Valet Valid?

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

The Additional Resources page says of the Animal Archive that all Archetypes on pages 20-21 are legal, which would include the Valet archetype for Familiars. HOWEVER, a prominent feature of the Valet is that it is treated as having the Cooperative Crafting feat - which the Additional Resources page says under the Advanced Player's Guide entry is illegal. What gives? Can the Valet use it to provide a bonus to its master's Day Job rolls? Does it need a rank in the appropriate Craft skill to do so?

Also: The Familiar Archetypes detailed here all mention giving the Familiar additional class skills - given that Familiars normally never gain Hit Dice, skills, or feats of their own, how does one put these skills to use (unless the master is a Half-Orc Witch or someone else who can lend their Familiar skill points)?

3rd: If I have the Animal Archive, do I still need the original source to play with certain exotic Familiars introduced elsewhere but listed in that book (i.e., do I still need to own Adventure Path #55: The Wormwood Mutiny in order to have a Giant Isopod Familiar)?

[samerandomhero]

for answer 2: your familiar can use the skill ranks its master has if they wish to do so. So your familiar has access to its own skill set and its masters.
For the class skill part, these become class skills so the familiar gets the additional 3 to add to any check it has to make per normal class skill bonus.
For example:
Familiar has 3 ranks in fly. fly is class skill. so it now gets 6 plus dex for fly check.
Master has 7 ranks in disable device. Provided familiar is capable of making such checks it would get 7 plus dex. With the pilferer archetype giving it disable device as a class skill, that would now be 10 plus dex.

for question 3: I am pretty sure that having that book is fine, however you would need access to stats for it.

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

Thanks. Can anyone answer question #1?

[Sniggevert]

If the underlying bonus feat is illegal in the campaign, you just don't get it. In some instances, a substitution is called for (see Wizard and Scribe Scroll). If no substitution is called out, then you just don't get the ability and gain nothing instead.

[Felix Gaunt]

I think taking away Cooperative Casting from a Valet familiar is silly since all the crafting feats are gone anyway, having it there and it give a bonus to skills seems perfectly reasonable to me. Sometimes stuff like this may slip through the cracks in PFS (whish has a lot of unique rulings), so maybe they'll be kind enough to review and allow it.

[Tumskunde]

Well, for #1 I think it would work as written.
You'll share both craft skills and feats and the valet familiar would grant a bonus to the day job rolls, as you get a bonus to mundane crafting as well. A +2 circumstance bonus if I'm not mistaken. As you cannot posses Item creation feats, then I think that's the gist of it.

For #2-3 I think samerandomhero nailed it. Though I always wondered if a familiar got skill ranks as it's intelligence increases.

I had a player run a Carnivalist with a Valet familiar, the teammate feature was the defining element of that pair.

[Brian Lefebvre]

The bonus would apply to any craft checks the character made during the course of a scenario. However since the craft bonus is not a permanent bonus it does not apply to day job rolls. Just like summoners don't get a bonus to their day jobs based on the skills of their eidolon.

[Tumskunde]

The familiar is a more permanent aspect than a summoner's eidolon.
In addition, unlike the eidolon, the familiar would be providing the benefit through the feat, not it's skills. This same feat which replaces what most would consider the more advantageous Alertness feat.

Personally though, I would want to allow it due to the amusement and inspiration the imagery of just how the familiar would be helping in the various craft skills brings me.
A wizards workshop indeed.

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

Is there a developer out there who can weigh in on this?

[Jokon Yew]

I've got a related question to valet viability: wouldn't most familiars provoke attacks of opportunity doing flyby aid anothers due to being tiny or smaller?

[Tumskunde]

Yes, the familar would provoke Attacks of Opportunity if Tiny or smaller from the movement portion of the 'flyby' aid another action.
That is, unless the familar's master AND someone with the Escape Route feat is adjacent to the enemy being aided against.
This is do to the Teammate ability of the Valet Familiar letting the familiar have the teamwork feats of it's master, and Escape route allows allies to move through your square and any adjacent (Not within reach mind you) to it without provoking attacks of opportunity.
As written, a tiny or smaller familiar would have to enter the opponent's square, which it can do as it's tiny or smaller.

I've had a player with a bard use his snake familiar to do this, as well as avoid AoO from movement as the snake rode on his shoulders.

[Snuff Wheeler]

Kevin Ingle wrote:

If the underlying bonus feat is illegal in the campaign, you just don't get it. In some instances, a substitution is called for (see Wizard and Scribe Scroll). If no substitution is called out, then you just don't get the ability and gain nothing instead.

Tell me if my logic is correct. If the archetype is not banned but the free feat is (e.g. the familiar doesn't get Able assistant, then it also doesn't lose the alertness feat. That would seem fair, but would necessitate a higher ruling.

As was pointed out by Brian, the other half of Able assistant would also be marginalized for PFSociety play.

[Sniggevert]

Snuff Wheeler wrote:

Kevin Ingle wrote:

If the underlying bonus feat is illegal in the campaign, you just don't get it. In some instances, a substitution is called for (see Wizard and Scribe Scroll). If no substitution is called out, then you just don't get the ability and gain nothing instead.

Tell me if my logic is correct. If the archetype is not banned but the free feat is (e.g. the familiar doesn't get Able assistant, then it also doesn't lose the alertness feat. That would seem fair, but would necessitate a higher ruling.

As was pointed out by Brian, the other half of Able assistant would also be marginalized for PFSociety play.

No. The archetype swaps out it by base rules. PFS has a house rule that the bonus feat is illegal, so you just don't get it. You still have to follow all of the base rules of the build though unfortunately. For some of these corner cases, it does make a noticeable difference I'm afraid.

[Snuff Wheeler]

Kevin Ingle wrote:

No. The archetype swaps out it by base rules. PFS has a house rule that the bonus feat is illegal, so you just don't get it. You still have to follow all of the base rules of the build though unfortunately. For some of these corner cases, it does make a noticeable difference I'm afraid.

I have seen other cases where craft-related feats have been substituted in PFS with something like skill focus. Might this be a good environment to suggest/request such a substitution be made?

If so, then here are two examples pulled from the Additional resources doc, either of which might serve as reasonable substitutions to the Valet archetype
A) The Forgemaster's 5th level master smith ability is replaced with Skill Focus (Craft)

B) A soul forger magus can add his magus level to Craft checks as part of a Day Job check, but may not craft magic or mundane items for use in scenarios or for resale.

If the editors were leaning more towards B, maybe it could read "With the assistance of the the Shaman's spirit guide, he may apply his familiar's level..."

[R2D2TS]

Mike Brock stating they keep alertness

[Snuff Wheeler]

R2D2TS wrote:

Mike Brock stating they keep alertness

Thanks R2D2TS.

I did think that that solution made the most sense from the get go.