Online play and custom Chronicle sheets


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The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Patrick,

I am amazed that, in a thread which Mike began, explaining that do-it-yourself Chronicle sheets are not valid, you have the gumption to call anybody who follows that directive "insane". I've just got to shake my head, dude.

--

BigNorseWolf, time is a different kind of resource in on-line games.

5/5

Chris Mortika wrote:

Patrick,

I am amazed that, in a thread which Mike began, explaining that do-it-yourself Chronicle sheets are not valid, you have the gumption to call anybody who follows that directive "insane". I've just got to shake my head, dude.

C'mon, dude, that's a pretty flagrant mischaracterization of my statement, considering I've already voiced my bafflement that people were making their own sheets in the first place.

In this case, I'm calling insane people who would consider "correcting a typo" the same as a "do-it-yourself Chronicle sheet."

Edit: But just to be safe, I've edited my original post to make that crystal clear.

Edit edit: To put it another way, "The leadership of this organized play community assumes that you will use common sense in your interpretation of the rules."

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1) I apologize for the mischaracterization.

2) I probably wouldn't notice the change, either, unless it was pointed out to me. Also, a couple of Season 0 chronicles had some pretty serious mis-spellings. (Slave Pitts of Absalom, for example.)

3) Excepting the mistakes that people are making, as Mike noted, the intent was to make Chronicle sheets that had no changes at all, except cosmetic / formatting ones. Mike didn't invalidate only those Chronicles that included inadvertent mistakes; he invalidated all of them.

Does the "Rescue on Azlant Ridge" count in there? So far as I can tell, yeah, it's been altered.

If you think that Mike intended to invalidate a Chronicle that had only formatting changes, but didn't intend to include the "Azlant Ridge" Chronicle, what do you think was the rule Mike really wanted to impose, instead of "none of these count"?

5/5

Chris Mortika wrote:
1) I apologize for the mischaracterization.

I found your use of the word "dude" fairly disarming, so I didn't actually take offense. (Also hence my use in response.) But I am apparently not terribly precise in my wording here, considering how often I'm misinterpreted, so I was worried that people would be reading my statement that way, which would make me look like an ass.

Not that I didn't already, but in a specific way. Which is to say, I prefer to do it on purpose. ;p

Quote:
If you think that Mike intended to invalidate a Chronicle that had only formatting changes, but didn't intend to include the "Azlant Ridge" Chronicle, what do you think was the rule Mike really wanted to impose, instead of "none of these count"?

There is where I'd invoke the common sense rules. The concern cited by Mike is that people were making new Chronicles, which involved transferring all the information. "People are adding wrong items, incorrect prices for items, boons that are from the wrong tier, et cetera." These are not going to come up during the correcting of that typo, unless the person making the correcting decided to go about it the hardest way possible.

There's a world of difference between a player sitting down with a homemade chronicle sheet, and a player sitting down with a typo corrected.

Edit: Consider the hardcopy equivalent. If someone sat down with a chronicle written entirely in pencil, I'd refuse it in a heartbeat. If someone sat down with the Azlant Ridge chronicle and the "I:" was whited out and replaced with "II:" I'd have no problem with that. (I'd find it quite amusing, actually.)

4/5

I don't really see how this applies to online play. Besides the fact that certain GMs/groups were the ones issuing these chronicles.

Really this is a very simple thing. Campaign leadership has said not to create your own chronicle sheets. Use whats in the back of the scenario, period…

EDIT: It isn't a worthless rule, its campaign leadership stating that what is in the scenario, for better or worse, is whats to be used. This goes for encounters, tactics, DCs, and chronicle sheets.

5/5

I would like to think that the problem here is that the chronicles are incorrect, not that they are 'custom'.

Seriously, we can all agree that chronicle sheets should be correct.

What's the point of this 'rule'?

Honestly, stop wasting everyone's time making pointless rules.

5/5

Mekkis wrote:

I would like to think that the problem here is that the chronicles are incorrect, not that they are 'custom'.

Seriously, we can all agree that chronicle sheets should be correct.

What's the point of this 'rule'?

Honestly, stop wasting everyone's time making pointless rules.

I don't think it is a new rule. I think it's leadership pointing out that people have stopped following an old (and arguably fundamental) rule.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

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Mekkis wrote:

I would like to think that the problem here is that the chronicles are incorrect, not that they are 'custom'.

Seriously, we can all agree that chronicle sheets should be correct.

What's the point of this 'rule'?

Honestly, stop wasting everyone's time making pointless rules.

I'm sorry that you either misread the intent of the original post or are having a bad day. When people are adding or adjusting magic items, changing charged items from a limit to one to unlimited, or are changing or adding boons not available to a normal chronicle sheet, there is a problem.

If you feel this is a waste of time, perhaps you need to take some time away from the OP.

And your comment about "stop making rules and make more scenarios" is a poor statement from a poster I thought highly of. You should know it takes multiple departments to produce scenarios, and me making a ruling is not going to slow down or speed up the process in anyway.

The Exchange 4/5 Owner - D20 Hobbies

Mekkis wrote:

The original had an incorrect title

missing the "TIER" markings for tier 3-4 and 6-7.

This isn't the point. This sheet was accurate and fixed errors.

The act of fixing errors is something that might be something that could be prone to errors. If you "correct" prices and make a mistake, that is what he is trying to fix. If you copy things incorrectly, that is a problem. If you use a different template, and the GM feels the sheet doesn't look authentic. You waste everyone's time to double check all is right.

In short, it is always a bad idea to make the sort of alterations that the Campaign leadership would prefer we don't make. It sounds like an issues that only came up because of errors.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
If anyone is genuinely going to audit a character in that depth, when do you get time to play?

The only way you can do audits is when helping new players on non-game nights. There is no way to do reasonable audits (IMHO) in the 15 minutes before a game. Without disrupting everyone's night. It is hard enough to finish them before a store closes if playing on a weeknight.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Also, as a GM, I don't really have a way to tell the difference between a sheet that has been reformated. and a sheet that has been modified to add items that were not on the original.

(Granted, I don't have a way to figure out if someone has expertly altered a sheet to add an extra item with a perfectly matching font and spacing, but at least the bar to fool me is set a bit higher.)

Project Manager

Please keep it civil, folks.

Grand Lodge 2/5

For the existence of the Online play and for it's continued growth this is a necessary ruling coming from Mike and the team.

For me this is very simple and is a little similar to the choice to not allow crafting within PFS. It's made because of the minority that would seek to take advantage of the situation and to maintain uniformity across a platform designed to be compatible wherever you go.

For transparencies sake I've had to have one of my online sheets reissued because of this ruling after going back and verifying all of my sheets where legal.

Another +1 here if you need someone to look over sheets etc to verify that they are in order. Contact me via PM.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

An example of a modification of a Chronicle sheet was to the scenario The Pallid Plague and was an added Boon granting access to learn Druidic as a language after a session that involved role playing with the fallen druids and trying to persuade them to teach the character the language. GMs can't just hand out mechanical benefits to characters because they think it would be a cool addition. It is an unfair advantage that many others who play through the same scenario do not receive.

5/5

What if something's been identified as a mistake by official sources, but hasn't yet been corrected? eg. Eyes of the Ten XP

5/5

Michael Brock wrote:

An example of a modification of a Chronicle sheet was to the scenario The Pallid Plague and was an added Boon granting access to learn Druidic as a language after a session that involved role playing with the fallen druids and trying to persuade them to teach the character the language. GMs can't just hand out mechanical benefits to characters because they think it would be a cool addition. It is an unfair advantage that many others who play through the same scenario do not receive.

What? That's just ... wow.

That's not about online play, though, that's just ... wow.

5/5

Patrick Harris @ MU wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:

An example of a modification of a Chronicle sheet was to the scenario The Pallid Plague and was an added Boon granting access to learn Druidic as a language after a session that involved role playing with the fallen druids and trying to persuade them to teach the character the language. GMs can't just hand out mechanical benefits to characters because they think it would be a cool addition. It is an unfair advantage that many others who play through the same scenario do not receive.

What? That's just ... wow.

That's not about online play, though, that's just ... wow.

You give people an inch.. Unfortunately, this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to things GMs modify in order to make things "better."

5/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
Patrick Harris @ MU wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:

An example of a modification of a Chronicle sheet was to the scenario The Pallid Plague and was an added Boon granting access to learn Druidic as a language after a session that involved role playing with the fallen druids and trying to persuade them to teach the character the language. GMs can't just hand out mechanical benefits to characters because they think it would be a cool addition. It is an unfair advantage that many others who play through the same scenario do not receive.

What? That's just ... wow.

That's not about online play, though, that's just ... wow.

You give people an inch.. Unfortunately, this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to things GMs modify in order to make things "better."

But the whole point of organized play is that rewards are uniform. I mean I've asked for an RP note or two on my chronicle, but those are just for amusing reference moments, and if the GM doesn't want to use one, I just move on. But Druidic? Oof!

Grand Lodge 4/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

Kyle Baird wrote:
What if something's been identified as a mistake by official sources, but hasn't yet been corrected? eg. Eyes of the Ten XP

Every time it has been identified by official sources. Such as EoT XP, I believe we've made sure to handle the clarification very publicly. Of I missed something, please let me know.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

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Patrick Harris @ MU wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
Patrick Harris @ MU wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:

An example of a modification of a Chronicle sheet was to the scenario The Pallid Plague and was an added Boon granting access to learn Druidic as a language after a session that involved role playing with the fallen druids and trying to persuade them to teach the character the language. GMs can't just hand out mechanical benefits to characters because they think it would be a cool addition. It is an unfair advantage that many others who play through the same scenario do not receive.

What? That's just ... wow.

That's not about online play, though, that's just ... wow.

You give people an inch.. Unfortunately, this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to things GMs modify in order to make things "better."
But the whole point of organized play is that rewards are uniform. I mean I've asked for an RP note or two on my chronicle, but those are just for amusing reference moments, and if the GM doesn't want to use one, I just move on. But Druidic? Oof!

When GMing, I've made RP notes before in the comments section of a chronicle sheet and there is nothing wrong with that. It makes the Chronicle sheet memorable to that player. One player will never forget the scenario where he impressed a female dwarf renting out a row boat so much, that she decided to make a memorable night for him. But, there was absolutely no mechanical benefit given. Unfortunately, the example I gave is just one of several examples I've received, and one of the least egregious.

5/5

Michael Brock wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
What if something's been identified as a mistake by official sources, but hasn't yet been corrected? eg. Eyes of the Ten XP
Every time it has been identified by official sources. Such as EoT XP, I believe we've made sure to handle the clarification very publicly. Of I missed something, please let me know.

I meant things that have been identified, but not officially updated on the official chronicle. I'm assuming those things can be modified to match the official clarification until it's changed on Paizo's end.

5/5

Michael Brock wrote:
When GMing, I've made RP notes before in the comments section of a chronicle sheet and there is nothing wrong with that. It makes the Chronicle sheet memorable to that player. One player will never forget the scenario where he impressed a female dwarf renting out a row boat so much, that she decided to make a memorable night for him. But, there was absolutely no mechanical benefit given. Unfortunately, the example I gave is just one of several examples I've received, and one of the least egregious.

It pains me to say this, but I think I'm beginning to see the value of auditing. D:

Grand Lodge 4/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

Kyle Baird wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
What if something's been identified as a mistake by official sources, but hasn't yet been corrected? eg. Eyes of the Ten XP
Every time it has been identified by official sources. Such as EoT XP, I believe we've made sure to handle the clarification very publicly. Of I missed something, please let me know.
I meant things that have been identified, but not officially updated on the official chronicle. I'm assuming those things can be modified to match the official clarification until it's changed on Paizo's end.

Correct

5/5

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Kyle Baird wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
What if something's been identified as a mistake by official sources, but hasn't yet been corrected? eg. Eyes of the Ten XP
Every time it has been identified by official sources. Such as EoT XP, I believe we've made sure to handle the clarification very publicly. Of I missed something, please let me know.
I meant things that have been identified, but not officially updated on the official chronicle. I'm assuming those things can be modified to match the official clarification until it's changed on Paizo's end.

I think the happy medium here isn't to fix the chronicle, but rather to correct it: Draw a line through the 0XP, then type in "2XP (see Guide)" next to it (or in the margins, or with an asterisk pointing to a note at the bottom, or whatever). That way it's obvious that there's been a correction, rather than just modifying the sheet.

That could work for typos, too--a GM might not want to accept an Azlant Ridge sheet with the "I" corrected to "II," but (hopefully) nobody's going to mind if the "I" is crossed out and "II" is written in next to it. It creates transparency of process.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Patrick Harris @ MU wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
When GMing, I've made RP notes before in the comments section of a chronicle sheet and there is nothing wrong with that. It makes the Chronicle sheet memorable to that player. One player will never forget the scenario where he impressed a female dwarf renting out a row boat so much, that she decided to make a memorable night for him. But, there was absolutely no mechanical benefit given. Unfortunately, the example I gave is just one of several examples I've received, and one of the least egregious.
It pains me to say this, but I think I'm beginning to see the value of auditing. D:

The problem is, if a GM doesn't know what is supposed to be on a chronicle or not, because they have not played or run that scenario. Is auditing supposed to include purchasing and looking at the actual chronicles vs. every chronicle the character has?

For a new GM, that could get expensive at level 12 as they purchase 33 scenarios.

This problem is pretty insidious, and it is pretty upsetting that there are some very unscrupulous GM's out there who think this is ok.

Heck, I've run approximately 100 different scenarios, and I'm pretty sure I couldn't tell you every thing that is supposed to go on each one without going back and looking at them.

There are some obvious things I would catch though. Like all partially charged wands have a limit of 1 purchase. I believe all poisons have a purchase limit as well.

Some boons I would catch, especially if they just seem strange (like granting the chance to learn Druidic).

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Patrick Harris @ MU wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
What if something's been identified as a mistake by official sources, but hasn't yet been corrected? eg. Eyes of the Ten XP
Every time it has been identified by official sources. Such as EoT XP, I believe we've made sure to handle the clarification very publicly. Of I missed something, please let me know.
I meant things that have been identified, but not officially updated on the official chronicle. I'm assuming those things can be modified to match the official clarification until it's changed on Paizo's end.

I think the happy medium here isn't to fix the chronicle, but rather to correct it: Draw a line through the 0XP, then type in "2XP (see Guide)" next to it (or in the margins, or with an asterisk pointing to a note at the bottom, or whatever). That way it's obvious that there's been a correction, rather than just modifying the sheet.

That could work for typos, too--a GM might not want to accept an Azlant Ridge sheet with the "I" corrected to "II," but (hopefully) nobody's going to mind if the "I" is crossed out and "II" is written in next to it. It creates transparency of process.

This is actually an extremely good idea. The problem some might cite, is that it creates an unclean look, which is why the correction would have been made in the first place.

But seeing the problem that creating modified sheets is making, I think a transparent way to correct things is a fantastic idea.

This also allows you to correct season 0 3.5 items that have changed in Pathfinder (i.e. Gauntlets of Ogre Power to a +2 Strength Belt).

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/5

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Michael Brock wrote:
One player will never forget the scenario where he impressed a female dwarf renting out a row boat so much, that she decided to make a memorable night for him.

I still have nightmares...

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
There are some obvious things I would catch though. Like all partially charged wands have a limit of 1 purchase.

This is not always true, I know of at least one chronicle sheet with a partial charged wand with no purchase limits on it. There may be more.

Though it is true for poisons. They are always limited to 3.

Dark Archive 4/5

How about this, instead of getting pissed about Custom Chronicles, let's instead brainstorm a solution that helps everyone.

I've thought for a while that PFS needs a "Chronicle Generator." Something where you can input your "signature" into the system and it will throw it on the Chronicle.

Then you just input what chronicle you need to build for, and the players, then it spits out a series of PDFs you can print, or you can recall your old chronicles. That would be nice. Then, we have no reason to generate custom chronicles; the system for it would make the custom chronicles.

Heck, if you needed help making it, let me know.

5/5

Imper1um wrote:

How about this, instead of getting pissed about Custom Chronicles, let's instead brainstorm a solution that helps everyone.

I've thought for a while that PFS needs a "Chronicle Generator." Something where you can input your "signature" into the system and it will throw it on the Chronicle.

Then you just input what chronicle you need to build for, and the players, then it spits out a series of PDFs you can print, or you can recall your old chronicles. That would be nice. Then, we have no reason to generate custom chronicles; the system for it would make the custom chronicles.

Heck, if you needed help making it, let me know.

Better yet, just use the chronicle provided already. If you don't have a scanner to be able to sign and scan chronicles to email, invest in stamps and players will have to wait a day or two for the paper chronicle.

Grand Lodge 2/5

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The smaller problem that's involved with the paper chronicle statement is that for instance I'm Australian and I play with people from all over the world, even sending a letter overseas costs us $3+ depending on where they live so if I have a table of 6 people that's an $18 overhead to mail everyone paper chronicles and I don't think that's a reasonable expectation on GM's.

The Exchange 4/5 Owner - D20 Hobbies

Andrew Christian wrote:

GM doesn't know what is supposed to be on a chronicle or not

I believe all poisons have a purchase limit as well.

Short of a GM actually pulling up the raw sheet and comparing, we should expect GM's to notice even most of these types of alterations.

There are some legitimate sheets with unlimited poisons. Not a lot but some.

This whole issue just sounds like so much more effort. I've done online games, and it seems so much easier to print the sheet, alter it, and email it. Well easier than hand crafting a new one with changed data.

5/5

Andrew Nevin wrote:
The smaller problem that's involved with the paper chronicle statement is that for instance I'm Australian and I play with people from all over the world, even sending a letter overseas costs us $3+ depending on where they live so if I have a table of 6 people that's an $18 overhead to mail everyone paper chronicles and I don't think that's a reasonable expectation on GM's.

I can hear it now:

"I don't want to have to spend $18, so only Americans can play at my table!"

O.o

4/5

There were several suggestions on how to prepare the chronicles digitally and FREE of cost upthread.

Lets not get crazy.

5/5 5/55/55/5

With foxit, how do you pull the one page out from the rest?

The Exchange 4/5 Owner - D20 Hobbies

BigNorseWolf wrote:
With foxit, how do you pull the one page out from the rest?

PrimoPDF is a PDF printer for windows.

I'm on a mac, so I just print to preview or open it in PDFPenPro.

Liberty's Edge 2/5

Another close to free solution:

Print the page, sign it, take a photo with your smart phone, email/upload the picture.

With Adobe, I usually make fillable, signed forms like the following:
http://www.myth-weavers.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=47751&d=1386814 086

Dark Archive 2/5

James Risner wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
With foxit, how do you pull the one page out from the rest?

PrimoPDF is a PDF printer for windows.

I'm on a mac, so I just print to preview or open it in PDFPenPro.

You can also use NitroPDF for free as a printer. Just did 5 sheets that way. Easy peasy.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
James Risner wrote:
There are some legitimate sheets with unlimited poisons. Not a lot but some.

Actually unless it is on one after 5-04, there are no poisons that do not have limits on them on any chronicles(to include modules and APs). I recently looked into that.

The Exchange 4/5 Owner - D20 Hobbies

Dragnmoon wrote:
Actually unless it is on one after 5-04, there are no poisons that do not have limits on them on any chronicles(to include modules and APs). I recently looked into that.

Greenblood oil (100 gp) is unlimited on #3-03 unless Paizo updated the PDF to close it off.

Edit: Confirmed, still unlimited in today's download. I'm also confident there are many more unlimited ones on other sheets.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
With foxit, how do you pull the one page out from the rest?

Open the PDF, go to the page you want (usually the chronicle sheet)

Document menu > Export Page

pick a folder/file name > select Current Page > OK

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
James Risner wrote:

Greenblood oil (100 gp) is unlimited on #3-03 unless Paizo updated the PDF to close it off.

Edit: Confirmed, still unlimited in today's download. I'm also confident there are many more unlimited ones on other sheets.

grrrr... Missed that one, updated my list

Edit: Taking a look at my list, it looks like I did not include any that was already open by additional resources, so I can't rely on it...grrrrr

Dark Archive 4/5

Avatar-1 wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
With foxit, how do you pull the one page out from the rest?

Open the PDF, go to the page you want (usually the chronicle sheet)

Document menu > Export Page

pick a folder/file name > select Current Page > OK

Is this for the latest version (6.1)?

I can't find the document menu or a suitable export function in the program or the user manual. Also if I try printing the chron to a Foxit file it refuses to print an "encrypted" pdf and if I print to cutePDF it becomes uneditable in foxit.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

Michael Brock wrote:
When GMing, I've made RP notes before in the comments section of a chronicle sheet and there is nothing wrong with that. It makes the Chronicle sheet memorable to that player. One player will never forget the scenario where he impressed a female dwarf renting out a row boat so much, that she decided to make a memorable night for him. But, there was absolutely no mechanical benefit given. Unfortunately, the example I gave is just one of several examples I've received, and one of the least egregious.

Can you clarify on this one - I've seen a GM who found a way to use the same font as the chronicle sheet to add an RP note; looks identical. Is that okay?

Shadow Lodge 3/5

ZomB wrote:
Is this for the latest version (6.1)?

Ah no, sorry - I'm using an earlier version.

5/5

Avatar-1 wrote:
Can you clarify on this one - I've seen a GM who found a way to use the same font as the chronicle sheet to add an RP note; looks identical. Is that okay?

If the notes are printed in the items bought or blank notes section at the bottom of the page (depending on season) it is probably ok.

If the GM added the extra stuff to the tier rewards section of the chronicle sheet it is not ok, and you will need to get a new sheet.

And to be safe ask him in the future to use a font that does not match the one used on official chronicle sheets.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Quote:


Is this for the latest version (6.1)?

I can't find the document menu or a suitable export function in the program or the user manual. Also if I try printing the chron to a Foxit file it refuses to print an "encrypted" pdf and if I print to cutePDF it becomes uneditable in foxit.

Take a picture with the snapshot tool and paste into Word. Then you can save it as a pdf. Messes up the margins, but it works.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Just as a note: I purchased, a little while back (a few months?) an inexpensive scanner, Canon, about $64.00 US, from Best Buy. Not a bad scanner, haven't had anmy complaints from the players about the quality, and I did check for the first few uses.

Down side: Have to print the blanks to fill in.
Up side: Easy to scan and name custom for each player.
Saved as files, frequently in a shared drive that I can just give the players access to, so they can just grab them as needed, rather than eating up email bandwidth.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

This is what I'm talking about with the paizo font. I've blurred out the spoilers.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

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Avatar-1 wrote:
This is what I'm talking about with the paizo font. I've blurred out the spoilers.

That makes it look too much like it is actually part of the Chronicle sheet.

I would say that falls under not allowed.

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