Bloodrage and Arcane Strike


Advanced Class Guide Playtest General Discussion


I'm pretty sure that this question has been asked and answered alot. But how do Blood Rage and Arcane Strike interact or are they mutually exclusive?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just remember that arcane strike takes up your swift action each round you use it, and work out any other relations from there.

Silver Crusade

Level 1 Commoner wrote:
I'm pretty sure that this question has been asked and answered alot. But how do Blood Rage and Arcane Strike interact or are they mutually exclusive?

You can arcane strike any time you have a caster level and a swift action to spare.

Better question is have we confirmed whether or not the Bloodrager's caster level is class-3.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I know that. But is Arcane Strike a case of "While in bloodrage, a bloodrager cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration."? Infusing a weapon with eldritch powers needs a lot of concentration, at least from my uneducated perspective. Is there a definitive answer regarding this question?

Silver Crusade

I would wager with utter certainty that that last one doesn't apply to arcane strike.


Based on my understanding, I agree that it does not require concentration.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Level 1 Commoner wrote:
I know that. But is Arcane Strike a case of "While in bloodrage, a bloodrager cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration."? Infusing a weapon with eldritch powers needs a lot of concentration, at least from my uneducated perspective. Is their a definitive answer regarding this question?

Things that require concentration are standard actions. Arcane Strike is a swift.


I don't know if that's a good general rule. Making a standard action attack clearly doesn't require concentration, or regular barbarians would be in a lot of trouble, but casting a quickened spell is very likely intended to be something that does require concentration.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Joyd wrote:
I don't know if that's a good general rule. Making a standard action attack clearly doesn't require concentration, or regular barbarians would be in a lot of trouble, but casting a quickened spell is very likely intended to be something that does require concentration.

Not really. That's the whole point of quickened magic, it's so much a quick fire and forget spell, it doesn't even provoke from threathened spaces.


Not provoking an attack is not the same as not being subject to concentration.
A swift spell is just avoiding ONE means of provoking a concentration check.
It is still subject to concentration, if a concentration check is otherwise called for,
e.g. ongoing damage or violent motion or a READIED attack that interrupts the spellcasting.

Spellcasting and a few other similar things (extracts etc) are specifically associated with the game term "Concentration".
It does not seem wise to start applying that GAME TERM willy nilly when it is not invoked by the actual RAW.
"Patience" is not really used as a game term, but all actions in the game are given an action typing,
e.g. standard, swift, full-round, or another specific duration e.g. 1 minute, 4 rounds.
If one wants to invoke "Patience" then one should apply it equally to all actions using the same time/effort investment.

I would say that means that any action that is done in a full-round action or less will not invoke "Patience".
The line where Patience does happen isn't clear (1-round [more than full round]? 2 rounds? ???),
and remember that if a broader action can be 'broken down' into component actions which each fit into an approved aciton (i.e. standard/full-round)
then you can still achieve the broader action without invoking Patience, by just stepping thru each component action.

...SO, I would say Disable Device may very well invoke the 'No Patience" clause (normal min duration = 1 round, often multiple rounds)
and things like preparing spells from spellbook, and other actions which are not expressed in 'action terms' (full/standard/etc)
but whose minimum units are 1 round or more (minutes, etc) also would run into the "Patience" clause.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Arcane strike never triggers a concentration check and requires no skill check.


Thanks a lot for your answers. To summarize your postings: A definite answer regarding my question doesn't exist but you think that it works.


With a base class that now applies rage to arbitrary party members and another raging base class, I think a sidebar clarifying what you can and cannot do while raging - or at least offering additional guidance - makes a lot of sense. This feels a lot like the sort of thing that the design team thinks is unnecessary, but I know I'd definitely appreciate it. The Pathfinder rage restrictions description is actually a less detailed version of the one that accompanies the 3.5 barbarian, and dates to a time when the space of actions that a rager would likely be considering was much smaller than is now the case. It's not like you couldn't have a raging spellcaster before - there's even special options focused on that (domains, a PrC, etc.) - but having two new base classes that specifically focus on that, one of which has "now everybody rage" as a marquee feature shines a spotlight on non-barbarian ragers like never before.

There's something to be said for hand-wavey non-rules-y text as a method of communicating things as a catch-all, but at the end of the day, rage is a mechanical effect, and knowing whether or not the intent is for particular actions to be options under the effect is kind of important. (The question recently arose in one of my games whether you could Wild Shape while raging. The ruling was that you totally could, because if I'm angry and I can turn into a wolf, it's probably harder for me to not turn into a wolf, but it's not 100% clear; it probably seemed closer than it is because the player plays their wildshape as more of a spiritual investment than as controlled lycanthropy.)


Yep, that's why I'm asking. The rather "fluffy/handwavery" description of Rage needs a bit of clarification with the advent of the new Barbarian hybrid classes.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Do you see anything in the description of rage that says, "You cannot use combat feats that grant bonuses as a swift action?" Because that is what Arcane Strike is.


Level 1 Commoner wrote:
Yep, that's why I'm asking. The rather "fluffy/handwavery" description of Rage needs a bit of clarification with the advent of the new Barbarian hybrid classes.

By RAW arcane strike requires neither patience or concentration to do. There is no Chr, Dex, Int skill in order to use Arcane Strike. So it does work with rage. No handwavery, the rules are quite clear.

It's not like this is a new question. It came up in EK discussions about using arcane strike and spell critical on a Barbarbian1/Wizard5/EK10.


By RAW, brain surgery requires neither patience nor concentration to do. I don't think that Arcane Strike is disabled by raging, but I also don't think that that's unambiguously obvious from the text.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Joyd wrote:
By RAW, brain surgery requires neither patience nor concentration to do.

What the heck are you talking about?


RJGrady wrote:
Joyd wrote:
By RAW, brain surgery requires neither patience nor concentration to do.
What the heck are you talking about?

It would be a heal check which is wisdom-based. However, as a GM, I would rule that most heal checks fit under "any ability that requires patience or concentration."


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Right. So would I. Because the rule is written in English, not game terms. "Requires patience and concentration" isn't a technical definition - although concentration checks are a thing - and is clearly intended to cover things reaching far beyond Chr, Dex, and Int skill checks. We all believe Arcane Strike probably doesn't fall under the umbrella anyway, but there are tons of abilities where it's basically a judgement call with regards to whether they require patience or (especially) concentration. The rule is pretty obviously intended to cover things like brain surgery - most heal checks, in fact, and many Profession checks, despite those all being Wis-based. There are (Ex) and (Su) abilities that are very clearly on one side, and there are (Ex) and (Su) abilities that are very clearly on the other side. As I said, I agree that Arcane Strike falls pretty clearly on the "this is okay" side, but I wouldn't think someone was at all crazy for thinking otherwise. (In general, I lean really far towards things being allowable while raging, though.)


I don't want to repeat Joyd's points, so I'm going to narrow down my question: What's the RAI here?


Arcane strike is not stated nor implied to require patience or concentration, only a swift action and a caster level.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Yeah I really don't see why this is even a question. That's like asking if a Barbarian/Witch can still use hexes when raging. Of course she can, it's a supernatural ability, and supernatural abilities don't require concentration. Nothing about Arcane Strike suggests to me that it should require concentration.


Uh yeah... Is "brain surgery" done in a standard action? No.

"Action: Providing first aid, treating a wound, or treating poison is a standard action. Treating a disease or tending a creature wounded by a spike growth or spike stones spell takes 10 minutes of work. Treating deadly wounds takes 1 hour of work. Providing long-term care requires 8 hours of light activity."

First Aid, Treating Wounds (Caltrops, etc), Treating Poison are a Standard Action, no more "patience" than an Attack Action or any other allowed Standard Action.

If you want to go by "RAW", Brain Surgery is not mentioned in connection with Heal, period.
If you WANT to believe it is covered by the RAW of Heal, the RAW provides 10 minute duration for treating disease, 1 hour for treating deadly wounds, and 8 hours for providing long term care. Take your pick. Those are activities that go beyond the scope of normal combat actions, which the First Aid/Caltrops/Poison use of Heal fits within, as a Standard Action akin to the Attack Action.

Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Advanced Class Guide Playtest / General Discussion / Bloodrage and Arcane Strike All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion