Saving Power Feats for your Role Card


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I am currently playing as Lem who is also the character I primarily used during the playtest. I love his flexibility. Recently I've been salivating over his Role card (Virtuoso). Letting him use his inspiration ability on himself is something that I pushed for during playtest and I'm really happy that it made it into the final cut. I just wish I didn't have to wait until February to get it! Ahh, the wait is killing me.

Anyway, to the actual question in the subject line, I really don't care much about armor and I don't know if I'll ever use a card feat to get the one armor slot he has access to. I'm worried that by the end of Chapter 3, I may be forced to take Proficient With Light Armors as a power feat which will probably be a complete waste. So I was wondering, if characters gain access to all four of their basic power feats in the first 3 chapters, is it okay to just not use one of those power feats and save it until you get your role card?

I do see that on page 19, it says that if you have no unchecked feats of the type you're gaining, you don't gain a feat. So I'm thinking that by the current rules as written, saving a power feat for your role card isn't allowed. But is there anything wrong with it? Either as a house rule or even changing the rules to allow it, is there anything wrong with being a power feat behind for a few scenarios until you can actually get one you'd like to have?

What does everyone think? And is anyone else out there just itching to get their role cards, too?

PS: Or maybe I'm worrying about nothing. Would a developer be willing to chime in and let us know if we do gain 4 power feats within the first three chapters? Or if anyone out there might have a copy of chapter 3 already somehow?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

You will gain a power feat during adventure 3, and you will *also* gain one at the end of the Adventure, at the exact same time you get your role card.

Sometimes, you will gain things that are not useful to you yet. This is true in the Pathfinder RPG as well.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Yeah, I understand that. But unless you gain enough card feats in the adventure path to fill up all of the character's check boxes, Light Armor will likely be nearly useless permanently. It would only come into play when I might gain a piece of armor and use it in the same scenario. And that's if it has a bonus for characters proficient with light armor. I remember speaking out against Lem's armor proficiency during the playtest (granted that was before there was a difference between light and heavy). I'm a little sad, since I still feel that it's a wasted feat for the most part, but I'm happy that just about all of my other problems with him were fixed in some way. Thanks again for listening.


I have a few characters that I feel might be getting an almost useless card feat, in a later play through I may house rule saving them, but not at first. Good to know that we will get a power feat at the end, when we get the role card. Virtuoso will rock, I'm taking the same power as you off the bat. It's like getting the druids bonus 1d4, except any card lets you do it! (and recharging, but whatever.)


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Sorry to bring this back up, but Sunday my group finished Adventure 2 and we have currently only gained 2 power feats. If we indeed will only get one more power feat before we get our role cards, then I will in fact NOT be forced to take the Light Armor power! That makes me happy. It might sound weird, but I hope we will still have power feats left un-checked at the end of Adventure 6. It makes the characters more customizable when everyone doesn't get every power and has to pick which ones they want.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I dunno, Lem does sometimes have trouble with taking damage. He can grab some of the Sihedron Medallions, Wand of Shield and Amulet of Life, but I can see a Leather Armor being very useful for him, even if he has to banish it for a while until he grabs proficiency.

However, Weapon Proficiency is probably more useful for him. It kinda sucks that he doesn't have a lot of options on the Power Feat end until he gets a role card, but he kind of makes up for it by being good at a lot of other things.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Yeah—you get your 4th power feat at the same time you get your role card.

Also, you'll get a total of 7 power feats in the course of the AP. So not only is there replay value in playing with different classes, but also in playing the same classes with different role and feat selections.


Vic Wertz wrote:
So not only is there replay value in playing with different classes, but also in playing the same classes with different role and feat selections.

Nice to hear you guys have thought of everything, even the replay value even though a new set will be hot on the heels at the end of Rise of the Runelords.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

So to clarify...you are definitely, if you follow the rules, without changing them, NOT allowed to save feats you earn, you have to upgrade the appropriate section being power, skill, or card, the moment yu end that scenario or adventure, whatever grants you that point? I didn't see it directly said above so I figured id ask cause that question is what led me here

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

As written (and as intended) when you gain a feat, you check a box right away.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
As written (and as intended) when you gain a feat, you check a box right away.

okz, thanks, I guess also to clarify, I see that the timeline for releases puts the 6th adventure deck as the last one until the process is repeated? so does that mean never in the future will there be anything more released for this set of characters and such? and will the current characters not be able to be used on the other set seeing how its pirate themed?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

You can use the character *cards* from Runelords, starting them with no feats and giving them new starting decks.

You can't, though, take a character and deck that has played through Rise of the Runelords and start Skull & Shackles with it—that would be like dropping a 20th-level RPG character into an adventure designed for 1st-level characters.

I'm not saying we'll *never* release new content for high-level characters, but we don't currently have anything planned. (I would note that you could, in theory, take a character that has played through 5 Rise of the Runelords Adventure Decks and run it through Skull & Shackles Chapter 6 instead of Runelords Chapter 6 with minimal issues... but I think you'll really just want to start a new character and run the whole Adventure Path.)


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:

You can use the character *cards* from Runelords, starting them with no feats and giving them new starting decks.

You can't, though, take a character and deck that has played through Rise of the Runelords and start Skull & Shackles with it—that would be like dropping a 20th-level RPG character into an adventure designed for 1st-level characters.

I'm not saying we'll *never* release new content for high-level characters, but we don't currently have anything planned. (I would note that you could, in theory, take a character that has played through 5 Rise of the Runelords Adventure Decks and run it through Skull & Shackles Chapter 6 instead of Runelords Chapter 6 with minimal issues... but I think you'll really just want to start a new character and run the whole Adventure Path.)

alright thanks, sounds fair


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
I'm not saying we'll *never* release new content for high-level characters, but we don't currently have anything planned.

It'd be awesome if there is eventually a Mythic expansion or two released. Expansions made with Adventure levels 7 through 12, playable as expansions to come directly after Rise of the Runelords, Skull & Shackles, and/or any other base sets that come out later. There can be new role cards that can be added to any character in addition to the role card gained after Adventure level 3, based off of the Mythic Paths from the Mythic Adventures book: Archmage, Champion, etc. Probably have two or three versions of each path for a total of 12 or 18 role options. In addition to new power feats, they could also add extra skill and card feats to characters. Just a thought. Might need some new high level Mythic adventure paths in the RPG to base them off of first, though.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
I'm not saying we'll *never* release new content for high-level characters, but we don't currently have anything planned.

My response:http://youtu.be/yCFB2akLh4s?t=13s


Vic Wertz wrote:
You can use the character *cards* from Runelords, starting them with no feats and giving them new starting decks.

What about the weapons? Let's say I would like to run a gun-slinger in the Runelords Adventure Path. Can the guns from Skull & Shackles be ported into the weapon deck?

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

They certainly can, but it's not clear they should. In theory, you could get several different base sets and shuffle them together, then shuffle in all of the adventure 1s from different paths, and so on. But then every game would feel basically the same. Maybe that's good for you, and maybe it's bad. We're not going to rule on it for that reason.


Could you not, by the rules of the game, complete the scenario and NOT take the reward, and then come back after you have the role card and re-complete the scenario, and take the reward then?


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Orbis Orboros wrote:
Could you not, by the rules of the game, complete the scenario and NOT take the reward, and then come back after you have the role card and re-complete the scenario, and take the reward then?

I don't think so. You earned the reward. And the reward doesn't say "You may earn a Power feat." It says you are rewarded with a Power feat. And even if you could choose not to take it, you could not earn the reward again. Just like if you get rewarded with a "Random Weapon" from the box and choose not to keep that weapon, you can't replay that scenario and earn the reward again. So receiving the reward once has no relation to whether you actually choose to take the reward. But I still think the feats are not optional.

But even if you could, wouldn't you feel like you were cheating? I think the idea is that you'll have to take 3 of the 4 on your "base" character card. For some of the characters, there is intentionally an increased hand size because two of the 4 boxes are in hand size. I think that is intentional. The obvious design intent is that you have 3 checked before you get your role card.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Here's the convoluted "cheat free" path to extra role card power feats:

1. Get killed around the beginning of adventure 3
2. Make a new character using the normal rules
3. Play adventure 3 with said character, gaining one power feat that spends on your base character.
4. Finish Hook Mountain, gaining your role card and power feat
5. Ah, but this character hasn't played adventures 1 or 2 - play them now, getting 2 more power feats now that you already have your role card.

Or you could, you know, just do as you like because it's your game.

This actually makes me wonder - does a replacement character who starts in adventure 4+ get their role card since it's a adventure 3 reward? I haven't looked to see if that's addressed in the death rules as it obviously hasn't come up. I presume RAI is that you always have a role card in 4-6.


Hawkmoon269 wrote:

...

But even if you could, wouldn't you feel like you were cheating? I think the idea is that you'll have to take 3 of the 4 on your "base" character card. For some of the characters, there is intentionally an increased hand size because two of the 4 boxes are in hand size. I think that is intentional. The obvious design intent is that you have 3 checked before you get your role card.

I personally wouldn't, because you are doing without the feat for x amount of time in exchange for spending it on something more powerful later. I mean, what if you only ever got two power feats in the game? I wouldn't feel the slightest bit guilty about going through half the game with no pwer feats at all so that I could play the second half with two from the role card. Of course, this is probably due to my background being more from video games then tabletop RPG's. As an example, in Skyrim, you can wait to spend your equivalent of feats until you're a high enough level to put them where you want.

i see your point, though. I just wish they had offered a couple more options on the original card, then.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
ryric wrote:

Here's the convoluted "cheat free" path to extra role card power feats:

1. Get killed around the beginning of adventure 3
2. Make a new character using the normal rules
3. Play adventure 3 with said character, gaining one power feat that spends on your base character.
4. Finish Hook Mountain, gaining your role card and power feat
5. Ah, but this character hasn't played adventures 1 or 2 - play them now, getting 2 more power feats now that you already have your role card.

Or you could, you know, just do as you like because it's your game.

This actually makes me wonder - does a replacement character who starts in adventure 4+ get their role card since it's a adventure 3 reward? I haven't looked to see if that's addressed in the death rules as it obviously hasn't come up. I presume RAI is that you always have a role card in 4-6.

I do wholeheartedly support the idea of doing what you wish with the game that makes you happy to play it. I think Mike has said pretty much the same thing elsewhere. Change the game however you want if it makes it more enjoyable for you.

But if I'm trying to actually follow the rules (and I'm not totally a stickler for the rules as I'll demonstrate in a moment), then even though that "cheat free" path exists, I'd still feel wrong taking it. I think the "spirit" of the rules is just as important as the "letter" of the rules. And besides, if you wanted to put in all that time necessary to shift power feats from your "base" character card to your role card using that method, then in one sense I think you've earned it.

I think there are actually all kinds of issues with death late in the Adventure Path. The one you bring up being one of them. So the one place I'm willing to break the rules is death. I've posted this elsewhere, but I am under no illusions everyone reads and remembers my posts (I don't even remember some of them.) For me, death will result in a failed scenario with all decks reset back to what they were before the scenario. So no keeping acquired boons for the living characters. I think the intention of penalty of death is to curtail risky playing. Because if you die your character is gone, you won't take the risk dying.

In my situation, with a full-time job, a part-time job, a wife and three kids, my time is precious. As much as I love this game, there are other things (the last two in that list for example) that I love more. So finding time to play doesn't happen a whole lot. That means, for me at least, if death means I've wasted my last hour or so and now have to waste another 20 figuring out what I started the scenario with, that is enough to curtail my risky play. In my different groups, we've come close to death 4 times now I think. Only once did we press on in the scenario, and only then because we were supremely confident Amiri could chop the head off the villain on her next turn, despite having only 3 cards left in her deck.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Orbis Orboros wrote:
Hawkmoon269 wrote:

...

But even if you could, wouldn't you feel like you were cheating? I think the idea is that you'll have to take 3 of the 4 on your "base" character card. For some of the characters, there is intentionally an increased hand size because two of the 4 boxes are in hand size. I think that is intentional. The obvious design intent is that you have 3 checked before you get your role card.

I personally wouldn't, because you are doing without the feat for x amount of time in exchange for spending it on something more powerful later. I mean, what if you only ever got two power feats in the game? I wouldn't feel the slightest bit guilty about going through half the game with no pwer feats at all so that I could play the second half with two from the role card. Of course, this is probably due to my background being more from video games then tabletop RPG's. As an example, in Skyrim, you can wait to spend your equivalent of feats until you're a high enough level to put them where you want.

i see your point, though. I just wish they had offered a couple more options on the original card, then.

That is an interesting point about background. Lots of video games have strategies designed to let you do things that aren't the obvious options or even cheat codes. And in a video game the system of rules are hard coded. If you can do it, you can obviously do it because it worked.

I think people that play RPGs also bring in a lot of "presuppositions", so to speak, when they approach PACG.

And there are others that are more "boardgamers" that bring in their backgrounds when they interpret the rules.

It is interesting how people from so many backgrounds are drawn to this game. I think that alone speaks volumes for how amazing this game is.


Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Orbis Orboros wrote:
Hawkmoon269 wrote:

...

But even if you could, wouldn't you feel like you were cheating? I think the idea is that you'll have to take 3 of the 4 on your "base" character card. For some of the characters, there is intentionally an increased hand size because two of the 4 boxes are in hand size. I think that is intentional. The obvious design intent is that you have 3 checked before you get your role card.

I personally wouldn't, because you are doing without the feat for x amount of time in exchange for spending it on something more powerful later. I mean, what if you only ever got two power feats in the game? I wouldn't feel the slightest bit guilty about going through half the game with no pwer feats at all so that I could play the second half with two from the role card. Of course, this is probably due to my background being more from video games then tabletop RPG's. As an example, in Skyrim, you can wait to spend your equivalent of feats until you're a high enough level to put them where you want.

i see your point, though. I just wish they had offered a couple more options on the original card, then.

That is an interesting point about background. Lots of video games have strategies designed to let you do things that aren't the obvious options or even cheat codes. And in a video game the system of rules are hard coded. If you can do it, you can obviously do it because it worked.

I think people that play RPGs also bring in a lot of "presuppositions", so to speak, when they approach PACG.

And there are others that are more "boardgamers" that bring in their backgrounds when they interpret the rules.

It is interesting how people from so many backgrounds are drawn to this game. I think that alone speaks volumes for how amazing this game is.

I don't use cheat codes or anything like that, but beyond that, if it works, I'm okay with it.

And I'm not THAT far removed, background-wise. While it's true that I've never played a tabletop RPG, I do wargame (Warmachine/Hordes) and play board games at my local game store (how I found this).

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

Hawkmoon269 wrote:

I do wholeheartedly support the idea of doing what you wish with the game that makes you happy to play it. I think Mike has said pretty much the same thing elsewhere. Change the game however you want if it makes it more enjoyable for you.

But if I'm trying to actually follow the rules (and I'm not totally a stickler for the rules as I'll demonstrate in a moment), then even though that "cheat free" path exists, I'd still feel wrong taking it. I think the "spirit" of the rules is just as important as the "letter" of the rules. And besides, if you wanted to put in all that time necessary to shift power feats from your "base" character card to your role card using that method, then in one sense I think you've earned it.

I think there are actually all kinds of issues with death late in the Adventure Path. The one you bring up being one of them. So the one place I'm willing to break the rules is death. I've posted this elsewhere, but I am under no illusions everyone reads and remembers my posts (I don't even remember some of them.) For me, death will result in a failed scenario with all decks reset back to what they were before the scenario. So no keeping acquired boons for the living characters. I think the intention of penalty of death is to curtail risky playing. Because if you die your character is gone, you won't take the risk of dying.

Philosophically:

My short answer is "do what you want." We don't make rules about the social contract.

My long answer is "do what you want, but think about it first." When you make adjustments to the death or advancement rules, do you change your style of play now that you know you can't die, or that feats are guaranteed? For example, do you say, "Merisiel doesn't evade the Stone Giant because the worst that could happen is I draw my last card?" If you pick nothing but "the best feats" off the role card instead of the early feats off the base character card, does that mean you're more powerful than the game wants you to be? If so, do you feel your victory is more hollow?

As long as that's not the case, then I support it. But if you feel the game is less fun because it is easier or more safe, then you haven't enjoyed the game to the fullest when you do succeed.

So, y'know, do what you want.

Mike


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Yeah, that is what I was attempting to say. My version of death doesn't make me make different choices. For me my punishment is just as bad as the official punishment. So I've 3 times sacrificed the win in order to stay alive, even with knowing I wouldn't do a total reset.

I want to note how great the attitude is from the design team when dealing with people having their own house rules. From what I've gleaned that seems a common thing in RPGs, but since I don't play RPGs it wasn't something I was familiar with. If it was me I'd be much more tempted to want people to play the way I planned it, and maybe even be angry that they weren't. Its great to see you guys say "Its ok to change this thing we spent months creating if changing it is what makes you happy." So thanks for that.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

I just want to say that by my interpretation, the Cheat-Free method to gain extra role powers doesn't work. If you're playing the Adventure Path, you need to complete the adventures in order. Since Merisiel Jr. hasn't completed Burnt Offerings and the Skinsaw Murders, she couldn't legally participate in the Hook Mountain Massacre and get her role card before completing the first 2 adventures.


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I want to religiously play by the rules but similarly as Hawkmoon269 my time is very limited. I play solo because I don't have a gaming group, so to me a fun time is when I have great chance of winning and having satisfaction of accomplishing it. Quite honestly I don't mind dying but it should occur only because of stupid mistakes I made and not because the game is unforgiving and ridiculously hard. Right now my punishment is when I encounter a boon that I really want but somehow can't make the check... those are the ones that really hurt :).


And then there's that thought that once you've completely leveled up your character...They're done...There's nothing for them to gain anymore.

But at least you know you're done with them.

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