure Light Wound scroll, as could a Paladin. This is mostly done to simplify paperwork.
Yeah, this. The question is moot. :)
Magic missile is a 1st level spell. A sorcerer with a Charisma of at least 11 can cast it without making a UMD check of any kind.
So i dont know if I am intrupretting this wrong but to activate a scroll it says:
So doesn't that mean you would have to make multiple checks for UMB cross class?To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
Maybe.
I might be wrong but from reading the UMB it sounds like if a cleric wants to cast an arcane spell they would have to do two UMB checks. Using the example of magic missile. First would be a Emulate a Class Feature UMB check to cast an arcane spell (DC 31) and then the second would be to activate the scroll (DC 21).
Per the UMD description, you need:
Use a scroll, DC 20 + CLand possibly
Emulate an ability score, DC 15 + Minimum Stat
if your stat is insufficient.
I think an argument can be made for the following as an optional alternative:
Emulate a Class Feature (Arcane Caster<spells>), DC 20
This gives you the spell list of the relevant caster. Now that it is on your list, do you have sufficient casting stat? If not, you need:
Emulate an ability score, DC 15 + Minimum Stat
Lastly, do you have sufficient caster level. If not, then you need:
Caster Level Check, DC 1 + CL
I argue for this for using a scroll of Reincarnate (druid 4) by my witch which has it at level 5. It is divine, not arcane, but is on my spell list and I have sufficient stat. [I still needed caster level, but that was another issue.]
Though a more important example would be a non-caster/arcane-caster casting Breath of Life onto a party member would need at most 4 UMB checks :/
DC 39, 34, 29, 10First UMB Emulate a Class Feature (DC: 10 + CL of Cleric(9th) + 20 class penalty to check) DC 39
Nope. Just Use a Scroll DC 20 + CL. BoL is 5th, so CL=9 and DC = 29.
Second UMB Arcane-caster: Dont worry about it I have an equivalent caster stat of at least 15.
Second UMB non-caster: Balls, I dont have a caster stat (DC 10 + CL of Cleric(9th) + 15 ability penalty) DC 34
Arcane caster needs their casting stat of at least 15 or they need to emulate it with:
Emulate an ability, DC 15 + Minimum Stat = 30.The same DC is needed if a non-caster does not have a pseudo casting stat of 15. I don't know what the RAW is for which stat to use, but I think it would default to the default casting stat of the creator's class. For a Cleric spell, that would be Wis. Others as stated.
Third UMB Activation without spell on spell list: (DC 20 + CL of scroll) DC 29
Already covered by the first UMD check.
Forth UMB Activation Arcane-Caster: I am Caster level 9! I don't have to worry about it.
Fourth UMB Activation non-caster: (DC CL of Cleric (9th) + 1) DC 10
-> If failed then need to make a DC 5 Wisdom check or scroll mishap :/
Already covered by the first UMD check.
And then the spell goes off.
Yep.
/cevah
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To cast a spell from a scroll perform the following steps:
Step 1) Is the spell on your spell list?
Yes: proceed to step 2.
No: Use UMD.
Step 2) Is the scroll Arcane and you are an Arcane spellcaster or Divine and you are a Divine spellcaster? Note: If playing Pathfinder Society skip this step and proceed to Step 3.
Yes: proceed to Step 3.
No: Use UMD.
Step 3) Have you deciphered the scroll using Spellcraft or Read Magic?
Yes: proceed to Step 4.
No: Decipher the scroll and then proceed to Step 4.
Step 4) Is the caster level higher than your caster level?
Yes: roll 1d20 and add your caster level against a DC of 1+scroll's caster level.
No: Cast the scroll normally.
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Using a Scroll via Use Magic Device:
Step 1) Decipher the Scroll. UMD DC 25+spell level or Spellcraft DC 20+spell Level.
This is done before you use the scroll because it takes 1 minute.
Step 2) Emulate an Ability score. You only need to do this if your ability score for the scroll (Intelligence for Wizard scrolls, Wisdom for Cleric and Druid scrolls) is not high enough.
The DC for this is written in an odd way but it amounts to DC25+spell level.
This is done when you use the scroll.
Step 3) Use a Scroll. The DC for this is 20+ spell level.
Thanks Gauss I was about to use machine logic to explain also, but it would not have been as short. :)