James Jacobs Creative Director |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I invented the feat—my philosophy was that since the feat's really good that it needed a prerequisite, and since the whole point of the feat is to let you use a scimitar as a finessable weapon, making Weapon Finess a prereq makes sense.
Originally, I had hoped this feat would spawn a similar type of feat where various other weapons could be associated with world flavor to give similar bonuses for in-world fighting styles, but that's really not yet taken off, alas.
Umbriere Moonwhisper |
Indeed, weapon finesse is just a feat tax for dervish dance. I suggest a house rule where dervish dance can be used with any weapon that you also have weapon finesse with.
i agree with that idea and also usually allow it to open up 1 handed weapons from the light and heavy blades weapon groups as well.
Umbriere Moonwhisper |
I invented the feat—my philosophy was that since the feat's really good that it needed a prerequisite, and since the whole point of the feat is to let you use a scimitar as a finessable weapon, making Weapon Finess a prereq makes sense.
Originally, I had hoped this feat would spawn a similar type of feat where various other weapons could be associated with world flavor to give similar bonuses for in-world fighting styles, but that's really not yet taken off, alas.
a lot of the opened up feats tend to be homebrew based adaptions of dervish dance that all seem to require 2 ranks of perform (Dance) and weapon finesse
one thing weekly william does, is open it up to work with any light or 1handed weapon from the light blades and heavy blades group that can be used in a similar manner. as long as you are proficient in the weapon you are using.
common weapon choices include Wakazashi or Daggers for Ninja, Katana or Wakazshi for Samurai, Daggers and Gladiuses for rogues, Longswords, Gladiuses, or Kukri's for Fighters,
opening up the extra weapon choices for the lone feat hasn't really disturbed game balance at all. we even went so far as to allow 2WF and Dervish Dance to be combineable to simulate variants of the Florentine and it wasn't really a major issue.
Aberrant Templar |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:a feat for Int to ATK and DMG with daggers (and other small and generally sneaky weapons) or a feat for WIS to attack with ranged weapons would be nice too.What about Cha? Why is Cha always left behind? :(
It's almost as if nobody likes Charisma.
How ironic.
Nicos |
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:a feat for Int to ATK and DMG with daggers (and other small and generally sneaky weapons) or a feat for WIS to attack with ranged weapons would be nice too.What about Cha? Why is Cha always left behind? :(
becaue it does not make sense at all...Only a munchkin would propose that, you should be asha..oh it is lemmy, what I was saying? :)
Gwen Smith |
a feat for Int to ATK and DMG with daggers (and other small and generally sneaky weapons) or a feat for WIS to attack with ranged weapons would be nice too.
Not a feat, but Zen Archer gets to use Wis instead of Dex to attack with bows starting at 3rd level. (They also get Point Blank Master at 3rd level, so it's a worthwhile dip overall.)
Lemmy |
Lemmy wrote:becaue it does not make sense at all...Only a munchkin would propose that, you should be asha..oh it is lemmy, what I was saying? :)Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:a feat for Int to ATK and DMG with daggers (and other small and generally sneaky weapons) or a feat for WIS to attack with ranged weapons would be nice too.What about Cha? Why is Cha always left behind? :(
Yeah, because Cha is such a powerful attribute...
redward |
Nicos wrote:Yeah, because Cha is such a powerful attribute...Lemmy wrote:becaue it does not make sense at all...Only a munchkin would propose that, you should be asha..oh it is lemmy, what I was saying? :)Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:a feat for Int to ATK and DMG with daggers (and other small and generally sneaky weapons) or a feat for WIS to attack with ranged weapons would be nice too.What about Cha? Why is Cha always left behind? :(
I don't know, I have often found a good Diplomacy score can end a combat before it even starts.
Nicos |
Nicos wrote:Yeah, because Cha is such a powerful attribute...Lemmy wrote:becaue it does not make sense at all...Only a munchkin would propose that, you should be asha..oh it is lemmy, what I was saying? :)Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:a feat for Int to ATK and DMG with daggers (and other small and generally sneaky weapons) or a feat for WIS to attack with ranged weapons would be nice too.What about Cha? Why is Cha always left behind? :(
It is for paladin among others.
Probably the best example is a lunar oracle that would just dump dex and str to 7 have charisma 20 and have a +5 to attack, damg, ac and refelx saves, and of course, a great spellcasting stat.
Lemmy |
It is for paladin among others.
Probably the best example is a lunar oracle that would just dump dex and str to 7 have charisma 20 and have a +5 to attack, damg, ac and refelx saves.
You can say the same thing about every single attribute score. They all are a great attribute for one class or another...
But some of them are universally useful and others are often used as dump stats...
Nicos |
Nicos wrote:It is for paladin among others.
Probably the best example is a lunar oracle that would just dump dex and str to 7 have charisma 20 and have a +5 to attack, damg, ac and refelx saves.
You can say the same thing about every single attribute score. They all are a great attribute for one class or another...
But some of them are universally useful and others are often used as dump stats...
Still i can not see why a good charisma would help you to attack better with a weapon. lIKE A FEAT THAT LET YOU USE YOUR STRNGH to add to the number of skill points, IMHO, it just do not fit.
LoneKnave |
Lemmy wrote:Nicos wrote:Yeah, because Cha is such a powerful attribute...Lemmy wrote:becaue it does not make sense at all...Only a munchkin would propose that, you should be asha..oh it is lemmy, what I was saying? :)Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:a feat for Int to ATK and DMG with daggers (and other small and generally sneaky weapons) or a feat for WIS to attack with ranged weapons would be nice too.What about Cha? Why is Cha always left behind? :(It is for paladin among others.
Probably the best example is a lunar oracle that would just dump dex and str to 7 have charisma 20 and have a +5 to attack, damg, ac and refelx saves.
And you know? This would be not strong at all. Single god-stat characters already exist (with DEX, they can dump CHA and be at the same spot) and they are not OP at all; if this oracle would be strong it would be from everything else aside from having a respectable attack option. He's literally flushing feats down the toilet to downgrade himself from full-caster into a combatant, (although he does get the benefit of not being as MAD as if he did it without feats I guess).
Ask yourself: what is he going to do with his leftover stat points? Strength and Dexterity are not important anymore so what will he get? More WIS for saves I guess? More INT for skill points? CON for HP, but Oracles do that anyway I guess.
People just see god-stats and think it's forgone conclusion that it's broken for warrior types, when it really doesn't matter at all. Meanwhile, casters are already running on basically one stat and nobody seems to care.
Aberrant Templar |
Still i can not see why a good charisma would help you to attack better with a weapon.
The most charismatic and witty swordfighter in a movie pretty much always beats the crap out of the silent and humorless enemies. Using charisma to gain bonuses to hit or damage fits very well with Hollywood swashbuckling films. And Hollywood films in general.
ryric RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 |
I see it like this:
Weapon Finesse lets you use Dex to hit with some weapons.
Dervish Dance upgrades Weapon Finesse to make it usable with scimitars, as well as adding Dex to damage.
So Dervish Dance, in my head, follows directly from Weapon Finesse, sort of like an "Improved Weapon Finesse" limited to one weapon.
It would be nice to see versions come out for other weapons, though. I'm tired of scimitars being the be-all end-all of one handed weapons.
Off the top of my head it would be nice to have versions usable with the staff and spear, for example.
Nicos |
He's literally flushing feats down the toilet to downgrade himself from full-caster into a combatant, (although he does get the benefit of not being as MAD as if he did it without feats I guess).
No he does not, he still is full full-caster, and a respectable combatant, without sacrifizing really anything(an oracle revelation and one or two feats).
Nicos |
If he tries to actually attack (as in, actually using that to-hit and damage he spent feats on instead of spending feats on better defences or whatever) instead of casting he is intentionally handicapping himself, especially past mid level.
Because no group need to do weapon base damage?, lets have to full spellcaster and a combatant for free.
Avatar-1 |
Originally, I had hoped this feat would spawn a similar type of feat where various other weapons could be associated with world flavor to give similar bonuses for in-world fighting styles, but that's really not yet taken off, alas.
Push this idea - I love it.
I had to pick up this feat as a last-ditch effort to rebuild an underpowered character and it's been a lifeline. The problem is it breaks my character concept (think Indiana Jones style archaeologist).
More similarly flavoured feats with similar mechanics might have kept my character's concept more intact and still saved my character's build.
Lemmy |
Nicos wrote:Still i can not see why a good charisma would help you to attack better with a weapon.The most charismatic and witty swordfighter in a movie pretty much always beats the crap out of the silent and humorless enemies. Using charisma to gain bonuses to hit or damage fits very well with Hollywood swashbuckling films. And Hollywood films in general.
Also feinting... Not Feint the underwhelming Combat Maneuver... just feinting.
Through a series of misleading movements and distracting banter, you trick your opponent into lowering his defenses, making it easier to strike him where he is most vulnerable.
Makes more sense than adding Wisdom to attack/damage.
Cyrad RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
I'm not really keen on the idea of a feat can let you use mental statistics in place of physical statistics for basic attacks. It makes me think too much of 4th Edition where any statistic could possibly be used for basic attacks. At least the oracle revelations that let you use Charisma for dodge bonuses were supernatural abilities that made sense flavor-wise.
In my system, I created a combat style feat that allowed you to use any one-handed weapon as a finesse-able weapon.
I invented the feat—my philosophy was that since the feat's really good that it needed a prerequisite, and since the whole point of the feat is to let you use a scimitar as a finessable weapon, making Weapon Finess a prereq makes sense.
Originally, I had hoped this feat would spawn a similar type of feat where various other weapons could be associated with world flavor to give similar bonuses for in-world fighting styles, but that's really not yet taken off, alas.
I honestly want to see more of this. I love mechanics that make use of deity favored weapons.
Wiggz |
Apparently in the ACG next year we will be getting a core feat that allows you to get DEX to damage with any weapon, be it only one of your choice.
Weapon Finesse makes sense in the fact that you are trying to get DEX going, and it has the DEX prerequisite.
Never liked Weapon Finesse as a feat.
We changed it to a Weapon trait like Two-Handed or Reach and applied it to all light weapons as well as some special cases like Rapiers and Whips. We've never looked back.
We've also made it so that that weapon trait also used Dex for damage as well, and that's been a little more debated thus far.
Rapiers, Whips, Longbows all use Dex for attack and damage. Battle Axes, Staves and Greatswords all use Strength for attack and damage. Made perfect sense to us and we haven't found that its unbalanced anything, though the move did necessitate a few tweaks to other affected rules. No Strength damage bonus for composite bows for instance, or the removal of the pre-req in the case of the OP's point.
Nicos |
Aberrant Templar wrote:Nicos wrote:Still i can not see why a good charisma would help you to attack better with a weapon.The most charismatic and witty swordfighter in a movie pretty much always beats the crap out of the silent and humorless enemies. Using charisma to gain bonuses to hit or damage fits very well with Hollywood swashbuckling films. And Hollywood films in general.
Also feinting... Not Feint the underwhelming Combat Maneuver... just feinting.
Through a series of misleading movements and distracting banter, you trick your opponent into lowering his defenses, making it easier to strike him where he is most vulnerable.
Makes more sense than adding Wisdom to attack/damage.
Yes, you use your cha (and skills) to gain a bonus (well, that woudl be if you can full attack after it and onot just a standar action)
either way, you need to finish it with str and/or dex, no example would won the fight just by smiling or by talking, at least it woudl be highly unusual and not something easy to repeat.
It woudl be great if there were more optiosn to use the skills like bluff in combat, but ading cha to attack and damage it is at leat weird.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
James Jacobs wrote:Originally, I had hoped this feat would spawn a similar type of feat where various other weapons could be associated with world flavor to give similar bonuses for in-world fighting styles, but that's really not yet taken off, alas.Push this idea - I love it.
I had to pick up this feat as a last-ditch effort to rebuild an underpowered character and it's been a lifeline. The problem is it breaks my character concept (think Indiana Jones style archaeologist).
More similarly flavoured feats with similar mechanics might have kept my character's concept more intact and still saved my character's build.
Been pushing the idea for a while, in fact.
Lemmy |
Yes, you use your cha (and skills) to gain a bonus (well, that woudl be if you can full attack after it and onot just a standar action)
either way, you need to finish it with str and/or dex, no example would won the fight just by smiling or by talking, at least it woudl be highly unusual and not something easy to repeat.
It woudl be great if there were more optiosn to use the skills like bluff in combat, but ading cha to attack and damage it is at leat weird.
I never said anything about winning "just by smiling or talking"... Cha to attack is easy to justify, Cha to damage is a bit harder, but not impossible...
Anyway, this discussion is boring. We are just walking in circles... Back to DD.
master_marshmallow |
master_marshmallow wrote:Apparently in the ACG next year we will be getting a core feat that allows you to get DEX to damage with any weapon, be it only one of your choice.Where did you got that information? Gotta say, this sounds quite interesting.
Stephen confirmed it in the Revised Swashbuckler thread.
Umbriere Moonwhisper |
Int to Attack and Damage, could be given a bit of a Sherlock Holmes flavor, Studying their patterns until you find a good opportunity to land a well timed and especially damaging stroke.
it would be primarily used by Alchemists, Investigators, INT based skill Bards, Casting based Magi, and rogues whom Overprioritze Intelligence because they want lots of skills. all of which, are fairly Sherlock Holmesy Characters.
limiting to daggers, light crossbows, shortbows, and other sneaky or concealable weapons helps keep it balanced.
Umbriere Moonwhisper |
the ACG has multiple good classes. they merely will have more variety of Dex to Damage feats that don't require you to use the most overpowered one handed weapon in the game.
i hope the requirements and restrictions on the new Dex to Damage Feats are a little lighter. allowing such things as Florentine and Nitto Ryu (Both are styles that involve dual wielding, the former used twin slashing Sabres and the latter, twin Katanas or Twin Wakazashi), the Rapier/Dagger combo or even such classic things as Twin Daggers (a Classic Style) or Sabre and Buckler (Another common swashbuckling method)
master_marshmallow |
the ACG has multiple good classes. they merely will have more variety of Dex to Damage feats that don't require you to use the most overpowered one handed weapon in the game.
i hope the requirements and restrictions on the new Dex to Damage Feats are a little lighter. allowing such things as Florentine and Nitto Ryu (Both are styles that involve dual wielding, the former used twin slashing Sabres and the latter, twin Katanas or Twin Wakazashi), the Rapier/Dagger combo or even such classic things as Twin Daggers (a Classic Style) or Sabre and Buckler (Another common swashbuckling method)
I do believe the implication was that you must be able to use weapon finesse on the weapon to take the new feat on in order to get DEX to damage.
They specifically said that Swash's would get more utility than anyone else out of this feat, which makes sense considering slashing grace allows the swash to essentially pick any one handed slasher and with the new feat, get DEX to damage with whichever weapon he picked for slashing grace.Definitely a powerful ability and well worth the feats imo.
Umbriere Moonwhisper |
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:the ACG has multiple good classes. they merely will have more variety of Dex to Damage feats that don't require you to use the most overpowered one handed weapon in the game.
i hope the requirements and restrictions on the new Dex to Damage Feats are a little lighter. allowing such things as Florentine and Nitto Ryu (Both are styles that involve dual wielding, the former used twin slashing Sabres and the latter, twin Katanas or Twin Wakazashi), the Rapier/Dagger combo or even such classic things as Twin Daggers (a Classic Style) or Sabre and Buckler (Another common swashbuckling method)
I do believe the implication was that you must be able to use weapon finesse on the weapon to take the new feat on in order to get DEX to damage.
They specifically said that Swash's would get more utility than anyone else out of this feat, which makes sense considering slashing grace allows the swash to essentially pick any one handed slasher and with the new feat, get DEX to damage with whichever weapon he picked for slashing grace.Definitely a powerful ability and well worth the feats imo.
weapon finesse is a fine requirement on it's own. though i hope it allows for such things as dual wielding to represent Florentine and Nitto Ryu, blade and buckler to represent other classic swashbuckling styles, and so on. but i think the BAB and Skill requirements should be light enough that it can be taken by a 1st level human rogue.
my problem with Dervish Dance, is the minimum 2nd level requirement, which leaves it unavailable till 3rd. there is also the fact it fails to emulate the classic Dervish Weapon Selection (Twin Scimitars) and fails to accomodate many historical and fantastical dueling styles such as the Florentine's Twin Sbares, the Rapier and Dagger of the Musketeer Era, or the Blade and Buckler Style used in a variety of classic films.
master_marshmallow |
master_marshmallow wrote:Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:the ACG has multiple good classes. they merely will have more variety of Dex to Damage feats that don't require you to use the most overpowered one handed weapon in the game.
i hope the requirements and restrictions on the new Dex to Damage Feats are a little lighter. allowing such things as Florentine and Nitto Ryu (Both are styles that involve dual wielding, the former used twin slashing Sabres and the latter, twin Katanas or Twin Wakazashi), the Rapier/Dagger combo or even such classic things as Twin Daggers (a Classic Style) or Sabre and Buckler (Another common swashbuckling method)
I do believe the implication was that you must be able to use weapon finesse on the weapon to take the new feat on in order to get DEX to damage.
They specifically said that Swash's would get more utility than anyone else out of this feat, which makes sense considering slashing grace allows the swash to essentially pick any one handed slasher and with the new feat, get DEX to damage with whichever weapon he picked for slashing grace.Definitely a powerful ability and well worth the feats imo.
weapon finesse is a fine requirement on it's own. though i hope it allows for such things as dual wielding to represent Florentine and Nitto Ryu, blade and buckler to represent other classic swashbuckling styles, and so on. but i think the BAB and Skill requirements should be light enough that it can be taken by a 1st level human rogue.
my problem with Dervish Dance, is the minimum 2nd level requirement, which leaves it unavailable till 3rd. there is also the fact it fails to emulate the classic Dervish Weapon Selection (Twin Scimitars) and fails to accomodate many historical and fantastical dueling styles such as the Florentine's Twin Sbares, the Rapier and Dagger of the Musketeer Era, or the Blade and Buckler Style used in a variety of classic films.
I agree with this 100%
williamoak |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Avatar-1 wrote:Been pushing the idea for a while, in fact.James Jacobs wrote:Originally, I had hoped this feat would spawn a similar type of feat where various other weapons could be associated with world flavor to give similar bonuses for in-world fighting styles, but that's really not yet taken off, alas.Push this idea - I love it.
I had to pick up this feat as a last-ditch effort to rebuild an underpowered character and it's been a lifeline. The problem is it breaks my character concept (think Indiana Jones style archaeologist).
More similarly flavoured feats with similar mechanics might have kept my character's concept more intact and still saved my character's build.
I am a huge fan of dex-fighters in general. The first thing I would like to see finessed is the sawtooth sabre; I know you've professed being for that before M. Jacobs, and it would be really nice because it would make the "crimson assassin" (and a number of other PrCs) that seem to be built with dex-fighting in mind.
Edit: I, starting to GM myself soon, and I will be permitting a "greater weapon finesse". Though I dont mind the idea of "dex weapons & str weapons" either.
Umbriere Moonwhisper |
i'd also like to see the Dagger, whip, rapier, wakazashi, shortsword/gladius, hanbo, unarmed strike, katana, elven curveblade, glaive, and longspear get dex based options for both attack and damage in feat form
finessable glaive and longspear give that Wushu Feel and could be a good addition for a Swashbuckler Archetype focused around the Style. could be adapted to use any spear or polearm
Umbranus |
I invented the feat—my philosophy was that since the feat's really good that it needed a prerequisite, and since the whole point of the feat is to let you use a scimitar as a finessable weapon, making Weapon Finess a prereq makes sense.
I liked this idea from the first time I've seen this feat. And that was partly BECAUSE it set weapon finesse as a prerequisite that would not help with the weapon used.
Naruto Uzumaki |
*Puffs in*
James Jacobs wrote:I liked this idea from the first time I've seen this feat. And that was partly BECAUSE it set weapon finesse as a prerequisite that would not help with the weapon used.I invented the feat—my philosophy was that since the feat's really good that it needed a prerequisite, and since the whole point of the feat is to let you use a scimitar as a finessable weapon, making Weapon Finess a prereq makes sense.
Totally agree with this.
*Puffs out*