I'm starting a new campaign and I'd like some advice on how to build my character so that he's most effective in combat (and hopefully also out of combat).
I have decided on a Cleric of Cayden Cailean for RP reasons. Given that as a starting point, would I be better off as a good primary/secondary caster, martial healer, or straight support? Any advice on feats, domains/subdomains, race (other than human, since I figure that's the best, but it's a bit boring to me), and skills would be much appreciated.
Also if it helps my group will consist of a alchemist, a samurai, and a rogue, but the GM is flexible so I'm not overly concerned about making up for group's weaknesses. I'd rather make sure I'm personally fun/effective in combat.
Thanks!
Make him a melee specialist with buffing, that focuses on out-of-combat heals with his Channeling. Healing does not make for good stories around a tavern, after all! But "With a prayer to Cayden and a swipe of my weapon, the beast was vanquished!" sounds a lot better. Besides, the Samurai and Rogue will love Buffing Love. Str>Wis>Cha>Con>Dex>Int. Play him like a fighter with flair. And remember: Life is to be Enjoyed!
I like the idea of a DEX based melee cleric using a rapier, who can get in some party face stuff.
What's the point buy? Did you already roll stats?
Best domains are the Trade subdomain of the Travel Domain, and the Liberation Domain. Stick with light to medium armor.
Human seems to be the best choice, using a rapier and being DEX based makes Weapon Finesse an obvious choice for 1st level feats. Reach Spell is something I always recommend for cleric builds at some point, since it lets you heal from a distance with a ranged touch at one spell level higher (though it does cost a full round action to do so unless it is quickened) which becomes invaluable later on. Being DEX based helps with that.
Improved Initiative is also a solid choice so you can attempt to get the buffs going before your allies get a turn in.
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I've been pondering a similar concept myself for an upcoming Skull&Shackles game. I was thinking of going finesse-rapier, and using Ferocity subdomain to get damage boosts at low levels until the better buffs kick in.
Master Marshmallow, I don't think clerics of CC can take the Trade subdomain; Exploration is their option off Travel.
I was actually considering going with the Varisian Pilgrim archetype from Inner Sea Magic; I figure losing medium armor and shields isn't so bad for a Dex-based guy who will be on a ship or swimming a lot. Being able to make my party members do ferocious strikes and ignore difficult terrain(from Travel) seems reasonably okay.
No matter what you do, you're still going to be a cleric and they're pretty solid. That leaves a lot of room to play around for flavor's sake.
I recommend Good and Liberation Domains. Touch of Good is seriously under appreciated. It is a seriously good buff, especially at higher levels.
Reach Clerics are very good =)
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fun and effective in combat is somewhat subjective. For some, that means doing a lot of dpr, for others it is contributing significantly to the groups success as a whole, whether you personally deal the DPR as well.
Their are really 3 combat roles that a party needs to cover to for maximum effect. Striker, Controller and Support. Most rogues and samurai are strikers, so unless they are working with an unusual build, that is pretty well covered. Alchemists can be built for any role, but with the right discoveries their bombs can provide some really good control. Clerics can also do anything, but the strongest option for your party would be to fulfill the support role: buffing, occasional healing, and dealing with negative conditions. Doing this means you won't be swinging your weapon as much, since you will have spells to cast, but it also means you don't need a really high wisdom and thus can afford good strength.
To take advantage of this look at the reach cleric as mentioned above. You wield a long spear, on your turn you generally cast a spell and position yourself so that enemies have to move through your reach, giving you attack of opportunities. Meanwhile the samurai and the rogue are taking advantage of your buffing spells to really deal some damage and the alchemist is using bombs to force enemies where he wants them to be (hopefully driving them into your threatened area where the samurai can smash them and the rogue can flank.
If your alchemist is just going to focus on DPR you have three strikers, and you will probably be most effective alternating between support and control. You will need a higher wisdom to have good DCs for your spells, and it will be difficult since due to action economy you can seldom manage to fulfill more than one role a turn.
Travel domain. The +10' move is awesome, and Agile Feet is some tasty thick icing on the cake. Nothing else comes close.
I wouldn't bother with a Dex cleric, even if he does have a rapier. You'll just waste a feat, do less damage and not have a great deal else to do with Dex anyway unless you're very keen on bows.
Travel domain. The +10' move is awesome, and Agile Feet is some tasty thick icing on the cake. Nothing else comes close.
I wouldn't bother with a Dex cleric, even if he does have a rapier. You'll just waste a feat, do less damage and not have a great deal else to do with Dex anyway unless you're very keen on bows.
Except for the AC, boost to Reflex which is your only bad save, Initiative which is important for the primary buffer in the group, and the ranged touch spells on your allies when you start needing to hit them with ranged heals with Reach spell.
Doing damage should not be his goal, if it was, don't make a cleric.
Travel domain. The +10' move is awesome, and Agile Feet is some tasty thick icing on the cake. Nothing else comes close.
I wouldn't bother with a Dex cleric, even if he does have a rapier. You'll just waste a feat, do less damage and not have a great deal else to do with Dex anyway unless you're very keen on bows.
Except for the AC, boost to Reflex which is your only bad save, Initiative which is important for the primary buffer in the group, and the ranged touch spells on your allies when you start needing to hit them with ranged heals with Reach spell.
Doing damage should not be his goal, if it was, don't make a cleric.
Really, if your not worshiping Sarenrae you don't have much business with a dex build. I'm running a Dexterous casting Cleric and the early levels have been kinda awful so I can't recommend it in good conscious.
Initiative is nice, I usually pick up Improved Initiative. Reflex is negligible, very few times does a failed reflex save kill you. I don't believe your allies are trying to evade your heals. I've never had a DM rule that way. Odd.
Everyone should try to dish out some damage. A dead enemy deals no damage =)
Just got back to this tonight, thanks for the responses! Very helpful! I am going to grab a beer and reread.
We used the 2d6 + 6 rolling system for the ability scores. I rolled 8, 9, 11, 13, 16, and 17.
I have looked at the cleric optimization guides, as someone mentioned. They have helped, but I wanted some extra thoughts with my desired deity and playing style in mind.
I also looked into evangelist and it just doesn't seem to jive well, RP-wise, with CC as a deity. Isn't his "church" generally fairly lax? One more question: is liberation actually available to me? I was looking at travel + liberation, but in many sources it doesn't seem like CC clerics get that domain, while in others they do. It seems they should, given the god, but the answer doesn't seem to clear.
Just got back to this tonight, thanks for the responses! Very helpful! I am going to grab a beer and reread.
We used the 2d6 + 6 rolling system for the ability scores. I rolled 8, 9, 11, 13, 16, and 17.
I have looked at the cleric optimization guides, as someone mentioned. They have helped, but I wanted some extra thoughts with my desired deity and playing style in mind.
Ouch. Maybe ask if you can get 20 point buy instead. With that you can run an array like this.
Dwarf ClericStr14
Dex12
Con16
Int7
Wis18
Cha10
But if you wanna use those stats I recommend. Dwarf bonuses are added in.
Str13
Dex11
Con18
Int8
Wis19
Cha7
Get heavy armor proficiency asap. Skillwise, you're a cleric so we hardly get any =P. I like to drop a rank in Diplomacy and Kn.Religion. Take Steel Soul at 1st level. Its a Dwarf racial feat that doubles your resistance vs spells. The charisma penalty is painful so you'll only be able to channel once a day. But you're tough as beans with a +4 Con Mod!
As a Cleric of CC, you kinda have to buy lots of booze and take the trait Fortified Drinker. Get wasted and gain +2 against mind-affecting stuff!
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Cha 7, Scavion? Ouch, he'd only get one channel a day. Not sure if the OP wants to basically completely give up on channel energy.
If you really want a Dex based cleric, I'd go with:(before racial mods)
S 9
D 16
C 13
I 8
W 17
CH 11
I'd personally switch Con and Cha, but I like Channel and I'm okay operating with no Con bonus. It makes some people nervous to do so.
Your melee damage will stink until you get divine power with this build. I'd go with a race that gets a floating +2 - human, half-elf, or half-orc. I'm assuming no non-core races but aasimar would be a decent choice if it's allowed. Really I lean towards human as skill points are an issue for a low-Int cleric and you can just spend your bonus feat on Weapon Finesse. This particular cleric is more of a buffer/problem solver. You really will never be a damage powerhouse but you should do well at keeping your party buffed and making everyone else awesome. You will end up with a decent AC even without heavy armor due to your Dex.
Also Scavion, I'm fairly certain that while you can auto-touch allies with melee touch spells, you still have to roll to hit for ranged touch spells, even helpful ones. A nice GM would probably let you target no-dex touch AC to simulate them not trying to evade you.
9 Str on a class that probably needs to hold stuff? =P
That gives him a grand total of 30 lbs to carry. That pretty much only gives him his armor and his weapon.
I don't know about you, but I like carrying adventuring equipment. Feels good when you break out the spade and crowbar.
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9 Str on a class that probably needs to hold stuff? =P
That gives him a grand total of 30 lbs to carry. That pretty much only gives him his armor and his weapon.
I don't know about you, but I like carrying adventuring equipment. Feels good when you break out the spade and crowbar.
A fair objection. However, if he's going to wear medium armor anyway, he can safely go to a medium load. That gives him 60 pounds to work with. A breastplate and rapier use up 32 pounds, leaving 28 pounds for miscellaneous equipment, which should suffice. If he eventually invests in a mithril breastplate, that frees up 15 pounds. At that point he can carry 13 pounds and still be in a light load, and that presumes he hasn't decided to get a Str boosting item. A handy haversack only weighs 5 pounds, so he can be decently equipped and still carry a light load. Or he could simply invest in muleback cords if encumberance is truly an issue.
He's never going to be the carrying powerhouse of the group, that's true.
Btw, OP and Scavion, I'm not claiming my way is "right" and any otehr way is "wrong." There are many valid and fun ways to build from the stats you've got. I'm just trying to point out pros and cons so you can make an informed decision about what works best for you.
Since my version would rely on helping out the rest of his team to be truly effective, it would be nice to know what everyone else in the group plans on doing so you can synergize with it. Working as a team is the best "build."
9 Str on a class that probably needs to hold stuff? =P
That gives him a grand total of 30 lbs to carry. That pretty much only gives him his armor and his weapon.
I don't know about you, but I like carrying adventuring equipment. Feels good when you break out the spade and crowbar.
Btw, OP and Scavion, I'm not claiming my way is "right" and any otehr way is "wrong." There are many valid and fun ways to build from the stats you've got. I'm just trying to point out pros and cons so you can make an informed decision about what works best for you.
Since my version would rely on helping out the rest of his team to be truly effective, it would be nice to know what everyone else in the group plans on doing so you can synergize with it. Working as a team is the best "build."
Oh yeah definitely. I'm merely doing the same for your build that way the OP can make an informed decision from the getgo.
To critique further, his melee attacks with your build are at a -1 penalty to attacks and damage. His range attacks are slightly better, but he has to use a crossbow to avoid penalties to damage. His options are very limited outside of casting.
I'm running a dextrous character in a Roll20 game right now and seeing as Cayden doesn't get any of the ranged touch domain powers, I just can't recommend it because without those, my contributions would be quite lame heh.
Nothing says you can't support the team as well as dishing out some melee damage. If you really want to lay it on thick with the support, get a reach weapon like the Longspear. Move into a favorable position and use your standard actions to buff the party and make attacks through opportunity with your reach.
Just to state my opinion on this because I feel it might help yall understand why I feel the way I do. Unless you're using a crazy halfling aid another build, I dont ever want to see Aid Another be even a good option for you to take in combat.
As a Cleric of Cayden, you're the one whose going to want to do heroic things. Buffing up your friends and watching them slay the dragon isn't a great story to tell at the tavern.
Though I'll say again, see if your DM will letcha take 20 point buy instead because that allows for a much more forgiving array.
I'm running C. C. cleric in a home game.
I went evangelist, for the buffs.
At 1st level, your party will appreciate the combo of bless and inspire (known as bard bonus, later, bard/bard).
It's also nice to have a class ability to be the loudest person in the group.
He had a childhood encounter with the diety himself, during the after party for the adventurers who rescued him and his parents.
He became a believer, went and trained at the church/brewery, and now travels with a party, preaching the word of the "God of Adventurers"tm.
There's plenty of roleplay to work with.
The church is chaotic, so I came up with my own title (Call me Thane, my son).
I preach the words of C. C., often speaking as a sort of meta gamist.
(Cadean says every class can benefit from a master work buckler!
Learn to go faster by improving your iniative- going first can save your life!
Toughness never hurts!
Etc., etc.)
Rules wise, remember that drinking is almost a requirement for the god, so make sure your con can handle it.
Travel is an excellent domain.
I made a mistake, looking at the evangelist spontaneous casting.
I took spell focus and greater spell focus for enchantment, hoping to make the casting stronger.
Problem was, I put points into having a higher cha to cover the perform and be the party face.
That left my wis lower.
Also, most of the enchantments for cleric are on the spontaneous casting list already, leaving few extras.
(Though murderous command can be very helpful)
With lighter armor and no shields, evangelist leads towards a more support style of play.
Rapier helps, but you already need wis for casting, cha for channel and face stuff, so adding dex str/dex for combat and even int to go duelist makes you very MAD.
I'm casting and staying in the backfield, am now using flight from the travel domain, and spending my time buffing and buffing again.
I took craft wand to add to the number of spells at my disposal since I'm without spontaneous casting for cures.
If you can't get a re-roll on those stats, I'd go with Scavion's layout and stick with casting as your focus, avoiding melee as much as possible.
Scavion said
Str13
Dex11
Con18
Int8
Wis19
Cha7
Though I might switch str and cha, putting an advance in str at 4th.
Go with masterwork and mithril or darkwood to help with weight.
Claim you were smarter, but the booze has addled you.
By the way, ultimate equiptment has a holy symbol with a flask in it if you are worried about spilling your beer in combat.
So, if nothing else, this thread served to help convince my DM that I should reroll. And, huzzah, I got 10, 10, 11, 13, 16, 18. He said we can use this set, but if it proves to be too good (we're all mostly new at this) then we may tweak it down a bit.
Sorry to throw a curveball in here after all the great advice based on the other set of stats. What say you now? I like the idea of casting over melee, but a balance would be okay too. The samurai looks like he knows what he is doing and should be a force in combat, and the alchemist is actually now a wizard.
And of course I am going to be acquiring that holy symbol. I'm really looking forward to the RP aspect of this character.
Also, is there a consensus on the liberation domain for CC?
Thanks again.
Liberation is probably his best Domain and will save you and your allies lives several times. Travel domain makes up for Dwarven 20ft speed. Being a Dwarf lets ya wear heavy armor well if you grab the feat for it or take a level of fighter later.
With that array I recommend, if you're crazy about channeling heh,
Dwarf Cleric
Str 13
Dex 11
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 20
Cha 14
If you don't care about channeling and want to get down and dirty and smack some punks up heres
Dwarf Cleric
Str 16
Dex 11
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 20
Cha 11
Also lemme know if you don't want to play a Dwarf or something. They make pretty good worshipers of Cayden though, despite his easygoingness.
Haha, awesome. I'm actually leaning toward dwarf. In other games I have played I have gravitated toward dwarves over the other races (no idea why) and I think it would make a lot of sense for what I'm going for. Kind of a Captain Jack meets Kvothe from Name of the Wind kind of thing.
I do love the Liberation domain, but I just want to make sure it is within Cayden's list of domains. It might not matter if I talked with my DM about it, but I'd rather be up front with him.
I don't really enjoy taking levels outside of the class I choose. I realize it might help with the effectiveness of the character, but it's just not as fun for me.
It's almost impossible to screw up a cleric of cayden cailean, no matter what type you are building, combat etc...he frankly has a very good list of domains.
Yeah, I am thinking about doing Freedom (assuming Liberation is a domain within Cayden's scope) and Travel. Both look really useful and fun.
Yeah, I am thinking about doing Freedom (assuming Liberation is a domain within Cayden's scope) and Travel. Both look really useful and fun.It's almost impossible to screw up a cleric of cayden cailean, no matter what type you are building, combat etc...he frankly has a very good list of domains.
It used to be, I found out that it got cut from the latest printing. I'm sure your DM would be fine with it. He had a big freedom motif.
The Good Domain is pretty nice as well.
I understand your desire not to multiclass. If your happy with just 1 domain(Liberation or Travel is still crazy good standalone), the Evangelist and Crusader Cleric are very nice.
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CC has access to the Ferocity subdomain, which replaces the first level Strength granted power with a 3+wis/day no action damage boost(+1/2 cleric level).
Travel is just one of the best domains in the game. Ignoring difficult terrain doesn't come up in every situation but when it does come up boy is it nice.
I actually like Scavion's second stat set for a dwarf cleric of CC. I try to avoid a Cha penalty on a cleric, but I'm fine with a flat +0.
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We used the 2d6 + 6 rolling system for the ability scores. I rolled 8, 9, 11, 13, 16, and 17.Ouch. Maybe ask if you can get 20 point buy instead....
What he has now is actually equivalent to 24 point-buy.
I like your dwarf cleric idea, however. Plugging his die rolls in generates...
STR: 13
DEX: 9
CON+ 18
INT: 11
WIS+ 19
CHA- 6
(Yes, believe it or not, it was once possible to enjoy a character with crap for dexterity. Well, it still is.)
Party role: pure divine caster with a hefty wisdom bonus -- and so don't shy from save-or-suck (such as a nice Bane dropped on the enemy party in the round after you've Blessed your party), as you would if you were a reach-cleric with strength as your primary stat.
How to make the character not be boring: be funny as $#*& at all times. You're a drunkard who rides around on an equally drunk boar (Animal domain + Boon Companion), and swears like a demented Billy Connolly with Tourette Syndrome. Because you're a dwarf, and have a reputation to uphold! Ham it up!
Be comically horrible in melee (*except* for touch-attacks, which will be OK versus anything with rotten touch-AC, and that's a curve you can keep in front of as CR-appropriate monsters increasingly rely on natural armor for AC), but have enough hitpointsm saves, and armor class to get away with it. Have a rusty non-masterwork rapier you never use, and otherwise have a shield in one hand and a waraxe (or charged spell) in the other. Have one level of fighter at 1st for heavy armor proficiency, and martial weapon proficiency, among other things). Take Steel Soul as a feat, and Glory of Old as a trait. Let the rogue and/or alchemist enjoy their roles as "party face", and don't bother with charisma skills.
Traits and feats
0. Eyes and Ears of the City, Birthmark
1. Additional Traits: Defender of the Society, Glory of Old
1. (fighter): Mounted Combat
3. Steel Soul, or start in on whatever SoS casters need
5. Indomitable Mount, or start in on whatever SoS casters need
Skills: max Perception, max Ride (after buying INT-boosting ioun, or raising the stat), smattering of other wisdom skills. Knowledge skills? Ask the rogue or alchemist. If he doesn't know, immediately shout, "Well, whaddya *good for*?! Learn it an' make ya self useful, boy!" (especially appropriate after they've just murderstabbed or nukebombed like a hundred critters while you haven't landed a single hit).
You're in a home game, so don't sweat it. Keep everyone in stitches, and have a ball. The lulz are far more important than the fights. Eventually (if not fairly quickly, given your stat rolls) the GM will trade up your hog for something a lot better, and it will become your melee mechanism. (Just don't act needy; let it fall it your lap.)
My build is a bit different I went Dex light armor build.
Hi bjarg23, welcome to the forums. Above each post is a time-stamp. The last post in this thread was in 2013, so there's a good chance a lot of these people won't reply. If you're looking for advice you're probably better off starting your own thread, but having said that:
I have a Kengu +2Dex +2Wis stats but for story is a Tengue ... I made my tiding put a offering in a cup toaste and poof
Good backstory, nice.
Tengue Cleric
STR 10
DEX 18
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 18
CHA 16
This looks like you're trying to use a 20 point buy, but don't know how it works (You're using a 32 point buy there). Click HERE to see how to buy ability scores with "points" (If you're using a custom ability generator then never mind).
weapon finesse mostly used rapier and katana(fathers broken sword)
improved crit then enchant weapon with keen 16-20 crit range
mytheral chain or celestial armor for armor
lyre of building if you can swing it...
So Improved Critical and the Keen weapon ability don't stack with each other. You could take one or the other, but there's no reason to take both. On the plus side, a Keen Rapier or Katana has a 15-20 crit range (better than the 16-20 you posted) so it's even better.
I don"t get why people rag on clerics they can be
cleric of coin like omen drawn Tanky
or a leaf in the wind dexy crit master
I even had a minitor cleric of dreams
Absolutely. Clerics are one of the most powerful classes in this game, and a lot of people don't like them. I think their reputation is mostly due to people playing the "Heal-Bot", but also a little because making an effective cleric takes a little more system knowledge than some other classes.
There was a little discussion about it HERE a while back.
What he has now is actually equivalent to 24 point-buy.We used the 2d6 + 6 rolling system for the ability scores. I rolled 8, 9, 11, 13, 16, and 17.Ouch. Maybe ask if you can get 20 point buy instead....
Hey Slim. RayFinkle hasn't posted since 2014, so you're unlikely to get a response from him on that one. Scavion's still pretty active though so you could get a response if that's where you were looking.
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Gah.... I'm like -10 Perception to notice necros.
Totally be first eaten in a zombie flick.
Totally be first eaten in a zombie flick.
Heh, well I guess in this case you're technically the 2nd eaten.