Gestalt Inquisitor / Bard

[Azelyan]

So I settled on what I want to play for a character in my Gestalt game. I want to play a bard/inquisitor. I have spent a long time thinking of how I will make this work, and I think I came up with a great story.

The character will be a Vetala-Born Dhampir who is a Dawnflower Dervish Bard/Kinslayer Inquisitor. I know what you are thinking a Dhampir worshipping Saranrae. My story would be that she has turned her back on the evil she has seen with her dhampir-kin and has vowed to stop them. So she turns to Saranrae, who may not accept her, but will spend her life trying to prove herself.

Stats:
Str: 8
Dex: 20 (18 + 2)
Con: 16
Int: 8 (10 - 2)
Wis: 14 (12 + 2)
Cha: 14

I have not decided on a build yet, I am thinking with these archtypes I am making the character more individual by taking the team aspects of the bard and inquisitor and making the character more self-sufficient. The double bonuses with battle dance and powering up the brands by giving up teamwork feats, I feel will make this character very tough.

So that is my concept, I still need to put together a build.

Would love to hear some thoughts on this.

[Atarlost]

Unless you're playing a solo or two person campaign Dawnflower Dervish is weak. Inspire Courage is the best thing you have going and Dawnflower Dervish makes it self-only. Doubling the magnitude isn't worth the loss of effect on your friends unless you're in a non-summoning caster-centric party.

You're going to have a swift action crunch. It's not insurmountable, but watch out for it. A bard/fighter or bard/paladin or bard/ranger would arcane strike more offsetting some of your gain from bane and judgement.

You don't have enough strength. Look at the encumbrance tables and item weights and consider what you need to be carrying. It's just not going to work until you get mithril armor and weapons.

[Azelyan]

yea I realize that my first turn is essentially used for judgment, bardic performance, and probably heroism aura from domain after level 8.

The encumbrance thing is something I had not considered, also something I will have to re-evaluate.

Do you have a counterproposal?

Edit: We are 3 people. A Soracle, and a Fighter/Barbarian.

[ChainsawSam]

As far as a Dhampir worshipping Saranrae, reformed evil-doers are part of her shtick and a large enough portion of her followers to bear special mention. So even if it is a bit weird, it is at least appropriate.

I've been working on a DEX based Inquisitor (though no bard) and I would recommend a STR of at least 10 just to carry things.

I'd really recommend a STR of 13 for Power Attack. You can't use Piranha Strike with a Scimitar and between Judgments and buff spels you are capable of you're going to end up with a ludicrous hit bonus. Add in buffs from teammates and you're really going to want a way to turn excess hit into damage.

Frankly, I think the bonuses you get from Judgments/Spells and self-only Bardic Performance is overkill. I think it would probably be better to find a Bard Archetype you like which would let you share the Performance bonuses with your pals or even find a different class to Gestalt with. My personal vote would be to strike Bard entirely and find something else, but I don't like Bards in the first place so that is probably biased.

Of course if you do that you wont get the Dervish Dance feat at level 1, which would make for a painful couple of levels.

[Azelyan]

Also Haramaki/Scimitar/Buckler are what I would need to focus on for holding onto. 8 Str means I can hold 26 pounds worth of items easily.

I would need to have the fighter hold my backpack! :P

Yes another armor would be nice early on, but in order to be able to beat encumbrance it might have to be done. Even if I adjust some things to get a 10 str, its still only going to be 5 pounds difference.

[Azelyan]

So based on so many different things being required for me, I did some modifications! Switch out Kinslayer, for Preacher. This allows me not to use melee touch actions with brands. It was a cool concept and all, but dumping strength was not going to help me with that.

Second of all I have looked at 3 different stat blocks. Tell me which I would be better off with. Remember my base stats are 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8.

Statblock 1:
Str: 10
Dex: 20 (18 + 2)
Con: 16
Int: 6 (8 - 2)
Wis: 14 (12 + 2)
Cha: 14

This one Raises Strength but suffers more Int, and likewise skills. Helps encumbrance.

Statblock 2:
Str: 14
Dex: 20 (18 + 2)
Con: 16
Int: 6 (8 - 2)
Wis: 12 (10 + 2)
Cha: 12

This one settles for less spellcasting, in turn for getting Strength for encumbrance and power attack. I don't know if the spells this character would be casting would be as important in the saves department.

Statblock 3:
Str: 10
Dex: 20 (18 + 2)
Con: 16
Int: 12 (14 - 2)
Wis: 12 (10 + 2)
Cha: 12

This means I have no negatives, all mental stats get a +1, I don't know if this is the right option necessarily.

[Atarlost]

With three melee capables I'd do a more conventional bard.

Since you're planning to dervish dance (and I'm pretty sure you get the proficiency from inquisitor) you should probably go Arcane Duelist for free arcane strike and miscellaneous other feats. You'll start the game finessing a rapier and then switch to a scimitar at level 3.

If you switch to something strength based I'd suggest Chelish Diva for better armor and use a quickdraw shield. Getting that running takes a bunch of feats, but the AC is better in the long run. Better armor also means you can probably go to 14 con. On statblock 1 that'll buy you 13 strength, 8 int, and 15 wis. On statblock 3 it'll buy you 13 strength and 15 wis. On statblock 2 it would go into either offsetting the int penalty or into cha and wis in some combination.

I find the starting 20 too expensive and prefer an 18 in my primary stat, at least for non-casters and hybrids. That frees up the buy points for a more rounded character. You are pretty much the most MAD combo possible. Even going for 19 saves 4 buy points which will get you 13 str and +1 wis on statblocks 1 or 3.

If you can handle the code Paladin/Bard is far easier. Similar swift action crunch, but the bigger hit dice and lay on hands and divine grace reduce the priority on con a bit and wisdom becomes a true dump stat if you think you can get past level 1 and can find a +cha dhampir variant.

Ditching Bard for Evangelist Cleric is the other good way to condense stats. If you can fit quicken into your build you don't actually need to have enough wisdom to cast your highest spells on a battle cleric, though it makes the swift action crunch even worse. Charisma loses priority but doesn't become a true dump stat because it effects sermon rounds. You do lose casting versatility, though.

[Azelyan]

What you say makes a lot of sense. That being said, I really like the combo of Bard and Inquisitor.

[Kolokotroni]

There is a significant lack of synergy between the bard and inquisitor in a gestalt game. Same hd, same bab, different casting stats, 2 kinds of 6 level spell casting.

May I ask, what exactly is it about the bard and inquisitor that you like? I presume you want to be a combatant, is it just the idea of using bardic performance along side judgement and bane? Or is there something more to it. I understand where you are interested conceptually, but any 'holy warrior' type could fit in place of inquisitor in terms of theme, so I am just wondering if there is something in the inquisitor mechancially that is important to you.

Also, what material are you allowed to use?

[Azelyan]

All paizo pathfinder material we can use. Ive never played a bard or inquisitor before and they were two things I was interested in playing.

[Kolokotroni]

My concern is essentially by combining the inquisitor and bard, you wont get as much out of it as either the fighter/barbarian or the sorceror oracle. All of your abilities require activation, and there are ALOT of them, you wont be able to benefit from as much of it as you would if some of it was passive), you also gain the same amount of skill points, the same bab and the same hd from both classes, so there isnt any gain there in terms of gestalt.

If you really want to go bard, inquisitor you can, but I think there are probably more managable routes to go with your character.

[Azelyan]

well my think was we have a front row melee user, and a full on spell caster.

Strength/Charisma stats are in primary use. Trying to find a niche for me. I figured Inquisitor/bard would give me a little bit of both.

I think ultimately if I had to choose I would not want to overstep either of them. But I am struggling to find something for me to play.

Before I had planned on a druid, but when I learned we were going Gestalt, and not mythic I changed my mind. Mainly because I do not know how to make a flavorful gestalt Druid. That and Dhampir's are cool, and this would be my first opportunity to make one with a fitting story.

If I had to choose I would go more the wisdom route, so if bard isn't going to work, I could take another class.

Inquisitor and any of the following would work i think: Pistelero gunslinger, Zen Archer Monk, Ranger.

[Renegadeshepherd]

Azelyan wrote:

What you say makes a lot of sense. That being said, I really like the combo of Bard and Inquisitor.

Bards and inquisitors have no synergy between unless ur dipping into the other, but true multiclassinv these two is bad. Inquisitor doesn't like to multi anyway although that is t impossible or impractical given some situations. The inquisitor is the heavier hitter between the two and bard is better skill monkey/supporter so I would judge things based on that.

Now if ur dead set on multiclassinv between the two I would recommend a half elf OR half orc , more on that later,archeologist 4/ inquisitor X as that is enough to get u the best the archeologist has to offer with a rogue talent, uncanny dodge, archeologists luck, and most important bardic knowledge at +2. After that the inquisitor can take over as he needs every level he can get to maximize his abilities. Monster lore and bardic knowledge make great combo FYI. I recommend going ranged over Melee unless u have a compelling reason not to as ur main damage output of bane, arcane strike, and archeologists luck don't care what weapon u use BUT u will lose some bard spells if u wear medium armor. So go light and ranged I vote.

As for race, half orc and half elf have good class features for bard and decent for inquisitor. Favored class for bard is a MUST. Adding weapons is great. Added saves is good. Counting as human so u can get fast learner feat is respectable choice. I can't even advocate getting a human in this case since the half orc can get skilled trait. I lean towards half orc over half elf but both are awesome for this.

Hope that helped somehow.

[Azelyan]

What if I switched out Bard for Zen Archer? That would be a decent gestalt right? Zen Archer/Inquisitor gets wis to hit and spellcasting. Don't know what the heck I will do with the story of the character though.

[nate lange]

ranger/inquisitor is pretty solid IMO... you're still overlapping quite a bit on skills but you get full BAB, d10 hp, all good saves, a bunch of stacking skill bonuses (and 1-2 that don't stack), a better mix of active and passive abilities, extra spells, and the same important stats. the story here is easier too- you're a hunter, of the most bad-ass kind (a kinslayer with undead as a favored enemy will be very good and finding and eliminating undead).

the dhampir doesn't have great stats for this though. the nosferatu-born probably have the best but the Con penalty hurts... vetala-born might be the best bet? truthfully, you could make a non-kinslayer rng/inq and be pretty much just as effective (instead of the kind of self-loathing angle have his hatred of undead rooted in the death of a loved one), or you could make a human with racial heritage and pick up kinslayer that way.

[Azelyan]

I think for the purpose of going more Wis base, and I really do not want to have to deal with an animal companion. I think I will try Zen Archer/Inquisitor.

Judgements are really going to beef up my flurrying.

[nate lange]

i probably wouldn't want to deal with an animal companion either... personally i'd use the spirit ranger archetype to replace it with extra spells instead of choosing another 3/4 class. but rule #1 is always "have fun" so if you think you'll have more fun as ZA/inq, go for it! you're giving up your +damage judgment for one that functions as a touch attack, so try to get the ranged version of that right away.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The Zen Archer/Inquisitor is a much better choice. Your stats before adjustment should be STR 16, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 18, CHA 8. WIS does all your heavy lifting, but you still need STR for damage. You need a minimum of 13 DEX to take deadly aim. You could swap CON and DEX and put you level 4 bonus into DEX If you really want the HP. Keep in mind that you do not get WIS to hit with the bow until 3rd level.

Around 5th level you will start to come into your own. The one thing to watch out for is your swift actions both classes have bonuses that require a swift action to use. Luckily most of the inquisitor’s class abilities only need the swift action to start them. Your Ki abilities also require a swift action to use so you will not be able to active bane or judgments and still be able to flurry

[Azelyan]

im switching kinslayer out for preacher too.

Stats:
Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 20 (18 + 2)
Cha: 8

I gave up on dhampir. I decided to go with Half elf instead, for a holy archer of sorts. Inquisitor of Erastil.

[Renegadeshepherd]

Azelyan wrote:

I think for the purpose of going more Wis base, and I really do not want to have to deal with an animal companion. I think I will try Zen Archer/Inquisitor.

Judgements are really going to beef up my flurrying.

I do not know if I could advocate this either. I'm NOT trying to be a jerk but think about this for a moment...

1) zen archer for all practical purposes replaces or gives all but one archery feat AS LoNG AS you flurry. So for you to get the most out of zen u have to stay with zen. All but deadly aim is already given to you. If you take inquisitor hour judgements are only going to at best get you back to what you could have been.

2) some class features like number of perfect strikes will be almost meaningless at mid to upper levels since u won't be able to use them enough times. I think at level five u get one full flurry with perfect strike and then ur done.

3) the wisdom increase from zen isn't that big of deal...

My Inquisitor is often a DX 18 and wis 16 on his own with a 20 buy system and I've done very well with it. St and con were 12 FYI. So ur going to a lot of effort for what would be NO net gain compared to a dedicated archer build for ur attack stat and +1 to whatever wisdom applies to.

4) ur AC is actually lower than even a light archer with suggested stats, as the monk suffers from most often. Granted u gain in touch and such but a pure inquisitor can make for some of that with his judgements I THINk. Protection is for all AC isn't it? I digress.

5) inquisitors need to dump their CHA in almost all cases. They have almost an a sure number of ways to make up for this.

6) when comparing the classes I can't see what is gained except class features. Same hp, same BAB, saves almost same (especially when high dex added), both have he's y swift actions, both are semi casters, both have same weapons. I just don't see it :(

Conclusion: it's better than the bard for battle but u can do better from a min max position.

If u want wisdom based characters who specialize in archery there alternatives if u seek them. If u want it for role play than go for it with my blessing.

[Renegadeshepherd]

too tired to edit above or post in whole but look at guided hand feat with being a cleric of Erastil (bow is ur weapon). A human as 1 gets what I think ur searching for in zen/inquisitor. Night.