For easy reference, the darkness spell description;
This spell causes an object to radiate darkness out to a 20-foot radius. This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step, from bright light to normal light, from normal light to dim light, or from dim light to darkness. This spell has no effect in an area that is already dark. Creatures with light vulnerability or sensitivity take no penalties in normal light. All creatures gain concealment (20% miss chance) in dim light. All creatures gain total concealment (50% miss chance) in darkness. Creatures with darkvision can see in an area of dim light or darkness without penalty. Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell's effect is blocked until the covering is removed.
This spell does not stack with itself. Darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level.
I’ve seen most people interpret this as an orb of inky blackness. But, nowhere in the description does it say anything like that.
What it does say is that illumination in the area drops. But it doesn’t say light passing through the area drops…
It simply gets darker, while inside.
I think it is easier to picture, perhaps, with an example. Say it a dim starlit night, and you cast darkness, dropping the light level in a 20ft radius to dark. Now, you cannot see anything within the area, but, couldn’t you still see the stars?
Similar example, using the reverse example, to demonstrate further;
Say you are looking down into a incredibly deep pit, looking down you see only blackness. Standing on the edge, you cast Daylight. Now you are surrounded by a 60ft radius of bright light. Within this radius everything is absolutely perfectly clear, but looking down… you would still see blackness.
So, with the way light and darkness spells actually say they work… why do people treat darkness spells more like mist/fog spell than actually like a change in illumination?
Another example, for clarity.
Guy A and Guy B both have torches. It is an otherwise dark night out. They are standing 60 ft away from each other in an open field. Right in between them is a darkness spell.
If this is interpreted as inky blackness, they cannot see each other. If it is interpreted as per the spell description, they can see each other just fine.
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I think it goes back to the older ways darkness spells were handled... pretty much a black blob of shadow stuff. As is I believe it carries over because of the lighting rules on concealment and the fact that the darkness spells have a radius, so it is sort of like a cloud of shadows. The fact that it says it changes the illumination level leaves out the "how", it creates a sphere of darkness around the emanation point, sort of like a negative lantern, with a perfectly even amount of negative illumination (Unlike a mundane light source that gradually diminishes as if gets further from the source, this remains even through out).
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Another example, for clarity.
Guy A and Guy B both have torches. It is an otherwise dark night out. They are standing 60 ft away from each other in an open field. Right in between them is a darkness spell.
If this is interpreted as inky blackness, they cannot see each other. If it is interpreted as per the spell description, they can see each other just fine.
Well, they can see each other just as fine as two people looking at each other through a very dark area can. Remember the darkness is magical and thus not diminished by the torchlight. They would basically be looking through a filter of dark... kind of like having a huge sphere of dark tinted glass in the way.
I think it goes back to the older ways darkness spells were handled... pretty much a black blob of shadow stuff. As is I believe it carries over because of the lighting rules on concealment and the fact that the darkness spells have a radius, so it is sort of like a cloud of shadows. The fact that it says it changes the illumination level leaves out the "how", it creates a sphere of darkness around the emanation point, sort of like a negative lantern, with a perfectly even amount of negative illumination (Unlike a mundane light source that gradually diminishes as if gets further from the source, this remains even through out).
I get that! But, like in the last example, the shed darkness doesn’t radiate out far enough to hit either Guy A or Guy B. Nor would it radiate out far enough to hit the stars. Why is their light not seen?
You can still see areas of darkness beyond the radius of a light spell. You should still see the lights outside an area of a darkness spell. No?
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It still provides a "filter" of sorts. In the area of the spell is a dome of unnatural darkness, and if sufficient mundane (torches/bonfires/lanterns) light sources were arrayed around that darkness to completely illuminate an entire field, their light would still not penetrate it and so looking through it would still have the same effect.
Well, they can see each other just as fine as two people looking at each other through a very dark area can. Remember the darkness is magical and thus not diminished by the torchlight. They would basically be looking through a filter of dark... kind of like having a huge sphere of dark tinted glass in the way.Another example, for clarity.
Guy A and Guy B both have torches. It is an otherwise dark night out. They are standing 60 ft away from each other in an open field. Right in between them is a darkness spell.
If this is interpreted as inky blackness, they cannot see each other. If it is interpreted as per the spell description, they can see each other just fine.
Light spells don't work this way, and they are the exact inverse of a darkness spell.
Check it out:
Guy A and Guy B both standing in a field, it is a completely black dark night out. They are standing 100 ft away from each other in an open field. Right in between them is a light spell.
Can they see each other? By the rules, no. If you interpret 'magical illumination' like everyone does for dark spell, then yes...they could, because they are 'looking through' an area of magical light.
But that is silly for light spell… and standard for dark spells? The spell doesn’t say it has any effect on two people ‘who are not in the area of effect’.
Okay, another example;
It is noon, an open field, Guy A and Guy B are standing 150ft away from each other. This would be bright light, and they would see each other fully illuminated.
Now, deeper darkness is cast directly between them, so a 60ft radius drops two light levels to dim.
Does Guy A and Guy B see one another as dim now? Or do they still see each other as they are, in bright light, and only see a big circular shadow on the ground between them?
Based on what the spell ‘actually’ says, they should still see each other in bright light, and see a shadow on the ground.
Neither of them is in the spell effect, why would the spell have an effect on them?
Okay, another example;
It is noon, an open field, Guy A and Guy B are standing 150ft away from each other. This would be bright light, and they would see each other fully illuminated.
Now, deeper darkness is cast directly between them, so a 60ft radius drops two light levels to dim.
Does Guy A and Guy B see one another as dim now? Or do they still see each other as they are, in bright light, and only see a big circular shadow on the ground between them?
Based on what the spell ‘actually’ says, they should still see each other in bright light, and see a shadow on the ground.
Neither of them is in the spell effect, why would the spell have an effect on them?
This also means that someone walking around in the deeper darkness would have a bright illumination shadow, in the above example. Because their body blocks the darkness being radiated from the center. And the part of them facing the closest edge of the effect would still be lit, because the darkness radiating out doesn't pass through solid objects.
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The spell effects an area, not the people. Just because you are not in the area does not mean it stops doing it's thing. Also, it is not a flat area, it has a 60'radius but that radius is not a flat disc, it is 3 dimensional. That darkness is still there for everyone to "see".
Also, as Darkness is a higher level spell than obscuring mist and can be seen through with Darkvision (normally), I see plenty of justification for it being a static visual obstruction. It may not make things beyond it's radius darker, but it is still in the way of a clear line of sight if you try to look through it.
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This also means that someone walking around in the deeper darkness would have a bright illumination shadow, in the above example. Because their body blocks the darkness being radiated from the center. And the part of them facing the closest edge of the effect would still be lit, because the darkness radiating out doesn't pass through solid objects.
Correct, or some sort of reverse shadow of some sort. It states that if the object the spell is cast on is covered by a light proof container, it blocks the spell.
*Depending on if the person was actually light proof, that is.
The spell effects an area, not the people. Just because you are not in the area does not mean it stops doing it's thing. Also, it is not a flat area, it has a 60'radius but that radius is not a flat disc, it is 3 dimensional. That darkness is still there for everyone to "see".
Also, as Darkness is a higher level spell than obscuring mist and can be seen through with Darkvision (normally), I see plenty of justification for it being a static visual obstruction. It may not make things beyond it's radius darker, but it is still in the way of a clear line of sight if you try to look through it.
But...
Light cast on an empty field at night creates a circle of light on the ground.
And... that's it.
Darkness cast on an empty field during the day would create a circle of shadow on the ground... and that's it.
The spell doesn’t say the air is filled with dark fine mist, it creates the inverse of light, ie darkness, and the darkness ‘radiates’ from the center of the spell. If this darkness doesn’t ‘hit’ something, how is anyone going to ‘see’ the effect?
Light has to ‘hit’ something to see that there is light there. Darkness would require the same.
If light passes through the area just fine, then how does someone in an area of darkness have total concealment if they're silhouetting any light source from the opposite side of them?
If they're standing on a hill at night, you could see them because the patch of stars directly behind them would be occluded.
I think the question could be made clearer with a diagram:
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,
,
,
#####DDD#####
####DDDDD####
#P##DDDDD##E#
####DDDDD####
#####DDD#####
P is our PC.
E is the enemy.
D is the area of a darkness spell.
# is the ground, in normal light conditions.
If I'm interpreting this right, the original question was, "can P see E as per normal light conditions"?
Think about it. The darkness is preventing light from passing through the radius. You wouldn't be able to see through to the other side, because there is no light reflecting off of whatever object you are trying to see.
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Anyone think to read the FAQ already in place?
Darkness: Can I see light sources through an area of darkness?
No. If a darkness spell reduces the light in the area to actual darkness (or supernatural darkness, if using a more powerful spell), you can't see through the darkness into what is beyond it.—Pathfinder Design Team, 05/09/13
Wow... ummm.. that kind of ruins a character concept I had...
Talk to your GM then. Perhaps they'd be willing to adjust the spell or make a different spell available (possibly at a different level). If it's important to the character you want to play, a lot of GMs can be fairly flexible.
Jiggy, you know people don't check FAQs before asking questions. :)
The question was more "Why do people think it is an orb of inky darkness" than "is it an orb of inky darkness". It is whatever a particular DM says it is, in the end... but, I was wondering why people read the description, and think 'oh, an orb of blackness that cannot be seen through', when the description makes no mention of the spell working in that way.
Actually read the description of the spell. Where does it say anything that causes someone to say, "oh, solid black mist, got it". It just isn't in there.
Dark air. That is what the spell creates, when cast in the air. What does dark air look like?
Why? It radiates darkness. Darkness is being radiated. So, the entire area is filled with darkness. Cool... so... it is dark air.
And dark air looks like what? I'm sure everyone here has seen dark air before. What does it look like?
Also note the line "This spell has no effect in an area that is already dark." Think on this line for a moment.
If two people were holding candles in the middle of a field in the dark of night, 100ft away from each other, they could see each other's candles. If you cast darkness in between them, in the area of already dark field. Then... they should still be able to see each other, because the spell has no effect, and it has no effect because...
It is 'already' dark there...
If light doesn't pass 'through' an area of darkness... then you can do some really weird things with these spells.
For starters, their area of effect would actually be a whole lot bigger.
If an area of a darkness spell applies to lighting effects beyond its range, as it is being said here, and the faq... then it casts 'huge' shadows beyond the spell radius. And that is a nightmare to track, especially since there are no descriptions in the spell for how to handle this. (Because it doesn't say it does this at all)
The spell would darken the area, per spell description, but then you would have to draw out lines of origination for shadow effects of the spell beyond its radius too?
Ok, Guy in a room, a torch on the wall, and darkness cast in the middle.
#####DDD#####
####DDDDD####
T###DDDDD##G#
####DDDDD####
#####DDD#####
T: Torch
D: Darkness
G: Some guy
If the FAQ is correct, and what you guys are saying is correct...the area of the spell affects light sources outside of its area, in areas outside of its area...
Then the above example should look like... this?
#####DDDDDDDD
####DDDDDDDDD
T###DDDDDDDGD
####DDDDDDDDD
#####DDDDDDDD
So, even though the Torch is outside the spell effect, and the guy is outside the spell effect, both the torch's light and the guy are effected anyway and the reason is because?
So, even though the Torch is outside the spell effect, and the guy is outside the spell effect, both the torch's light and the guy are effected anyway and the reason is because?
Well, if I had to guess, I'd say the Darkness spell somehow "destroys" all light that enters the affected area (whatever happens to this light is anyone's guess, maybe it's obliterated, maybe it's teleported somewhere else, maybe it's transformed into some light spectrum we can't see... Whatever it is, that light is affected ass soon as it enters the spell's area of effect, since it's darker in there than it is outside the area of effect).
To travel from the torch to the guy, light has to go through the Darkness area, but once it goes there, it disappears, so it never reaches the guy's eye, which causes him to be unable to see anything on the other side of the Darkness area.
So... While the light is not being affected neither when it leaves the torch nor when it reaches the observer, it's still affected when it passes through the Darkness spell.
A similar situation would be a Wall of Fire spell between points A and B. You're not affected in either of those points, but if you go from one to another and through the Wall of Fire spell, you'd get burned. And the consequences of the spell (in this case, the burns you'd get from crossing a freaking wall of fire) would stick with you even after you left the spell's area of effect.
The Darkness spell does the same to light. It "destroys" (or whatever it is the spell does does) all light that enters its area of effect. The guy doesn't see the torch because the light from the torch never reaches his eyes. It's "destroyed" halfway through.
Just like your burn wounds wouldn't heal when you leave the Wall of Fire spell, light is not recreated after being "destroyed" by the Darkness spell.
Well, that's my theory, at least... Since this is magic we are talking about, I suppose my guess is as good as any...
So, even though the Torch is outside the spell effect, and the guy is outside the spell effect, both the torch's light and the guy are effected anyway and the reason is because?Well, if I had to guess, I'd say the Darkness spell somehow "destroys" all light that enters the affected area (whatever happens to this light is anyone's guess, maybe it's obliterated, maybe it's teleported somewhere else, maybe it's transformed into some light spectrum we can't see... Whatever it is, that light is affected ass soon as it enters the spell's area of effect, since it's darker in there than it is outside the area of effect).
To travel from the torch to the guy, light has to go through the Darkness area, but once it goes there, it disappears, so it never reaches the guy's eye, which causes him to be unable to see anything on the other side of the Darkness area.
So... While the light is not being affected neither when it leaves the torch nor when it reaches the observer, it's still affected when it passes through the Darkness spell.
A similar situation would be a Wall of Fire spell between points A and B. You're not affected in either of those points, but if you go from one to another and through the Wall of Fire spell, you'd get burned. And the consequences of the spell (in this case, the burns you'd get from crossing a freaking wall of fire) would stick with you even after you left the spell's area of effect.
The Darkness spell does the same to light. It "destroys" (or whatever it is the spell does does) all light that enters its area of effect. The guy doesn't see the torch because the light from the torch never reaches his eyes. It's "destroyed" halfway through.
Just like your burn wounds wouldn't heal when you leave the Wall of Fire spell, light is not recreated after being "destroyed" by the Darkness spell.
Well, that's my theory, at least... Since this is magic we are talking about, I suppose my guess is as good as any...
I get that this is what people say the spell does. But it isn't what the spell says it does...
To do what the FAQ says it does, it would have to emit anti-photons that only exist up to 20ft away. Actual light destroying particles that upon contact with light destroy each other. That isn't really what it says it does...
But, I guess it 'could' be interpreted that way if you aren't thinking in terms of physics. You would have to interpret emitting darkness as emitting light destroying particles... but, I guess that kind of distinction isn't for everyone.
It just seems like as unoriginal a reading of a magical effect as possible. Especially since the way the spell is written, what it actually describes, is sooo much cooler.
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There is no such thing as darkness. Darkness is simply the absence of light. It's a condition or status where the level of photons in the area is insufficient to strike an object and reflect back to the viewer's eye with enough intensity to be 'comprehended' by the viewer's brain.
There's a minor example you can see in real life: The two-way mirror. When there's a strong-enough light source on one side of the mirror, it 'cancels out' minimal light sources on the other side and causes the viewer to only see his own reflection from the lighted side. Darkness could function somewhat similarly, save that instead of being reflective, the outer side of the spell is light-absorptive in both directions.
There is no such thing as darkness. Darkness is simply the absence of light. It's a condition or status where the level of photons in the area is insufficient to strike an object and reflect back to the viewer's eye with enough intensity to be 'comprehended' by the viewer's brain.
There's a minor example you can see in real life: The two-way mirror. When there's a strong-enough light source on one side of the mirror, it 'cancels out' minimal light sources on the other side and causes the viewer to only see his own reflection from the lighted side. Darkness could function somewhat similarly, save that instead of being reflective, the outer side of the spell is light-absorptive in both directions.
Yeah and there is no such thing as magic either. Or anything capable of "radiating darkness"... (Is this just an issue where people don't know what 'radiate' means?)
Radiate:
To emit energy as rays or waves: to send out energy such as heat or light, in the form of rays or waves, or be sent out in this form
The spell describes the effects it has. Those are the effects of the spell.
'Normally' spells don't have additional effects added on to them in FAQ responses. But in the case of Darkness, it seems to.
For something to 'radiate darkness', it would have to mean that 'darkness' was a type of energy.
Given that this is a fantasy game we are talking about, with a whole host of diametrically aligned energy types, this part makes sense within the context of the game.
So, the object would then 'radiate darkness' in the 20ft radius. This would make everything the 'darkness energy' hit, get darker. Thus, illumination within the area drops. It gets harder to see, concealment, etc etc. (Like the spell says happens)
But dark air is pretty remarkably close to bright air. As air is remarkably close to 100% transparent.
And the spell makes no mention of blocking line of sight, or disrupting light passing through the area.
Only the FAQ response mentions this extra property to the spell. The spell itself does not.
I want to actually be able to picture this spell's effect in my mind. But the added bit from the 'dark air' blocking light passing through it, uniformly throughout the area, fizzles any attempt I make to conceptually visualizing it.
It is like trying to force a 3 dimensional object into a 2 dimensional form… but retain all of the 3 dimensional properties. It just doesn’t add up. The description of the spell + the FAQ response describes a mutually exclusive condition. There simply isn’t a visualization of this spell’s effect that does what it says it does. Unless the area of effect is compacted into a two dimensional space… and it most certainly doesn't say it does that.
I struggle to see what's so hard about this (though I would agree that the vision and light rules could do with a bit of a tidy-up to make them consistent).
Darkness lowers the light level so that trying to see anything within or through it causes the target to gain the benefits of the lowered light condition. It literally makes the area harder to see through. That's it. That's all it does. There may be edge cases, but I've yet to have a problem using that interpretation, and that's with an entire party with Darkvision of varying ranges against foes who like dropping darkness spells.
I struggle to see...
Ha.
Okay, if you are having difficulty with the issue I have, maybe you could help me resolve it?
Visualize the following.
One sunny spring afternoon, you are standing in a meadow, just enjoying the view. An evil wizard materializes in front of you, and then casts darkness.
Please describe the visual representation of this spell's effect.
Account for – A 20ft radius. An object being the point of origin for the effect. Lowering illumination within the area of effect by one step, uniformly one step, and only one step. For solid objects blocking the effect from the point of origin. It diminishing light that passes through it*. And please be sure that the description is in concordance with the effect being ‘radiating darkness’.
I can’t picture those things together. The closest thing to matching that can only exist in two dimensions, which I can picture. Help me out and describe it?
*FAQ addition
There interesting part is the end of the description:
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
Darkness ignores (?) the light contribution from mundane light sources, and magical light of lower level (e.g. light spells). So, in a dungeon setting it's quite powerful as the ambient light is not there without a Daylight spell. That means its very dark inside it. Also, level ties go to the darkness.
Now, is the Sun considered a nonmagical light source? What spell level is the light from a glowing sword?
There interesting part is the end of the description:
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.Darkness ignores (?) the light contribution from mundane light sources, and magical light of lower level (e.g. light spells). So, in a dungeon setting it's quite powerful as the ambient light is not there without a Daylight spell. That means its very dark inside it. Also, level ties go to the darkness.
Now, is the Sun considered a nonmagical light source? What spell level is the light from a glowing sword?
Ambient light is a the third type of light. It includes the sun, moon, stars etc. Natural lighting, so to speak.
Non-magical lighting is stuff like torches, campfires etc.
Supernatural effects are tricky, as are some magic item effects. They're magical, but they lack a definitive spell level. I've never seen an official rule on these.
Another fun aspect of Darkness, is that because it ignores non-magical light, fire within the area isn't even visible. A huge roaring bonfire would look like a bunch of wood, slowly blackening and withering. An area with magically burning flames (of lower/equal lvl than the darkness spell), masked by darkness, would cause absolute havoc. Things would burn to death, and not understand why/how or what to do about it…
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I struggle to see...Ha.
Okay, if you are having difficulty with the issue I have, maybe you could help me resolve it?
Visualize the following.
One sunny spring afternoon, you are standing in a meadow, just enjoying the view. An evil wizard materializes in front of you, and then casts darkness.
Please describe the visual representation of this spell's effect.
Account for – A 20ft radius. An object being the point of origin for the effect. Lowering illumination within the area of effect by one step, uniformly one step, and only one step. For solid objects blocking the effect from the point of origin. It diminishing light that passes through it*. And please be sure that the description is in concordance with the effect being ‘radiating darkness’.
I can’t picture those things together. The closest thing to matching that can only exist in two dimensions, which I can picture. Help me out and describe it?
*FAQ addition
The evil wizard casts darkness on a coin. In a 20 foot area around that coin, which is in his hand, the light level is lowered, making everything inside it harder to see. Solid objects block the effect, just as they block line of effect. If the coin is put inside a box, the darkness doesn't get through the box. Creatures don't block line of effect: just as the shadow of a colossal dragon has no effect on the light level, the "shadow" of the wizard has no effect on the light level. While the darkness has no effect on the light level on the far side of it, seeing through it is affected because sight is diminished through the sphere.
If it helps, picture this: a soap bubble. Your vision is diminished to anything inside the soap bubble, and anything you're trying to see through the soap bubble. The soap bubble expands out to 20 foot radius as long as it has line of effect, otherwise it conforms to the size of the object/room it is inside to a maximum of 20 foot radius.
I think of it as a black hole, to a certain extent. A person's perception of it is defined by the contrast and context of where it is placed. It isn't /actually/ a visible thing, bit someone can certainly see a black sphere based on what surrounds it, just like the stuff that surrounds a black hole allows us to see the radius of its horizon. I don't have any difficulty picturing the spell, but that's just me I suppose, heh.
As the spell states it just lowers the light level 1 step in an area of 20' radius.
You do not get to change the laws of physics here. Basically your eyes are light sensors, If you are looking through an area that is darker, then light must pass through that area to hit your eyes. If light passes through a darker area you see it darker. As someone said before it is like putting a piece of tinted glass in front of you.
Take this real world example. You have a car with lightly tinted windows. You are standing on one side of the car and a friend is standing on the other. You are both looking through the tinted windows. What you see is a darker version of your friend on the other side.
Also, the FAQ only applies when using the spell in dim light since lowering one step in dim light results in actual darkness.
I think a lot of peoples interpretation of the spell comes from the old spell:
3.5 Darkness
Paizo has changed it from that version.
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The 'issue' I see here has nothing to do with darkness, and everything to do with overthinking it. If you don't like the FAQ, house rule it. As it stands, the FAQ rule is clear on how it works.
The interesting thing is that unless it's daytime and you're outdoors, or in a Daylight spell, Darkness really does cause the inky blackness we know from 3.5. Deeper Darkness mainly makes you able to turn sunlight into dim light, and ignore the Daylight spell.
Adding the shadow effect would be new.
Where is this rules definition of ambient light that is neither magical nor nonmagical?
Argh. I hate FAQs that make things more complicated instead of less.
I blame the "globe of darkness" thing on the Drzzt books. The spell in Pathfinder is actually nothing like that.
The thing that most people don't seem to get is that Darkness (like Light) is an Emanation effect.
That means the darkness is radiating from a central point (the object it is cast on). Most physical objects block emanations.
That means that if you cast Darkness on a nail, and then stuck it into the front of a tower shield, only the area in front of the shield would be darker.
The best way to think of Darkness is as "anti-light". It behaves in all the ways that light does, and is blocked by all the things that light is blocked by.
If Darkness hits a person, that person will actually cast a shadow, but it will be lighter behind them, rather than darker.
Smart adventurers shell out the cash for a single casting of Heightened Continual Flame as soon as possible.
Higher level light effects cancel lower level darkness effects, and there aren't any darkness effects higher than 3rd level. A 5th level Continual Flame will cancel just about every darkness effect you'll ever run across. In terms of canceling darkness effects, it's even more powerful than Daylight.