Bodyguard Feat (one FAQ to rule them all?)


Rules Questions

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CBDunkerson wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
I'm just saying that there are no rules mechanisms anywhere for boosting saving throws, outside the vanguard style.

There aren't really any 'rules mechanisms' for it in Vanguard Style either... just the statement that you can use an AoO to do it and that the bonus is +2.

Also, the Order of the Dragon Cavalier 'Aid Allies' ability increases aid another bonuses... specifically including those to saving throw checks.

We could assume that aid another for saving throws follows standard conventions (e.g. make a save yourself at DC 10), but aid another is usually a standard action you have to perform BEFORE the check to be aided... and you usually don't know in advance that your ally is about to need to make a saving throw.

Vanguard Style takes care of that by allowing the aid as an immediate action, but it doesn't explain the Cavalier ability or the reference to aiding against spells in the CRB.

You can use AoO to ATTEMPT it. So, what does it mean to attempt? You make the assumption that the person has to make a DC10 reflex save of his own to aid his companion, but I'm not sure that makes any sense at all, nor is it supported by any of the aid another mechanics, unlike the bodyguard feat.

Also, maybe you didn't mean this specifically, but AoOs are not 'immediate actions'.


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Darsol the painbringer wrote:
]It's not the RAW because skill checks have their own exception, and their own section.

Which does NOT mention range. All it does is trade the attack roll into a skill check.

Quote:
so needing an irrelevant feat like Bodyguard for a relevant ability like Vanguard Style is absolutely ridiculous.

One is using an AOO to protect your allies from an incoming sword.

The other is using your AoO to protect your allies from the incoming fireball. You do not get better thematic or mechanical links than that.

Quote:
Throws is a normal ability, that anyone can do, all this feat does is work as a "Bodyguard" feat for Saving Throws, which not only diminishes its raw power and ability

balderdash.

Aiding another is a standard action

Aiding another is a standard action

Aiding another is a standard action

That is the second time you have "forgotten" that in an attempt to find a problem with how i'm reading the rules. Changing something from a standard action (your MOST valuable resource) to an aoo (something you can easily have 6 of) is an enormous advantage. Not only have you dropped the resource requirement, but you've made aiding against a reflex saving throw actually usable, because you don't usually have a standard action at the time when you're getting hit with the fireball.

Quote:
Not the point I was trying to make, but merely an interesting observation when taking your interpretation

It's not interesting. It's banal, contrived, factually incorrect and outright tiresome.

Quote:

At 2nd level, whenever an order of the dragon cavalier uses the aid another action to assist one of his allies, the ally receives a +3 bonus to his Armor Class, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. At 8th level, and every six levels thereafter, this bonus increases by an additional +1.

Quote:
Would be pointlessly redundant.If anything, all that text would have to say is this:

And that would run the risk that some other ability somewhere allowed you to aid another to increase something else that they don't want you boosting.

Such as the order of the staffs spell aid.

Spell Aid (Ex): At 2nd level, whenever the cavalier uses the aid another action to assist one of his allies, the ally receives a +2 competence bonus on the next concentration check, dispel check, or caster level check she makes (whichever comes first). At 8th level and every six levels thereafter, this bonus increases by an additional +1.

So yes, there is a very good reason it was worded that way. It wanted you to stick with the existing types of aid another for the bonuses.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


Saving Throws do not, nor can you assume that they have it, because it's not explicitly listed. But, I'll go ahead and play along with your interpretation, if only to point something very crucial out to your argument.

Originally, we were talking about Vanguard Style, which gives a special ability to aid a Reflex Saving throw for an ally, as an AoO, no less. Now, if we were going to argue that giving Saving Throws is a normal ability, that anyone can do, all this feat does is work as a "Bodyguard" feat for Saving Throws, which not only diminishes its raw power and ability, but also throws into question, "Why is Bodyguard a feat requirement?" Outside of flavor purposes, this is the same excuse as to why Combat Expertise is a feat requirement for most every single other "decent" combat feat in the game; flavor, and feat taxing, because as you've pointed out with your base rules, Bodyguard has zero impact on your ability to Aid Another with Saving Throws, so needing an irrelevant feat like Bodyguard for a relevant ability like Vanguard Style is absolutely ridiculous.

Not the point I was trying to make, but merely an interesting observation when taking your interpretation, in that Bodyguard has become the next Combat Expertise. Funny, isn't it?

This is the second of many vague, poorly written rules that I would really like to see FAQed that I ran into when trying to figure out how my order of the dragon cavalier worked. Can you aid another saving throws normally? If you can't, what does that part of Aid Allies and the line in the Aid Another action about helping allies affected by spells mean? Note that the way you rewrote Aid Allies isn't necessarily equivalent either; it is not clear if Aid Allies gives a +3 bonus when you use the Aid Another action, or if it changes the bonus Aid Another gives to be +3 instead of +2 (the third unclear thing that came up...).

I will point out that the ability to Aid Another on reflex saves by default has almost no impact on the power or utility of vanguard style. The important part of vanguard style isn't that it lets you Aid on reflex saves, it is that it changes the action you need to spend to do it from a standard action to an AOO. The situations where the best thing you can do with your standard action for a round is to Aid Another someone's reflex save are going to be almost nonexistent, even if that is legal (which I agree is...unclear at best).

Also, while definitely a hit to bodyguard's functionality, I think it still has pretty decent uses. My personal plan for the character I am building with the feat is to combo it with getting Step Up on my mount so I can keep adjacent when someone 5 ft. steps, and I intend to get an Arrow Catching tower shield so people next to me can't be targeted with arrows anyway.


7thgate

If you're mounted, get a lance and a shield. You now cover both melee and 10 feet out to threaten for bodyguard.

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
it lets you use Aid Another to increase an Ally's Reflex Save. You have to be adjacent to your Ally and Threatening your Ally's Attacker.

There is NO rules support, at all, for this position. Your reflex save is neither AC nor to hit, which are the only aid another options that require that you threaten.

It's not the RAW because skill checks have their own exception, and their own section.

Dude, you are trying way too hard to poke holes in Vanguard Style. If you take off your cynicism pants and approach it as an ability that could work in some way, it's pretty easy to see that it does, in fact, work.

Maybe take a step back and re-evaluate how you are approaching this.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

7thgate

If you're mounted, get a lance and a shield. You now cover both melee and 10 feet out to threaten for bodyguard.

True, that would also work, and is probably generically better advice for bodyguarding than what I am doing. Bodyguard is going to be my secondary method of defending someone, for those cases where I need my standard action for something offensive or during the level range I don't have my feats all lined up yet. My primary method is going to be using a standard to readied action a Total Defense for Covering Defense when someone gets attacked near me, for between +6 and +10 AC, and move action Aid Another + Swift Action Aid Another to hand out an extra +5 to +11 AC preemptively.

I went with a tower shield because I don't really intend to attack most of the time, so the tohit isn't super relevant, and it gives both myself and my mount an extra +2 AC, as well as whoever I cover with Covering Defense, and means I don't have to worry about running into arrows with a high enough bonus to bypass the Arrow Catching enchantment on my shield.

Also, step up/following step on the mount means my horse can also get in position to use bodyguard, for an additional +2 to +7.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
it lets you use Aid Another to increase an Ally's Reflex Save. You have to be adjacent to your Ally and Threatening your Ally's Attacker.

I am probably mistaken about having to be adjacent to your ally. Bodyguard requires you to be adjacent to ally, and Bodyguard is a prerequisite for Vanguard Style. But Vanguard Style does not specify that you either need to be adjacent to your ally or that you are actually using Bodyguard. Still, there is evidence here to suggest that is the intent of the rules.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
There is NO rules support, at all, for this position. Your reflex save is neither AC nor to hit, which are the only aid another options that require that you threaten.

Your statement is absolutely and obviously false. I am surprised you are even making this statement.

Vanguard Style wrote:
attempt the aid another action

Vanguard Style says you are using Aid Another to improve your ally's Reflex Save.

Aid Another wrote:
If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent

Vanguard Style says you are using Aid Another. Aid Another says that you have to be Threatening your Ally's attacker. It's right there, plain as day. Why are you even making this argument?

Yes, it is RAW.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
It's not the rai

How do you know what RAI is? Who are you? This is where I get my insight into RAW in this matter.

Bodyguard FAQ wrote:
You still need to fulfill all requirements of aid another, including threatening the attacking enemy.

The trend I recognize is that Feats that say they use Aid Another are meant to use Aid Another. The trend I see is that Paizo takes the bother to update the Rules as Written to put them in line with what they intended. The only reason to do this is if their intention is that the Rules as Written be followed.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
It's not balanced.

I don't care. It is for Paizo to read your complaints and edit the rules to preserve game balance.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
There's no reason to rule that way.

Except for what the rules say. If your intention is to ignore the rules anyway, just go your own way.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

"Excuse me sir, why are you holding that dagger and advancing on the king?

"OH! I just need to aid my friends diplomacy check and i can't do that without threatening.

Irrelevant: using Aid Another to improve a skill check has nothing to do with the Aid Another Special Attack. Why are you even taling about this?


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

"Excuse me sir, why are you holding that dagger and advancing on the king?

"OH! I just need to aid my friends diplomacy check and i can't do that without threatening.

Irrelevant: using Aid Another to improve a skill check has nothing to do with the Aid Another Special Attack. Why are you even taling about this?

Probably because it makes as much sense as the Secret Service agent having to wait till the assassin puts the gun against the President's head before they can take the bullet for them.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Aid Another says that you have to be Threatening your Ally's attacker.

It does not. Please quote the rules you think say that. You're conflating the idea that some uses of aid another require threatening with all uses of aid another require threatening.

It says you have to be threatening the ally's attacker when you aid their AC or hit rolls. Bodyguard, since you are aiding their ac, retains that requirement. Since aiding someone's reflex save is neither their ac nor attack, that requirement does not apply.


_Ozy_ wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
I'm just saying that there are no rules mechanisms anywhere for boosting saving throws, outside the vanguard style.

There aren't really any 'rules mechanisms' for it in Vanguard Style either... just the statement that you can use an AoO to do it and that the bonus is +2.

Also, the Order of the Dragon Cavalier 'Aid Allies' ability increases aid another bonuses... specifically including those to saving throw checks.

We could assume that aid another for saving throws follows standard conventions (e.g. make a save yourself at DC 10), but aid another is usually a standard action you have to perform BEFORE the check to be aided... and you usually don't know in advance that your ally is about to need to make a saving throw.

Vanguard Style takes care of that by allowing the aid as an immediate action, but it doesn't explain the Cavalier ability or the reference to aiding against spells in the CRB.

You can use AoO to ATTEMPT it. So, what does it mean to attempt? You make the assumption that the person has to make a DC10 reflex save of his own to aid his companion, but I'm not sure that makes any sense at all, nor is it supported by any of the aid another mechanics, unlike the bodyguard feat.

Also, maybe you didn't mean this specifically, but AoOs are not 'immediate actions'.

Well, Vanguard Style says you are using Aid Another. Aid Another says you make an Attack Roll against AC 10 target at your Ally's Attacker.

The Cavalier Order of the Dragon Ability also says you are using Aid Another, so Attack Roll vs. AC 10.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

"Excuse me sir, why are you holding that dagger and advancing on the king?

"OH! I just need to aid my friends diplomacy check and i can't do that without threatening.

Irrelevant: using Aid Another to improve a skill check has nothing to do with the Aid Another Special Attack. Why are you even talking about this?

By your logic, all uses of aid another require that you threaten.

Because the aid another description in the skill chapter does not mention range at all, that limitation would still apply.

So you'd need to threaten the king to aid your friends diplomacy check.

On the other hand, if you consider the aid another threatening require to apply only to the attacks and AC, because that's the paragraph that the clause is in, you can sensibly aid the diplomacy check at a more reasonable distance.

And with your silverware where it belongs.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Aid Another says you make an Attack Roll against AC 10 target at your Ally's Attacker.

... when aiding armor class or to hit. Not all uses of aid another.


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silverrey wrote:


Probably because it makes as much sense as the Secret Service agent having to wait till the assassin puts the gun against the President's head before they can take the bullet for them.

Cover bonus with the DM using the "see what the projectile hit" rules?

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Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Vanguard Style says you are using Aid Another to improve your ally's Reflex Save.

Aid Another wrote:
If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn.

Vanguard Style says you are using Aid Another. Aid Another says that you have to be Threatening your Ally's attacker. It's right there, plain as day. Why are you even making this argument?

Yes, it is RAW.

That's one use of Aid Another. There is another.

Aid Another wrote:
You can help someone achieve success on a check by making the same kind of check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check.

Only the version to aid attack and AC has the threatening requirement.

Quote:
Bodyguard FAQ wrote:
You still need to fulfill all requirements of aid another, including threatening the attacking enemy.
The trend I recognize is that Feats that say they use Aid Another are meant to use Aid Another. The trend I see is that Paizo takes the bother to update the Rules as Written to put them in line with what they intended. The only reason to do this is if their intention is that the Rules as Written be followed.

Aid Another has specific rules that make sense. If you aid an ally against a specific opponent's attack, you have to be threatening that opponent. If you are aiding them against a skill or save DC, there is not necessarily an opponent that you could target.

You keep adding things to the rules that are not there. Bodyguard references Aiding AC, Vanguard Style uses the rules for Aiding a check. They are different, so don't keep treating them the same.


Reading through, I think the real issue is that we don't have rules for what you roll against when using Vanguard Style.

Quote:
You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character's skill check.

So, in this sentence, aiding against spells is packaged along with aiding a skill check, so we can be a little sure we aren't supposed to be using the limitations from aiding attack and AC. To aid a skill check, you roll against DC 10 on a skill check. But to aid for or against an attack, you roll an attack against AC 10......

So, to aid on reflex, would you roll a reflex against DC 10? Because every other aid another action requires a roll related to what you are aiding for/against.


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Melkiador wrote:

So, to aid on reflex, would you roll a reflex against DC 10?

Sure. Why not. You have to time jumping in front of the fireball just right, it would make sense

And before people try to steer that into the "there's no objective answer so it gets nullseterrordoesnotcompute in pfs"

How are badly written rules handled in society play


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Aid Another says that you have to be Threatening your Ally's attacker.
It does not. Please quote the rules you think say that.

Yes, it does.

Core Rulebook, Combat, Special Attacks, Aid Another

Core Rulebook, Combat, Special Attacks, Aid Another wrote:
If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent

In other words, Threatening.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
You're conflating the idea that some uses of aid another require threatening with all uses of aid another require threatening.

Not all uses of Aid Another, just Aid Another in Combat. We are talking about Combat. I think that is the rules as intended: Vangaurd Style is a Combat Feat. I do suppose they are referring to Aid Another as described in the Combat section of the Core Rulebook. That seems like a very reasonable supposition. Can you demonstrate that Vanguard Style is referring to the other Aid Another?

BigNorseWolf wrote:
[Aid Another] says you have to be threatening the ally's attacker when you aid their AC or hit rolls. Bodyguard, since you are aiding their ac, retains that requirement. Since aiding someone's reflex save is neither their ac nor attack, that requirement does not apply.

Feats only do what they say they do. Vanguard Style only says you get to use Aid Another to improve allies' Reflex Saves: it doesn't change anything else about how Aid Another works. Aid Another, as described in the Combat section of the Core Rulebook, says you have to be threatening your ally's Attacker.

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Melkiador wrote:

So, to aid on reflex, would you roll a reflex against DC 10?

Sure. Why not. You have to time jumping in front of the fireball just right, it would make sense

And before people try to steer that into the "there's no objective answer so it gets nullseterrordoesnotcompute in pfs"

How are badly written rules handled in society play

Compton wrote:
I find it helps if both sides approach the matter with a positive attitude, willingness to be flexible, and an understanding that compromise might be necessary. I like to approach these messageboards in the same way.

It is amazing what a positive attitude, some flexibility, and commitment to a reasonable approach to the rules can achieve.

Grand Lodge

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


@ Doomed Hero: That's already a listed requirement for Aid Another, no matter how you plan to do it. The problem isn't being adjacent to an ally, the problem is having to be adjacent to an enemy as well, which is, in my opinion, quite stupid, doubly so for improving an ally's AC.

Actually it doesn't say that you have to be adjacent to the enemy... it states that you have to threaten them. There is a fine difference, especially when it comes to reach weapons. I can threaten the enemy from BEHIND my ally is my reach will still hit the enemy. I am not adjacent to the enemy, but I still meet the requirements of aid another.


The sad thing is that Vanguard Style is from a Player Companion, so the odds of getting any official clarification on this are only slightly above 0%.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:


Core Rulebook, Combat, Special Attacks, Aid Another wrote:

If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent

Context is a thing.

That line is an entire very long paragraph away from helping people with spells.

I realize that you're reading it as applying to the next paragraph, but it doesn't look like it applies. Once you realize thar raw can mean more than one thing other interpretations are possible. Of the possible interpretations, your reading is the least likely meaning of it.

2) Why wouldn't you just add aiding with spells to the list up top rather than starting a brand new paragraph for it?

3) by that argument the clause would still apply to skills, which would be silly.

But that isn't how you read rules. You have YOUR reading and that is THE reading. Nothing else enters into it for you. You conflate your reading of the rules with the rules and it's a big reason why you keep running into "changes" whenever they clarify things.

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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
[Aid Another] says you have to be threatening the ally's attacker when you aid their AC or hit rolls. Bodyguard, since you are aiding their ac, retains that requirement. Since aiding someone's reflex save is neither their ac nor attack, that requirement does not apply.
Feats only do what they say they do. Vanguard Style only says you get to use Aid Another to improve allies' Reflex Saves: it doesn't change anything else about how Aid Another works. Aid Another, as described in the Combat section of the Core Rulebook, says you have to be threatening your ally's Attacker.

There is our fundamental disagreement. The Combat chapter is not the only Aid Another rulestext that is relevant in combat. You can aid a friend's Bluff to feint, you can aid a friend's Intimidate to demoralize, you could aid an Acrobatics check, or a Climb check or a Swim check in combat. For most of those, you don't have to threaten any target (some skills might specify otherwise).

When you aid attack, AC, CMB, or CMD, you have a specific opponent to target, and must threaten that target. That is, you must be able to make an attack against someone in order to aid on an attack against or from that target. Similarly, you might have to threaten a target to aid a check to feint a target, because feint usually refers to melee attacks.

Between the two, Aiding a saving throw is much more similar to a skill check than it is an attack roll. Forcing yourself to use the attack rules instead is plainly ridiculous.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Darsol the painbringer wrote:
]It's not the RAW because skill checks have their own exception, and their own section.

Which does NOT mention range. All it does is trade the attack roll into a skill check.

Quote:
so needing an irrelevant feat like Bodyguard for a relevant ability like Vanguard Style is absolutely ridiculous.

One is using an AOO to protect your allies from an incoming sword.

The other is using your AoO to protect your allies from the incoming fireball. You do not get better thematic or mechanical links than that.

Quote:
Throws is a normal ability, that anyone can do, all this feat does is work as a "Bodyguard" feat for Saving Throws, which not only diminishes its raw power and ability

balderdash.

Aiding another is a standard action

Aiding another is a standard action

Aiding another is a standard action

That is the second time you have "forgotten" that in an attempt to find a problem with how i'm reading the rules. Changing something from a standard action (your MOST valuable resource) to an aoo (something you can easily have 6 of) is an enormous advantage. Not only have you dropped the resource requirement, but you've made aiding against a reflex saving throw actually usable, because you don't usually have a standard action at the time when you're getting hit with the fireball.

Quote:
Not the point I was trying to make, but merely an interesting observation when taking your interpretation

It's not interesting. It's banal, contrived, factually incorrect and outright tiresome.

Quote:

At 2nd level, whenever an order of the dragon cavalier uses the aid another action to assist one of his allies, the ally receives a +3 bonus to his Armor Class, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. At 8th level, and every six levels thereafter, this bonus increases by an additional +1.

Quote:
Would be pointlessly redundant.If anything, all that text would have to say is this:
And that would run the risk...

You're right, it doesn't mention range. So then that means I can be half-way across Golarion and decide "Hey, this poor sap wants some help with a Diplomacy check to get a date with this random woman, I should totally help him out!" Because there's no range to aid another, just like how there is no range for Diplomacy itself.

You just admitted yourself that aiding for Saves and Skills versus AC and to-hit have completely different mechanics, even if they serve a similar purpose. There are hardly any more mechanical links between those two feats than there is Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, and last I checked, thematics (such as flavor text) are usually trumped by the mechanics themselves, with no indication of this being any different.

Repeating what I already know doesn't change the fact that its unique ability to aid something (that normally shouldn't be aided) is effectively reduced to Bodyguard level, instead of being able to grant what would be a more unique ability of aiding an attribute that normally cannot be aided. Does that make it bad? Not necessarily. But being able to aid an attribute that normally cannot be aided is, in and of itself, a unique ability; all the feat does then, is improve what someone can already do (according to your interpretation), which is Aid Saves in a manner that you normally can't do. The other interpretation does the same thing, except more, because it gives you a whole other option that normally isn't available to you, the ability to aid Reflex Saves.

And you still haven't answered my question: How do you Aid a Saving Throw? To be more clear about the answers I'm looking for, what's involved? Do I need to make a check? What do I use for bonuses, if anything? What conditions do I have to fulfill to perform it?

Until I get your stance on that question, all we're going to do is just use fancy words to insult each other until the mods come in and put us in time out, and quite frankly, I don't even know what your stance is anymore, because it's changed so much from what we've originally argued.

@ KingofAnything: I'm not trying to poke holes in anything. All I'm doing is saying that they're there. If they can't see it, then fine. But if you haven't noticed, I'm not the only one who's remarked with questions about this subject in regards to how it operates, so clearly, this isn't something that is just "my issue".

Liberty's Edge

Anyone have the older version rulebooks on hand? I can check tonight if not, but I think that, "such as when he is affected by a spell" wording was in v3.

Could the seemingly missing rules for aid another on saving throws be in an old PHB?

In any case... there are clearly two abilities which assume the existence of 'aid on saves' rules which can't actually be found anywhere. Ergo, what we have is a FAQ in need of errata.


silverrey wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

"Excuse me sir, why are you holding that dagger and advancing on the king?

"OH! I just need to aid my friends diplomacy check and i can't do that without threatening.

Irrelevant: using Aid Another to improve a skill check has nothing to do with the Aid Another Special Attack. Why are you even taling about this?
Probably because it makes as much sense as the Secret Service agent having to wait till the assassin puts the gun against the President's head before they can take the bullet for them.

Not bad bit of apologism. It's still a poor example.

Vanguard Style is describing a Secret Service Agent who reaches the suspiciously-acting Wizard and uses Vanguard Style to use an Attack of Opportunity to Aid Another, improving the politician's Reflex Save by interfering with the Wizard's use of his Wand of Fireballs.

And again, I see it this way because Reflex Saves are usually a Combat thing. Vanguard Style is a Combat Feat. It lists Bodyguard as a Prerequisite, which is another Combat Feat, and its wording is similar to Bodyguard. So that really seems to point to Aid Another as described in the Combat Section of the Core Rulebook, which requires you Threaten your opponent.

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Darksol wrote:

And you still haven't answered my question: How do you Aid a Saving Throw? To be more clear about the answers I'm looking for, what's involved? Do I need to make a check? What do I use for bonuses, if anything? What conditions do I have to fulfill to perform it?

Until I get your stance on that question, all we're going to do is just use fancy words to insult each other until the mods come in and put us in time out, and quite frankly, I don't even know what your stance is anymore, because it's changed so much from what we've originally argued.

Just because you have questions, doesn't mean there aren't answers.

How I see it, and how I think BigNorseWolf would rule as well: You make the same kind of check, with whatever bonuses you normally apply, against a DC 10. You must be adjacent to an ally to aid them.

How and why would you rule at your table?

Aside:

Sorry, I was kind of tone policing. I found your attitude incredibly negative, and was hoping you could be persuaded to view your issues differently. Let me try again. What is your most optimistic interpretation for how Vanguard Style works?

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
You just admitted yourself that aiding for Saves and Skills versus AC and to-hit have completely different mechanics, even if they serve a similar purpose. There are hardly any more mechanical links between those two feats than there is Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, and last I checked, thematics (such as flavor text) are usually trumped by the mechanics themselves, with no indication of this being any different.

Vanguard Style improves upon Bodyguard by:

1. Allowing AoOs to aid saves
2. Keep you useful when you aren't threatening enemies.

Clarifying how Bodyguard works is only underlining the utility of Vanguard Style.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
But that isn't how you read rules. You have YOUR reading and that is THE reading. Nothing else enters into it for you. You conflate your reading of the rules with the rules and it's a big reason why you keep running into "changes" whenever they clarify things.

That's completely unfair. I am perfectly willing to have my evidence examined. I really don't have much tolerance for my person being examined, though. Rather than cast aspersions upon my character, why not just examine the section of the rules I am referring to and bring further evidence to support your point. It seems to me that one starts casting aspersions when they know they have no more evidence to bring, that personal remarks are an admission of defeat.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
2) Why wouldn't you just add aiding with spells to the list up top rather than starting a brand new paragraph for it?

I can only speculate as to why Paizo elected to do paragraph and page orgainization. But let's look at what I think you are referring to.

Core Rulebook, Combat, Special Attacks, Aid Another wrote:
You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character's skill check.

Which Standard Action? There is only one Standard Action described in the description of Aid Another in the Special Attacks Section of the Combat Section of the Core Rulebook.

Core Rulebook, Combat, Special Attacks, Aid Another wrote:
If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
silverrey wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

"Excuse me sir, why are you holding that dagger and advancing on the king?

"OH! I just need to aid my friends diplomacy check and i can't do that without threatening.

Irrelevant: using Aid Another to improve a skill check has nothing to do with the Aid Another Special Attack. Why are you even taling about this?
Probably because it makes as much sense as the Secret Service agent having to wait till the assassin puts the gun against the President's head before they can take the bullet for them.

Not bad bit of apologism. It's still a poor example.

Vanguard Style is describing a Secret Service Agent who reaches the suspiciously-acting Wizard and uses Vanguard Style to use an Attack of Opportunity to Aid Another, improving the politician's Reflex Save by interfering with the Wizard's use of his Wand of Fireballs.

And again, I see it this way because Reflex Saves are usually a Combat thing. Vanguard Style is a Combat Feat. It lists Bodyguard as a Prerequisite, which is another Combat Feat, and its wording is similar to Bodyguard. So that really seems to point to Aid Another as described in the Combat Section of the Core Rulebook, which requires you Threaten your opponent.

I think this is the heart of the issue. What you described is what I would say is Aid Another, no question, but not what Bodyguard is. Aid Another is the extra advice, shouted warning, minor disruption. Where Bodyguard and Vanguard is throwing yourself on top of an ally to protect them from a blast, taking the bullet/arrow for them, standing in front of the wave of fire to create a safe space behind you. Yes the second is derived from the first but they are on completely different scales and have a different focus. The FAQ works for the first but makes the second impossible.

Slightly aside but what wizard is going to use a Fireball when they would still be in the blast?


KingOfAnything wrote:
Darksol wrote:

And you still haven't answered my question: How do you Aid a Saving Throw? To be more clear about the answers I'm looking for, what's involved? Do I need to make a check? What do I use for bonuses, if anything? What conditions do I have to fulfill to perform it?

Until I get your stance on that question, all we're going to do is just use fancy words to insult each other until the mods come in and put us in time out, and quite frankly, I don't even know what your stance is anymore, because it's changed so much from what we've originally argued.

Just because you have questions, doesn't mean there aren't answers.

How I see it, and how I think BigNorseWolf would rule as well: You make the same kind of check, with whatever bonuses you normally apply, against a DC 10. You must be adjacent to an ally to aid them.

How and why would you rule at your table?

** spoiler omitted **

Which is all fine and dandy and sensible, and would probably be how our table would run it.

But my point has always been, that conclusion can't be feasibly reached by adhering to the rules text; it requires FIAT adjudication outside what the rules say, as it would, for example, with the Dead condition, Overrun rules, and so on. And not every table has the same (or similar) set of FIAT adjudication.

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silverrey wrote:

What you described is what I would say is Aid Another, no question, but not what Bodyguard is. Aid Another is the extra advice, shouted warning, minor disruption. Where Bodyguard and Vanguard is throwing yourself on top of an ally to protect them from a blast, taking the bullet/arrow for them, standing in front of the wave of fire to create a safe space behind you. Yes the second is derived from the first but they are on completely different scales and have a different focus. The FAQ works for the first but makes the second impossible.

Slightly aside but what wizard is going to use a Fireball when they would still be in the blast?

Ridiculous conclusions can be a sign for two things. 1. The rules are bad or don't make sense; or 2. You are doing something wrong in your interpretation of the rules.

The FAQ makes sense in the context of Bodyguard. It is ridiculous to apply the FAQ logic to Vanguard Style.

Liberty's Edge

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Which is all fine and dandy and sensible, and would probably be how our table would run it.

But my point has always been, that conclusion can't be feasibly reached by adhering to the rules text; it requires FIAT adjudication outside what the rules say, as it would, for example, with the Dead condition, Overrun rules, and so on. And not every table has the same (or similar) set of FIAT adjudication.

So... your point is that Pathfinder is a RPG and has the same kind of gaps and limitations, requiring GM adjudication, as every other RPG that ever has been or ever will be created?

I agree.

Also, the Earth is round.


KingOfAnything wrote:
silverrey wrote:

What you described is what I would say is Aid Another, no question, but not what Bodyguard is. Aid Another is the extra advice, shouted warning, minor disruption. Where Bodyguard and Vanguard is throwing yourself on top of an ally to protect them from a blast, taking the bullet/arrow for them, standing in front of the wave of fire to create a safe space behind you. Yes the second is derived from the first but they are on completely different scales and have a different focus. The FAQ works for the first but makes the second impossible.

Slightly aside but what wizard is going to use a Fireball when they would still be in the blast?

Ridiculous conclusions can be a sign for two things. 1. The rules are bad or don't make sense; or 2. You are doing something wrong in your interpretation of the rules.

The FAQ makes sense in the context of Bodyguard. It is ridiculous to apply the FAQ logic to Vanguard Style.

Fair enough. The name "Bodyguard" carries a specific set of images, at least to me. If you are a Bodyguard your job is to make yourself a bigger target than the person you are guarding and when things go bad you put yourself between it and the person your guarding. Only helping against threats that are within 10 feet and ignoring everything else doesn't really fit the image of a Bodyguard.

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silverrey wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
silverrey wrote:

What you described is what I would say is Aid Another, no question, but not what Bodyguard is. Aid Another is the extra advice, shouted warning, minor disruption. Where Bodyguard and Vanguard is throwing yourself on top of an ally to protect them from a blast, taking the bullet/arrow for them, standing in front of the wave of fire to create a safe space behind you. Yes the second is derived from the first but they are on completely different scales and have a different focus. The FAQ works for the first but makes the second impossible.

Slightly aside but what wizard is going to use a Fireball when they would still be in the blast?

Ridiculous conclusions can be a sign for two things. 1. The rules are bad or don't make sense; or 2. You are doing something wrong in your interpretation of the rules.

The FAQ makes sense in the context of Bodyguard. It is ridiculous to apply the FAQ logic to Vanguard Style.

Fair enough. The name "Bodyguard" carries a specific set of images, at least to me. If you are a Bodyguard your job is to make yourself a bigger target than the person you are guarding and when things go bad you put yourself between it and the person your guarding. Only helping against threats that are within 10 feet and ignoring everything else doesn't really fit the image of a Bodyguard.

I get that. But, I also think it is a more modern idea of a Bodyguard. In another sense, a Bodyguard is someone that prevents you from being knifed in the back, or flanked, or run through. Their concerns are more immediate. And as BigNorseWolf pointed out, any bodyguard is just fine at providing cover.


KingOfAnything wrote:
silverrey wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
silverrey wrote:

What you described is what I would say is Aid Another, no question, but not what Bodyguard is. Aid Another is the extra advice, shouted warning, minor disruption. Where Bodyguard and Vanguard is throwing yourself on top of an ally to protect them from a blast, taking the bullet/arrow for them, standing in front of the wave of fire to create a safe space behind you. Yes the second is derived from the first but they are on completely different scales and have a different focus. The FAQ works for the first but makes the second impossible.

Slightly aside but what wizard is going to use a Fireball when they would still be in the blast?

Ridiculous conclusions can be a sign for two things. 1. The rules are bad or don't make sense; or 2. You are doing something wrong in your interpretation of the rules.

The FAQ makes sense in the context of Bodyguard. It is ridiculous to apply the FAQ logic to Vanguard Style.

Fair enough. The name "Bodyguard" carries a specific set of images, at least to me. If you are a Bodyguard your job is to make yourself a bigger target than the person you are guarding and when things go bad you put yourself between it and the person your guarding. Only helping against threats that are within 10 feet and ignoring everything else doesn't really fit the image of a Bodyguard.
I get that. But, I also think it is a more modern idea of a Bodyguard. In another sense, a Bodyguard is someone that prevents you from being knifed in the back, or flanked, or run through. Their concerns are more immediate. And as BigNorseWolf pointed out, any bodyguard is just fine at providing cover.

Well, Vanguard Style doesn't actually say you are using Bodyguard when you use Vanguard Style. It's like Bodyguard in a lot of ways, and Bodyguard is a Prerequisite. But Vanguard Style does not specify that you have to be adjacent to your ally when you use it. It does still say you are using Aid Another, and Aid Another, as described in the Combat Section of the Core Rulebook, says you have to be Threatening your Opponent.

So, you actually could use Vanguard Style to protect your allies from Fireballs. Although I feel compelled to point out that I wasn't the one who brought Fireball into this discussion.


KingOfAnything wrote:


I get that. But, I also think it is a more modern idea of a Bodyguard. In another sense, a Bodyguard is someone that prevents you from being knifed in the back, or flanked, or run through. Their concerns are more immediate. And as BigNorseWolf pointed out, any bodyguard is just fine at providing cover.

Following that. The shouted warning "Behind you!" by the rules doesn't work either which doesn't feel right. Still, I think the issue is mechanics not seeming to fit the fluff at least for me, and I imagine some of those disappointed in the ruling. Kind of like a class called "Mage" that only cast divine spells. Mechanically it works but doesn't feel like it fits it's name.


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:


That's completely unfair. I am perfectly willing to have my evidence examined. I really don't have much tolerance for my person being examined, though. Rather than cast aspersions upon my character, why not just examine the section of the rules I am referring to and bring further evidence to support your point.

In a rules discussion the evidence is the rules themselves. Now every once in a while you can find a citation somewhere else or some other weird ability that sheds light on it, but by and large we're looking at the same evidence and drawing different conclusions. Someone's interpretation of the evidence is at the heart of almost every rules discussion and you are treating a different interpretation of them as a difference with the rules themselves. That does not work either as a discussion or as a means of getting the right answer. What happens when you do that is you see contradictions in the text rather than arrows saying "wrong way"

Quote:
I can only speculate as to why Paizo elected to do paragraph and page orgainization.

You can do more than that.

It might give you hints as to which interpretation you should go with, help you compare different possible interpretations, or rule something out. It's far from objective but that doesn't mean it isn't valuable or even necessary.

Quote:
Which Standard Action? There is only one Standard Action described in the description of Aid Another in the Special Attacks Section of the Combat Section of the Core Rulebook.

But it obviously doesn't follow all of the same rules for all of the different uses. So how do you end up applying the threatening rule for aiding ac to helping someone with a spell?

Core Rulebook, Combat, Special Attacks, Aid Another wrote:
If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action.

So why don't i need to threaten the king with silverware to aid my friends diplomacy? The aid another in the skills chapter doesn't remove that requirement.

I believe that "You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character's skill check" is it's own paragraph because it runs on it's own rules set.

This is A legitimate way to read the raw: New paragraphs denote new ideas.

This is probably the best legitimate way to read the raw: Applying everything from the previous paragraph into the next one gets more than a little silly, such as requiring an attack against ac 10 to help someone's skill check.

It doesn't break anything: Despite people REALLY trying, this interpretation doesn't break when it's used. It's consistent and coherent. Trying to require people to be adjacent to the caster to aid against a spell is silly, immersion breaking, and nonsensical. It renders vanguard style non functional. There's been no legitimate problems pointed out with this reading.. at all.

Those are all valuable and necessary points of evidence for an interpretation. You cannot simply stop at one idea of the raw and call it a day.

Sczarni

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CBDunkerson wrote:
Also, the Earth is round.

I'm sorry, that statement is going to require its own clarification thread.

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Nefreet wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Also, the Earth is round.
I'm sorry, that statement is going to require its own clarification thread.

I'm sorry, but the dictionary defines "round" as being shaped like a sphere. The Earth is clearly oblong, and therefore ovoid, not round.

Liberty's Edge

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KingOfAnything wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Also, the Earth is round.
I'm sorry, that statement is going to require its own clarification thread.
I'm sorry, but the dictionary defines "round" as being shaped like a sphere. The Earth is clearly oblong, and therefore ovoid, not round.

Objection!

Round is also defined as being shaped approximately like a sphere. Spheres and ovoids are thus, BOTH 'round'.

That said, I have also seen the Earth described as being "pear shaped". Which is interesting, as 'having gone pear shaped' is idiomatic usage for something having gone terribly wrong.

By the transitive subjunctive property of rules interpretation I am thus forced to conclude that the entire Earth has gone disastrously wrong.

We should start over and try again.

Sczarni

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I disagree.

A round is only six seconds long.


Clarification from BNW: to use vanguard style or add to a saving throw do you need to be near the ally? How near?


Del_Taco_Eater wrote:
Clarification from BNW: to use vanguard style or add to a saving throw do you need to be near the ally? How near?
Vanguard Style wrote:
While using this style, when an adjacent ally is required to make a Reflex saving throw, you can expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s Reflex save. Your ally gains a +2 bonus to all Reflex saves while adjacent to you until the beginning of your next turn.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Del_Taco_Eater wrote:
Clarification from BNW: to use vanguard style or add to a saving throw do you need to be near the ally? How near?
Vanguard Style wrote:
While using this style, when an adjacent ally is required to make a Reflex saving throw, you can expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s Reflex save. Your ally gains a +2 bonus to all Reflex saves while adjacent to you until the beginning of your next turn.

O, duh, still need clarification on aid another however.


Del_Taco_Eater wrote:
Clarification from BNW: to use vanguard style or add to a saving throw do you need to be near the ally? How near?

Vanguard style is explicitly adjacent.

For aiding on other spells I would say it would depend on the spell and what you were doing. You probably need to be adjacent to save someone from a fireball (though why you're standing there with a standard action up your sleeve i have no idea). For trying to snap someone out of a dominate person ... conversation range? Hold person would probably be adjacent.. or maybe reach if you want to smack them around with your polearm a bit. Probably adjacent for most fort saves.


Sorry, man, you're just inventing mechanics here. There is nothing to support boosting someone's save with a normal aid another action.

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Aid Another wrote:
You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character's skill check.

Something is not nothing.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Sorry, man, you're just inventing mechanics here. There is hardly anything to support boosting someone's save with a normal aid another action.

FTFY.


Soooo.... Which post should be the new FAQ tag soak, or does someone want to compile the issues and hope for round 2 some day?

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