Lead Designer
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This thread is for discussing the REVISED version of the Arcanist. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.
Once you have had a chance to playtest the revised version, please be sure to update your survey results, which can be found HERE
Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
**OFFICIAL UPDATES**
- In Table 1–1, in the Spells per Day columns, the 4th and 5th level spell tags are swapped. The spells on the table are correct, but their titles at the top of the table should be reversed.
- In that same table, at 14th level, all of the spells per day should be moved to the right one position, and a new "4" should be added at 1st level. This level should read 1st-4, 2nd-4, 3rd-4, 4th-4, 5th-4, 6th-4, 7th-2.
Is there supposed to be a limit to the number of School Understanding and Bloodline Development Exploits an Arcanist can select?
As written, it looks like the Arcanist could take the Orc and Draconic Bloodlines, the Admixture School and Blast like a champ without needing to spend any AR points.
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Lead Designer
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Is there supposed to be a limit to the number of School Understanding and Bloodline Development Exploits an Arcanist can select?
As written, it looks like the Arcanist could take the Orc and Draconic Bloodlines, the Admixture School and Blast like a champ without needing to spend any AR points.
Unless otherwise noted, you cannot take any individual exploit more than once.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Oh, you can't take them more than once? Makes me think less of those metamagic exploits then...
Is there supposed to be a limit to the number of School Understanding and Bloodline Development Exploits an Arcanist can select?
As written, it looks like the Arcanist could take the Orc and Draconic Bloodlines, the Admixture School and Blast like a champ without needing to spend any AR points.
Unless otherwise noted, you cannot take any individual exploit more than once.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Ah, there it is, right there in the text. Sorry 'bout that.
Still makes Orc and Admixture a fun combination. Not there's anything wrong with that.
Ooh, now I can get the Orc bloodline and Admixture school power without multiclassing. Oh frabjous day!
Yeah but only the first level abilities.
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Yeah but only the first level abilities.
...What's your point? I barely even remember what the other abilities are. Those first-level abilities could make the Arcanist the master blaster caster.
Can we use Bloodline Development to grab the bloodline arcana/1st level bloodline power of a Wildblooded Bloodline?
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First impressions from reading the class.
- Arcanist spells prepared per day were not changed. This makes me sad.
- Consume Magic Items and Counterspell were nerfed rather senselessly. Parry Spell seems to be completely gone.
- Bloodline Development looks really good: There's plenty of good bloodline arcanas to choose from, and you don't even need to lose a caster level by dipping sorcerer! Clarification though: Can you use this with Wildblooded variants (or Subschools for Wizards)?
- Spell Tinkerer went from Incantatrix-on-Crack to waste of an exploit slot. Can't say I'll mourn its loss.
All I have to say for now really as the class wasn't changed all that much from last week's revision.
Parry Spell is a feat, not an exploit, and is still very much around.Parry Spell seems to be completely gone.
Huh. Well, I'm an idiot. Reinforcing my misremembering was that the podcast said Parry Spell was going to be nerfed.
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4. Bloodline Development adds a lot of options to the class and those options will only increase as more bloodlines are released.
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6. School Understanding: I foresee many Divination School Arcanists in the future. Charisma will remain a dump stat as people will cherry pick ones which don't require Int. Also making Wizard powers work off Charisma doesn't make much sense.
Eh, not really seeing the problem with either of these. Yeah the Divination power is good, but there are whole sessions where you'll never be surprised either and then it's a waste. The initiative buff only works if you activate it ahead of time.
5. Counterspell remains very strong even with the level+1 limitation. It still feels like a must have as enemies spellcasters are pretty much the most dangerous thing you will ever face.
Which is fine because this class appears designed to be able to take on spellcasters anyway. Remember also that many of the more dangerous enemy "spellcasters" are in fact using SLA and Su abilities which can't be countered at all, making this exploit wasted in those fights.
7. See Magic seems wholly irrelevant given you get Detect Magic. It maybe saves you a little time.
It also saves you preparing Identify and Arcane Sight and lets you take 15 on the check.
I could see taking the Sylvan bloodline, then for a number of times per day unleash a stronger animal companion.
"I usually keep my pet tiger cub close, but in a jiffy he'll be happily hacking lives while I hack magic!"
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so going to make one of these for PFS now great rebuild.
this class gives you a real feel of multiclassing without actually doing it.
all of these classes should have some of that. why do people multiclass? to gain benefits that were probably not thought of by the designers of the class so the ability to offer the option of choosing a bloodline if you want to great. you could see this class several times and each time it will play differently.
I still think that arcane exploits should follow either hexes progression (1st level and every even level) or talent/rage powers progression (every even level).
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The changes to the arcanist this time around were subtle, but I think most of them were good.
My current gripes are:
1) Consume Magic Items and Consume Spells still require a standard action. This feels wrong because it makes managing your resources on the fly much, much more difficult. I should note that most of the "good" exploits don't require a standard action to activate, meaning that consuming as a standard action matters less for a power-gamer, but for someone who actually wants to use the blasts, this is a big deal.
2) I still think Charisma should factor into your starting number of arcane reservoir points (Cha modifier + half level points), though this might be awkward at low levels given the new maximum of double your level rather than three times.
Otherwise, I feel like this class is awesome. I'm super stoked that Dimensional Slide was expanded to work with withdraw actions, I don't mind the nerfs to Counterspell (though I don't think they were necessary), I'm glad the blasts got buffed up at least a little bit, I love the addition of the school power and bloodline exploits, the nerfs to Spell Tinkerer make both halves feel a little weak now, but it was definitely too strong before, etc.
I'm more or less indifferent to the lowering of the maximum number of points. It sucks a little bit at 1st level, but after that it doesn't seem like it'll matter much. I'm definitely happy with the direction this is going, though I'd still love to see more variety of exploits.
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Interesting changes:
1) See magic, missed an e for '...expends on point...'
2) Interesting that Consume magic Item puts a restriction on staff consumption. I supposed people will be going back to the runes/pearls instead.
3) I'm suprised there is no further exploit tree to gain the higher up benefits of the bloodline/school power, either as standard or greater exploits.
4) With the school powers/bloodline, the elemental attacks from the arcane resevoir seems to be negated fairly harshly. Since they have 3+ uses while the powers need some of your very little resevoir points, it does seem silly, even with the increased damage at later levels.
5) See magic, might of been cooler if detect magic was always active (with an option to turn it off as needs be). At the moment I'm not sure its worth having when you have detect magic as a cantrip.
The Illusion that charisma is a needed stat bugs me.
Either give the class more incentive to use charisma instead of the blasts or eliminate the need for it completely.
It almost reminds me of the warlock from 3.5 in that you don't even need charisma even though class features revolve around it.
Points of Interest for me:
-See Magic is like low grade arcane sight, it's cool.
-With School Understanding, do arcane schools get an extra prepare slot? Without an opposed schools since it explicitly calls that out? That's sorta amazing if so since that brings up it's spell levels to where it should be.
-Tinker got the nerf it ineeded. Glad to hear it.
- Counter Drain is very nice indeed as well as the other options that recharge your pool. Making it points = level right.
-Still sad to see it's a Standard Action to consume spells/magic items tho.
Dot
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My thoughts on the read through.
There still is not very much you can do to gain points at low levels and the Greater exploits that gain points (without the expensive eating of items) has a chain of three to get to it.
Here is my suggestions on some of this.
Axe the Item Eating. If you need to have this exploit in some way, have it suppress the item for weeks (or for the session and next in PFS) or change in some way. (wands use double charges to use after having given a point to the Arcanist, Staffs has highest power that uses one charge be unavailable, Potions durations go down by a round or are less effective by one. *CLW are only 1d8 instead of the standard 1d8 + 1* and so on)
Have See Magic be able to be activated as long as there is at least a point in the reserve. (Spending a point for Quickened Detect Magic?)
Have Acid Jet use the same wording as the other two 1d4 damage plus powers (The target can attempt a Fortitude check to negate the sickened condition).
I think the Arcanist might be a bit better if they regain points as they use spell slots, using Consume Spells to double the points gained instead of casting a spell. This would also be nice in conjunction to the 20th level capstone. There also needs to be an exploit to change this to a move or swift action, or perhaps a feat.
I am hoping that the Exploits are a sample of what we should expect and that more will be included with the class in the finished book. The Greater Exploits in particular needs some entries that stand on their own instead of needing the previous exploit to get.
As it stands at the moment, my playstyle would not get me very many points and I would basically only sac slots in extreme cases. I would most likely never get much more than the starting points per day, which is still pitiful. (Which has a purpose, I realize, but I will never eat items. I am not a barbarian.)
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I'm happy to see that you addressed most of my first point posted here (I would still put metamagic feat in plural, since a spell could conceivably be prepared with more than one applied, but that's fairly minor). The second point, however, could still be cleared up, so I'll repost it:
2 - It isn't clear if the Arcanist needs to prepare spells every day. The way it stands now, I'd say that the Arcanist only needs to prepare spells when she wants to change her loadout, or to take advantage of new spell slots due to leveling up. That's fine by me, but I'm not sure that's your intent. A simple clarification, saying "The Arcanist must prepare spells every day." or "The Arcanist doesn't need to prepare spells each day. If she doesn't, she can still cast the spells she had prepared beforehand." would be nice.
I still think Arcane reservoir should refresh equal to Cha + 1/2 Arcanist level, apart from that my favorite class by far.
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2 - It isn't clear if the Arcanist needs to prepare spells every day. The way it stands now, I'd say that the Arcanist only needs to prepare spells when she wants to change her loadout, or to take advantage of new spell slots due to leveling up. That's fine by me, but I'm not sure that's your intent. A simple clarification, saying "The Arcanist must prepare spells every day." or "The Arcanist doesn't need to prepare spells each day. If she doesn't, she can still cast the spells she had prepared beforehand." would be nice.
I believe it is the same as the Sorcerer. Unless you want to change your spells, you only need to recharge your slots per day. (Or to put it simply, your known spells are there, you recharge your used per day every night.) The last sentence you have in quotes is likely the best summation.
I believe it is the same as the Sorcerer. Unless you want to change your spells, you only need to recharge your slots per day. (Or to put it simply, your known spells are there, you recharge your used per day every night.) The last sentence you have in quotes is likely the best summation.2 - It isn't clear if the Arcanist needs to prepare spells every day. The way it stands now, I'd say that the Arcanist only needs to prepare spells when she wants to change her loadout, or to take advantage of new spell slots due to leveling up. That's fine by me, but I'm not sure that's your intent. A simple clarification, saying "The Arcanist must prepare spells every day." or "The Arcanist doesn't need to prepare spells each day. If she doesn't, she can still cast the spells she had prepared beforehand." would be nice.
I think that's the intent too, but a simple clarification wouldn't hurt.
I will read this one later.
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I still think Arcane reservoir should refresh equal to Cha + 1/2 Arcanist level, apart from that my favorite class by far.
Really, I don't think there need to be a bigger starting point for the Reserve if the Arcanist could get points without spending his resources or munching items like a crazed magic hating savage.
I realize that there needs to be some give and take, but the current standard is a gold siphon or a replacement for spells. (Do you want to use exploits or cast spells?)
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I would like to request another alternative ability for the Arcane Bloodline or allowing Arcane Bond. I just don't see Hand of the Apprentice as a fitting selection. Wielding a weapon does not seem to fit the class. Also, throwing a weapon once with 1/2 BAB even adding the Arcanist's INT modifier is one step away from wasting a turn. At higher levels this ability will be completely forgotten and isn't particularly useful at low levels.
I am fine with not wanting to grant the Arcane Bond feature, but that feature is already available as a feat to any class. Removing the arcane bond feature from the bloodline only adds a bit more work to get the feature (Skill Focus and Eldritch Heritage). I would rather see the class gain this feature than some random replacement which is going to add word count and complicate the description for little gain.
I'd like to see an exploit that lets you use the energy exploits a number of times equal to the attacks granted by BAB, so after 11th level, an Arcanist could use Flame Arc twice, at BAB +6/+1. It makes sense, I think.
Speaking of Flame Arc, isn't it odd that it requires a ranged touch attack and a reflex save? Typically it's either-or, that just seems like a nerf.
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- Consume Magic Items and Counterspell were nerfed rather senselessly. Parry Spell seems to be completely gone
The only difference with Consume Magic Items is that you can only draw 1 charge from a staff per day now. Otherwise it reads exactly the same as the first revision (down to the "looses/loses" typo.)
Seems like the kind of nerf I can live with.
Speaking of Flame Arc, isn't it odd that it requires a ranged touch attack and a reflex save? Typically it's either-or, that just seems like a nerf.They all had saves for half damage before. Fire is the only one the kept it. This and the fact there's a lot of fire resistance makes the fire one REALLY awful.
These abilities still are not worth a point to use, generally. Perhaps the cold one for the staggered condition if you can get it off. On the other hand, that depends on Charisma and there's no particular reason to pump charisma high. Hardly anything in the class uses it, so pumping charisma for a minor ability would be silly.
And if you want a decent attack, you can just use the School and Bloodline access.
School attacks and bloodline attacks typically aren't worth it much either. Now, I might spend a point to get a bloodline arcana for increased damage, make my lightning strike for 10d4+10.
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Instead of an addition, I think this class needs more nerfing, and I've seen several people saying the same thing. It's power and versatility are incredible.
- d4 hit die, indicating that they're even more of a shut-in than Wizards.
- Instead of all simple weapons, maybe just a couple (dagger and stick :D).
My thinking is that this class is so intensely devoted to magic, and has achieved such a great mastery of it, that there's literally no room for anything else in their life. The Arcanist would by the guy who can't even tie his own shoes without a spell.
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Out of curiousity
Each day when
preparing spells, the arcanist’s arcane reservoir fills with
raw magical energy, gaining a number of points equal to
1 + 1/2 her arcanist level (minimum 0).
How do you get down to 0 if you start with 1 + 1/2 level? I mean I have heard of negative levels but not effecting this kind of ability.