faerie fire question


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Would faerie fire stop mirror images working?


Faerie fire specifically says it counters 3 specific illusion/glamer spells because they are concealment effects... however Mirror Image is an illusion/figment and nothing in it's description say anything about concealing: mirror image creates illusory clones, that's not concealment it's cloning.


No, Mirror Image doesn't cause/rely on concealment.

You're trying to suggest that only the real caster would be revealed by the AoE. But even if that's the case (I wouldn't flavor the interaction that way), it does nothing to stop the effects of Mirror Image.


After reading the spell description, here's how I see it:

It's not a spell that requires an attack roll. So it won't affect Mirror Image.


But if the target is highlighted (the images wouldn't be) surely the images are negated?

What about Glitterdust, would that bypass the images or would they all now look glittery?


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Mechanically, the effect of the spell(mirror image) is not negated, even if you fluff the spell effect to suggest that it is.

The problem with what you're suggesting is that, effectively, any AoE spell can identify the real target (if you are actively looking).
I have always understood the fluff of Mirror Image to suggest that the images also appear to be affected(they mirror the caster exactly) by AoE effects (they just aren't damaged, so they don't disappear).


Unless the spell requires an attack roll it is flatly incapable of affecting Mirror Image.

The spell is much more powerful than in previous incarnations.


The question is does faerie fire make the images appear to glow too.


The original question was: "Would faerie fire stop mirror images working?"

The answer is no.

As to whether the images are glowing or not, the rules are markedly silent on that matter. Were I a DM I would say that they do glow so that they look just like the original.

But even if a DM ruled that they didn't glow it wouldn't affect the functionality of Mirror Image. Any attack would still have a chance of striking an image - glowing or not.


The fact that the images are identical is why mirror image works - you don't know which is the real target. If faerie fire causes the caster to glow but the images don't the effect would mean an attacker could target correctly and basically bypass the, now obviously not the real, images.

Going invisible doesn't leave visible images, catching on fire doesn't, as far as I'm aware, leave unfeiry images. Faerie Fire should probably work the same way but I'm not seeing anything in the raw that confirms it.


The spell is a figment. Couldn't a character just use a standard action to study the images carefully and make her Will save like any other figment? Seems simpler than trying to be clever about spells on it.


Interestingly invisibility is listed but the description of invisibility doesn't mention concealment at all in the spell. And faerie fire says similar effect which could include illusions. Hmm it's a bit grey.


Democratus wrote:

As to whether the images are glowing or not, the rules are markedly silent on that matter. Were I a DM I would say that they do glow so that they look just like the original.

This makes sense.

Democratus wrote:


But even if a DM ruled that they didn't glow it wouldn't affect the functionality of Mirror Image. Any attack would still have a chance of striking an image - glowing or not.

And that would be a terrible ruling. It's the kind of "disconnect" that tanked 4E.


Anyone else with some insight?


Mirror image automatically updates so its images look exactly like you. So I'd say they'd start glowing when the original did. Still useful for negating fog, darkness, and the like, but faerie fire doesn't affect the effectiveness of mirror image.


Where's the Weed? wrote:
Anyone else with some insight?

Here's some insight: A spell does only what that spell says that it does.

Following that truth shows us that Faerie Fire must make the original and all Mirror Image copies glow in the same way, because if only one copy glowed that would be proof of which copy is real (and thus be a negation of the benefit of Mirror Image) which Faerie Fire does not say that it does, so it doesn't do that.


tonyz wrote:
Mirror image automatically updates so its images look exactly like you. So I'd say they'd start glowing when the original did. Still useful for negating fog, darkness, and the like, but faerie fire doesn't affect the effectiveness of mirror image.

This is how I look at it too.


Incorrect outcome. Mirror Imaged NERFED

3.5PHB.p173/PF210 "Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly. For example, it is possible to use a silent image spell to create an illusory cottage, but the cottage offers no protection from rain.”

Q.E.D Only the real objects in the area specified by the caster as subjects are affected by Faerie Fire.

Detailed explanation:
Faerie fire works on objects designated as subjects by the caster of Faerie Fire, and the figments aren’t real so they objects and therefore eligible targets of Faerie Fire and definitely are not illuminated - ie they cannot shed the candlelight of Faerie Fire. Even if you believe that the Mirror Image figments created were demonstrating a picture of the real character's Faerie Fire they could not produce faerie fire candle light illumination (ie they would look artificial) - it is like trying to use the photo of a bonfire to illuminate your study or a TV show character using a torch to spotlight your lounge room.

Only the real character in a Mirror Image would actually produce the Faerie Fire Candlelight illumination.


Ignipotens wrote:
tonyz wrote:
Mirror image automatically updates so its images look exactly like you. So I'd say they'd start glowing when the original did. Still useful for negating fog, darkness, and the like, but faerie fire doesn't affect the effectiveness of mirror image.
This is how I look at it too.

Sorry incorrect see above


Democratus wrote:

After reading the spell description, here's how I see it:

It's not a spell that requires an attack roll. So it won't affect Mirror Image.

Sorry incorrect see above


Where's the Weed? wrote:

But if the target is highlighted (the images wouldn't be) surely the images are negated?

What about Glitterdust, would that bypass the images or would they all now look glittery?

The Weed inspired truth! See above


Pupsocket wrote:
Democratus wrote:

As to whether the images are glowing or not, the rules are markedly silent on that matter. Were I a DM I would say that they do glow so that they look just like the original.

This makes sense.

Democratus wrote:


But even if a DM ruled that they didn't glow it wouldn't affect the functionality of Mirror Image. Any attack would still have a chance of striking an image - glowing or not.
And that would be a terrible ruling. It's the kind of "disconnect" that tanked 4E.

Doesnt make sense or you could create the figment-illusion of a fire or beacon or even the sun to emit light. Just like a photo

BTW Mirror image needs vulnerabilities, otherwise it is 'more powerful' than other defensive illusions of the same spell level - eg Blur, which is subject to Faerie Fire.


Kyoni wrote:
Faerie fire specifically says it counters 3 specific illusion/glamer spells because they are concealment effects... however Mirror Image is an illusion/figment and nothing in it's description say anything about concealing: mirror image creates illusory clones, that's not concealment it's cloning.

Incorrect see above


Archaeik wrote:

No, Mirror Image doesn't cause/rely on concealment.

You're trying to suggest that only the real caster would be revealed by the AoE. But even if that's the case (I wouldn't flavor the interaction that way), it does nothing to stop the effects of Mirror Image.

Nope see above


PS
Oops : Missed a word above that might lead to more debate:

...the figments aren’t real so they AREN'T objects.

before getting too excited as there is no definition of what an 'object' except that (in PHB3.5 p165/PF 173 they always have hardness and HP (where it is clear that figments have no Hardness and No HP). Meanwhile a 'Shadow' illusion has some reality...


The figment images Mirror Image creates adjust based on the condition of the target. Per the spell description: "These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly."

There is no statement that says 'if you are carrying a light source, such as a lantern or torch, mirror image figments are ineffective.' Since no such statement exists, you cannot assume the light producing qualities of the Faerie Fire spell would trump the explicit effect of Mirror Image.

Glitterdust would make the entire square glittery. The target outlined would be glittery, therefore the images would also be glittery.

Throwing paint or chalk dust at the target could stain/cover the target. This change would then be immediately duplicated by the images.

While the light produced by Faerie Fire is generated at the position of the target, I suggest the disorienting nature of the movement of the target and the figments results in the viewer seeing the light as emanating from the square, with no chance to localize it to just the target.


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2 Hit die wrote:

Detailed explanation:

Faerie fire works on objects designated as subjects by the caster of Faerie Fire, and the figments aren’t real so they objects and therefore eligible targets of Faerie Fire and definitely are not illuminated - ie they cannot shed the candlelight of Faerie Fire. Even if you believe that the Mirror Image figments created were demonstrating a picture of the real character's Faerie Fire they could not produce faerie fire candle light illumination (ie they would look artificial) - it is like trying to use the photo of a bonfire to illuminate your study or a TV show character using a torch to spotlight your lounge room.

Only the real character in a Mirror Image would actually produce the Faerie Fire Candlelight illumination.

As I understand it, your argument is that you would be able to tell which image was real based on the candlelight-level light emanating from the source of the spell.

Light emanates from a square to a designated distance, and I have never seen anything in the rules that says multiple light sources in the same square have any effect on the light level or distance. So three candles in the same square produce the same light level as one candle, and the light emanates out to the same radius. Mechanically, there should be no difference between one candle combined with two illusory candles and three candles as long as they are all in the same square.

All of the Mirror Images are in your square, and they shuffle constantly. So the "candlelight" effect from faerie fire would cause the caster to shed light as a candle, and light levels would be increased (or not, depending on ambient light) accordingly. The mirror images would automatically update to also *appear* to glow. Even if they do not *actually* glow (e.g., they do increase the light level nor do they change the distance of the emanation), I would argue that there is no way to tell, mechanically, which of the images is actually glowing.


Gwen Smith wrote:
2 Hit die wrote:

Detailed explanation:

Faerie fire works on objects designated as subjects by the caster of Faerie Fire, and the figments aren’t real so they objects and therefore eligible targets of Faerie Fire and definitely are not illuminated - ie they cannot shed the candlelight of Faerie Fire. Even if you believe that the Mirror Image figments created were demonstrating a picture of the real character's Faerie Fire they could not produce faerie fire candle light illumination (ie they would look artificial) - it is like trying to use the photo of a bonfire to illuminate your study or a TV show character using a torch to spotlight your lounge room.

Only the real character in a Mirror Image would actually produce the Faerie Fire Candlelight illumination.

As I understand it, your argument is that you would be able to tell which image was real based on the candlelight-level light emanating from the source of the spell.

Light emanates from a square to a designated distance, and I have never seen anything in the rules that says multiple light sources in the same square have any effect on the light level or distance. So three candles in the same square produce the same light level as one candle, and the light emanates out to the same radius. Mechanically, there should be no difference between one candle combined with two illusory candles and three candles as long as they are all in the same square.

All of the Mirror Images are in your square, and they shuffle constantly. So the "candlelight" effect from faerie fire would cause the caster to shed light as a candle, and light levels would be increased (or not, depending on ambient light) accordingly. The mirror images would automatically update to also *appear* to glow. Even if they do not *actually* glow (e.g., they do increase the light level nor do they change the distance of the emanation), I would argue that there is no way to tell, mechanically, which of the images is actually glowing.

Gwen - Sorry your statement "So the "candlelight" effect from faerie fire would cause the caster to shed light as a candle, and light levels would be increased (or not, depending on ambient light) accordingly." clearly demonstrates that you interpret mirror image as having the ability to generate multiple light sources. This is unacceptable as it thereby increasing the net light generated. Ouch. You're giving WAY too much power to this spell.

BTW 'Mechanically' - this justification should be Anathema to a GM. A GM is to arbitrate the fantasy-reality world within the games, so they should adjudicate without ever being 'blocked' or 'restricted' by mechanics.


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RegUS PatOff wrote:

The figment images Mirror Image creates adjust based on the condition of the target. Per the spell description: "These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly."

There is no statement that says 'if you are carrying a light source, such as a lantern or torch, mirror image figments are ineffective.' Since no such statement exists, you cannot assume the light producing qualities of the Faerie Fire spell would trump the explicit effect of Mirror Image.

Glitterdust would make the entire square glittery. The target outlined would be glittery, therefore the images would also be glittery.

Throwing paint or chalk dust at the target could stain/cover the target. This change would then be immediately duplicated by the images.

While the light produced by Faerie Fire is generated at the position of the target, I suggest the disorienting nature of the movement of the target and the figments results in the viewer seeing the light as emanating from the square, with no chance to localize it to just the target.

Hey sorry friend it is the GM's job to constantly make rulings based on incomplete statements such as missing information so when i read you saying "You cannot assume" I am aghast - this is another dangersign - remember RPGs are "GM ruling" based - they are not wargames or MMORPGS with fixed rulesets that apply to all participants! The GM MUST regularly make assumptions to beget rulings in the gameworld!!!

Re your point, it is also flawed to suggest that Mirror Image can duplicate all visible magical effects. This idea of duplicating spell effects is dangerous ground, and with your logic leads to multiple gaze attacks because multiple eyes are generated or being able to read from multiple spells written on multiple scrolls because it appears multiple times.

At best Mirror Image (remember guys its a 2nd level spell )should create a poor imitation of the (magical) appearance of spells, and for most affects may only produce the picture of a fire or picture of a lantern as I illustrated above. It will also project the image of a another spell in play, such as Alter Self or a Mage Armour or a Flame Blade which are not designed for neutralising illusions, but should definitely not duplicate 'revealing' spells specifically designed to counter illusions.

True that the spell would have little benefit if a mundane lantern or torch could be easily discerned, and I agree these should be visible within the effect of the mirror image and therefore part of the illusion as they are copied so the original light fractals or deflects through them.

However, countering spells (not 'counterspells') such as Glitterdust and Faerie Fire should not be duplicated. They are by very nature a spell chosen by an opponent specifically to neutralise another spell effect. A glitterdust to neutralise a Invisibility and if cast at it, to neutralise a mirror image. Simply allowing Mirror image to nerf other countering spells and not exempting Invisibility, Blur and any other 2nd level defensive illusion spell increases the power of this spell that gets it singled out and favored as a superior second level spell better than its level-equals. Bad news for game balance.

My suggestion is that if for example you have a mirror image going on your major villain and a player of a low level character has gone to the trouble of memorising glitterdust or has access to faerie fire, (memorising these at the opportunity cost of a whiz-bang damage spell) your player would feel more rewarded for clever play if their countering spell worked instead of simply saying no, and turning mirror image into a superior spell (because it has no effective countering spells) which is questionable for visual reasons I explain above and from a metagame view basically unfair in gameplay.

Make your own super mirror image of 4th level that mimics spells designed to reveal illusions if you really want one that works that way.

Perhaps Glitterdust and Faerie Fire have a permutation built into their magical matrix designed to make simple image duplication difficult. You can have this nerfed in any Super Mirror Image spell you want to create.


Agree with above (2 Hit Die).
I would however say that in brightly lit areas (daylight/sunlight) that you couldn't (or difficult) tell which one is lit.


Where's the Weed? wrote:
Would faerie fire stop mirror images working?

No.

It does this:

"A pale glow surrounds and outlines the subjects. Outlined subjects shed light as candles. Creatures outlined by faerie fire take a –20 penalty on all Stealth checks. Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness (though a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally), blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects. The light is too dim to have any special effect on undead or dark-dwelling creatures vulnerable to light. The faerie fire can be blue, green, or violet, according to your choice at the time of casting. The faerie fire does not cause any harm to the objects or creatures thus outlined."

Mirror Image-Figment (does not provide concealment)

Blur-Glamer "This distortion grants the subject concealment (20% miss chance)."

Displacement-Glamer "The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment."

Invisibility-Glamer (provides concealment)

Mirror Image does this:

"This spell creates a number of illusory doubles of you that inhabit your square. These doubles make it difficult for enemies to precisely locate and attack you.

When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created. These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly. Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells that require a touch attack are harmlessly discharged if used to destroy a figment.

An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply)."

So Faerie Fire deals with concealment. Mirror Image doesn't use it.

Faerie Fire doesn't affect Mirror Image.


2 Hit die wrote:
My suggestion is that if for example you have a mirror image going on your major villain and a player of a low level character has gone to the trouble of memorising glitterdust or has access to faerie fire, (memorising these at the opportunity cost of a whiz-bang damage spell) your player would feel more rewarded for clever play if their countering spell worked instead of simply saying no, and turning mirror image into a superior spell (because it has no effective countering spells) which is questionable for visual reasons I explain above and from a metagame view basically unfair in gameplay.

Disagree with a lot of what you posted above (for instance, that mechanical limitations shouldn't be relevant to GMs).

But as to this point, put the shoe on the other foot. How would your players feel rewarded by allowing the BBEG's (or a mook's for that matter) spell to overcome the player's Mirror Image spell? Mirror Image is a powerful low-level defensive spell that can significantly increase a mage's survivability; you'd be trodding all over a significant investment and expectation of a PC for a debatable preference at best.

As for duplicating gaze attacks et al., this also isn't a concern since the images do not take actions to use any gaze attacks. It might look to a PC like any number of the images is making such an attack on the relevant creatures turn, but only one such attack actually occurs. And even if you could spot which creature actually made the attack when it happened, the images then mix and meander once again, making your ability to isolate the real image impossible.

Similarly,

2 Hit Die wrote:
Gwen - Sorry your statement "So the "candlelight" effect from faerie fire would cause the caster to shed light as a candle, and light levels would be increased (or not, depending on ambient light) accordingly." clearly demonstrates that you interpret mirror image as having the ability to generate multiple light sources. This is unacceptable as it thereby increasing the net light generated. Ouch. You're giving WAY too much power to this spell.

How is this creating additional light and how is this a problem? This isn't 20 different phantom images spread out over a 20' area. All the images mix and meander amongst themselves within the same square. So even if all the images appeared to have their own separate light source, all of those light sources would appear to be emanating from the same 5' square. In short, there would be no extra light emitted due to mirror images being in place.

Besides, saying that allowing this makes Mirror Image far too powerful for a low level spell is a little curious since Faerie Fire itself is a first level spell, meaning it's one level lower than Mirror Image. Unless Faerie Fire calls out counteracting Mirror Image, I don't know why it should be allowed to.

2 Hit Die wrote:
However, countering spells (not 'counterspells') such as Glitterdust and Faerie Fire should not be duplicated. They are by very nature a spell chosen by an opponent specifically to neutralise another spell effect. A glitterdust to neutralise a Invisibility and if cast at it, to neutralise a mirror image. Simply allowing Mirror image to nerf other countering spells and not exempting Invisibility, Blur and any other 2nd level defensive illusion spell increases the power of this spell that gets it singled out and favored as a superior second level spell better than its level-equals. Bad news for game balance.

Finally, this argument honestly doesn't make any sense to me. Just because a spell is chosen in an attempt to counteract another spell effect doesn't mean it was the right choice. Again, the original spell effect was chosen likely because there are only specific ways to counter it. Glitterdust counteracts Invisibility because Glitterdust specifically says it does, not because some PC might cleverly think, "Hey, maybe I should try this spell to counteract a different one." Glitterdust is used against invisible creatures because Glitterdust is specifically designed to be used that way. Similarly, Faerie Fire works on Blur because Faerie Fire says it works on Blur. If I, as a GM, used FF to counteract one of my PC's Mirror Image spells, that PC would absolutely be justified in being upset by my adjudication because nowhere in either of those spell entries is there any indication that FF should work in that way.

Other 2nd level spells get singled out because that's the way their countering spells were written. Spells can be circumvented by dispelling them or specifically countering them in the way we're told we're able to. It just so happens that Mirror Image's work around is destroying the images in some capacity, absent something like True Seeing. If you allow FF or GD to counteract Mirror Images, you are vitiating a the power of a spell simply because you think it ought to work differently. And don't forget, if your suggestion works for the PCs, it also works against them. So you greatly increase the methods that enemies have to counteract your PC's defenses. That's far more problematic than having a BBEG being able to avoid a few extra attacks.

Would you allow a PC to detect which image is real if the subject of a Mirror Image spell was subsequently hit by a Fireball spell? That's what the "area spell" language of Mirror Image is directed at. Seems to be the same issue here. If not, why would you treat GD/FF any differently than Fireball? If so, it seems like you're drastically nerfing the power of what's supposed to be a potent defensive spell.


Please folks, just do what the spells say.

Faerie Fire counters CONCEALMENT, Mirror Image doesn't use concealment.

Assigning additional effects to Faerie Fire changes the rules of the game.

House rule territory.

Lantern Lodge

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Fregod99 completely ninja'd my post - full crit backstab on 20 mins of writing. Well done.

But essentially, what he said.


twells wrote:
Fregod99 completely ninja'd my post - full crit backstab on 20 mins of writing.

Ha! Sorry. Been there.

alexd1976 wrote:

Please folks, just do what the spells say.

Faerie Fire counters CONCEALMENT, Mirror Image doesn't use concealment.

Assigning additional effects to Faerie Fire changes the rules of the game.

House rule territory.

Also, this.

Lantern Lodge

fretgod99 wrote:
twells wrote:
Fregod99 completely ninja'd my post - full crit backstab on 20 mins of writing.

Ha! Sorry. Been there.

No worries .. you said it better than I was going to.


alexd1976 wrote:
Where's the Weed? wrote:
Would faerie fire stop mirror images working?

No.

It does this:

"A pale glow surrounds and outlines the subjects. Outlined subjects shed light as candles. Creatures outlined by faerie fire take a –20 penalty on all Stealth checks. Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness (though a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally), blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects.

Stop there. You bold "Or similar effects" but don't elaborate on what these are. "similar"

means "having a likeness or resemblance, especially in a general way: "
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/similar)

but is not "Identical"!

Therefore, effects which are illusions designed to distort appearance are "similar"

Your own post identifies that this is not restricted to nerfing "concealment" - I never said Mirror image is concealment!

(This is a classic debating technique, to put words in the other's mouth and take the argument over there to win it.)

Im sorry I was very specific. I summarise:

1) Mirror image is a figment
2) Figments aren't real objects
3) faerie fire affects real objects
4) Therefore the real character is faerie fired and the images are not

It is quite clear water-tight logic


alexd1976 wrote:

Please folks, just do what the spells say.

Faerie Fire counters CONCEALMENT, Mirror Image doesn't use concealment.

Assigning additional effects to Faerie Fire changes the rules of the game.

House rule territory.

Another false debate path

All my quotes are from the books, particularly (I repeat):

3.5PHB.p173/PF210 "Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly. For example, it is possible to use a silent image spell to create an illusory cottage, but the cottage offers no protection from rain.”

Why should the multiple figments in a Mirror Image be faerie fired? They ARE NOT REAL OBJECTS

Perhaps you love this spell - and want it to have no counters - well then you're perfectly free to house rule it!


fretgod99 wrote:
2 Hit die wrote:
My suggestion is that if for example you have a mirror image going on your major villain and a player of a low level character has gone to the trouble of memorising glitterdust or has access to faerie fire, (memorising these at the opportunity cost of a whiz-bang damage spell) your player would feel more rewarded for clever play if their countering spell worked instead of simply saying no, and turning mirror image into a superior spell (because it has no effective countering spells) which is questionable for visual reasons I explain above and from a metagame view basically unfair in gameplay.

Disagree with a lot of what you posted above (for instance, that mechanical limitations shouldn't be relevant to GMs).

But as to this point, put the shoe on the other foot. How would your players feel rewarded by allowing the BBEG's (or a mook's for that matter) spell to overcome the player's Mirror Image spell? Mirror Image is a powerful low-level defensive spell that can significantly increase a mage's survivability; you'd be trodding all over a significant investment and expectation of a PC for a debatable preference at best.

As for duplicating gaze attacks et al., this also isn't a concern since the images do not take actions to use any gaze attacks. It might look to a PC like any number of the images is making such an attack on the relevant creatures turn, but only one such attack actually occurs. And even if you could spot which creature actually made the attack when it happened, the images then mix and meander once again, making your ability to isolate the real image impossible.

Similarly,

2 Hit Die wrote:
Gwen - Sorry your statement "So the "candlelight" effect from faerie fire would cause the caster to shed light as a candle, and light levels would be increased (or not, depending on ambient light) accordingly." clearly demonstrates that you interpret mirror image as having the ability to generate multiple light sources. This is unacceptable as it thereby increasing the
...

1) Saying Mirror image is "powerful" and would disappoint players if it is nerfed proves my point exactly! Its only 2nd level! It SHOULD be equal to other spells of its level eg a Blur - but everyone else is strangely silent re any counter to it, arguing that it has none - in fact it should be exempted from any 'counters'!

(What is it about Mirror Image that people love so much, I scratch my head, perhaps its Monkey from Monkey Magic TV Show)

2) Of course I don't want illusions to duplicate spell effects no need to debate with that there - I am just raising the point if you make Mirror Image super good in duplicating then you risk that

3) Creating additional light is ridiculous. May I suggest you just get two candles in the room, switch off your monitor, and room lights, and make sure the room is perfectly dark then, light one candle, and notice what happens if you light a second - its a bit noticeable...If you need to try a third and fourth - yep faerie firing each image would be bright and effectively making each non-real figment an object!

4) Faerie fire is had to get, its on a Druid only list and Drow have it. it's not common. As a first level spell its great at countering second level but it has no other uses, ie unlike eg Dispel magic which could potentially counter all spells it can only counter a handful - 1 level above its spell level.


(The rest of the posts are all Fan Boi for this spell Mirror Image and those that defend it and attack the logic from the books I have quoted).

If I was to for example concede that Mirror Image should be more powerful than Blur Invisibility and other spells of its same level, then pray-tell what spell counters it?

Tell me the spell that specifically counters it (not counterspell or dispel magic they are applicable to all).

I'm afraid there is no other one - - unless you apply the rules re Illusions and Figments I have quoted from the rulebooks above and properly curtail this spell that apparently has gotten out of control in many campaigns and become the "powerful low-level defensive spell that can significantly increase a mage's survivability" (to quote Fretgod99 above) which clearly trumps other Illusion-based defensive spells of level 2 which can be nerfed by Faerie Fire...


BTW the most important quote from the spell Faerie Fire is "...can be Blue, Green, or violet" (PF - Pg 280)

This would apply if the caster was outside on a summer day other otherwise had to deal with lots of ambient light in the vicinity.

(no house ruling there, I'm quoting straight from the book)

Making each of the multiple images glow in a coloured light would make each an object. The rules on illusions I have quoted clearly say they are not objects.

BTW House Ruling is good. Necessary if fact it is necessary to stop players who refuse to accept reason and the GM does to want to waste lots of time an energy on a long debate with them because they are truculent/stubborn etc. Some players need to be told "No" and sometimes asked to leave when they cannot accept a referee. remember that people.

I quote this rule:

"GM Fiat. The GM is the law of the Game. His reading of the rules should be respected and adhered to" (PF pg 402)

Amen to that.


twells wrote:

Fregod99 completely ninja'd my post - full crit backstab on 20 mins of writing. Well done.

But essentially, what he said.

I have been DMing since 1st ed AD&D. Most of you are D&D newbees to me. I am a DMing machine - a Construct, and thus immune to criticals; You're backstab was flatulent.

:-)


When you post 6 or 7 times in a row, it's a bit annoying, especially when you're flat out ignoring what the rules say.

Faerie images work on concealment. They then list some spells which use concealment, and say 'similar effects' which refer to similar concealment effects. Example? Being 5' away in a fog cloud. Spells which are not concealment based are not 'similar effects' as referred to by the faerie fire text.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

@2 Hit die, let's accept your idea that the faerie fire effect isn't duplicated.
what it do: it negate concealment.
What do mirror image? Read the spell text:

PRD wrote:
Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment.

There is no consideration there about being able to select the target you want to hit.

So even if only one of the images is outlined by faerie fire, you can't target it bypassing the effect of mirror image.

To do that you need a spell that explicitly overcome mirror image.

And another thing: repeating the same phrase over and over don't make you right.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
2 Hit die wrote:

(The rest of the posts are all Fan Boi for this spell Mirror Image and those that defend it and attack the logic from the books I have quoted).

If I was to for example concede that Mirror Image should be more powerful than Blur Invisibility and other spells of its same level, then pray-tell what spell counters it?

Tell me the spell that specifically counters it (not counterspell or dispel magic they are applicable to all).

I'm afraid there is no other one - - unless you apply the rules re Illusions and Figments I have quoted from the rulebooks above and properly curtail this spell that apparently has gotten out of control in many campaigns and become the "powerful low-level defensive spell that can significantly increase a mage's survivability" (to quote Fretgod99 above) which clearly trumps other Illusion-based defensive spells of level 2 which can be nerfed by Faerie Fire...

A few hits from weapons and natural attacks, closing your eyes and accepting a 50% of missing, dispel magic, true seeing, blindsight, any spell that don't require a to hit, grappling the right creature once, area attacks, the list is pretty long.


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Nope. You get pink glowy copies.


2 Hit die wrote:


I have been DMing since 1st ed AD&D. Most of you are D&D newbees to me.
:-)

You would be surprised at a) how wrong you are and b) how little it matters.


dragonhunterq wrote:
2 Hit die wrote:


I have been DMing since 1st ed AD&D. Most of you are D&D newbees to me.
:-)
You would be surprised at a) how wrong you are and b) how little it matters.

c) prove I am wrong by using the rules - that would matter as it is the subject of this thread.

I need many replies as there are lots of errant posts and I would like to reply to each - putting it all in one reply is confusing.

It's quite simple - Mirror Images are Figments. You can't faerie Fire figments because they are not real objects.

Posters link Pink Norse Wolf are simply wrong. Look in the Core book Page 280. Faerie Fire works on "Area - Creatures and Objects within a 5-ft radius burst" .

The real person is a real target. They can be Faerie Fired. That makes them exposed. Figments are not targets. They Are not real. They are illusions. Read the rulebook quote for figments I used above (twice)

Diego Rossi is almost on point - he can see the logic that only the real thing can be faerie fired but still sticks to the Mirror Image still works anyway line. Why? Blur is nerfed. So is invisibility. What is it about this 2nd level spells that says it is immune to spells that identify the real target?

He strays off in the "Long list" - Physical Attacks are attacks and can fail. Area affect spells are not particular to nerfing this - they attack anything. Closing ones eyes has its own penalties. The "long list" is general and unspecified. There are no other spells from proximate level that neutralise Mirror Image (apart from the high level True Seeing, limited Wish etc). Faerie Fire is the one

Tell me where Figments are real objects and I will accept they can be Faerie Fired.

The rules are explicit. Figments are not real objects. Shadows are, they produce real effects (page 211) I would accept they can be Faerie Fired as they are "partially real". Not Figments (pg 210)

What is so unclear about this?

Everyone please stay on point - i never said Mirror Image is concealment. It is a spell that creates Figments. It says in the spell description on Page 314 of the core rulebook "School - Illusion (figment)"

Please stop trying to say I think it is a concealment

Also stick to the rulebook quotes please as it makes distracting noise otherwise. This thread is about the interaction between those two spells. Use the rules to prove your argument.


I believe he meant that how many people here have been playing as long as you have.

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