Monkplayer |

Half-Orc Paladin is smiting and 10th level using a Orc Double Axe doing 1D8+8 damage per hit. On a critical hit he does X3 damage. How can this character do 75+ points on a single hit while smiting? He did over 125 points in two hits last session and only one of these hits was a critical confirmation.

Strength ability score is 20.

Majuba |

As Rogue said: 1d8+28 (first hit bonus for those types) crit'ing = 3d8+84, plus 1d8+18 for a regular hit = an average of 120 points. If he didn't crit the first hit (or it wasn't outsider/dragon/undead), the average would be 90 points.

Edit: ninja'd of course, but he also could have had his divine bond active (if he has the weapon bone version), for +2 (+8 with crit + hit) or +2d6 (avg. +14) for two Holy hits.

carborundum RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32 |

Say he does 5 on the d8 - that's 13 damage. Add smite for another 10 to 23. Triple it - 69 damage.

Was it an evil outsider/dragon/undead? Then that's 13 plus 20 = 33, tripled to 99.

That's without power attack, of course.

It's only a few times a day, and only against those foes, and it's, like, their best trick, and he's tenth level - which should be pretty awesome.

As long as the adventuring day isn't fifteen minutes, and there are plenty of mooks to keep everyone happy, it's all gravy :-)

EDIT: Multiple ninjas :-)

williamoak |

If I crit while spell striking with my dervish dancing magus, I do 2*(1d6+6)(weapon)+18d6 (shocking grasp). Which can get high. And I'm only level 9. Buffed (and lucky) I have one-shoted creatures of my own CR alone. So it's quite doable.

In his case, smite would give +10, power attack +6, weapon +8 (as already stated), which brings to 1d8+24 (minimum). Multiplied by 3, it easily gives 3d8+72 damage, the minimum value of which is 75.

Gauss |

Assuming a +6 strength, a +2 weapon, +6 power attack, and +10 smite his average damage (before crit) is 28.5. x3 crit = 85.5.

Add in a second attack and you get 114 average.

Tack onto that the spell Litany of Righteousness and now he does double damage (triple +double = quadruple). That would become: 114 for a critical and 57 for a regular hit.

Finally, against Evil Dragons/Outsiders or Undead he adds 10 points of damage further on a smite (30 on a crit) on the first hit.

In short, this is nothing atypical for a Paladin.

Note: is using the double weapon in 2-handed mode the Strength damage goes up by 3 (9 on a crit) and the Power Attack damage goes up by 3 (9 on a crit).

FlySkyHigh |

Yeah, everyone else has pretty much already covered this. People can do absurd amounts of damage even at lower levels. Though the fact remains that a simple smite/crit vs. the right opponent is going to do a minimum of 3d8+84 points of damage, which easily overcomes the 75+ marker, and that's not including any possible magical properties of the weapon.

The Beard |

Doing 75 damage on crit, especially with smite activiated, is honestly not that high at all. It's laughably low, especially if they are using a times three or four weapon. For example, my barbarian is very close to dolling out 150 damage on a critical hit with an earth breaker, and that's assuming only average rolls. It's currently level 11. A paladin I frequently play with is capable of pulling semi-comparable numbers if it's able to smite an undead, dragon or evil outsider. Even just against an evil opponent they absolutely destroy the 75 damage marker. Its player did a decent job on the build.

Dexion1619 |

Missing way too much information to be of any help. Base damage is 3d8+54 on a Smite-Crit (max 78), but that can easily be much higher at that level.

Lets assume his Axe is a base +1 magic weapon too start.

If His weapon is his divine bond, he could be making it a +3 weapon, or a +1 Holy Weapon.

+3 Weapon, Smite Crit. 3d8 + 21 (str, two handed x3) +9 (+3 magic x3) +30 (+10 smite, x3), max 84

+1 Holy Weapon, Smite Crit 3d8 + 21 (str, two handed x3) +3 (+1 magic x3) +30 (+10 smite, x3) + 2d6 (Holy) max 90

So yea, its possible. And yea, if its an evil outsider or dragon the numbers are a LOT higher.

Benn Roe |

Is this a weapon with an enhancement bonus (I'm assuming +1 based on your assertion that his bonus is +8)? Is he using Power Attack? Including smiting damage and Power Attack damage, this is pretty easy to do with a crit. Honestly, with both Smite and Power Attack, between a single crit and a regular hit, 125 is not inconceivable.

**NORMAL DAMAGE**

Weapon Base: 1d8 = 4.5 on average

Strength Bonus: +7 (1.5 times +5 Str modifier)

Enhancement Bonus: +1

Power Attack: +9 for BAB +10

Smite: +10 (or +20 against evil outsiders, etc.)

-------------

31.5 (or 41.5)

Even assuming the lower value there, at 31.5, multiplying that times four gives you 126 expected damage as the total combined damage of a crit and a regular hit. So, it sounds like he was right on par.

EDIT: A thousand times ninja'd.

DOUBLE EDIT: My 1st level bloodrager recently crit three times during a Pathfinder Society scenario, dealing between 62 and 74 damage each time. I can understand you wanting to know *how* he was getting 75+ damage on a crit, but I hope you're not implying that it's extraordinarily high. Again, this was a *1st level* bloodrager.

Claxon |

Well...

The paladin adds their level to damage rolls.

So, assuming he can smite his target he would then be dealing 1d8 (weapon) + 7 (1.5 strength, two-handed weapon) + 10 smite + power attack on a regular hit. So 1d8+7+10+9 = 1d8+26. Now a critical hit would multiply all that by three. So, that would be 3d8+78.

SO maybe he doesn't have power attack. 3d8+51. Average damage on 3d8 is 13.5. Which is 64. Max would be 75.

So its feasible. Without knowing exactly what he has thats all I can say.

Gauss |

Even with a 15 pt point buy you can easily get +6 strength by level 10. The main loss would be the ability to 2-weapon fight (due to lack of dexterity) but that isn't really a loss. 2-handed is generally considered better than 2-weapon.

Str 14 (+5)

Dex 12 (+2)

Con 14 (+5)

Int 10 (+0)

Wis 8 (-2)

Cha 14 (+5)

Total: 15

Starting Strength is 16 after racial bonus and then +2 for level and +4 for Belt of Giant Strength (reasonable equipment at level 10) for a total strength of 22.

That still comes out with the numbers I posted above where the average damage for a 1d8 weapon is 28.5 or 34.5 2-handed (+2 magic weapon with 22 strength, Power Attack, and Smite)

Lifat |

3 people marked this as a favorite. |

The really big question is: Why are you asking us if you are the GM? If your player is doing something you have doubts about, ask him/her to explain how they do it. Not only would that be acceptable, but if I was a player in the group I'd expect you to ask. (By that I simply mean that as a player I would want my GM to ask how his players are doing the stuff they are doing if he had doubts, otherwise gamebalance is going out the window)

That said as others have stated, truth is that your player is actually underpowered if he is only critting for 75 damage on a x3 crit at lvl 10 paladin (assuming he is smiting a target).

Lord_Malkov |

Anyone ever seen a litany, smite, lance charge crit on a dragon?

At level 10, Str 20, Power Attack, +1 lance.

Spirited Charging with a lance + PA: 3d8+51

With smite: 3d8+111

Add litany: 4d8+148

Add crit: 6d8+222 (249 average)

So there you go, level 10 paladin dealing 249 damage on a crit at level 10, and one-shotting a CR 15 "Very Old Black Dragon".

James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies |

Gauss |

**Monkplayer**, please supply the following:

Strength, feats, target creature type, and was he using the weapon 2weapon or 2handed?

Even without a magic weapon with a +6 strength and Divine Bond (+2) he could do the damage I laid out earlier. With Litany of Righteousness he could do that and more.

I am curious why he has no magic weapons at level 10.

James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies |

James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies |

Why the cave druid?

I was thinking vital striking behemoth hippo with strongjaw.

Behemoth hippo is huge (too many Druid levels) but Arsinotherium is the same damage and only Large. But the damage caps at 24d8 damage with Vital Strike. But 24d8 is only 384 + 38 (my base is +19) on a crit.

Durinor |

My back of a napkin 10th level paladin, with modest magic items for level and moderate optimisation:

20 Strength

Power Attack

+2 Strength Belt

+2 Greataxe

Damage with Power Attack: 1d12+20 (26.5 average)

Damage with Power Attack and Smite: 1d12+30 (36.5 average)

Critical Damage with Power Attack and Smite: 3d12+90 (109.5 average)

First hit and Critical Damage with Power Attack and Smite, against undead: 3d12+120 (139.5 average)

As so many others have said, your PC is a bit underpowered.

Edit: Changed doubleaxe to greataxe

blahpers |

blahpers wrote:CWheezy wrote:Cave druid because you get the ooze form with a 7d8 base attackHoly 10'-by-10'-by-10' room for Jell-O. And I'd thought the behemoth hippo was the be-all, end-all for wild shaped single hit damage.Feral Combat Training and dip Monk.

Flurry of explosions of damage.

For single-hit, I'd rather just use the Vital Strike chain. (DR lol)

James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies |

James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies |

Belafon |

And how does an 11th level Druid have Improved Vital Strike (requires BAB +11)?

And how did you get a ranger combat style?

And yeah, the additional damage dice from Vital Strike or Improved Vital Strike (or Greater) don't multiply on a critical.

Edit: I do agree that INA and *strong jaw* stack, but enough people disagree that I wouldn't try it in PFS.

James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies |

Are you critting the vital strike damage?

have Improved Vital Strike (requires BAB +11)?

Boo, the bane of quick math and not looking things up is you make mistakes.

I've got this built at 10th, and misremembered IVS at BAB +9 instead of BAB +11. You have 6th Level Druid and the rest are Fighter and Ranger levels.

So 605 on a Crit calculated correctly at 10th or 11th level.

Archaeik |

Majuba wrote:Are you critting the vital strike damage?Belafon wrote:have Improved Vital Strike (requires BAB +11)?Boo, the bane of quick math and not looking things up is you make mistakes.

I've got this built at 10th, and misremembered IVS at BAB +9 instead of BAB +11. You have 6th Level Druid and the rest are Fighter and Ranger levels.

So 605 on a Crit calculated correctly at 10th or 11th level.

I'm so lost...

How are you gaining access to the level 10 wild shape powers without 10 levels of druid(cave druid)?Belafon |

Majuba wrote:Are you critting the vital strike damage?Belafon wrote:have Improved Vital Strike (requires BAB +11)?Boo, the bane of quick math and not looking things up is you make mistakes.

I've got this built at 10th, and misremembered IVS at BAB +9 instead of BAB +11. You have 6th Level Druid and the rest are Fighter and Ranger levels.

So 605 on a Crit calculated correctly at 10th or 11th level.

Still trying to figure this out...

The formula for damage on a vital strike crit is:

(Damage Dice x crit multiplier) + Damage Dice[from Vital Strike] + (Static Damage x crit multiplier)

We know you're using a x2 crit weapon (a natural attack) so we can simplify this to:

(Base Damage x 3) + (Static Damage x2)

Working backwards:

**Actual Math:**

[edit]Nevermind, figured it out. Only 1 natural attack type means 1.5x strength bonus to damage.

605 - (19x2) = 567

*OK, we already have a problem. Unless you have somehow discovered dice with an odd number of sides, there's no way to have this be an odd number. Not sure what happened here.

I'll go ahead and divide by 3 to get

567/3 = 189

The damage dice is most likely a D8, so I'll divide by 8

189/8 = 23.625

That's pretty close to 24, so I'm guessing you are using 24D8 as your base.

Aha! I think I see what happened here! 24x8x3 = 576. You probably transposed that to 567 before adding the static damage.

So you are using a base damage of 24D8 (with INA and

*strong jaw*). Does anyone know of an official damage table that goes above 12D8? (Or for that matter tells you what 7D8 goes to with a size bonus?)

I think how you arrived at that number is going to be your bigger problem with GMs than INA+*strong jaw*

Belafon |

There is a ranger/druid feat which allows your ranger and druid levels to stack for determining wild shape and favoured enemy

Actually, that feat (Shapeshifting Hunter) only determines how many times per day you can use wild shape. Shaping Focus on the other hand adds 4 to your druid level for determining all aspects of wild shape (up to a maximum of your character level).

Glutton |

Something no one has mentioned: Early printings of the core rules indicated that Paladins got double damage against undead, evil clerics and the like. That has been changed to double damage **on the first hit** against these creatures, and regular smite damage on subsequent attacks. Just make sure double damage isn't being always applied.