Revised Arcanist Discussion


Class Discussion

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Jason Bulmahn wrote:

- Are there any other exploit ideas that folks would like to see. We've got a few that we are planning to add, but I want to see what you have to say.

- Arcane Barrier: swift action spend an Arcane Reservoir point to give yourself your level in hitpoints as temporary hitpoints, lasts 1 minute per level

- Instant Study: standard action spend Arcane Reservoir points equal to the spell level to replace a spell prepared with one from your spell book

- Natural Spell: spend an Arcane Reservoir point to cast a spell while beast-shaped or similarly polymorphed

- Share Spell: spend an Arcane Reservoir point to cast a spell with the range of personal on an ally, spell much be at least 2 levels below the highest level spell Arcanist can cast

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

@EricMcG - A couple weeks before they send it to the printer is probably too late to be writing whole new classes, I'm afraid.


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
- I plan on adding an exploit to get a familiar.

Unnecessary, IMO. Familiars (esp. Improved Familiars) are extremely powerful, and being unable to get one without Eldritch Heritage is one of the few weaknesses the Arcanist has when compared to its parent classes.

Quote:
- Are there any other exploit ideas that folks would like to see. We've got a few that we are planning to add, but I want to see what you have to say.

I still want to see my Blue Mage idea worked in, if only as an exploit and not a central feature of the class (DC 15 + twice spell level Fortitude save to learn a spell after you get hit with it).

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
And FYI... RAW runestones do not work for consume spells class feature.

They might as well: The point of using runestones is you expend the spell slot to gain AR, then effectively replace the spell slot with the runestone. It's better than eating scrolls or potions for the same reasons a Healing Belt is a better investment than a potion of cure moderate.

Rory wrote:
- Instant Study: standard action spend Arcane Reservoir points equal to the spell level to replace a spell prepared with one from your spell book

Hey look, it's our old friend Uncanny Forethought!


Jiggy wrote:
@EricMcG - A couple weeks before they send it to the printer is probably too late to be writing whole new classes, I'm afraid.

I thought the release was pegged for summer 2014? 6 months seems like a rather long run-up time for the book to be sitting at the printer, even with proofs and such taken into account.


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The flame arc exploit needs to have a status affect. It being able to do d6's is not enough. At least the others have secondary effects.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there folks,

There is some great feedback in this thread and I will be looking closely at a number of these issues. Of particular note:

- Table 1-1 has an obvious error with 4th and 5th levels being swapped in the title.
- We will be taking a close look at consume magic items to try and find a way to make this viable without breaking game balance. I've got a number of solutions in my head right now and I need to work with them a bit to find one that fits.
- The damage exploits are probably going to get a bit of a change to make them more viable.
- I plan on adding an exploit to get a familiar.
- Are there any other exploit ideas that folks would like to see. We've got a few that we are planning to add, but I want to see what you have to say.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

i'd love to see a greater force strike exploit, as well as maybe stuff to augment different schools (because necromancy needs love, and also corpses), not just the wizard emulation powers.

also an exploit or feat to bump up the (kinda terrible) base dice for the blasty exploits.


wraithstrike wrote:
The flame arc exploit needs to have a status affect. It being able to do d6's is not enough. At least the others have secondary effects.

I think that bumping damage a bit more (d8? d10) could do the trick. Or maybe turning into cone/line instead of ray?

Liberty's Edge

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

- I plan on adding an exploit to get a familiar.

- Are there any other exploit ideas that folks would like to see. We've got a few that we are planning to add, but I want to see what you have to say.

A familiar specifically, or an Arcane Bond? Because I don't care about a familiar, and a mage with a mage's staff is far more in line with the archetype. I was incredibly annoyed to see that, for some reason, the Arcane Bond was removed from an Arcanist's Arcane Bloodline exploit, since I can't see a reason to forbid it. It's not especially powerful, gives you a vulnerability if you lose it, and you can get it with a feat anyway.

I wouldn't mind that random restriction so much if I could at least use an Exploit to get a Bonded Item anyway.


Some exploit ideas:

- exploit that allows consuming spells with a move or maybe a swift action.

- exploit that allows adding some sort of interesting template to summoned monsters.

- exploit that allows telepathic sending of commands/requests to summoned/enchanted creatures overcoming lack of shared language and/or line of sight and hearing.

- maybe exploit that allows telepathic communication for a short time.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Exploits: First and foremost, the elemental ray attacks need some love. Low damage, draws from valuable pool, requires ranged touch attack, AND a save based on a secondary stat is just cruel.

I would like to see a return to the Bloodline/School expansion options; only ever having the 1st-lvl options is not fair to many of the schools and bloodlines and makes the class more 2-D.
If Arcanists could mix and match different levels of different Bloodlines and Schools, that would allow for much more dynamic characters. If there's a question of OP, make it so you have to "purchase" each level with an exploit, working up the chain.
That is my #1 wish for Exploits.

Why Consume Magic Items is still ok:

OK in general, great in non-PFS; why? The feat Scribe Scroll.
Grab Scribe Scroll and boom, you can crank out some very cheap 2nd-lvl scrolls that you can eat on the fly. Example: with Scribe, 2nd-lvl scrolls are 150gp a piece. So you could have 20 of those for 3000gp. Just at level 8, that's not even 10% of your WBL.
Not to mention how ridiculously cheap this becomes at later levels. So I don't see see how one could complain about it being useless. With a little investment, you can have a very steady stream of Reservoir coming from this Exploit. And that's just what you make on your own; the scrolls you find in the wild would be an added bonus. It isn't game-breaking, but it's definitely useful.

Other Exploits I'd enjoy seeing:
Spell Resistance: By expending one point from her arcane resevoir, an arcanist can give herself Spell Resistance equal to 6 + her arcanist level for a number of rounds equal to her Charisma modifier.
Greater Spell Resistance: By expending 2 points from her arcane resevoir, an arcanist can grant herself Spell Resistance equal to 11 + her arcanist level for a number of rounds equal to her Charisma modifier. The arcanist must have the spell resistance exploit before selecting this exploit.
Spell Resistance Synergy: When an arcanist's spell resistance (granted by her Spell Resistance or Greater Spell Resistance exploit) successfully stops an spell whose target including the arcanist, she can instead choose to let the spell affect her normally and automatically forgo her saving throw (if any). She gains a number of points to her reservoir equal to the amount of damage done to her divided by 10 (rounded down). For example, if she was targeted by a scorching ray and dealt 14 points of damage, she would regain one point of arcane reservoir. She can absorb a number of points in this way equal to her Charisma modifier. The arcainst must have the spell resistance exploit before selecting this exploit.


I don't think that 6+level SR is worth it... It's rarely enough to reliably thwart opponent with comparable of higher CL but it still tends to mess with buffs and healing provided by allies. I would start with SR 11+arcanist level as a greater exploit costing single point. Another exploit could allow activating the ability with a swift action or grant SR to a touched ally.

Shadow Lodge

Craft Cheese wrote:

First impressions from reading the class.

- Arcanist spells prepared per day were not changed. This makes me sad.

- Consume Magic Items and Counterspell were nerfed rather senselessly. Parry Spell seems to be completely gone.

- Bloodline Development looks really good: There's plenty of good bloodline arcanas to choose from, and you don't even need to lose a caster level by dipping sorcerer! Clarification though: Can you use this with Wildblooded variants (or Subschools for Wizards)?

- Spell Tinkerer went from Incantatrix-on-Crack to waste of an exploit slot. Can't say I'll mourn its loss.

All I have to say for now really as the class wasn't changed all that much from last week's revision.

I was glad to see that at least the Spells Per Day was reduced some, but really it should be reduced from the top as well as the bottom. Capping the spells per level at 4 helps keep this class from being overwhelming at high levels, but it is still absolutely kick ass at low to moderate levels. Something needs to be done to adjust the lower levels down in power or Arcanist will completely replace Wizard, and probably Sorcerer.

I would recommend that either the Arcanist start with just 1 spell per day in each new spell level when they gain a new spell (instead of 2), or change it so that their bonus spell comes from Charisma, instead of Intelligence. That way an Arcanist is not gaining the benefits of a high INT by just dumping his worst stat in CHA while getting high bonus spells.


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I disagree: At low levels is when the Arcanist is (currently) at its most disadvantaged when compared to its parents. At 1st level, an Arcanist with 20 INT has 2 1st-level spells prepared and 4 spell slots per day. A Sorcerer with 20 CHA knows 2 1st-level spells and has 5 spell slots per day. A specialist wizard with 20 INT has 4 different spells prepared. And with no higher-level spellslots they can't take advantage of spontaneous metamagic, which is one of their most powerful advantages (esp. with metamixing). It's not until around level 6 or so when the Arcanist starts to outpace its parents, and by level 10 the wizard and sorcerer are total jokes.


Exploits:

- Giving a bonus to penetrating spell resistance.

- Utility abilities, such as brief modes of movement or skill increases.

- Pseudo metamagic abilities, not necessarily full feat usage. Maybe +X to the spell level cost to use the actual feats though.


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Exploits that might be fun:

Wrest control of another spellcaster's spell.

Use metamagic feats on existing (not necessarily your own) spells/spell effects.

Metamagic "reversals" (Diminish Spell instead of Heighten Spell; Slow Spell instead of Quicken Spell- perhaps as a sort of spell interrupt/counterspell-like ability; etc.)

Might be difficult to implement, but these are the sorts of things I'd wanted to do with my own idea of a spellhacker over the years. Haven't really had any luck with it myself, but you guys are the designers and are much better than me! :)


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I feel like the School and Bloodline exploits are far too strong for the cost of an exploit, which is a feat-equivalent. Many of the schools have an ability that is already extremely powerful at level 1 (Foresight Diviner stands out, since it makes you immune to surprise, grants +1 initiative, and gives delicious pre-rolls for important rolls). The pre-rolls in particular I've seen playtested from level 1-13 in Kingmaker on a Diviner and it is not something you want to hand out lightly. I have seen characters profitably multiclass into diviner with a level 1 dip just for those abilities. Granting them all to an Arcanist is a huge blow to diviners.

Also, sorcerer bloodline arcana are hugely powerful, and I've seen wizards multiclass a single level dip into sorcerer to pick up profitable arcana. Now the arcanist can grab it at the cost of a feat (Extra Exploit) and also get the level 1 bloodline power for free (which normally costs two feats).

Granted, some of the worst level 1 bloodline powers (like the elemental rays) are dependent on sorcerer level, but many are not, and so they will be obvious choices.

For a sorcerer, getting another bloodline arcana requires going Crossblooded which gives a massive penalty to spells known, keeps you off your highest level spells for an added level, and gives -2 to all Will saves. And people still take the archetype for combos. Meanwhile, arcanist can grab the arcana and 1st level power all for one feat. (Yes the crossblooded can mix and match their other powers, but since they don't get both, that's a minor benefit--the major crux of every crossblooded character I've seen has been having both arcana).

Unlike most other exploits, these exploits grant a huge power boost to the arcanist without requiring any point expenditure (especially if you choose powers that don't really scale with level).


I'm really liking the revamp....the Arcanist has become my number one class of interest...can't wait to give one a try in game ;)


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Spell feedback as an exploit might be cool; tap into another spellcaster's magic and turn it back on them, or cause it to do damage to them so long as the spell is in effect.

Just spitballing.


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Craft Cheese wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Are there any other exploit ideas that folks would like to see. We've got a few that we are planning to add, but I want to see what you have to say.

I still want to see my Blue Mage idea worked in, if only as an exploit and not a central feature of the class (DC 15 + twice spell level Fortitude save to learn a spell after you get hit with it).

!

I also want to see a blue Mage exploit worked in. Pleaseeeee make it happen!

I would also like to see nan option to get eschew materials


Another one that I just thought of:

Spell Alteration: Change an existing spell/spell effect to another spell (probably something within the same school is the only way it might be doable, and it would probably have to be equal or lower level).


Cthulhudrew wrote:

Spell feedback as an exploit might be cool; tap into another spellcaster's magic and turn it back on them, or cause it to do damage to them so long as the spell is in effect.

Just spitballing.

Actually, that would be AWESOME !

Maybe tie it to the dispelling effects...un-weave there spell then cram the energies back down their throat :P


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I'd actually like to suggest a feat:

Extra Arcane Reservoir
Your powerful sense of self bolsters your natural magical talents.
Prerequisites: Arcane Reservoir class feature, Cha 13.
Benefit: When you prepare spells to replenish your arcane reservoir class feature, you gain an additional number of points equal to half your Charisma modifier (Minimum 1.)

Shadow Lodge

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Craft Cheese wrote:
I disagree: At low levels is when the Arcanist is (currently) at its most disadvantaged when compared to its parents. At 1st level, an Arcanist with 20 INT has 2 1st-level spells prepared and 4 spell slots per day. A Sorcerer with 20 CHA knows 2 1st-level spells and has 5 spell slots per day. A specialist wizard with 20 INT has 4 different spells prepared. And with no higher-level spellslots they can't take advantage of spontaneous metamagic, which is one of their most powerful advantages (esp. with metamixing). It's not until around level 6 or so when the Arcanist starts to outpace its parents, and by level 10 the wizard and sorcerer are total jokes.

I can't agree. The fact that an Arcanist can customize his spell list daily for any situation like a Wizard, but repeat cast like a Sorcerer is incredibly powerful. Especially with the bonus spells that a Wizard/Arcanist with high intelligence receives at first level. Right now an Arcanist gets as many starting spells as a specialist Wizard without the specialist's restriction on opposition schools. That's too good. The only think that keeps this from being a slam dunk is the Wizard's school powers and half of those stink.

If you want to balance the class so that Wizard is still viable compared to the Arcanist, reduce the Arcanist's spells per level to 1 for new spell levels and increase the Arcane Reservoir so that the Arcanist can stand on his own abilities at low level without replacing the Wizard as a class. As it is "...1 + 1/2 her arcanist level (minimum 0)..." seems kind of low and silly at the same time. How the heck are you going to have less than 1?


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A Spell Mimic exploit might be an interesting idea - target another caster on the field and the next time they cast a spell, you have the option on your next turn to cast that same spell for free.

I second the idea of a Spell Feedback exploit. I also think that granting an exploit to learn spells through observation might be interesting.


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Are there any other exploit ideas that folks would like to see. We've got a few that we are planning to add, but I want to see what you have to say.

The Magus' Knowledge Pool.


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Was at work, so couldn't properly elaborate on my "reverse metamagic" exploits idea above:

Spell Tinkerer is actually a good model, and kind of like the "Diminish Spell" idea I mentioned when suggesting the exploit above, so that's kind of already covered.

Going through the various feats, I don't see anything offhand that would necessarily (or easily) lend itself to reversal, but I guess I'm just looking for some more exploits along the lines of Spell Tinkerer, that would allow different ways to manipulate existing spells/spell effects.

Heck, even being able to use a Metamagic Feat on another spellcaster's spell might be interesting; Heighten your fellow Wizard's fireball for him; alter the elemental nature of an incoming spell cast by an enemy (sort of a mix of using this exploit with a counterspell - "I'm immune to cold, so I'll transform his fireball into ice, effectively negating half of its damage to me").

Etc.


I like to see exploits with the artificer as a concept, like Item creation could be taken multiply times or even better a Greater Item Creation exploit that allow you to change the Item creation you chose like the metamagic counterpart. Exploits that allow you to get a discount on GP and time for magic item creation, also an exploit that allow you to recharge charged items like staffs and an exploit that allow you to add metamagic to spell-like items.


I'd like to see Item Crafting and Metamagic Knowledge be able to be taken multiple times, but maybe no more than once every five levels. (1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th.)


Rogue Eidolon wrote:

I feel like the School and Bloodline exploits are far too strong for the cost of an exploit, which is a feat-equivalent. Many of the schools have an ability that is already extremely powerful at level 1 (Foresight Diviner stands out, since it makes you immune to surprise, grants +1 initiative, and gives delicious pre-rolls for important rolls). The pre-rolls in particular I've seen playtested from level 1-13 in Kingmaker on a Diviner and it is not something you want to hand out lightly. I have seen characters profitably multiclass into diviner with a level 1 dip just for those abilities. Granting them all to an Arcanist is a huge blow to diviners.

Also, sorcerer bloodline arcana are hugely powerful, and I've seen wizards multiclass a single level dip into sorcerer to pick up profitable arcana. Now the arcanist can grab it at the cost of a feat (Extra Exploit) and also get the level 1 bloodline power for free (which normally costs two feats).

Granted, some of the worst level 1 bloodline powers (like the elemental rays) are dependent on sorcerer level, but many are not, and so they will be obvious choices.

For a sorcerer, getting another bloodline arcana requires going Crossblooded which gives a massive penalty to spells known, keeps you off your highest level spells for an added level, and gives -2 to all Will saves. And people still take the archetype for combos. Meanwhile, arcanist can grab the arcana and 1st level power all for one feat. (Yes the crossblooded can mix and match their other powers, but since they don't get both, that's a minor benefit--the major crux of every crossblooded character I've seen has been having both arcana).

Unlike most other exploits, these exploits grant a huge power boost to the arcanist without requiring any point expenditure (especially if you choose powers that don't really scale with level).

Very important point. I think the Arcanist should have to spend a point to benefit from the Bloodline Arcana. They're very good.


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Starfox wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Are there any other exploit ideas that folks would like to see. We've got a few that we are planning to add, but I want to see what you have to say.
The Magus' Knowledge Pool.

An exploit that trades hit points for resevoir points, maybe at a 3hp for one point? I'm don't know what would be a good exchange rate. :/


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

All these exploits about counterspelling, how about one in the opposite? An exploit that causes any attempt to counter the arcanist's spell to feedback?


Ashram wrote:
I'd like to see Item Crafting and Metamagic Knowledge be able to be taken multiple times, but maybe no more than once every five levels. (1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th.)

Perhaps an archetype that can take it more than once would be okay.

I really would like an exploit for a familiar, as well as an exploit that allows you to take an Arcane Discovery.

Exploits that add INT to AC or saves for 1 round might be okay, though I don't know if anyone would ever take them or use them.


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Initial impressions (having only very briefly skimmed the old version):

Quote:
A spell prepared with a metamagic feat cannot be further modified with another metamagic feat (unless she has the metamixing exploit).

I expect this is unintended wording, but as written the Arcanist can't prepare a spell with two metamagic feats on it, even with the metamixing exploit. Specifically, the archaist can only add a metamagic feat to a spell. So no preparing maximized empowered fireball as an 8th level spell. Metamixing specifically lets them combine spontaneous with prepared metamagic, but still doesn't let them prepare multiple metamagic feats.

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Does Pathfinder have any Wizard-only or Sorcerer-only spells? I know 3.5 had a very few, mostly ones that wouldn't help the other class. If there are any, can an arcanist prepare them?

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See magic - does this give them permanent detect magic? As currently worded it does, with spending points to boost it. If it's supposed to be at will, that's slightly more reasonable (although still stronger than most other classes' detect abilities), but not clear from the text.

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Is it the intent that the Arcanist can only get one metamagic feat and one item crafting feat from their exploits? Should those two have "may be taken more than once" qualifiers?

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Capstone feels rather boring. It makes perfect sense, but it's not really exciting. At 20th level, the archaist only has 11 points, and already has up to 10 abilities which each require a point or two to activate. Casting extra low level spells with your 20th level ability is a waste, and casting extra high level spells renders most of their other abilities useless until they can recharge (which is very expensive).

I just realized that in combination with Consume Spells this is a pretty decent ability. "I'll turn three 3rd level spells into another 9th level one while the cleric heals us from that fight." Combine with a few 2nd level wands (10 points for 4500gp is relatively cheap at 20th level), and they can churn out high level spells all day long.

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It's also going to be important to clarify how pearls of power work for archaists. Technically, they do prepare spells and then cast them. Preparing it again is useless, but doing so as if it had not been cast is ambiguous. If they can use them, then pearls can become another source of arcane points.

Liberty's Edge

If you want to make the familiar available why not make it available through the arcane bloodline as well. You could forbid the bonded item if desired (though I don't feel it is an overpowered choice). I just want reiterate how poor of a choice Hand of the Apprentice is for a 1/2 BAB class and it relies on STR for dmg.

I would like to see an exploit which changes a single target spell with an ongoing effect (and possibly also harmless) to a communal version. So, you could convert mount to communal mount by expending points.

Also, could we get some way to attain immortality similar to the Wizard Arcane Discovery?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

For one, I would like to see the Consume items Items exploit be removed or have it to where it doesn't destroy the things. I would also change the name to more reflect the change.

I would like to see an exploit that would have the Arcanist use an item directly to fuel a spell or use other exploits instead of their original effects. This would still consume Potions but perhaps use charges equal to the spell level cast or two charges for using an exploit (4 for greater exploits) for wands and other items that use charges. I would exclude staffs from this.

An exploit to have a wandering eye to scout ahead. (This may be something for the greater exploits)

A greater exploit that would syphen spells from other spellcasters, fueling the Arcane Resevior.

I think an exploit to effect the Arcanist's vision, giving him a shadowed vision that sees everything as if light and shadow didn't exist. (meaning he sees all as it is without regard to lighting, darkness, weather effects, smoke, or magical means of obscuring such as Darkness or Obscuring Mist) Used for a round per Arcanist level.

An Exploit that absorbs spells used against the Arcanist as an Immediate action, able to use a spell slot to activate as well as a point from the reserve. This would put points into the reserve equal to the caster level of the spell absorbed.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Dark Archive

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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Are there any other exploit ideas that folks would like to see. We've got a few that we are planning to add, but I want to see what you have to say.

Here are some ideas that feel like they fit the spell hacker analogy:

Absorb Spell the ability to convert a targeted spell into arcane reservoir points when you succeed on your save against it.

Control Magic the ability to gain control of an ongoing magical effect, such as a summons, or a flaming sphere, or a dominate person, etc. using the arcane reservoir.

Effortless Concentration the ability to trade arcane reservoir points for rounds of concentrating on a spell as a swift action.

Metamagic Flexibility the ability to use arcane reservoir points to add metamagic to ongoing spell effects or spells cast by other people, or maybe even to other people's spells as they're being cast.

Spell Stacking the ability to cast while holding the charge on a touch spell.

Swift Dismiss the ability to dismiss dismissable spells as a swift (or even immediate) action.

Undispel Magic the ability to undo another caster's dispelling.


Drejk wrote:
LadyWurm wrote:
- Instead of all simple weapons, maybe just a couple (dagger and stick :D).
Really, that will change little without being a really meaningful limitation. Also, staff should have priority over dagger for weapon available for an ultimate caster.

I meant staff, calling it "stick" was a joke. What I'm really getting at is that I look at this class and see something more powerful than the wizard or sorcerer. I see it as too much of the best of both worlds.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

- Are there any other exploit ideas that folks would like to see. We've got a few that we are planning to add, but I want to see what you have to say.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Cthuludreww pointed out my first thoughts. Tinker is to extend spell, what grounding is to maximize spell; what viscous arcane is to quicken spell; what filtered is to empower spell. I think the capstone of this would be counterspell, ie the caster first learns to minimize a fireball, then learns to counter it entirely.

Similarly reducing an opponent's caster level check to beat SR or a version of the fereday (sp?) cage against spell's (DC reduction).
The arcane bond ability to cast a spell from the spellbook without prepping it seems right up the arcanist's ally.
Greater school/bloodline powers (though I agree it needs to not quite match the power of the parent class)
Any blue card from MtG works too.
I like being able to buff your allies spells as well. Allied spellcasting, ritual spellcasting or the like.
Add charisma modifier to those blasters (int to splash damage? that legal? really?)
A bluff to cast spell X when it's really spell Y.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there folks,

There is some great feedback in this thread and I will be looking closely at a number of these issues. Of particular note:

- Table 1-1 has an obvious error with 4th and 5th levels being swapped in the title.

And another- Level 14 is short a column.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
- Are there any other exploit ideas that folks would like to see. We've got a few that we are planning to add, but I want to see what you have to say.

What about something that let you mess around with auras? Not much good for PCs, but an NPC faking the opposite alignment, preventing their magic items from detecting as such, etc. could be interesting. Particularly if it wasn't self-only.

Along somewhat similar lines, what about something like the "emulate ______" usages of use magic device, but applied to spells? Not a whole lot of uses come to mind, but messing with someone else's holy word might be handy? A more potent spin on this would be treating any creature as humanoid for spells that can only target such.


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Exploit ideas:

Powering prepared spells with an AR point and expending a use from a magical item (of a spell that's of equal level or less. And the reverse (powering a magical item with spell slots).

Using the Aracnist's Caster Level and Ability Score to set the DC of a magic item (for items that don't replicate spells, assume DC 10 or less is a cantrip, DC 11/12 is 1st level, DC 13 is 2nd, DC 14/15 is 3rd, DC 16 is 4th, DC 17/18 is 5th, DC 19 is 6th, DC 20/21 is 7th, DC 22 is 8th, DC 23+ is 9th).


Would exploit chains to have further /multiple bloodline/school powers be too powerful?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Bardess wrote:
Would exploit chains to have further /multiple bloodline/school powers be too powerful?

I personally think so, yes. You can already get both a bloodline arcana and wizard school boosts to the same types of spells, so it's probably good enough. A greater exploit at higher levels to get access to your higher bloodline powers or wizard school powers should probably be available, though.

I'd like to see an exploit allowing you to cast spells from polymorphed shapes. That's one thing that I feel should be available as a feat for all casters, in fact. Maybe that would be easier... just put a more generic version of Natural Spell into this book, available to all casters who can cast polymorph spells and have a certain caster level (probably 4th).

An exploit allowing for the mixing of two spell effects might be cool... say you had shocking grasp and shield both prepared... expend a spell slot one level higher and an arcane point, and you can cast both together as a full-round action, then the next creature to attack you (IE your shield) gets hit by shocking grasp. It would probably be a complicated mechanic so it might not be feasible, but it sure would be cool and flavorful as the "spell tinkerer" class.

What about an archetype that focuses on magical traps (like the Trapper ranger, but all arcane)?


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wraithstrike wrote:
The flame arc exploit needs to have a status affect. It being able to do d6's is not enough. At least the others have secondary effects.

Haha... that provoked a funny thought...

The fact that flame arc was d6's instead of d4's made it seem worlds better in my mind. That is due only to my personal quirk of avoiding spells and abilities with d4's due to me not liking that die as much. The d6 was the bonus secondary effect for me. Weird, but funny.

In any event, the saving throw should be removed for the damage portion of the energy ray exploits. There already is a roll to hit.

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When I first read thru the bloodline/arcane class exploits, I thought it took an Arcane Reservoir point to swift action activate it at all for a minute. I thought that was really good for a lot of the bloodlines and arcane classes, a must have pick as it were.

Then I re-read them. The bloodlines and arcane class abilities are always on and it only takes an Arcane Reservoir point to make them act at a higher caster level. Oh wow... too good?


Idea for a new exploit:

Regurgitate spells ;)

As a full round action an Arcanist can use X points of her arcane reservoir to generate a new spell slot (of level X, matching the points spent) ie this is the opposite of consume spell. This can not be used to bring the total level of available spells over her total per day (ie to use this she must have already cast at least one spell that day), only prepared spells can still be cast and the spell must still be cast as normal (ie it is not cast as part of the full round action).

If this was thought to be overbalanced, the following qualifier could also be added: The spell generated must be used cast within one minute or else its energy disapates (the arcane point is not restored). This would mean that you would need to use this ability in the middle of a battle, sacrificing a full round just to provide the spell, and couldnt just use this ability between fights.

Also a greater version of this exploit could be made whereby you can generate one spell slot (again a level 3 slot requires 3 points), but the generated spell slot can be used for ANY of your known spells, not just those you prepared today. (again limitation of spell must be used within one minute).


I have a few thoughts on Arcanist Exploits I'd like to see. These may be met with a little resistance on this board but with proper framework I don't think they will will present any problems in most games.

Metamagic Savant- By expending Reservoir Points equal to a spell's original spell level the Arcanist can spontaneously add any metamagic feat he/she knows onto a spell and reduce the spell level increase by 1 (minimum 1).

Arcanist Penetration- By expending 1 Reservoir Point as an immediate action the Arcanist can increase his/her caster level by 4 to overcome Spell Resistance. This can be used anytime the Arcanist has to make a Caster Level check to overcome Spell Resistance but before the roll is made.

Elemental Admixture- By expending 1 Reservoir Point as an immediate action the Arcanist can alter the elemental descriptor of any Evocation spell he/she knows. They may switch the elemental damage of any Cold, Fire,or Electricity spell for another of the other descriptors. i.e. A 6th Level Arcanist could choose as they cast a Fireball to expend a point to switch the damage from Fire to Cold or Electricity.

I think Exploits such as these just make sense. In the Arcanist description it says;
"Arcanists, though, take a different route. By combining
innate magical talent with studious research, arcanists
can see magic for what it really is, allowing them to tear
apart the bonds that hold it together and force it to obey
their will."
These powers are right in line with that description.

Also I like the Effortless Concentration and Metamagic Flexibility Benn Roe suggested a few posts ahead of mine. Those seem to fit in very well with the flavor of the class.

P.S. @Jason Bulmahn, I know it has been brought up but an Exploit for a Familiar seems like kind of a no-brainer. Also, not in regard to Consume Magic Items, but in general can an Arcanist gain the benefit from either Pearls of Power or Runestones of Power, both or neither?


perrin2040 wrote:

Idea for a new exploit:

Regurgitate spells ;)

As a full round action an Arcanist can use X points of her arcane reservoir to generate a new spell slot (of level X, matching the points spent) ie this is the opposite of consume spell. This can not be used to bring the total level of available spells over her total per day (ie to use this she must have already cast at least one spell that day), only prepared spells can still be cast and the spell must still be cast as normal (ie it is not cast as part of the full round action).

If this was thought to be overbalanced, the following qualifier could also be added: The spell generated must be used cast within one minute or else its energy disapates (the arcane point is not restored). This would mean that you would need to use this ability in the middle of a battle, sacrificing a full round just to provide the spell, and couldnt just use this ability between fights.

Also a greater version of this exploit could be made whereby you can generate one spell slot (again a level 3 slot requires 3 points), but the generated spell slot can be used for ANY of your known spells, not just those you prepared today. (again limitation of spell must be used within one minute).

So, Spell Recall?


master_marshmallow wrote:
perrin2040 wrote:

Idea for a new exploit:

Regurgitate spells ;)

As a full round action an Arcanist can use X points of her arcane reservoir to generate a new spell slot (of level X, matching the points spent) ie this is the opposite of consume spell. This can not be used to bring the total level of available spells over her total per day (ie to use this she must have already cast at least one spell that day), only prepared spells can still be cast and the spell must still be cast as normal (ie it is not cast as part of the full round action).

If this was thought to be overbalanced, the following qualifier could also be added: The spell generated must be used cast within one minute or else its energy disapates (the arcane point is not restored). This would mean that you would need to use this ability in the middle of a battle, sacrificing a full round just to provide the spell, and couldnt just use this ability between fights.

Also a greater version of this exploit could be made whereby you can generate one spell slot (again a level 3 slot requires 3 points), but the generated spell slot can be used for ANY of your known spells, not just those you prepared today. (again limitation of spell must be used within one minute).

So, Spell Recall?

Effectively but I tried to balance it slightly by adding the requirements of a full round action (vs swift) because a slot for an arcanist could then be used for any of their prepared spells (while I think a magus must choose which spell to recall).


Czarzian wrote:

I have a few thoughts on Arcanist Exploits I'd like to see. These may be met with a little resistance on this board but with proper framework I don't think they will will present any problems in most games.

Metamagic Savant- By expending Reservoir Points equal to a spell's original spell level the Arcanist can spontaneously add any metamagic feat he/she knows onto a spell and reduce the spell level increase by 1 (minimum 1).

Elemental Admixture- By expending 1 Reservoir Point as an immediate action the Arcanist can alter the elemental descriptor of any Evocation spell he/she knows. They may switch the elemental damage of any Cold, Fire,or Electricity spell for another of the other descriptors. i.e. A 6th Level Arcanist could choose as they cast a Fireball to expend a point to switch the damage from Fire to Cold or Electricity.

For the metamagic one I would actually remove the (minimum 1), if you are spending 4 arcane points on a 4th level spell you should be able to use a 1 level metamagic effect for a cost of 0 (IMO).

For the elemental this is already covered better by taking the admixture school of wizardry, that way you can have a free 3+Cha changes of energy type per day without expending any points.


perrin2040 wrote:

For the metamagic one I would actually remove the (minimum 1), if you are spending 4 arcane points on a 4th level spell you should be able to use a 1 level metamagic effect for a cost of 0 (IMO).

For the elemental this is already covered better by taking the admixture school of wizardry, that way you can have a free 3+Cha changes of energy type per day without expending any points.

For the metamagic that was my original idea, but I thought someone would object due to abuse with low level buff spells being Extended+ Spell Tinker for what could amount to only 2-3 points and lasting a very long time.

For the Elemental version I'd prefer to have the option as an Arcanist alone. As well as instances where someone would prefer taking another school power (Lingering Evocations for example) but having a nice option as a blaster.


Czarzian wrote:
perrin2040 wrote:

For the metamagic one I would actually remove the (minimum 1), if you are spending 4 arcane points on a 4th level spell you should be able to use a 1 level metamagic effect for a cost of 0 (IMO).

For the elemental this is already covered better by taking the admixture school of wizardry, that way you can have a free 3+Cha changes of energy type per day without expending any points.

For the metamagic that was my original idea, but I thought someone would object due to abuse with low level buff spells being Extended+ Spell Tinker for what could amount to only 2-3 points and lasting a very long time.

For the Elemental version I'd prefer to have the option as an Arcanist alone. As well as instances where someone would prefer taking another school power (Lingering Evocations for example) but having a nice option as a blaster.

For the metamagic one that could easily be fixed with "spells affected by this metamagic exploit can not be further altered (eg by spell tinkering)."

For the elemental, thats fair enough, its just a heavy price to pay (1 point) to change the energy type in comparison, but any less price and it would be overpowered too, screwed no matter what ;)

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