My 10th level gamers paladin is doing 75+ points on critical. How's that possible?


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Half-Orc Paladin is smiting and 10th level using a Orc Double Axe doing 1D8+8 damage per hit. On a critical hit he does X3 damage. How can this character do 75+ points on a single hit while smiting? He did over 125 points in two hits last session and only one of these hits was a critical confirmation.

Strength ability score is 20.


Was the crit the first hit against an evil outsider, dragon, or undead? If not, then it's still possible to do over 75 if he was really lucky on the d8s (though not to do 125 between a crit and a normal hit). Maybe he Power Attacked. Are you sure it was exactly 1d8+8 not counting smite?


Was it against an evil outsider, evil dragon, or undead? If so, using the values you gave, he'd do 3d8+84 on a crit. If just against a normal evil creature, 3d8+54 or a max of 78. So 75 is possible either way.


At 10th level, he almost has to have a magical weapon. Could have had an appropriate Bane on it. He could be Power Attacking (as stated above), he could have spell effects on him ...

Basically, you should ask him, since there are too many variables and too much guesswork involved on our side.


As Rogue said: 1d8+28 (first hit bonus for those types) crit'ing = 3d8+84, plus 1d8+18 for a regular hit = an average of 120 points. If he didn't crit the first hit (or it wasn't outsider/dragon/undead), the average would be 90 points.

Edit: ninja'd of course, but he also could have had his divine bond active (if he has the weapon bone version), for +2 (+8 with crit + hit) or +2d6 (avg. +14) for two Holy hits.


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Absolutely horrible under optimized build is how.

:)

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Say he does 5 on the d8 - that's 13 damage. Add smite for another 10 to 23. Triple it - 69 damage.
Was it an evil outsider/dragon/undead? Then that's 13 plus 20 = 33, tripled to 99.
That's without power attack, of course.

It's only a few times a day, and only against those foes, and it's, like, their best trick, and he's tenth level - which should be pretty awesome.

As long as the adventuring day isn't fifteen minutes, and there are plenty of mooks to keep everyone happy, it's all gravy :-)

EDIT: Multiple ninjas :-)


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Ya it's like this guy isn't even trying. At level 10 with a 3x crit weapon he should be doing at least 100 on a crit.


That's pretty standard, and not at all munchkin. Paladins are supposed to do that sort of damage to smite-specific targets. I've seen fighters do as much at lower levels, and they don't even get smite.


If I crit while spell striking with my dervish dancing magus, I do 2*(1d6+6)(weapon)+18d6 (shocking grasp). Which can get high. And I'm only level 9. Buffed (and lucky) I have one-shoted creatures of my own CR alone. So it's quite doable.

In his case, smite would give +10, power attack +6, weapon +8 (as already stated), which brings to 1d8+24 (minimum). Multiplied by 3, it easily gives 3d8+72 damage, the minimum value of which is 75.


Assuming a +6 strength, a +2 weapon, +6 power attack, and +10 smite his average damage (before crit) is 28.5. x3 crit = 85.5.

Add in a second attack and you get 114 average.

Tack onto that the spell Litany of Righteousness and now he does double damage (triple +double = quadruple). That would become: 114 for a critical and 57 for a regular hit.

Finally, against Evil Dragons/Outsiders or Undead he adds 10 points of damage further on a smite (30 on a crit) on the first hit.

In short, this is nothing atypical for a Paladin.

Note: is using the double weapon in 2-handed mode the Strength damage goes up by 3 (9 on a crit) and the Power Attack damage goes up by 3 (9 on a crit).


Yeah, everyone else has pretty much already covered this. People can do absurd amounts of damage even at lower levels. Though the fact remains that a simple smite/crit vs. the right opponent is going to do a minimum of 3d8+84 points of damage, which easily overcomes the 75+ marker, and that's not including any possible magical properties of the weapon.


Not enough information. Power attack? Enemy type? Magic weapon? Bane? Active spells?

Dark Archive

Doing 75 damage on crit, especially with smite activiated, is honestly not that high at all. It's laughably low, especially if they are using a times three or four weapon. For example, my barbarian is very close to dolling out 150 damage on a critical hit with an earth breaker, and that's assuming only average rolls. It's currently level 11. A paladin I frequently play with is capable of pulling semi-comparable numbers if it's able to smite an undead, dragon or evil outsider. Even just against an evil opponent they absolutely destroy the 75 damage marker. Its player did a decent job on the build.


Missing way too much information to be of any help. Base damage is 3d8+54 on a Smite-Crit (max 78), but that can easily be much higher at that level.

Lets assume his Axe is a base +1 magic weapon too start.

If His weapon is his divine bond, he could be making it a +3 weapon, or a +1 Holy Weapon.

+3 Weapon, Smite Crit. 3d8 + 21 (str, two handed x3) +9 (+3 magic x3) +30 (+10 smite, x3), max 84

+1 Holy Weapon, Smite Crit 3d8 + 21 (str, two handed x3) +3 (+1 magic x3) +30 (+10 smite, x3) + 2d6 (Holy) max 90

So yea, its possible. And yea, if its an evil outsider or dragon the numbers are a LOT higher.

Dark Archive

Is this a weapon with an enhancement bonus (I'm assuming +1 based on your assertion that his bonus is +8)? Is he using Power Attack? Including smiting damage and Power Attack damage, this is pretty easy to do with a crit. Honestly, with both Smite and Power Attack, between a single crit and a regular hit, 125 is not inconceivable.

NORMAL DAMAGE
Weapon Base: 1d8 = 4.5 on average
Strength Bonus: +7 (1.5 times +5 Str modifier)
Enhancement Bonus: +1
Power Attack: +9 for BAB +10
Smite: +10 (or +20 against evil outsiders, etc.)
-------------
31.5 (or 41.5)

Even assuming the lower value there, at 31.5, multiplying that times four gives you 126 expected damage as the total combined damage of a crit and a regular hit. So, it sounds like he was right on par.

EDIT: A thousand times ninja'd.
DOUBLE EDIT: My 1st level bloodrager recently crit three times during a Pathfinder Society scenario, dealing between 62 and 74 damage each time. I can understand you wanting to know how he was getting 75+ damage on a crit, but I hope you're not implying that it's extraordinarily high. Again, this was a 1st level bloodrager.


Well...

The paladin adds their level to damage rolls.

So, assuming he can smite his target he would then be dealing 1d8 (weapon) + 7 (1.5 strength, two-handed weapon) + 10 smite + power attack on a regular hit. So 1d8+7+10+9 = 1d8+26. Now a critical hit would multiply all that by three. So, that would be 3d8+78.

SO maybe he doesn't have power attack. 3d8+51. Average damage on 3d8 is 13.5. Which is 64. Max would be 75.

So its feasible. Without knowing exactly what he has thats all I can say.


If you feel this is higher impact than you'd like, my only suggestion is to tone down the point buy next time. Even that won't save you from things like the magus above.


Even with a 15 pt point buy you can easily get +6 strength by level 10. The main loss would be the ability to 2-weapon fight (due to lack of dexterity) but that isn't really a loss. 2-handed is generally considered better than 2-weapon.

Str 14 (+5)
Dex 12 (+2)
Con 14 (+5)
Int 10 (+0)
Wis 8 (-2)
Cha 14 (+5)
Total: 15

Starting Strength is 16 after racial bonus and then +2 for level and +4 for Belt of Giant Strength (reasonable equipment at level 10) for a total strength of 22.

That still comes out with the numbers I posted above where the average damage for a 1d8 weapon is 28.5 or 34.5 2-handed (+2 magic weapon with 22 strength, Power Attack, and Smite)


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The really big question is: Why are you asking us if you are the GM? If your player is doing something you have doubts about, ask him/her to explain how they do it. Not only would that be acceptable, but if I was a player in the group I'd expect you to ask. (By that I simply mean that as a player I would want my GM to ask how his players are doing the stuff they are doing if he had doubts, otherwise gamebalance is going out the window)

That said as others have stated, truth is that your player is actually underpowered if he is only critting for 75 damage on a x3 crit at lvl 10 paladin (assuming he is smiting a target).


Anyone ever seen a litany, smite, lance charge crit on a dragon?

At level 10, Str 20, Power Attack, +1 lance.

Spirited Charging with a lance + PA: 3d8+51
With smite: 3d8+111
Add litany: 4d8+148
Add crit: 6d8+222 (249 average)

So there you go, level 10 paladin dealing 249 damage on a crit at level 10, and one-shotting a CR 15 "Very Old Black Dragon".


Talk about tilting against windmills.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

I've got a 10th level PFS Druid that can crit on a single attack that can deal a maximum of 742 on a crit with one 4th level spell active. Doing 75 is almost 10% of that amount.


No magical weapon, smith=evil u dead, no Power Attack, no Bane. ,


Monkplayer, please supply the following:
Strength, feats, target creature type, and was he using the weapon 2weapon or 2handed?

Even without a magic weapon with a +6 strength and Divine Bond (+2) he could do the damage I laid out earlier. With Litany of Righteousness he could do that and more.

I am curious why he has no magic weapons at level 10.


James Risner wrote:
I've got a 10th level PFS Druid that can crit on a single attack that can deal a maximum of 742 on a crit with one 4th level spell active. Doing 75 is almost 10% of that amount.

Cave druid vital strike build?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

What exactly are your expectations of damage at this level?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Claxon wrote:
Cave druid vital strike build?

Yes


James Risner wrote:
I've got a 10th level PFS Druid that can crit on a single attack that can deal a maximum of 742 on a crit with one 4th level spell active. Doing 75 is almost 10% of that amount.

Why the cave druid?

I was thinking vital striking behemoth hippo with strongjaw.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Why the cave druid?

I was thinking vital striking behemoth hippo with strongjaw.

Behemoth hippo is huge (too many Druid levels) but Arsinotherium is the same damage and only Large. But the damage caps at 24d8 damage with Vital Strike. But 24d8 is only 384 + 38 (my base is +19) on a crit.


Cave druid because you get the ooze form with a 7d8 base attack


CWheezy wrote:
Cave druid because you get the ooze form with a 7d8 base attack

Holy 10'-by-10'-by-10' room for Jell-O. And I'd thought the behemoth hippo was the be-all, end-all for wild shaped single hit damage.


blahpers wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Cave druid because you get the ooze form with a 7d8 base attack
Holy 10'-by-10'-by-10' room for Jell-O. And I'd thought the behemoth hippo was the be-all, end-all for wild shaped single hit damage.

Feral Combat Training and dip Monk.

Flurry of explosions of damage.


My back of a napkin 10th level paladin, with modest magic items for level and moderate optimisation:

20 Strength
Power Attack
+2 Strength Belt
+2 Greataxe
Damage with Power Attack: 1d12+20 (26.5 average)
Damage with Power Attack and Smite: 1d12+30 (36.5 average)
Critical Damage with Power Attack and Smite: 3d12+90 (109.5 average)
First hit and Critical Damage with Power Attack and Smite, against undead: 3d12+120 (139.5 average)

As so many others have said, your PC is a bit underpowered.

Edit: Changed doubleaxe to greataxe


Scavion wrote:
blahpers wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Cave druid because you get the ooze form with a 7d8 base attack
Holy 10'-by-10'-by-10' room for Jell-O. And I'd thought the behemoth hippo was the be-all, end-all for wild shaped single hit damage.

Feral Combat Training and dip Monk.

Flurry of explosions of damage.

For single-hit, I'd rather just use the Vital Strike chain. (DR lol)

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

blahpers wrote:
For single-hit, I'd rather just use the Vital Strike chain. (DR lol)

Yea 11th level hits max of 1172.


James Risner wrote:
blahpers wrote:
For single-hit, I'd rather just use the Vital Strike chain. (DR lol)
Yea 11th level hits max of 1172.

What?!? Can I get a breakdown of that math?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Claxon wrote:
What?!? Can I get a breakdown of that math?

Improved Vital Strike

Critical (20x2)
Improved Natural Attack (Ranger 2nd level Natural Weapon Style)
Strong Jaw (some argue it doesn't stack with INA)


Are you critting the vital strike damage?

The Exchange

And how does an 11th level Druid have Improved Vital Strike (requires BAB +11)?

And how did you get a ranger combat style?

And yeah, the additional damage dice from Vital Strike or Improved Vital Strike (or Greater) don't multiply on a critical.

Edit: I do agree that INA and strong jaw stack, but enough people disagree that I wouldn't try it in PFS.


yeah, Core rules say precision damage specifically does not multiply (pg184). Vital Strike description specifically states that bonuses for VS do not multiply, but are added (pg136)in the same fashion as Sneak Attack.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Majuba wrote:
Are you critting the vital strike damage?
Belafon wrote:
have Improved Vital Strike (requires BAB +11)?

Boo, the bane of quick math and not looking things up is you make mistakes.

I've got this built at 10th, and misremembered IVS at BAB +9 instead of BAB +11. You have 6th Level Druid and the rest are Fighter and Ranger levels.

So 605 on a Crit calculated correctly at 10th or 11th level.

Silver Crusade

My level 5 paladin can do almost 50 on an average crit, and that's with a x2 weapon. Of course, she will crit a lot (A LOT!!!) more often than your buddy's half-orc. 75 on a crit with a x3 weapon at level 10 is middling damage, maybe even sub-par.


James Risner wrote:
Majuba wrote:
Are you critting the vital strike damage?
Belafon wrote:
have Improved Vital Strike (requires BAB +11)?

Boo, the bane of quick math and not looking things up is you make mistakes.

I've got this built at 10th, and misremembered IVS at BAB +9 instead of BAB +11. You have 6th Level Druid and the rest are Fighter and Ranger levels.

So 605 on a Crit calculated correctly at 10th or 11th level.

I'm so lost...

How are you gaining access to the level 10 wild shape powers without 10 levels of druid(cave druid)?


There is a ranger/druid feat which allows your ranger and druid levels to stack for determining wild shape and favoured enemy

The Exchange

James Risner wrote:
Majuba wrote:
Are you critting the vital strike damage?
Belafon wrote:
have Improved Vital Strike (requires BAB +11)?

Boo, the bane of quick math and not looking things up is you make mistakes.

I've got this built at 10th, and misremembered IVS at BAB +9 instead of BAB +11. You have 6th Level Druid and the rest are Fighter and Ranger levels.

So 605 on a Crit calculated correctly at 10th or 11th level.

Still trying to figure this out...

The formula for damage on a vital strike crit is:

(Damage Dice x crit multiplier) + Damage Dice[from Vital Strike] + (Static Damage x crit multiplier)

We know you're using a x2 crit weapon (a natural attack) so we can simplify this to:

(Base Damage x 3) + (Static Damage x2)

Working backwards:

Actual Math:
Base damage of +19 (not sure how this got so high...)
[edit]Nevermind, figured it out. Only 1 natural attack type means 1.5x strength bonus to damage.

605 - (19x2) = 567
*OK, we already have a problem. Unless you have somehow discovered dice with an odd number of sides, there's no way to have this be an odd number. Not sure what happened here.

I'll go ahead and divide by 3 to get
567/3 = 189

The damage dice is most likely a D8, so I'll divide by 8
189/8 = 23.625

That's pretty close to 24, so I'm guessing you are using 24D8 as your base.

Aha! I think I see what happened here! 24x8x3 = 576. You probably transposed that to 567 before adding the static damage.


So you are using a base damage of 24D8 (with INA and strong jaw). Does anyone know of an official damage table that goes above 12D8? (Or for that matter tells you what 7D8 goes to with a size bonus?)

I think how you arrived at that number is going to be your bigger problem with GMs than INA+strong jaw

The Exchange

CWheezy wrote:
There is a ranger/druid feat which allows your ranger and druid levels to stack for determining wild shape and favoured enemy

Actually, that feat (Shapeshifting Hunter) only determines how many times per day you can use wild shape. Shaping Focus on the other hand adds 4 to your druid level for determining all aspects of wild shape (up to a maximum of your character level).


Yeah, whoops! I forgot it was shaping focus


Something no one has mentioned: Early printings of the core rules indicated that Paladins got double damage against undead, evil clerics and the like. That has been changed to double damage on the first hit against these creatures, and regular smite damage on subsequent attacks. Just make sure double damage isn't being always applied.


They're free to use another smite, of course, if they decide to nova.

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