Okay, so I have two villains in my campaign, and I recently was reading the new write-ups and advice in Ultimate Campaign and one of the characters it's a no brainer that she's Lawful Evil.
Lawful Evil
One day, I will rule. A strong leader is admired, a weak leader overthrown. I have principles and I am right. Chaos brings death. In this world there is only order or oblivion. Rank must be respected and feared. The weak will follow sure leaders. Sin is satisfaction. Everyone has vices.
Core Concepts: Calculation, discipline, malevolence, might, punishment, rationality, subjugation, terror
A lawful evil character goes about her business motivated by her own interests, but knows that ultimately order protects her. She seeks to achieve her own ends—but through order, not chaos. Even when boiling with anger, she is more likely to carefully plot vengeance than risk her own death through hasty actions. Sometimes that revenge will take years to happen, and that is acceptable.
A lawful evil character at the extreme end of the spectrum is zealous in her aims and will make any sacrifice to achieve them. Her twisted philosophy can make her paranoid of her closest followers, even family and friends. She stops at nothing to gain control, for only through control can she have peace. Yet even the most powerful and ordered society has its enemies, and to a lawful evil character only the destruction of those enemies can bring fulfillment.
Order is everything, at any cost.
However, the question is her daughter. Now, her daughter cares about one thing. Her mother. She is her assassin, her enforcer, she is completely devoted. Now, her mother is going to send her out to do some very very evil things... she doesn't want to rule, doesn't care about good or evil, just helping her mother pursue her aims... So UC says this about Lawful Neutral...
Lawful Neutral
Order begets order. My word is my bond. Chaos will destroy the world. Respect rank. I live by my code and I'll die by my code. Tradition must continue. Order is the foundation of all culture. I am my own judge.
Core Concepts: Harmony, loyalty, order, organization, rank, rule, system, tradition, word
A lawful neutral character admires order and tradition, or seeks to live by a code. He might fear chaos and disorder, and perhaps have good reason to do so from past experience. A lawful neutral person is not as concerned about who rules him so much as how secure he and his compatriots are, and finds great solace in the normality of society. Such a character may admire the strongest of leaders and punishments if they keep order, and he may support wars against other nations even if his own country is a brutal invader—his only concern is the rightness of the military action.
A lawful neutral character who follows his own code never breaks it willingly, and may become a martyr to defend it.
By that it really sounds more like it for her, although is that enough to keep her from being evil herself, a "just following orders" mentality?
Or am I just reading too much into the "quote" and they are both Lawful Evil, but the daughter accepts the mother's rightful place as part of her own code of behavior?
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Do you have a Paladin in your campaign? Anyone else that relies particularly on someone/something being evil or not evil?
If no, then just don't bother with an alignment. Just create the concept of the character and don't worry about whether or not the character is evil.
Do you have a Paladin in your campaign? Anyone else that relies particularly on someone/something being evil or not evil?
If no, then just don't bother with an alignment. Just create the concept of the character and don't worry about whether or not the character is evil.
Paladins aren't the only alignment dependant class. For example, if the NPC wanted to become an assassin her alignment would matter. Her mother is a heretic inquisitor of Jezelda (heretic because she's lawful evil worshipping a chaotic evil goddess) So their alignments DO matter, unless I want to say NPCs don't have to follow the same rules as players, which is not something I tend to do unless it's in the player's benefit, if even then.
The daughter is evil because she is her mother's assassin and from what you've said she will willingly commit evil acts for her. Now it comes down to whether she is lawful or nuetral. I would say lawful because she follows a code that her mother deserves to rule and she does what is necessary to ensure that rule.
My point is more than alignment is most often an hiderance and annoyance, and you will find that many here advocate the removal of alignment from the game.
If your players are characters that do not mechanically depend on an enemy being evil (or not being evil) then does it matter what their alignment is? If no one is a paladin or casts an alignment based spell against the duo then their alignment might never come up (mechanically). Alignment only matters as much as you let it matter as a GM.
The daughter is evil because she is her mother's assassin and from what you've said she will willingly commit evil acts for her. Now it comes down to whether she is lawful or nuetral. I would say lawful because she follows a code that her mother deserves to rule and she does what is necessary to ensure that rule.
Okay, yeah so don't read too much into the quote at the beginning of the Lawful Evil section on her.
Also, as for what I said about Jezelda I'm actually reconsidering them actually worshiping her simply cause while they share her beliefs about the superiority of werewolves, they aren't chaotic about it.
My point is more than alignment is most often an hiderance and annoyance, and you will find that many here advocate the removal of alignment from the game.
If your players are characters that do not mechanically depend on an enemy being evil (or not being evil) then does it matter what their alignment is? If no one is a paladin or casts an alignment based spell against the duo then their alignment might never come up (mechanically). Alignment only matters as much as you let it matter as a GM.
That may be true, but I'm not an advocate of it's removal and as for just ignoring their alignment completely, if that's the case I could have them be good upstanding citizens (by actions) and yet worship Jezelda and get all the benefits of being a chaotic evil worshiper of Jezelda (so they have to sacrifice someone once a month, who cares they don't' have an alignment to care about) since their alignment doesn't matter. Granted, I know that's an extreme example, but if I decided that NPC alignment doesn't matter, what really would stop me from doing such an extreme thing?
That may be true, but I'm not an advocate of it's removal and as for just ignoring their alignment completely, if that's the case I could have them be good upstanding citizens (by actions) and yet worship Jezelda and get all the benefits of being a chaotic evil worshiper of Jezelda (so they have to sacrifice someone once a month, who cares they don't' have an alignment to care about) since their alignment doesn't matter. Granted, I know that's an extreme example, but if I decided that NPC alignment doesn't matter, what really would stop me from doing such an extreme thing?My point is more than alignment is most often an hiderance and annoyance, and you will find that many here advocate the removal of alignment from the game.
If your players are characters that do not mechanically depend on an enemy being evil (or not being evil) then does it matter what their alignment is? If no one is a paladin or casts an alignment based spell against the duo then their alignment might never come up (mechanically). Alignment only matters as much as you let it matter as a GM.
I don't see a problem? If they don't have an alignment just think of it this way:
The mother and daughter hide their true nature from others. In the light of day to the world they are wealthy aristocratic individuals who volunteer their time to help feed the homeless. However, unbeknown to the rest of the city the pair are dread assassins working to kill the current line for the throne so that they can obtain rulership over the kindgom and be sovereign leaders.
Now, does it matter if they're good or evil if no one ever uses anythign alignment based against them? Even if you gave them an alignment it doesn't make my description invalid. Someone can be evil and do good things. Someone can be chaotic evil and do good things, especially if their actions are only to "throw others off their scent". Having an enemy be so unrepentantly evil doesn't make for characters with much depth. Don't worry about saddling the character with an alingment, instead think about what you want the character to have done (before the PCs arrive) and to be doing while they're their.
Label them what you will, either character sounds as if they could play either alignment. Forget about the extreme examples, a character can also be just inside one alignment. LN/LE share a long border, and characters can easily shift between the two situationally, but have a preference for solutions of one type over the other. An LE character could be very much about the L, and just E enough that they have little compunction taking an E action if it makes their road easier.
So yes you may for religious purposes or other alignment based reasons want to clearly place both of them in the proper alignment. However don't be bound by the extreme. A character can appear to be pretty much in the middle of the map, with only the fact that their fall back/bottom line decision process will default out to their true alignment, but if they have time to think about the implications they might go a totally different way.
Personally I'd probably go both LE, or the Mother LN with E tendencies and the Daughte LE. LE fits an assasin much better than LN does, unless the Mother is on a crusade against chaos, and the assassinations help to promote that. LE pretty much allows you to easily take on any assignment, LN you'd have to come up with a good reason why.
What does the daughter do when she's not on duty doing dirty deeds for her mother? Her moral philosophy suggests LN, but how do her actions and pastimes, taken all together, weigh out?
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For example, if the NPC wanted to become an assassin her alignment would matter.
This is a backward way of thinking about things. The NPC is already an assassin, therefore the NPC should not be barred from taking levels in the assassin class. The CRB says only evil characters can be assassins not because assassin powers are granted by the evil god of assassins but just because D&D believes all assassins are evil (except when it doesn't - see ninja), so if that rule would get in the way, just ignore it.
Alignments are stupid, don't worry too much about them, and don't even think about letting them keep your assassin from being an assassin.
What does the daughter do when she's not on duty doing dirty deeds for her mother? Her moral philosophy suggests LN, but how do her actions and pastimes, taken all together, weigh out?
Well, if I don't take the quote literally, then yes Lawful Evil is pretty much perfect for the daughter. She really is kind of a sadist. In fact, the only law she really cares about is her mother's word to the point that oh murder is illegal? If I kill you will my mom help me get away with it? Then, cool I can kill you.
In a way, she very well could be chaotic evil, however she does have the ethical sense of she follows her mother's orders. Basically, her mother is all that really keeps her in check (except on nights of the full moon, as she's an afflicted werewolf not natural (which is very strange, why is she only a witchwolf instead of a full werewolf like her mother?)
As for the mother, her concept very much is the corrupt "hanging" judge character. So, Lawful Evil Inquisitor with the Justice Inquisition.
For example, if the NPC wanted to become an assassin her alignment would matter.This is a backward way of thinking about things. The NPC is already an assassin, therefore the NPC should not be barred from taking levels in the assassin class. The CRB says only evil characters can be assassins not because assassin powers are granted by the evil god of assassins but just because D&D believes all assassins are evil (except when it doesn't - see ninja), so if that rule would get in the way, just ignore it.
Alignments are stupid, don't worry too much about them, and don't even think about letting them keep your assassin from being an assassin.
That's all fine, except that I have already said I am not an advocate of ignoring alignments and the rules based around them as a whole (whether I agree with the "assassin class must be evil" thing or not, I am asking based on the RAW not any house rules I may decide to invoke afterward), and this thread is for helping determine the best alignment, not to debate whether alignments should be completely ignored (for NPCs, PCs, in this case it doesn't matter as by the RAW alignments should apply to everyone.)
Not meaning to be rude, but really... please don't try to derail my thread into a discussion on whether alignments should be removed from the game, there are many other threads to discuss that.
I guess my question would be:
What would the daughter do if the mother were not in the picture? It sounds like "act like a lawful neutral character" is not the answer.
I think the 'evil' part for the daughter is not hard, given what you're said about her.
I'm not sure if 'Lawful' is appropriate though. She's devoted to her mother, and that's great and all. But it's pretty light as far as codes or traditions go. To me, she sounds like a neutral or chaotic evil character who just loves her mother.
My gut tells me (based on what you've described) that without her mother around telling her what to do, she'd act in a neutral evil or chaotic evil fashion. Thus, to me, she's one of those alignments, but she listens to her mother for emotional reasons unrelated to law/chaos.
I agree with Cheburn. With the mother out of picture, it seems like she wouldnt be the type to follow rules around, it seems that she would have a more neutral, or even chaotic alignment.
She seems to only act on a lawful way because her mother wants her to, so I would say she's probably neutral evil.
By that it really sounds more like it for her, although is that enough to keep her from being evil herself, a "just following orders" mentality?
Or am I just reading too much into the "quote" and they are both Lawful Evil, but the daughter accepts the mother's rightful place as part of her own code of behavior?
You said yourself the mother is evil.
If the daughter is LN and following orders, even a LN following evil over time will object, and either stop doing her bidding or she will turn LE herself.
I think you're still evil if you're doing evil things just because you were ordered to do them. People are not machines.
Honestly, I'd just dump alignment altogether, stop worrying about it, and start creating some interesting PC and NPCs.
Not a straitjacket!
What would the daughter do if the mother were not in the picture?Yes, this is a key questions for which there is not enough information. Given the information at hand I would say the daughter is true neutral with a serious psychological fixation on her mother.
Yeah, she is from a long line of werewolves however for some unknown reason she's only a witchwolf, not a full werewolf (as skinchangers can become afflicted, she has been though.) It's strange because she is the direct daughter of a natural werewolf, she SHOULD be a full natural werewolf but she isn't... so she has a sort of inferiority complex and feels she has to be that much more devoted to her mother to prove herself. Further compounding it is one of the characters (niece/cousin respectively) is a natural werewolf that is actually good and the mother is trying to get her to "return to the family" and embrace evil. The daughter is jealous that her mother is so fixated on her "good" cousin and not her.
As for that question about if her mother was out of the picture, hmm really she'd probably be chaotic evil. She really has no morals of her own and is pretty much a sadist even. So, actually that might be appropriate actually, make her neutral evil and it's only her mother influence that keeps her "in check" by giving her some semblance of morality to follow.
So thanks everyone and for the last time, yes I know alignment is not a straightjacket and I am not going to throw the whole system out, not even for NPCs. You can do that in your games, I don't mind.