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Hey Guys, I have a quick question.
I'm running a campaign and one of the NPCs is a druid and through story progression ends up becoming a lich. Applying the lich template changes her alignment from any neutral to any evil which means she drops her druid abilities and spells.
My question is, can this character be affected by the atonement spell and/or atone on her own to change her alignment back to any neutral, without losing any lich powers/abilities while gaining her druid powers/abilities back? The lich template as far as I can tell doesn't mention anything about what happens to a lich's powers if she goes from evil to anything else.
Thanks for the help!
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Of course a lich can atone - if she performs too many good deeds, a cleric of Urgathoa would be more than happy to... ... oh n'mind.
To answer your question, a Druid Lich can be Neutral Evil and have all her powers. I don't believe a lich can be not evil and remain a lich for any significant length of time.
Edit: There is the open question of whether the druid "ceases to revere nature", which is the more likely disqualifier.
As i see it, there are two different issues: druid liches and nonevil liches.
Alignmentwise, lich and druid overlap at neutral evil.
I generally would not say that a lich can become non-evil by less than to stop being a lich - either because the lich is fueled by evil (see how animate dead is usually explained as evil because of this) or because undeadness twists the characters mind to become evil.
I would also have issues with ubdead druids as i see undead kind of the opposite of natural, but thats more of a case of campaign flavor and theres no real rule explicitly preventing a lich druid.
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As already mentioned, you can be neutral evil as a druid. So if you just wanna make a lich druid who still has their spells and class features, there are no problems even within the rules. And even if there was a problem, it's an NPC: Just tell your players that it's a special homebrewed Lich template (without specifying the exact changes), they'll never know the difference.
If you want the lich to atone and become nonevil for fluff reasons... Don't forget that you are the DM, and you get to decide how these things work. Maybe there's nothing stopping liches from being redeemed, most just don't because the process of becoming one goes pretty far over the deep end in the first place. Maybe liches normally can't be redeemed, but this one is special for some reason. Maybe *most* liches redeem themselves eventually after they have a few thousand years to really take a look at their place in the universe, but usually get slain by adventurers before they get that old. Maybe your campaign setting is non-standard and liches are good guys by default.
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Could very well become a NE Druid who becomes an eternal guardian of some area or natural feature, such as a valley or forest or swamp, and reveres the destructive, lethal aspects of nature... plagues, vermin, storms, earthquakes, etc... or they could simply hold nature above humanity(well, all the sentient races being this is Pathfinder) and go out of their way to eliminate pesky things like loggers or trappers or settler or kids on camping trips.
Druid and Lich can go hand in hand pretty well actually, especially with certain archetypes.
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I don't see why you can't atone. However, the rituals to become a lich are pretty heinous. The road back to some other alignment is longer than most others. You would probably have to undertake many trials as determined by the GM. But, changing alignment should NEVER be as easy as casting a spell. Reread atonement if you think that.
There are two questions here the RP question can a litch atone sure why not.
Mechanics no you cannot dump the evil without losing the powers. Whatever ritual or barging was made to make the litch take them back and ten likely try to destroy you.
Liches aren't required to be evil to retain their powers.
However, the process of becoming a lich is normally horrible enough that any would-be lich that wasn't evil when he or she started on the path will certainly be evil by the time he or she reaches the end.
Becoming a lich isn't easy; it's essentially a complicated quest that ends in a chance to attempt lichdom. The process can easily have far-reaching repercussions for everyone around.
For example, though I'm oversimplifying, the the first five chapters of the Carrion Crown AP
So yeah, that's an entire campaign resulting from one man's quest for lichdom. Becoming a lich is serious business, dog.
And as already noted, your druid NPC can be neutral evil and retain all druid abilities.
If the druid somehow actually regretted lichdom, she could get an atonement back to neutral.
Though if a druid REALLY regretted lichdom, I'd expect her to destroy her phylactery and ask to be destroyed and then be reincarnated once more as a living person.
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I just achieved lichdom in a campaign, and you want to know what I did? I amassed a great deal of wealth, material components, and spent a while in secluded research and work, to strip my soul out and stuff it in a box. No evil sacrifices, no misdeeds, no bargains with devils. mechanics wise, being undead, I was shifted to evil alignment (from CG) I gave my DM The Stare, proceeded to cast atonement, and continued being an upstanding, moral, helpful hero (And may or may not have OOCly told him to suck it)and got back to CN that same session by illustrating these same points (With extra emphasis on the 'Suck It.')By now I'm on my way back to CG.
Simply put, it depends on how you do it. You can be a NE lich druid, no problem. If you want to atone and get rid of the evil, no problem! just show that you're not an evil hateful bastard because of other people's prejudice.
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I just achieved lichdom in a campaign, and you want to know what I did? I amassed a great deal of wealth, material components, and spent a while in secluded research and work, to strip my soul out and stuff it in a box. No evil sacrifices, no misdeeds, no bargains with devils. mechanics wise, being undead, I was shifted to evil alignment (from CG) I gave my DM The Stare, proceeded to cast atonement, and continued being an upstanding, moral, helpful hero (And may or may not have OOCly told him to suck it)and got back to CN that same session by illustrating these same points (With extra emphasis on the 'Suck It.')By now I'm on my way back to CG.
Simply put, it depends on how you do it. You can be a NE lich druid, no problem. If you want to atone and get rid of the evil, no problem! just show that you're not an evil hateful bastard because of other people's prejudice.
Unfortunately Pathfinder has made the solid "Undead are always evil" nonsense that makes things more difficult in cases like this.
Personally, however, if someone just completed the path to Lichdom and emerged as an undead creature of arcane (or divine) existence, filled with an evil nature (be it selfish, paranoid, sinister or destructive), i would not allow them to simply cast atonement right off the bat because they undertook it willingly and with the new nature (alignment), they shouldn't have the drive to just hand wave it away... there should be some serious soul searching involved.
Also, if such a player told me to "suck it" at the table, there would be a foe with a +5 holy, impact, undead bane earthbreaker in their immediate future...
Instead of worrying, just use a Helm of Opposite Alignment to get your lich back to normal.
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They've removed from flavor the "steps" needed to become a lich, but in 1st edition it involved some pretty horrific things that put a person well beyond any form of atonement and redemption. However, if lichdom is forced upon a person through some curse (Ravenloft, 2nd edition, had such a being), it's feasible that a form of non-evil can be maintained though madness may set in when one's body begins to decay and their touch is harmful to all living creatures.
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Actually... we're all wrong:
Target: living creature touched
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He has free will. Thus, he can choose his own moral and ethical path. He doesn't even need atonement; he just needs to behave appropriately.
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As a DM you have all the power. Deities are a fickle bunch. In one of my last campaigns, I had a Mummified Hound Archon guarding the prison of Lilliana the World Eater, a Vampiric Marilith (cr 28. I told my group in the beginning of the game "this is not their world, good and evil aren't black and white, not everything you might think is evil is, be VERY careful....
Yet when the alchemist saw the mummy he chucked two fire bombs on it, nearly killing it. It turned around and used crushing despair an aoe spell to fear and paralyze anyone within 30'. The ranger was 35' and full attack'd killing him.... Thus Lilliana was freed. She is currently regaining her power, while the group tries to gather enough "retired" heroes and resources to stop her from achieving her world ending weapon, currently guarded by the worlds strongest Archmage El.
So yea...a mummified hound archon, who gave his life to his Goddess to keep her most powerful enemy under lock and key... Not all undead HAS to be evil, it's your world... enjoy it.
Unfortunately Pathfinder has made the solid "Undead are always evil" nonsense that makes things more difficult in cases like this.
I hear you there, that's the whole reason I magically became CE for all of like ten minutes.
Personally, however, if someone just completed the path to Lichdom and emerged as an undead creature of arcane (or divine) existence, filled with an evil nature (be it selfish, paranoid, sinister or destructive), i would not allow them to simply cast atonement right off the bat because they undertook it willingly and with the new nature (alignment), they shouldn't have the drive to just hand wave it away... there should be some serious soul searching involved.
I didn't want to die. I devoted massive expenditures of wealth and effort into finding a way to rip my soul out, and stuffed it in a box. And then I had to go hard to work, showing that I wasn't magically a twisted sadistic fiend.
Also, if such a player told me to "suck it" at the table, there would be a foe with a +5 holy, impact, undead bane earthbreaker in their immediate future...
In our group, you act stupid, you get called out on it. Common sense and whatnot. "NO, UR EVIL BECAUSE DED." Receives "Noo, you look at what I'm actually doing."
They've removed from flavor the "steps" needed to become a lich, but in 1st edition it involved some pretty horrific things that put a person well beyond any form of atonement and redemption.
You're never 'beyond' any form of redemption an atonement. Maybe the spell, but you're never 'stuck' in any one alignment. Anyway, as for the steps, if they still included them in the game, then sure. But they don't, so it's nothing more than money research and a feat.
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I just achieved lichdom in a campaign, and you want to know what I did? I amassed a great deal of wealth, material components, and spent a while in secluded research and work, to strip my soul out and stuff it in a box. No evil sacrifices, no misdeeds, no bargains with devils. mechanics wise, being undead, I was shifted to evil alignment (from CG) I gave my DM The Stare, proceeded to cast atonement, and continued being an upstanding, moral, helpful hero (And may or may not have OOCly told him to suck it)and got back to CN that same session by illustrating these same points (With extra emphasis on the 'Suck It.')By now I'm on my way back to CG.
Simply put, it depends on how you do it. You can be a NE lich druid, no problem. If you want to atone and get rid of the evil, no problem! just show that you're not an evil hateful bastard because of other people's prejudice.
Well, as far as Pathfinder is concerned, you did it wrong. The process to becoming a lich is much more involved as is the process of atonement according to established lore. Also seems like you tried to railroad your GM. Not cool.
Well, as far as Pathfinder is concerned, you did it wrong. The process to becoming a lich is much more involved as is the process of atonement according to established lore. Also seems like you tried to railroad your GM. Not cool.
The Lich's PhylacteryAn integral part of becoming a lich is the creation of the phylactery in which the character stores his soul. The only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich can rejuvenate after it is killed.
Each lich must create its own phylactery by using the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.
There's little actual lore behind the actual creation thereof as far as the rulebooks were concerned. And if we were operating under the pathfinder specific campaign setting lore, I haven't found setting-specific phylactery requirements.
All I see are a GP tag, a caster level tag, and a feat tag, by the rules.
You're never 'beyond' any form of redemption an atonement. Maybe the spell, but you're never 'stuck' in any one alignment. Anyway, as for the steps, if they still included them in the game, then sure. But they don't, so it's nothing more than money research and a feat.
The CRB and bestiaries are rules books. They're not meant to support fluff. That's what the player's companions, APs, et al are for.
Indeed.
Of course, even if they were there, it would be all fluff and flavor, and thus non-binding.
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In our group, you act stupid, you get called out on it. Common sense and whatnot. "NO, UR EVIL BECAUSE DED." Receives "Noo, you look at what I'm actually doing."
Also, if such a player told me to "suck it" at the table, there would be a foe with a +5 holy, impact, undead bane earthbreaker in their immediate future...
Fomsie's reaction was actually pretty mild, but hey, look at what you're doing? Okay. Let's look at whether you followed the rules for becoming a lich:
The quest to become a lich is a lengthy one. While construction of the magical phylactery to contain the spellcaster's soul is a critical component, a prospective lich must also learn the secrets of transferring his soul into the receptacle and of preparing his body for the transformation into undeath, neither of which are simple tasks. Further complicating the ritual is the fact that no two bodies or souls are exactly alike—a ritual that works for one spellcaster might simply kill another or drive him insane. The exact methods for each spellcaster's transformation are left to the GM's discretion, but should involve expenditures of hundreds of thousands of gold pieces, numerous deadly adventures, and a large number of difficult skill checks over the course of months, years, or decades.
Did you even ask your GM what method you would require? No? Then
All I see are a GP tag, a caster level tag, and a feat tag, by the rules.
Do you play just to smash things, get loot, and have a few laughs, I take it?
Indeed.
Of course, even if they were there, it would be all fluff and flavor, and thus non-binding.
It's binding if the GM enforces it. Shiney's didn't, which is unfortunate.
*Many things omitted*
Did you even ask your GM what method you would require? No? Then ** spoiler omitted **
We went by the D20PFSRD, not the PRD. And I did ask, and we looked up what the rules were, and we operated by the rules presented there.
Soooo, yeah. I'm a lich. CN, and CG this upcoming session. Y.M.M.V., I'm just trying to show that this is something that you really can go any direction on, as that seemed to be not present in this thread yet.
EDIT:
And to Buri, again, Y.M.M.V. The "Always evil undead, because undead" thing works for some people, not others. I'm aware that doesn't fly in all groups. But it can, will, and does in some. I'm not suggesting that it's the default, or even more than a minority. But it is totally doable, and by the RAW, completely okay, if your group and DM sees it that way.
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First, if you are following golarion lore there seems to be some really really really rare cases of things like vampires being not evil.
However unless you copletely ignore all existing information on becoming a lich like Shiney did generally a redemption thing makes little sense unless the game takes place over a long period of time.
One doesnt become a ich by accident and i cant really see someone drinking blood from the skull of a newborn baby while amidst the screams of 500 virgins being devoured alive then deciding oh wait i feel bad about it.
What i can see is a lich retreating to isolation and having their perspective change through time. Sort of like a university student realizing he hasnt eaten meat for four months.
We went by the D20PFSRD, not the PRD.
Exact same text. (for once)
Soooo, yeah. I'm a lich. CN, and CG this upcoming session. Y.M.M.V., I'm just trying to show that this is something that you really can go any direction on, as that seemed to be not present in this thread yet.
You did catch that you're not a valid target for atonement, yes?
We went by the D20PFSRD, not the PRD.Exact same text. (for once)
Soooo, yeah. I'm a lich. CN, and CG this upcoming session. Y.M.M.V., I'm just trying to show that this is something that you really can go any direction on, as that seemed to be not present in this thread yet.You did catch that you're not a valid target for atonement, yes?
Yes, actually. I was recounting the events as they happened. After we broke for that game, the GM did some more digging about that, and we talked it over. So the Atonement was out, cause I did it to myself. The fact that I had always been leading a noble, always helpful character role that was expected to be a perfect fit for the hero, and showed no intent of changing, was still strong enough for the DM to consider CN, even after the atonement was retconned. We saw the fluff there, but the fact was, I had a massive arcane library at my disposal. I barely even needed to touch the dice to break into the 40's and 50's for my knowledge DCs, and I had the plan, and the cash. Then we looked up what the actual creation rules were, and the DM's response (paraphrased) was basically "That doesn't match what the lore section said at all." And we worked it out from there.
That said, that was just our group who didn't believe that all undead regardless of their reasoning had to be magically evil. Some groups do go by that. I've played in them, and had a great deal of fun in them. I just avoid any undeath related aspects.
Edit: To Mojorat, No sacrifices, no babies or virgins, no demons or devils, either. Arcane research to rip out a soul, stuff it in a box. Necromancy death effects, binding conjuration, so on, so forth. Again, this is all because our group, and DM didn't go by the claim that all undead meant evil, no exceptions.
Forgotten Realms has a good Lich call a Baelnorn.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Baelnorn_lich
should
Operative word.
Undead are never truly free-willed, even if they are intelligent any under nobody's thrall. The infusion of their very soul with Negative energy permanently corrupts the spirit. They are never truly the same person they were when they were alive.
Campaign-world flavor. Not a rule.
It's binding if the GM enforces it. Shiney's didn't, which is unfortunate.Indeed.
Of course, even if they were there, it would be all fluff and flavor, and thus non-binding.
Depends entirely on your point of view. If it works for them, then all good.
Undead are never truly free-willed, even if they are intelligent any under nobody's thrall. The infusion of their very soul with Negative energy permanently corrupts the spirit. They are never truly the same person they were when they were alive.Campaign-world flavor. Not a rule.
^This...see my link to the Baenlorn for an example.
In general, I think liches are somewhat like ghosts. They're classic villians and should be filled to the brim with flavor and backstory, with a lot of development and story to back them up. For example, just running into a lich at the end of a dungeon with no setup doesn't do them justice, they can be a main villian for an entire campaign (same with ghosts- see the bestiary entry). To just suddenly become a lich with a few rolls, GP, and a feat feels like it cheapens the concept.
Now, to contrast my rant above, everyone should play to have fun and if it works for the group, it works for the group.
For the undead = evil bit, I could see myself enjoying campaigns that go in either direction with it. Good liches would certainly be rare, but their possibility is entirely up to the GM and his world.
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Hmmm. Sometimes even the devs forget that Atonement can only target living creatures.
So I'd be willing to have atonement work on an undead creature.
Of course, Atonement itself has the caveat that the creature actually needs to regret its actions.
An undead creature that deliberately turned itself undead and wishes to remain as undead probably doesn't regret doing so.
Shiney, your GM did you a HUGE favor when he apparently decided the entire lich process, which traditionally involves an entire string of atrocities to pull off and which can fail completely, shouldn't be any more complicated than just making a magic item.
Hmmm. That might be part of it - the current lichdom rules don't have hardcoded into them any of the danger of the process.
In older editions, attempting lichdom had hardcoded into it a significant chance of failure, with failure obliterating the character.
I need to re-read the lich entry in Undead Revisited and see if they go into any of that.
The Graveknight creation rules from Undead Revisited (which can be read here) should give you some ideas as to what the lich creation process should be like.
In my games, the transformation to undeath is a seriously mind-warping process that forcibly rewires the thought processes of whoever goes through it. A template like vampire leaves behind something that at least somewhat resembles the original person, warped by the forced alignment change and the presumed hunger that comes with undeath. Turning into something like a wight, wraith, or specter obliterates what the person used to be (as indicated by the loss of all class levels), leaving only a monster behind.
While there can be good-aligned undead, they should be about as rare as finding, say, a non-evil demon or devil.
APs are written by writers, not devs.
Shiney, your GM did you a HUGE favor when he apparently decided the entire lich process, which traditionally involves an entire string of atrocities to pull off and which can fail completely, shouldn't be any more complicated than just making a magic item.
You mean, by going by what the actual rules about creating the phylactery state? Yeah.
I need to re-read the lich entry in Undead Revisited and see if they go into any of that.The Graveknight creation rules from Undead Revisited (which can be read here) should give you some ideas as to what the lich creation process should be like.
I'll, give you that. But, the graveknight to me seems to be about pledging yourself to a lord, so that he can give you the power to do what a magic user can do on their own. I suppose that's just interpretation.
I admit, I find it lackluster myself how there's little to no flavor behind it, but it's great that they give players options for legitimately becoming undead besides "find vampire, attach timebomb, offer neck"
In my games,
There ya go. Your games. It works for you, that's great. Not everyone feels the same way, and that's what I was trying to represent.
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Having access to that massive arcane library would only help you to uncover the horrifically evil ritual required to become a classic lich.
Now, if your gm wants non-classic liches, it's all good...but the fact that he enforced the alignment change leads me to think otherwise.
Smells like limberger, from here.
If you want to be a technical, rules-miser a phylactery is only part of the process and is described as such. There is inherent fluff required to complete the process. To dismiss the fluff presented and to claim the phylactery is all you need it simply inaccurate.
If you want to be a technical, rules-miser a phylactery is only part of the process and is described as such. There is inherent fluff required to complete the process. To dismiss the fluff presented and to claim the phylactery is all you need it simply inaccurate.
I'm sorry. I see the point you're making, I do, and I disagree. To say that fluff is required is to make it crunch, and thereby, not fluff.
It's just like RAW vs RAI. Our group feels one way, yours may feel another, and any number of people can be anywhere else, or in-between. Do we really have anything else to throw at this zombie-horse?
To quote your own quote:
An integral part of becoming a lich is the creation of the phylactery in which the character stores his soul.
It does not say it is the complete process, nor does it even promise creating a phylactery in and of itself makes you a lich. Logically, failing any other rules, fluff is required.
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If you want to be a technical, rules-miser a phylactery is only part of the process and is described as such. There is inherent fluff required to complete the process. To dismiss the fluff presented and to claim the phylactery is all you need it simply inaccurate.I'm sorry. I see the point you're making, I do, and I disagree. To say that fluff is required is to make it crunch, and thereby, not fluff.
It's just like RAW vs RAI. Our group feels one way, yours may feel another, and any number of people can be anywhere else, or in-between. Do we really have anything else to throw at this zombie-horse?
Well yeah, if you plan to go strictly by what is written... your Lich is evil because you must be, by the written rules and you cannot Atone with the spell. You used some fluff, off the bat, "I act like a hero". but that's fluff, and the rules say evil... sorry.
It works both ways there. :P
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*KITCHEN SINK*
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I get that. And the bottom line is, I did figure it out. I made knowledge checks, spent time researching, and planning the process. There was a little more fluff besides my actual transition, but the only rules I had to meet were the phylactery creation rules, because the DM didn't feel the need to create extra hoops and whistles and unnecessarily evil deeds, when all I had to do, at it's most basic level, was
1: Create magic box.
2: Figure out how to stuff soul in magic box.
3: Proceed.
And again, we're getting into fluff and crunch and rules and backstory. The bottom line is, my DM didn't decide I needed sacrificial babies and deals with the devil to apply my learning to extending my life. That's my group, my game, my story. And Alwin's could be the same way. Or it could be totally different where the lich only becomes such by horrible deeds and can never ever ever become good again. They're both okay.
Again, I realize this flies for some, not everyone. My group ruled that there is no alignment penalty, nor terrible horrible deeds for figuring out a new soul-tank. Some people require sacrificial babies, deals with devils, and permanent evil taint. They're both cool. Why is there still an argument?
You challenged me to come up with more stuff, and I can never resist typing a response as I have Leonard Nimoy voice Spock in my head as I type it. :D