Bodyguard Feat (one FAQ to rule them all?)

[KingOfAnything]

Aid Another for spells is not explicitly laid out. If you agree and want to see it clarified, perhaps this thread from 5 years ago deserves some FAQ clicks.

[Del_Taco_Eater]

silverrey wrote:

Soooo.... Which post should be the new FAQ tag soak, or does someone want to compile the issues and hope for round 2 some day?

SUPPOSEDLY the number of clicks doesn't matter....

that said I'd like a faq answer to

1. does vanguard style (like the bodyguard feat that has the same wording) suffer from the same nerf?

2. a fleshed out explanation to how aid another works with spells. As of right now the rules are "make your gm wing the call literally every time you do this"

[KingOfAnything]

Del_Taco_Eater wrote:

silverrey wrote:

Soooo.... Which post should be the new FAQ tag soak, or does someone want to compile the issues and hope for round 2 some day?

SUPPOSEDLY the number of clicks doesn't matter....

that said I'd like a faq answer to

1. does vanguard style (like the bodyguard feat that has the same wording) suffer from the same nerf?

2. a fleshed out explanation to how aid another works with spells. As of right now the rules are "make your gm wing the call literally every time you do this"

I think that answering #2 will necessarily answer #1. If you have to threaten to aid a save, that applies to Vanguard Style. If you don't have to threaten to aid a save, that applies to Vanguard Style.

With that in mind, FAQ this

[_Ozy_]

KingOfAnything wrote:

Aid Another wrote:

You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character's skill check.

Something is not nothing.

If he's been affected by a spell, then he's already failed (or made) the save.

This means that if he is affected by sleep, you can use a standard action to wake him up.

But let's say you're right, I want to help someone break out of a charm spell. Do I have to be adjacent to him? Why? Do I have to make a DC10 Will save? Why?

Let's say he's been affected by a contagion spell. Can I use a standard action to give him a +2 bonus to his fort saves to resist the disease by making a DC10 fort save of my own? There are simply no mechanics in the game to do what you claim you can do.

[Nefreet]

KingOfAnything wrote:

Aid Another for spells is not explicitly laid out. If you agree and want to see it clarified, perhaps this thread from 5 years ago deserves some FAQ clicks.

Great find!!

I second the FAQing of that venerable post.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Personally, I don't think FAQing it will provide the answer we're looking for.

Still, it does serve as a starting point for at least some sort of clarification.

[Tali Wah]

Does this FAQ make the protector Familiar archetype pointless/unusable?
Nethys Protector link

edit: nvm, I reread the familiar protector

"If the familiar is occupying its master’s square, it can use Bodyguard to aid another to improve its master’s AC even if it doesn’t threaten the attacking foe."

[Scott Wilhelm]

Del_Taco_Eater wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Del_Taco_Eater wrote:

Clarification from BNW: to use vanguard style or add to a saving throw do you need to be near the ally? How near?

Vanguard Style wrote:

While using this style, when an adjacent ally is required to make a Reflex saving throw, you can expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s Reflex save. Your ally gains a +2 bonus to all Reflex saves while adjacent to you until the beginning of your next turn.

O, duh, still need clarification on aid another however.

Oops.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Nefreet wrote:

CBDunkerson wrote:

Also, the Earth is round.

I'm sorry, that statement is going to require its own clarification thread.

Just because you've been around the block doesn't mean the block is round.

[Scott Wilhelm]

KingOfAnything wrote:

You keep adding things to the rules that are not there.

No, it really is there. Aid Another, as described in the Combat section of the Core Rulebook, really does say you have to be threatening your opponent.

KingOfAnything wrote:

Bodyguard references Aiding AC, Vanguard Style uses the rules for Aiding a [Reflex Save]

But both say that you are using Aid Another in Combat. Aid Another in the Combat Section of the Core Rulebook does say that you have to be threatening your opponent. Furthermore, while Vanguard Style does not specify that you are using Bodyguard, Bodyguard is a prerequisite for Vanguard Style.

KingOfAnything wrote:

They are different, so don't keep treating them the same.

I am treating them as different where they say they are different. But the fact that the wording of Vanguard Style is similar to the wording of Bodyguard and the fact that Bodyguard is a prerequisite for Vanguard Style really suggests they should be treated a little the same.

But let's treat them differently a moment. The recent FAQ just banned using Paired Opportunist to get Attacks of Opportunity of Bodyguard. But the FAQ did not ban that for Vanguard Style. Does that mean I should be able to get an Attack of Opportunity if my Ally and I have Paired Opportunist and my ally uses Vanguard Style to use an Attack of Opportunity to Aid Another to improve my Reflex Save?

Or are they maybe just a little the same?

[Scott Wilhelm]

Tali Wah wrote:

Does this FAQ make the protector Familiar archetype pointless/unusable?

Nethys Protector link

edit: nvm, I reread the familiar protector

"If the familiar is occupying its master’s square, it can use Bodyguard to aid another to improve its master’s AC even if it doesn’t threaten the attacking foe."

No. You always had to Threaten an opponnet to use Bodyguard, except the Protector Familiar had the special ability to get around that. Perhaps an Eldritch Guardian who gave his Protector Familiar Vanguard Style could use that special Ability to grant his master Reflex Save bonuses, too. But perhaps that would be too much treating things the same that are really different.

[Scott Wilhelm]

silverrey wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

"Excuse me sir, why are you holding that dagger and advancing on the king?

"OH! I just need to aid my friends diplomacy check and i can't do that without threatening.

Irrelevant: using Aid Another to improve a skill check has nothing to do with the Aid Another Special Attack. Why are you even taling about this?

Probably because it makes as much sense as the Secret Service agent having to wait till the assassin puts the gun against the President's head before they can take the bullet for them.

Upon reflection, it might be reasonable that you have to be both adjacent to your ally and threatening the King if you want to make a Diplomacy Check as an Attack of Opportunity.

Normally, I think you would just be making Aid Another to Diplomacy checks as a Skill, and as some kind of action, I dunno, a Standard Action, and normally there is no Range for a Diplomacy Check or for Aiding one. You can make a Diplomacy Check by writing someone a lovely letter, for example. Like if someone is making a Diplomacy Check to get a job, and you are Aiding Another by writing a letter of recommendation.

But if you are Aiding Another to a Diplomacy Check as an Attack of Opportunity, that's different. That's like in Mall Rats, the obnoxious guy knocks the books out of the pretty girl's arms so the romantic lead can appear all gallant by picking them up for her: Aid Another to a Diplomacy Check in Combat requiring you be Threatening your opponent!

[KingOfAnything]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

KingOfAnything wrote:

You keep adding things to the rules that are not there.

No, it really is there. Aid Another, as described in the Combat section of the Core Rulebook, really does say you have to be threatening your opponent.

KingOfAnything wrote:

Bodyguard references Aiding AC, Vanguard Style uses the rules for Aiding a [Reflex Save]

But both say that you are using Aid Another in Combat. Aid Another in the Combat Section of the Core Rulebook does say that you have to be threatening your opponent. Furthermore, while Vanguard Style does not specify that you are using Bodyguard, Bodyguard is a prerequisite for Vanguard Style.

KingOfAnything wrote:

They are different, so don't keep treating them the same.

I am treating them as different where they say they are different. But the fact that the wording of Vanguard Style is similar to the wording of Bodyguard and the fact that Bodyguard is a prerequisite for Vanguard Style really suggests they should be treated a little the same.

But let's treat them differently a moment. The recent FAQ just banned using Paired Opportunist to get Attacks of Opportunity of Bodyguard. But the FAQ did not ban that for Vanguard Style. Does that mean I should be able to get an Attack of Opportunity if my Ally and I have Paired Opportunist and my ally uses Vanguard Style to use an Attack of Opportunity to Aid Another to improve my Reflex Save?

Or are they maybe just a little the same?

All you are doing is showing how little you understand the rules basis for the Bodyguard FAQ. Click the link to the other thread, FAQ and move on.

[BigNorseWolf]

The given rational in the FAQ is that you need to threaten because aid another to aid AC or damage require threatening, not because you had to make the AoO (which is what i thought it meant the first time i read it)

[Abraham spalding]

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

Answered in FAQ!

FAQ wrote:

Bodyguard: The Bodyguard feat says that I can spend one of my attacks of opportunity to use aid another to increase the AC of an adjacent ally, but it doesn’t say one way or the other whether this removes other restrictions on aid another? Particularly, do I need to threaten the attacking enemy? Also, has that enemy provoked an attack of opportunity from me?

You still need to fulfill all requirements of aid another, including threatening the attacking enemy. Bodyguard uses up one of your attacks of opportunity for the round, but the enemy hasn’t provoked an attack of opportunity from you, nor are you making one (which is relevant for abilities like Paired Opportunist).

How does one use aid another to improve a skill roll out of combat then?

[KingOfAnything]

The same way you always have. The requirement to threaten only applies to Aid Another for attack or AC.

[Squiggit]

Abraham spalding wrote:

How does one use aid another to improve a skill roll out of combat then?

The rules for aiding on skills are entirely separate and in the skills section, they still work fine. Some of the other variations on aid another get a little odd though. Or at the very least ambiguous.

[Barachiel Shina]

All these years and how Aid Another works to aid saving throws or not still isn't confirmed?

Also, is it automatic or does the ally need to make a check to aid another on a save, if it's official?