Wrath for two (Gestalt)?


Wrath of the Righteous


I was talking with a friend about giving Wrather a try with just two players. We'd be able to meet more often and get through the AP a lot faster - but obviously the power level would be in question, especially with the curve ball of the new mythic rules. After talking to the person who would GM this campaign, we agreed that a pair of Gestalt characters would probably be the way to go.

What we're considering right now (in part after browsing some of these threads) is a couple of complimentary Paladin // Summoners... specifically a Oath of Vengeance Paladin / Synthesist and a Sacred Shield / Master Summoner. On the surface it looks like a good pairing and good combinations, but I'd be interested in the thoughts of those here.

The Synthesist will use a Greatsword and his evolutions will focus on defenses and enhanced combat abilities while the Master Summoner will specialize in summoning celestial creatures and beings.

EDIT: Sorry - didn't see Mercurial's earlier post. Consider this an update to that one.


Be VERY careful when using Gestalt rules, especially with Mythic Tiers involved. My group rant a test campaign a while back using the gestalt rules and what we ended up with was hilariously broken without really even trying.

My character was a Sorcerer/Cleric with a spell perfection/battering blast build. I could pull 450-650 damage a round without even breaking a sweat and that was probably the tamest thing in the party.

One player did a Beast Shaper/Vivisectionist Alchemist combined with a Synthesist Summoner. He ended up with 30 arms each wielding Kukris and pounce. At level 15 his average damage was north of 1,500 and by the time we hit 20 his turns took a half hour to resolve and his per-round damage was 4,000-6,000. I can tell you that of the demon lords presented thus far (there have been stats for four of them) not a single one could withstand that. Even if you combined all of the health of all of the demon lords in the entire campaign I don't think it would break 4,000.

Now it doesn't sound like your characters are going that route and perhaps if you are careful about how you do Gestalt you might work it so that it's about the right power level, but be weary of that Synthesist. He will very likely do more damage in a round than any single monster has HP.


My special ladyfriend and i are playing this AP with her as a oracle/paladin. Nothing fancy. And i made a gunslinger/inquisitor to help her along in the combats. I would say until now she has been having an ok time of it. Just finished worldwound excursion and she had a hard time with the grey garrison. But aside from that no big issues. I should note she's not a newbie but doesn't have much pathfinder experience. So she isn't overpowered. However the gunslinger inquisitor on the other hand. Kinda powerful, might have issues later on but right now he's a little bad ass. Thats my experience til now.


450+ Damage per round is pretty standard for any decent physical character.

Caster are a bit behind and are especially challenged because everyone and their mother in mythic has SR, high save, resistances, immunities.

On the other end, Physical class have to bypass AC (which is always weirdly low on mobs) and DR that either is bypassed easily or does not matter anymore when you hit for 200+ damage per attack.

Mobs HP in Mythic are way too low, especially toward the end, the highest I have seen are around 700+ HP, which is probably like half a round.

Something is wrong with Mythic Damage at high level, especially from physical classes, you don't even have to try, just a regular Mythic Barbarian, Paladin, Rogue, Ninja or whatever will kill any "end boss" in 1 or 2 round max.


I would say be careful. I haven't run Wrath yet, and it's going to be a toss up as to whether I'm going to. I've read the first four books now, and I have been quite unimpressed with the difficulty level of this AP. Despite using Mythic system, it doesn't appear to be incredibly mythic in its difficulty. You might almost be able to play this AP with two regular characters and pull it off if their choices were decent.

Besides that, you get so much help throughout the AP that many encounters would be trivialized. The development team for Paizo said it would take the Mythic system to make this AP work. So far, the Mythic system has only appeared to make it a cakewalk. I'm really hoping the difficulty level escalates tenfold for the last two books, or I'm afraid this one might be a wash.

In short, I'd be wary of gestalt. Luckily, any campaign can be fun with the right people around the table. =)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I'd either let them run two characters each, or have them start with a 25-point build and get the Leadership Feat free at level 5. Gestalts are just too broken.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sub-Creator wrote:

I would say be careful. I haven't run Wrath yet, and it's going to be a toss up as to whether I'm going to. I've read the first four books now, and I have been quite unimpressed with the difficulty level of this AP. Despite using Mythic system, it doesn't appear to be incredibly mythic in its difficulty. You might almost be able to play this AP with two regular characters and pull it off if their choices were decent.

Besides that, you get so much help throughout the AP that many encounters would be trivialized. The development team for Paizo said it would take the Mythic system to make this AP work. So far, the Mythic system has only appeared to make it a cakewalk. I'm really hoping the difficulty level escalates tenfold for the last two books, or I'm afraid this one might be a wash.

That's pretty much my impression, too. I am very tempted to ask my players this Tuesday (when we begin to play again after the holidays) if they even want to use the mythic rules at all, partially or fully. The last session they just finished adventure one, so all is open in that regard.


magnuskn wrote:
That's pretty much my impression, too. I am very tempted to ask my players this Tuesday (when we begin to play again after the holidays) if they even want to use the mythic rules at all, partially or fully. The last session they just finished adventure one, so all is open in that regard.

Isn't your party made of 6 players though? Anything would be easy with so many players.

Also the module 1 is obviously not the right one to decide if you want to use the Mythic rules or not, because well the player are anyway not mythic in that module.


Lauraliane wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
That's pretty much my impression, too. I am very tempted to ask my players this Tuesday (when we begin to play again after the holidays) if they even want to use the mythic rules at all, partially or fully. The last session they just finished adventure one, so all is open in that regard.

Isn't your party made of 6 players though? Anything would be easy with so many players.

Also the module 1 is obviously not the right one to decide if you want to use the Mythic rules or not, because well the player are anyway not mythic in that module.

I think his point here was that because the players haven't actually become mythic yet, they wouldn't have to retcon anything by deciding not to go with mythic now.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Exactly that and, yep, I have six players and that alone is making the party very good. Having veterans of the game also helps them. So, given how the mythic opponents so far have been mostly "eh", I feel tempted to chuck the mythic rules completely for the player characters or have them get only a vastly reduced version of mythic power. We'll see how they feel about it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, that went with mixed results. Final result is that we will use mythic rules mostly as written, with the caveats that mythic power is restricted to 3 + tier, it refreshes at a rate of 1d4 points per day and the attribute bonuses each second tier will be completely waived. It certainly makes the use of mythic abilities more tactical, since the players can't rely on completely replenishing their mythic power each day. And the lack of ultra-high attributes makes monster saves a bit less laughable.


magnuskn wrote:
Well, that went with mixed results. Final result is that we will use mythic rules mostly as written, with the caveats that mythic power is restricted to 3 + tier, it refreshes at a rate of 1d4 points per day and the attribute bonuses each second tier will be completely waived. It certainly makes the use of mythic abilities more tactical, since the players can't rely on completely replenishing their mythic power each day. And the lack of ultra-high attributes makes monster saves a bit less laughable.

Considering uses of mythic Power are required to do just about ANY of the silly stuff a Mythic character can do, restricting the rate at which Mythic Power recharges and the max per day will have a pretty significant impact on the campaign. You may want to start a blog thread detailing your progress here, as I would be very interested in following it with those modifications. Also I would like to know how the characters do with the reduced stats.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

That sounds doable. Next week the real "mythic" part starts (so far they only had two mass combat encounters in Sword of Valor), so I can try to start a thread then.


Yeah I m quite curious too, because seeing the stats of some demon lord, I am not sure how a non-mythic party can even hope to survive.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Actually, seeing the stats of the published demon lords, I was mostly wondering how they could survive a complete round of combat against a level 20 party. Conclusion: They can't, except maybe Nocticula.

Scarab Sages

Against a fresh party, probably not.

I hold out hope that the party won't have the ability to rest on their push to a demon lord and will show up with less than half a tank of gas, to make it an acceptable fight.

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