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Hello.
I have read about alignments and have played some. But I am still curious about chaotic people. What are some of the characteristics of a chaotic character. What are examples of chaotic deeds. Have you ever played in a campaign with chaotic people? What would you say is the major differences between chaotic-good, chaotic-neutral, and chaotic-evil.
Thanks.
Alignment is a confusing, ambiguous, ridiculous, impossible attempt to categorize people into neat little pigeonholes and quantify and objectify the unquantifiable and subjective.
Ignore it.
Also, what Zhayne said are very valid points.
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Zhayne is a very good example of a chaotic person.
Chaotic is the alignment of personal freedom focused characters. Beyond that it's pretty muddy.
Zhayne is well-known for two things:
1. He HATES alignment.
B. He LOVES Eberron.
Alignment is no different than any other guiding statistic or description of your character, and is very useful as a guide to playing him.
Alignment is also a part of the game mechanic as it relates to certain spells, supernatural abilities, and magic item effects. So it can only be ignored with a lot of work, and probably too much work to be worth ignoring it. So you may as well get used to it.
No, real human beings cannot be pigeonholed into alignments because real human beings are very complicated and the real world is different from a fantasy world. (Well, maybe a few Nazis could be roped into alignments - those guys were pretty evil as we understand evil.)
All that said, Pathfinder is not the real world and it does not involve real human beings. It is fantasy game wherein fantasy characters involve themselves in fantasy behavior, and where alignment is a palpable aspect of each character's nature.
Back on topic, Chaotic people generally love freedom or have total freedom as part of a sense of themselves. A simple way to look at it is that Chaotic Good people want everybody to be happy and treated well, but do not want to be held back by laws or regulations. Chaotic Neutral people could give or take the happiness of others, so long as they are left to their own devices. And Chaotic Evil people enjoy inflicting pain and taking what they want, and have no compunctions about doing either.
Alignment is also a part of the game mechanic as it relates to certain spells, supernatural abilities, and magic item effects. So it can only be ignored with a lot of work, and probably too much work to be worth ignoring it. So you may as well get used to it.
Not much work at all, really.
1. Throw out alignment restrictions.2. Effects that only trigger off alignment (Detect Evil, alignment-weapon enhancements) are removed.
3. Effects that are variable based on alignment default to the Neutral effect.
4. Remove the Paladin code, let him Smite anything.
4a. Or just ban the Paladin.
Done.
I respectfully disagree with you, Zhayne. Alignment can be missed, sure, but makes a great starting place to begin to define character motivations. Remember, all alignments are relative, and "pure" alignments exist only in extraplanar creatures that embody them and forces of raw aligned energy. While your alignment should not overbearingly dictate evry action, it may very well color your choices
You can read the official stuff http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/additional-rules. The following is my take:
Chaotic vs. Lawful: Lawful beings act in fairly repetitive, predictable ways according to predisposed patterns, whether they be traditions, habits, laws, whatever. They tend to apply the same rule to all situations that may apply rigidly. I take them to be more intellectual- led by their heads over their hearts.Chaotic beings don't act randomly, but it may seem so to others who don't understand them. They may change patterns of behaviour often, be more spontaneous or impulsive, or have truly bizarre motives that are hard to follow. I take them to follow their hearts or go with what they feel like doing at the time.
Chaotic Good: Definitely good guys, but not necessarily law abiding(although they aren't necessarily outlaws, either). Likely to bend or break rules for what they consider right. Think Robin Hood, Han Solo, or your stereotypical rough-and-tumble hero
Chaotic Neutral: With Neutrals, a being may fall somewhere between Good and Evil, be truly dedicated to Neutrality, or may be so Chaotic that Good/Evil takes a back seat. These beings range from complete free spirits to schizophrenics, rebels without causes to artistic nonconformists. Think Captain Jack Sparrow, Snake Plissken, your stereotypical punk rocker.
Chaotic: These guys are unpredictable psychopaths. They may (or may not) betray their own kind and closest "friends" for whatever mood strikes them. This is Evil unrestrained by anything more than whim, although they CAN work together, usually brute force or harsh necessity binds them. Think Sylar, the Joker, or the stereotypical serial killers and monsters of low intelligence and/or severe derangement.
I don't want to ignore or get past alignment. I want to know more to further benefit myself. But thank you for your answers so far.
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Oh boy...I could write one or more books on this subject, I am not joking. This is a VERY. DEEP. RABBIT HOLE.
I'll start with a few basic things:
- whereas Lawful people derive their power from without, like coat hangers strung on a linear rack, Chaotic people generate their own power.
- Anybody who tries to be "chaotic" in order to be "cool" is not being Chaotic at all. Chaotic alignment isn't usually something you choose - at some point, you just realize you'll never be like other people, whether that's what you want or not.
- Chaotic people don't break laws for the sake of breaking laws, nor does doing so make you Chaotic. A Chaotic person neither respects disrespects, trusts, nor fears authority - this is because a truly Chaotic person simply has no concept of "authority."
- It should be noted that alignment as a whole is, to a degree, ex post facto, and the proper way to evaluate an individual's alignment is holistically, rather than going down some checklist. Internal intent and external effect must both be taken into consideration. For instance, there are some people who may try to be Lawful, and view themselves as such, but they are so divorced, in practice, from the hivemind of society that they can't help but be Chaotic.
- As alluded to initially, perhaps the signature difference between a Lawful person and a Chaotic person is that Lawful people define themselves by group identity, whereas Chaotic people are lonely outsiders. They may participate or even lead, but they ultimately have no loyalty outside their own consciences. They can do "teamwork" just fine, but they don't do "teamthink."
- Other traits common to Chaotic individuals include nihilism (and failing to see why anyone should find it frightening or depressing), creativity, curiosity, xenophilia, irreverence, open and agile minds, a strong sense of self, nonlinear thinking, a somewhat "personalized" language, obliviousness to/contempt for norms and protocol, discontent with the status quo, situational ethics (combined, more often than you might think, with uncompromising morals), vision, comedic talent, insistence on doing things one's own way, whimsy, cosmopolitanism, contempt for "common sense," unfettered honesty, a feeling of not belonging, and strange and novel thoughts and ideas.
- BONUS observation: I emphatically disagree with the assertion that Lawful is "logical mind," while Chaotic is "emotional heart." My observations of the real world and what makes it and the people in it tick, past and present, leads me to believe that that is nothing more than a Victorian stereotype which the human events and scientific revolutions of the 20th Century smashed to smithereens. Having grown up among hippie nerd scientists and intellectuals, and later on having foolishly wasted years of my life trying to understand the mindsets of fascism and fundamentalism, I feel sufficiently comfortable saying that it is, if anything, the other way around.
Rather than pontificate further, let me settle for giving you a list of famous personalities, real and fictitious, who demonstrate genuine Chaotic alignment (in no particular order):
Star Trek:
Q
Lore
Guinan
Trelane
Looney Tunes:
Bugs Bunny
Daffy Duck
Yosemite Sam
Other Television:
Daria Morgendorffer
Dr. Gregory House
Dr. Who
Freakazoid
Yakko, Wacko, and Dot Warner
Adrian Monk
Lucy Ricardo
Bender
Professor Farnsworth
Literature and Theater:
Harry Potter
Willy Wonka
Don Quixote
Sweeney Todd
Hamlet
Falstaff
Scaramouche
Nyarlathotep
Ms. Frizzle
The Phantom of the Opera
History:
Aleister Crowley
Neil Gaiman
H. P. Lovecraft
Abbie Hoffman
Mark Twain
Friedrich Nietzsche
George Orwell
George Carlin
Lenny Bruce
Julian Assange
Charles Manson
Leonardo Da Vinci
Salvador Dali
Hans Fischerkoesen
Jim Henson
Hunter S. Thompson
"Tank Man"
Albert Einstein
Gods, Prophets, and Heroes:
Robin Hood
Lao Tzu
Hermes
Loki
Anansi
Daghda
Coyote
Kokopelli
Comic Books:
The Tick
The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs At Midnight
Magneto
The Joker
Carnage
Catwoman
John Constantine
V
Mr. Mxyzptlk
Movies:
Rick Blaine
The Marx Brothers
Dr. Emmett Brown
Han Solo
Alex DeLarge
Hannibal Lecter
Captain Jack Sparrow
Beetlejuice
Computer, Video, and Tabletop Games:
Carmen Sandiego (Where In The World Is Carmen Sandiego?)
Elminster (The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting)
Grobnar Gnomehands (Neverwinter Nights 2)
Bobbin Threadbare (Loom)
Morte (Planescape: Torment)
Malcolm the Jester (The Legend of Kyrandia)
THERE. That give you some inklings?
For the 99,000,000 time, Robin Hood is Neutral Good. He obeys the King's good laws and even enforces them. He only breaks the evil Prince's laws because they are unjust and unreasonable. He returns to following the law when his king returns.
He does not disregard law as the norm, and would prefer to live under it, and even enforce it. So long as it is good. He doesn't disagree with law generally, nor live to escape it.
He is @#$%ing NEUTRAL.
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For the 99,000,000 time, Robin Hood is Neutral Good. He obeys the King's good laws and even enforces them. He only breaks the evil Prince's laws because they are unjust and unreasonable. He returns to following the law when his king returns.
He does not disregard law as the norm, and would prefer to live under it, and even enforce it. So long as it is good. He doesn't disagree with law generally, nor live to escape it.
He is @#$%ing NEUTRAL.
As I mentioned above, Chaotic individuals don't necessarily live to break laws and rules - to be a compulsive lawbreaker on principle would almost be a sort of Lawful. You could fairly say it's a little ambiguous in Robin Hood's case, but abundant room is left to call him Chaotic, especially since he's inconsistent with regard to his interactions with the law - he doesn't revere it, neither in the form of deference or fear, it's just a handy tool to him, one which is only worth keeping around so long as it helps people. The "BECAUSE I SAY SO" rationale doesn't cut any ice with him. I guess the final question in Robin Hood's case would simply be, would be any more deferential to one king than the other, or would he put his conscience first regardless of who occupied the throne?
Chaotic Good- Batman
Because it is an alignment thread and no-one seems to have posted it yet Batman