Hello again all, this is a question I've often run into with my group since I've started running a kind of 'x-men' imagined campaign where for the first long while there won't be class levels (since they are all just average joes, so commoner) but they gained their powers (in the form of a single template) and are dealing with that.
Now I know this might be a weird type of game since they don't even start with a class (they'll get one based on how their characters handle things and such), but I want to accurately describe their abilities in physical terms to help immerse them into the game, so what DOES having high scores really mean in a somewhat real life idea? or perhaps in comic book or show examples?
I know for example that the average score for a human is 10 down the board, but like what do you think having a 20 in something means? or even a 30? so for anyone that would like to give their opinions to help derive how to run such potential scores (as one of our guys has a 34 strength score for example) what does a score of 16-20 (often considered 'normal' for your scores even though 10 is average human), 20-25 (the super high stat), and 25 to 30 and up (the monstrous numbers), mean to you? and I'll give my original thoughts since to do otherwise wouldn't be fair lol
16-20: Olympic athlete(physical), chess grand master(int), Monk on the mountain(wis)
20-25: near super human that can lift hundreds of pounds/run for miles, the next great genius of the generation, A philosopher who pierces all secrets
25-30+: Comic book super hero that can toss cars/ an alien beyond human understanding, a master of the very concepts of reality more then we can believe.
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People like to talk about Olympic Athletes or whatever, but the truth is, the difference between, say, 18 Intelligence and 8 Intelligence is +25% chance to know stuff. Attributes mean remarkably little to the realm of "normal human behavior." Where attributes really matter are with class abilities (DC calculations, bonus spells, etc.).
People like to talk about Olympic Athletes or whatever, but the truth is, the difference between, say, 18 Intelligence and 8 Intelligence is +25% chance to know stuff. Attributes mean remarkably little to the realm of "normal human behavior." Where attributes really matter are with class abilities (DC calculations, bonus spells, etc.).
I know the 'game logic' uses of it aren't much different but then why make it such a BIG DEAL when you gain just a single point? I'm just speculating on what the differences in performance DESCRIPTION might be for other people, after all you wouldn't in a realistic setting say the old man (Wizard 8 str) has only a 25% less chance to lift something then the Burly weight lifter (martial with 18 str). Game logic has to be balanced and all but thats not what I'm wondering about thoughts on lol
I know the 'game logic' uses of it aren't much different but then why make it such a BIG DEAL when you gain just a single point? I'm just speculating on what the differences in performance DESCRIPTION might be for other people, after all you wouldn't in a realistic setting say the old man (Wizard 8 str) has only a 25% less chance to lift something then the Burly weight lifter (martial with 18 str). Game logic has to be balanced and all but thats not what I'm wondering about thoughts on lol
Well that's actually my point. A Wizard with 8 Strength actually can beat a professional weight lifter with 18 Strength in an arm wrestling contest more than a quarter of the time.
The stats are presented as a big deal because way back:
1) Things weren't really rolled much and your stat being "eyeballed" meant a whole lot more, so 18 Strength vs. 8 Strength was likely to be an auto-win, rather than having anyone roll anything. In other words, early in D&D history, your attributes defined you more, while now, pure chance/the die roll defines you more, since your attributes just provide a small bonus to those rolls
2) There was no point buy, only rolling, so high stats only happened with crazy good rolls (an 18 only happens 1 in 216 times, for example) meaning that they were legitimately more rare
Basically, I'm answering your question by saying, don't base description on attributes.
People like to talk about Olympic Athletes or whatever, but the truth is, the difference between, say, 18 Intelligence and 8 Intelligence is +25% chance to know stuff. Attributes mean remarkably little to the realm of "normal human behavior." Where attributes really matter are with class abilities (DC calculations, bonus spells, etc.).
This.
Plus, the skill system determines more of that than the attributes do. Someone with a 10 STR and a +5 bonus in Athletics jumps as far (on average) as someone with a straight 20 STR.Thirdly, with the possible exception of Strength, every ability score is an amalgamation of multiple characteristics, many of which are abstract and unmeasurable. As such, it's impossible to say what one is capable of based solely on the attribute. A character could, for example, have an average wisdom by virtue of having low intuition but high perceptive abilities. An average Dexterity could be low reflexes but good coordination. And so on and so forth.
I know the 'game logic' uses of it aren't much different but then why make it such a BIG DEAL when you gain just a single point? I'm just speculating on what the differences in performance DESCRIPTION might be for other people, after all you wouldn't in a realistic setting say the old man (Wizard 8 str) has only a 25% less chance to lift something then the Burly weight lifter (martial with 18 str). Game logic has to be balanced and all but thats not what I'm wondering about thoughts on lolWell that's actually my point. A Wizard with 8 Strength actually can beat a professional weight lifter with 18 Strength in an arm wrestling contest more than a quarter of the time.
I wouldn't think one would call for a Strength roll in such a case. In the case of an arm wrestling contest, if one person has a higher STRMod than the other, he simply wins. If they're tied, then I'd go to CON checks for Endurance.
lol, I'm starting to get the idea that 'game terms' is all thats being thought about. I was trying to just get some opinions on what they would mean to people since scores are how you'd judge a characters ability, game logic can never do that in any way other then 'more bonuses' so I wasn't even really using any of it. though Zhayne's point on the amalgamation issue I thought about, but figured generalist terms for things might be enough.
Oh well, was just a question I was posing anyway, admittingly I wasn't thinking said question entirely through lol.
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Only Strength (carry weight) can really be compared to real world abilities. I think it was 16 needed to beat all Olympic weight lifting records.
Arnold Schwarzenegger when was competing for the Mr Universe contests could lift over 298 lbs over his head, which would put him at about an 18 str in game terms.
I know for example that the average score for a human is 10 down the board,
Actually 10.5. (NPC's in Golarion don't roll 3d6)
Or 12.3 if you do 4D6 drop one.
Only Strength (carry weight) can really be compared to real world abilities. I think it was 16 needed to beat all Olympic weight lifting records.Arnold Schwarzenegger when was competing for the Mr Universe contests could lift over 298 lbs over his head, which would put him at about an 18 str in game terms.
I think it depends, though. An 18 strength character lifting 300 pounds over their head still could retain up to +1 dexterity bonus, run, and technically make unarmed strikes still. Would he be able to do that?
Go back in time, wait for him to lift it, then call him a sissy, kick him in the shins, run, and let us know how it turns out...
There is NO comparison from game stats to real life. None.
Game stats are pure fabrication intended to make different characters with the same class play differently.
Even strength has NO real life comparison. Why? Because in real life your abilities are NOT static. In a surge of adrenaline a woman lifts a 2 ton pipe off of her trapped husband; In a color test a body builder has difficulty lifting much weight while staring at a pink card but finds such lifting easy when staring at a blue card; An adolescent boy goes on an intense training routine to double his lifting capabilities in two weeks; A former body builder turned couch potato finds he can't lift very much weight after months of laziness... ect, ect. Everything is relative in real life, I find I can handle moving furniture around easier if I am in a creative mood and impossible if I am in a depressed mood. In real life you have no strength stat, only a range of possibilities which are more or less likely depending on everything from mood to environment. The game CAN'T recreate that and will always fail at expressing reality in stats.
Can we judge how smart people are by how many languages they speak?
mpl is right, though stats do also represent potential, such as Str for weight capacity and mental stats for spell levels you can accomplish.
People like to talk about Olympic Athletes or whatever, but the truth is, the difference between, say, 18 Intelligence and 8 Intelligence is +25% chance to know stuff. Attributes mean remarkably little to the realm of "normal human behavior." Where attributes really matter are with class abilities (DC calculations, bonus spells, etc.).
Except 18 Int means +4 skill points per level, while 8 means -1; that makes a far greater and more realistic percentage of difference, also considering that Knowledge skill can be used untrained only for DC 10 or lower checks (common knowledge that doesn't require any study or ability), and someone with 8 Int is much less likely to train Knowledge skills than a 18 guy.
Not saying that game stats = reality, but they're not as unrealistic as they are sometimes depicted.
The World Deadlift and Benchpress records requires a 22 Str (Both a bit over 1000 lbs). World Squat record 23, 1268 lbs.
The World/Olympic records for the Clean and Jerk (which requires lifting above the head) is also 23, 580 lbs.
Strength is the only really quantifiable stat.
Most people can't even agree upon what the others really mean.
Lifting and Dragging: A character can lift as much as his maximum load over his head. A character's maximum load is the highest amount of weight listed for a character's Strength in the heavy load column of Table: Carrying Capacity.
A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).
A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his maximum load. Favorable conditions can double these numbers, and bad circumstances can reduce them by half or more.
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A Wizard with 8 Strength actually can beat a professional weight lifter with 18 Strength in an arm wrestling contest more than a quarter of the time.
The problem I have with this is that there is no random factor (d20 roll) in an arm wrestling contest. Its all raw muscle and endurance. I would compare str and con mods to see who would win. So the 8 str person would have not chance of winning.
At least thats the way I see it.
The roll in an arm wrestling match if I did a roll would not be about luck. But it would represent the shape you are in at the moment; as someone pointed out already, our real life performances is NOT a static stat. That is what the roll represents, not luck but the fluctuations in performance that we see in real life.
And a side note; arm wrestling is not a sport based on strength alone, technique is a big factor.
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The roll in an arm wrestling match if I did a roll would not be about luck. But it would represent the shape you are in at the moment; as someone pointed out already, our real life performances is NOT a static stat. That is what the roll represents, not luck but the fluctuations in performance that we see in real life.
And a side note; arm wrestling is not a sport based on strength alone, technique is a big factor.
That my be true but if your not a close match in strength all the technique in world wont help.
Again only my opnion.
That may be true but if your not a close match in strength all the technique in world wont help.
Again only my opnion.
I agree with you, if the strength are wildly different then a roll might not even be called for.
A Wizard with 8 Strength actually can beat a professional weight lifter with 18 Strength in an arm wrestling contest more than a quarter of the time.
The problem I have with this is that there is no random factor (d20 roll) in an arm wrestling contest. Its all raw muscle and endurance. I would compare str and con mods to see who would win. So the 8 str person would have not chance of winning.
At least thats the way I see it.
There is a bit of random factor in an arm wrestling contest, but it is closer to a d6 than a d20. (That 18 Strength guy might get a cramp or an itch or something.)
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For reference Mutants & Masterminds 2nd Edition had the following chart for Ability Benchmarks:
Ability Benchmarks
Ability Score (Modifier) Description
1 (–5) Completely inept or disabled
2-3 (–4) Weak; infant
4-5 (–3) Younger child
6-7 (–2) Child, elderly, impaired
8-9 (–1) Below average; teenager
10-11 (+0) Average adult
12-13 (+1) Above average
14-15 (+2) Well above average
16-17 (+3) Gifted
18-19 (+4) Highly gifted
20-21 (+5) Best in a nation
22-23 (+6) Best in the world
24-25 (+7) Best ever; peak of human achievement
26-27 (+8) Low superhuman
28-29 (+9) Moderate superhuman
30 (+10) High superhuman
40 (+15) Very high superhuman
50 (+20) Cosmic
So by that means, a human character who rolled 18 for an Ability and put every Ability Increase (every 4th level) into that same ability would have a score of 23 by 20th level - Best in the World.
As for arm wrestling...
In some cases, an action is a straight test of one’s ability with no luck involved. Just as you wouldn’t make a height check to see who is taller, you don’t make a Strength check to see who is stronger. When two characters arm wrestle, for example, the stronger character simply wins. In the case of identical scores, roll a die.