Darkness Spells… Are they Orbs of inky blackness, or do they do what they say they do??


Rules Questions

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Remy Balster wrote:

If two people were holding candles in the middle of a field in the dark of night, 100ft away from each other, they could see each other's candles. If you cast darkness in between them, in the area of already dark field. Then... they should still be able to see each other, because the spell has no effect, and it has no effect because...

It is 'already' dark there...

And if the moon is out or even if just the stars are bright? Then we're talking dim light, not darkness as the original state. (page 172, core rulebook).

Now what if I stand directly in between the two of them? Does the spell somehow turn me transparent or do I still block light? And if I'm blocking light from bright objects on either side of myself, then how would you explain me receiving total concealment?

The rules you're trying to use, while RAW, are clearly incapable of resolving situations. While I'll admit that inky blackness isn't mentioned in the rules it doesn't create quite so many difficulties and thus makes a very good house rule. Based on designer comments that have already been quoted in this thread it also seems to be RAI.


mkenner wrote:
Remy Balster wrote:

If two people were holding candles in the middle of a field in the dark of night, 100ft away from each other, they could see each other's candles. If you cast darkness in between them, in the area of already dark field. Then... they should still be able to see each other, because the spell has no effect, and it has no effect because...

It is 'already' dark there...

And if the moon is out or even if just the stars are bright? Then we're talking dim light, not darkness as the original state. (page 172, core rulebook).

Now what if I stand directly in between the two of them? Does the spell somehow turn me transparent or do I still block light? And if I'm blocking light from bright objects on either side of myself, then how would you explain me receiving total concealment?

The rules you're trying to use, while RAW, are clearly incapable of resolving situations. While I'll admit that inky blackness isn't mentioned in the rules it doesn't create quite so many difficulties and thus makes a very good house rule. Based on designer comments that have already been quoted in this thread it also seems to be RAI.

Not just RAI, but per FAQ. Inky blackness is how it works.

It seems weird, but clears up more relevant questions than it raises.


thejeff wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:

I blame the "globe of darkness" thing on the Drzzt books. The spell in Pathfinder is actually nothing like that.

The thing that most people don't seem to get is that Darkness (like Light) is an Emanation effect.

That means the darkness is radiating from a central point (the object it is cast on). Most physical objects block emanations.

That means that if you cast Darkness on a nail, and then stuck it into the front of a tower shield, only the area in front of the shield would be darker.

The best way to think of Darkness is as "anti-light". It behaves in all the ways that light does, and is blocked by all the things that light is blocked by.

If Darkness hits a person, that person will actually cast a shadow, but it will be lighter behind them, rather than darker.

So do creatures in a Darkness area have concealment if they are between you and the source? Your description would imply they don't.

RAW they do.

Creatures and other small objects don't block the effect for such things. If you don't have darkvision you can't see the things in the Darkness area. A wall or corner would block the effect, since that actually blocks line of sight.

Your second statement is completely correct. The game doesn't go into details about shadow and stuff like that. Creatures don't ever block emanations (my statement about "darkness shadows" was just anecdotal. There's no mechanical effect, just a description of how anti-light would work).

Objects do block emanations though. Basically anything that cant normally be seen through would block the darkness effect. Doors are a good example. If Darkness were cast into a 10x10 room, and the door was shut, only the room would be effected. If the door were opened, the darkness would spill out of the doorway.

That's why I mentioned the tower shield. It can grant cover, so it's enough to block the emanation.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Remy Balster wrote:

If light doesn't pass 'through' an area of darkness... then you can do some really weird things with these spells.

For starters, their area of effect would actually be a whole lot bigger.

If an area of a darkness spell applies to lighting effects beyond its range, as it is being said here, and the faq... then it casts 'huge' shadows beyond the spell radius. And that is a nightmare to track, especially since there are no descriptions in the spell for how to handle this. (Because it doesn't say it does this at all)

The spell would darken the area, per spell description, but then you would have to draw out lines of origination for shadow effects of the spell beyond its radius too?

Ok, Guy in a room, a torch on the wall, and darkness cast in the middle.

#####DDD#####
####DDDDD####
T###DDDDD##G#
####DDDDD####
#####DDD#####

T: Torch
D: Darkness
G: Some guy

If the FAQ is correct, and what you guys are saying is correct...the area of the spell affects light sources outside of its area, in areas outside of its area...

Then the above example should look like... this?

#####DDDDDDDD
####DDDDDDDDD
T###DDDDDDDGD
####DDDDDDDDD
#####DDDDDDDD

So, even though the Torch is outside the spell effect, and the guy is outside the spell effect, both the torch's light and the guy are effected anyway and the reason is because?

If you want to critique the spell/FAQ, you should probably start with accurate examples.

For instance, your example here is meaningless because it can't happen. Torches shed normal light for 20ft, then raise the light level by 1 step for another 20ft. That means that beyond 40ft from the torch, there is no effect.

Darkness has a radius of 20ft, meaning it's a total of 40ft across. So if you want to position darkness in between a torch and a viewer such that neither is within the darkness AoE, then the viewer was outside the torch's area already. The darkness spell is irrelevant because they guy is already effectively blinded.

Now here's another thought experiment for you:
Suppose your Guy and the torch are in place (far enough apart to flank darkness), but there's no darkness spell. The only light source is the torch, but he's outside its AoE, standing in total darkness.

Can he see the torch, or anything in its immediate vicinity?

Because if he can, then you've just declared that the torch can have an effect entirely outside its affected area. And if you're okay with the torch affecting things outside its area, then you really have no legitimate complaint for darkness doing the same thing.


It's a magic sphere of darkness. It's like as if a physical black sphere was blocking your vision, except it's not solid. If you're inside, you can't see out. If you're outside, you can't see in or beyond. Also, it's magic. Unless it's covered, it spreads around corners and tower shields to fill its 20' radius. It doesn't obey the laws of physics.


Bizbag wrote:
It's a magic sphere of darkness. It's like as if a physical black sphere was blocking your vision, except it's not solid. If you're inside, you can't see out. If you're outside, you can't see in or beyond. Also, it's magic. Unless it's covered, it spreads around corners and tower shields to fill its 20' radius. It doesn't obey the laws of physics.

This is only true if you use the Darkness spell in Dim light. The spell just lowers the light level by 1. If you cast this in bright light the area in effect is now normal light. Since you can still see in normal light you can see right through the area. Nowhere in the spell does it say you can't see things inside the area.

Liberty's Edge

Ignipotens wrote:
Bizbag wrote:
It's a magic sphere of darkness. It's like as if a physical black sphere was blocking your vision, except it's not solid. If you're inside, you can't see out. If you're outside, you can't see in or beyond. Also, it's magic. Unless it's covered, it spreads around corners and tower shields to fill its 20' radius. It doesn't obey the laws of physics.
This is only true if you use the Darkness spell in Dim light. The spell just lowers the light level by 1. If you cast this in bright light the area in effect is now normal light. Since you can still see in normal light you can see right through the area. Nowhere in the spell does it say you can't see things inside the area.

As Jiggy pointed out in the FAQ related to darkness, the spell kind of works like a filter over the area, in it or trying to look through it would have the same lighting effect. if you can see through the light level, then it doesn't obstruct your vision, if you cannot, it does.


Fomsie wrote:
Ignipotens wrote:
Bizbag wrote:
It's a magic sphere of darkness. It's like as if a physical black sphere was blocking your vision, except it's not solid. If you're inside, you can't see out. If you're outside, you can't see in or beyond. Also, it's magic. Unless it's covered, it spreads around corners and tower shields to fill its 20' radius. It doesn't obey the laws of physics.
This is only true if you use the Darkness spell in Dim light. The spell just lowers the light level by 1. If you cast this in bright light the area in effect is now normal light. Since you can still see in normal light you can see right through the area. Nowhere in the spell does it say you can't see things inside the area.
As Jiggy pointed out in the FAQ related to darkness, the spell kind of works like a filter over the area, in it or trying to look through it would have the same lighting effect. if you can see through the light level, then it doesn't obstruct your vision, if you cannot, it does.

Yes, I agree. If the spell causes actual darkness (it was cast in dim light) then you can't see through it. You can however see into it if you have darkvision. What it doesn't do (that some thinks it does) is create some impenetrable barrier you can't see through.

Liberty's Edge

Ignipotens wrote:
Fomsie wrote:
Ignipotens wrote:
Bizbag wrote:
Previously.
Resolved.
Stuff.
Yes, I agree. If the spell causes actual darkness (it was cast in dim light) then you can't see through it. You can however see into it if you have darkvision. What it doesn't do (that some thinks it does) is create some impenetrable barrier you can't see through.

Unless of course it is Deeper Darkness used in Dim light or lower, which then creates the darkness even darkvision does not see through.

Silver Crusade

Here is how I see it.

Normal light travels out from the torches of guy a and guy b. They can see each other just fine. Guy c inside the magical darkness is hard to see and is having a hard time seeing guy a and b. He also can not see the stars.

To throw some physics at it (that always turns out well) the rays of light pass through the darkness as normal. But the magic dark rays interfere with the light in the in the spells area.

Dark Archive

TimrehIX wrote:

Here is how I see it.

Normal light travels out from the torches of guy a and guy b. They can see each other just fine. Guy c inside the magical darkness is hard to see and is having a hard time seeing guy a and b. He also can not see the stars.

To throw some physics at it (that always turns out well) the rays of light pass through the darkness as normal. But the magic dark rays interfere with the light in the in the spells area.

As stated earlier, that is not RAW per the FAQ, but not a bad house rule if you wish:

Quote:

Darkness: Can I see light sources through an area of darkness?

No. If a darkness spell reduces the light in the area to actual darkness (or supernatural darkness, if using a more powerful spell), you can't see through the darkness into what is beyond it.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 05/09/13


Happler wrote:
TimrehIX wrote:

Here is how I see it.

Normal light travels out from the torches of guy a and guy b. They can see each other just fine. Guy c inside the magical darkness is hard to see and is having a hard time seeing guy a and b. He also can not see the stars.

To throw some physics at it (that always turns out well) the rays of light pass through the darkness as normal. But the magic dark rays interfere with the light in the in the spells area.

As stated earlier, that is not RAW per the FAQ, but not a bad house rule if you wish:

Quote:

Darkness: Can I see light sources through an area of darkness?

No. If a darkness spell reduces the light in the area to actual darkness (or supernatural darkness, if using a more powerful spell), you can't see through the darkness into what is beyond it.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 05/09/13

You are reading over some important parts. Bolded.

Quote:
If a darkness spell reduces the light in the area to actual darkness

The spell doesn't automatically make it impossible to see through. You only cannot see through it if the spell lowered the light level to darkness.


Jiggy wrote:

If you want to critique the spell/FAQ, you should probably start with accurate examples.

For instance, your example here is meaningless because it can't happen. Torches shed normal light for 20ft, then raise the light level by 1 step for another 20ft. That means that beyond 40ft from the torch, there is no effect.

Darkness has a radius of 20ft, meaning it's a total of 40ft across. So if you want to position darkness in between a torch and a viewer such that neither is within the darkness AoE, then the viewer was outside the torch's area already. The darkness spell is irrelevant because they guy is already effectively blinded.

Now here's another thought experiment for you:
Suppose your Guy and the torch are in place (far enough apart to flank darkness), but there's no darkness spell. The only light source is the torch, but he's outside its AoE, standing in total darkness.

Can he see the torch, or anything in its immediate vicinity?

Because if he can, then you've just declared that the torch can have an effect entirely outside its affected area. And if you're okay with the torch affecting things outside its area, then you really have no legitimate complaint for darkness doing the same thing.

Oh bah. You and I both know that regular vision isn't the only kind of vision.

So don't go calling stuff absurd when it is very real and possible.


mkenner wrote:

And if the moon is out or even if just the stars are bright? Then we're talking dim light, not darkness as the original state. (page 172, core rulebook).

Now what if I stand directly in between the two of them? Does the spell somehow turn me transparent or do I still block light? And if I'm blocking light from bright objects on either side of myself, then how would you explain me receiving total concealment?

The rules you're trying to use, while RAW, are clearly incapable of resolving situations. While I'll admit that inky blackness isn't mentioned in the rules it doesn't create quite so many difficulties and thus makes a very good house rule. Based on designer comments that have already been quoted in this thread it also seems to be RAI.

I suppose I see the issues cropping up from being able to see silhouettes. But even then it'd just be silhouettes, and with no depth perception, could be very difficult to properly target.

But it does creates other issues that’d have to be fully explained/adjudicated. The FAQ response just feels like the ‘easy solution’ which I guess is ‘good enough’.

The thing that eats at me about it though is that it is an emanation, yet is somehow acting like a solid object, expect not, but still is. Very screwy.

The description seems to more than just suggest/imply that the darkness created by these spells essentially acts like light, but, ya know, the opposite. Maybe that is too hard to visualize?


TimrehIX wrote:

Here is how I see it.

Normal light travels out from the torches of guy a and guy b. They can see each other just fine. Guy c inside the magical darkness is hard to see and is having a hard time seeing guy a and b. He also can not see the stars.

To throw some physics at it (that always turns out well) the rays of light pass through the darkness as normal. But the magic dark rays interfere with the light in the in the spells area.

This is pretty much what I thought too. Guess not though. I still think that this interpretation is immeasurably cooler though.


Remy Balster wrote:
The description seems to more than just suggest/imply that the darkness created by these spells essentially acts like light, but, ya know, the opposite. Maybe that is too hard to visualize?

Not really too hard to visualize. It could make sense.

Imagine the existence of a magical 'darkness' wave-particle duality that doesn't exist within our universe. I'm going to name them Obscurons because I can. Like light, it would have a spectrum of possible wavelengths, no mass, travel at C in a vacuum, etc.

When someone casts the darkness spell on an object, the object begins to radiate obscurons across the 'visible' spectrum. When obscurons strike regular particles they act in the exact opposite way that light does. They apply a negative pressure, reduce temperature and lower the energy state of the struck particle if there is a valid quantum state 'below' its current level by exactly the anti-energy of the obscuron.

When a photon of light and an obscuron of darkness strike an object at the same moment, the photon raises the energy level of the particle but before it can return to its resting state by emitting another photon instead the energy is sapped away by the obscuron. Thus light doesn't reflect off of any object struck by an obscuron.

Normally light emitting objects, such as the hot gasses on a burning torch, would be lowered to a resting state without needing to emit a photon because an obscuron would strike them instead.

To create the effect you describe, an obscuron would have to harmlessly pass through a photon. This is a good thing, because otherwise it would prevent photons that are acting as messenger particles for the electromagnetic force with disastrous consequences.

You would get some strange and interesting effects from this sort of 'radiating darkness', for example if you had a blue stained glass window in the area of effect it would cast a blue 'darkness' into the room and blue objects would be darker while all other coloured objects would remain at their same illumination levels. You could use darkness refraction with objects like prisms to split out a 'dark rainbow' which would be about as goth as it gets.

That could be kind of cool. I'm tempted to use this now, rather than just sphere of inky darkness. Plus it actually makes more scientific sense than the alternative.

Edit: Slight problem now that I think about it. Anyone in the spell's area of effect would be blinded even to light coming in from outside the spell, because obscurons would be striking their eyes preventing them from registering light.


@Obscurons

Do obscurons reflect from objects? They probably should. If an obsucron strikes an atom at rest, then that atom's electrons will need to jump back up to rest??? Go go Arcane Physics!

So If you are outside the area, the obscurons that are coming out of the area will hit your eyes and make the area look inky-black.

Also dark-rainbows are totally metal.

Liberty's Edge

Just one more ting that MAY muddy this up some more:

The range that some one can clearly see a light source is twice the range of its illumination. Hence a torch wielder can be noticed (as a light source) 80 feet away - ie an observer will see that there is *something* illuminating over there.( unless of course this is an old 2nd or 3rd ed rule in which case disregard my ramblings)

But as far as the Darkness effect is concerned now in Pathfinder - I have always visualized it as a dimness in the area of effect - as if the area and all within it (unconstrained) is tinted darker or possibly even as if there is a cloud over head occluding the bright light.You should be able to see through it depending on the final light level of its area with appropriate perception modifiers (and remember that given the current Perception rules a regular person cannot see a giant if they are a foot ball field away in broad daylight ...)


Knight Magenta wrote:

@Obscurons

Do obscurons reflect from objects? They probably should. If an obsucron strikes an atom at rest, then that atom's electrons will need to jump back up to rest??? Go go Arcane Physics!

They would really have to in order to work like the inverse of light.

Quote:
So If you are outside the area, the obscurons that are coming out of the area will hit your eyes and make the area look inky-black.

The spell only works in a twenty foot radius, so I imagine either the obscurons are magically conjured for only a brief time (though this poses issues with special relativity as anything travelling at C experiences no time from its internal point of view relative to everything else in the universe) or possibly that it's some application of diffusion and applies to an inverse cube law. The further from the point of origin the less chance of an obscuron striking your eye because they've spread out over time and there are much less obscurons per square inch than there are photons.

This would mean that the area itself wouldn't look black, only objects on which the obscurons are "shining" would be darkened.


mkenner wrote:
You could use darkness refraction with objects like prisms to split out a 'dark rainbow' which would be about as goth as it gets.

You can have my babies.


mkenner wrote:

Edit: Slight problem now that I think about it. Anyone in the spell's area of effect would be blinded even to light coming in from outside the spell, because obscurons would be striking their eyes preventing them from registering light.

Unless it was a higher level light spell which would destroy the obscurons!!!

/giddy at how much sense you make.


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And now I'm mentally statting dark prismatic spray.

Focus: Pink Floyd T-shirt


Nikolaus Athas wrote:

Just one more ting that MAY muddy this up some more:

The range that some one can clearly see a light source is twice the range of its illumination. Hence a torch wielder can be noticed (as a light source) 80 feet away - ie an observer will see that there is *something* illuminating over there.( unless of course this is an old 2nd or 3rd ed rule in which case disregard my ramblings)

But as far as the Darkness effect is concerned now in Pathfinder - I have always visualized it as a dimness in the area of effect - as if the area and all within it (unconstrained) is tinted darker or possibly even as if there is a cloud over head occluding the bright light.You should be able to see through it depending on the final light level of its area with appropriate perception modifiers (and remember that given the current Perception rules a regular person cannot see a giant if they are a foot ball field away in broad daylight ...)

The only rule that I am aware of concerning this is that you can see into an illuminated area from up to 20 times away from a light source in dark conditions and 10 times away from a light source in dim conditions.

3.5 Underdark page 106

As to visualizing the effects of darkness, after the FAQ, I can only come up with it being like a fog absent of light rather than one of water vapor.

That would explain why one can't see silhouettes through it and give the other effects that we recognize within the area of effect.


Komoda wrote:
3.5 Underdark page 106

Which is not a Pathfinder RPG rules source.


And I guess since Math isn't really a part of Pathfinder we can't solve for +1, right? And we surely can't divide by 2 and round down. Those are advanced mathematical concepts that are not explained anywhere in any Pathfinder rule book.

We both know that Pathfinder is an extension of D&D. To deny that makes no sense. As I stated above, the rule that I referenced is the only one that I am aware of regarding visual distance of light sources in the D20 system. If the rule is absent in Pathfinder, but exists in D&D 3.5, there is a strong reason to consider using it in your games.

Are you aware of another? If you are, please let us know because I would be interested. Light and vision are a major part of my games, as is terrain, because otherwise all you have is a flat, bright world with very few tactical options.

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