Multiclassing ninja / slayer possible?


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Is it?


Have they released the general rule on multiclassing with the "base" classes? If you can't multiclass slayer to rogue, you couldn't do ninja.


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I remember that rule from the playtest document. The ACG classes act as alternate base classes for both of their component classes, so you can't multiclass into either base class. Presumably, this would also prevent multiclassing into other alternates of the same base classes. Also, class.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Ravingdork wrote:
Is it?

Can you be a Ninja / Rogue?

Silver Crusade

For the first time in a couple weeks, James and I agree. No, you cannot multi-class ninja and slayer, because being a slayer counts as being a rogue and ninja is just a rogue archetype.


While I agree with blahpers, since the ACG isn't released yet it might be a good idea to just add that in explicitly. I know that for awhile I was unaware that you could not cross-class Ninja and Rogue; probably better to just avoid the confusion and note that the Slayer's 'parent' classes are Rogue\Ninja.

[edit]
Also, this should probably go in the ACG playtest forum rather than the rules forum.

Shadow Lodge

Yeah, I don't think you can, unless you can be a Slayer/Scout or a Slayer/Thug, because one of the Devs has mentioned the alternate classes in the Ultimate Combat as being a big archetype, and a lot of people play Ninjas with the Scout archetype because it helps with sneak attack. Sadly, this is probably the same a being a Warpriest/Brawler(Class, not archetype) or being a Slayer/Investigator. Not doable.


No. Ninja is an alternate class for a rogue. Slayer is a hybrid class including the rogue.


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No

Advance Class Playtest wrote:

If you have levels in one of these new classes, you cannot take levels in either of its alternate classes, nor can you take levels in a class in this playtest that also has either of those alternate classes. For example, if you take levels in arcanist (alternate classes: sorcerer and wizard), you can’t also take levels in sorcerer or wizard, nor can you take levels in bloodrager (alternate classes: sorcerer and barbarian).

Likewise, if you have levels in a base class, you cannot take levels in any of the classes in this playtest that list that base class as an alternate class. For example, if you have levels in rogue, you can’t take levels in investigator (alternate classes: rogue and alchemist) or slayer (alternate classes: rogue and ranger).


... Uhm... Where does it say that you can't multiclass ninja/rogue? I'm not disputing it, I just haven't seen that rule.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Robert, the text you quoted would seem to allow for it, since the slayer's component classes do not include ninja, and ninja is not one of the hybrid classes mentioned in the playtest.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Even if there is such a rule, Lifat (and I do remember there being one), it wouldn't apply to this situation anyways.

As written, I see nothing prohibiting this combo.

Slayer's component classes do not include ninja, and ninja is not a hybrid class from the playtest.


Ravingdork wrote:

Even if there is such a rule, Lifat (and I do remember there being one), it wouldn't apply to this situation anyways.

As written, I see nothing prohibiting this combo.

Slayer's component classes do not include ninja, and ninja is not a hybrid class from the playtest.

So why exactly have you asked the question in two different topics if you're already so sure of the answer?

Yes, Ninja is not mentioned that it is one of the classes involved in slayer. However, Rogue is. Ninja is just an alternate class of Rogue, and Rogue isn't allowed. So no, Ninja/Slayer isn't allowed by the rules. It's not explicit, but it's there.


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Starfinder Superscriber

But Ninja is an alternate rogue class, so again no.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Ravingdork wrote:
Robert, the text you quoted would seem to allow for it, since the slayer's component classes do not include ninja, and ninja is not one of the hybrid classes mentioned in the playtest.

What everyone else has said. Ninjas are Rogues, Slayer's cannot take levels in Rogue, so Slayers cannot take levels of Ninja.

Dark Archive

The rules do indeed seem to indicate that this utilizing slayer and ninja together would not work. As ninja is already listed as an alternate for rogue, it would fall under the purview of the rule preventing these dips.


If a class is ruled out for multiclassing it would be safe to assume that it's alternate class is also off limits.

Can you please give the developers time to finish the product before rule lawering over semantics?


Will Hubbard wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Even if there is such a rule, Lifat (and I do remember there being one), it wouldn't apply to this situation anyways.

As written, I see nothing prohibiting this combo.

Slayer's component classes do not include ninja, and ninja is not a hybrid class from the playtest.

So why exactly have you asked the question in two different topics if you're already so sure of the answer?

Yes, Ninja is not mentioned that it is one of the classes involved in slayer. However, Rogue is. Ninja is just an alternate class of Rogue, and Rogue isn't allowed. So no, Ninja/Slayer isn't allowed by the rules. It's not explicit, but it's there.

Okay, why do people keep saying that ninja is an alternate class of rogue? That is not how it was presented in the book. Is there some ruling that I've missed?


Ravingdork wrote:
Why or why not?

No, same reason that you can't multiclass ninja with rogue.


Lifat wrote:
Will Hubbard wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Even if there is such a rule, Lifat (and I do remember there being one), it wouldn't apply to this situation anyways.

As written, I see nothing prohibiting this combo.

Slayer's component classes do not include ninja, and ninja is not a hybrid class from the playtest.

So why exactly have you asked the question in two different topics if you're already so sure of the answer?

Yes, Ninja is not mentioned that it is one of the classes involved in slayer. However, Rogue is. Ninja is just an alternate class of Rogue, and Rogue isn't allowed. So no, Ninja/Slayer isn't allowed by the rules. It's not explicit, but it's there.

Okay, why do people keep saying that ninja is an alternate class of rogue? That is not how it was presented in the book. Is there some ruling that I've missed?

Actually, that was how it was presented in the book. It's just in a part that's oft overlooked, the class Role section.

PRD wrote:
Role: The ninja spends almost all of her time honing her skills, practicing her art, or working on her next assignment. Even when not specifically working, the ninja is ever vigilant and ready for the situation to turn deadly. Her line of work earns her many enemies, but it is a list that she frequently reduces through assassination and misdirection. The ninja is an alternate class for the rogue core class.

EDIT:And the samurai is an alternate class of the cavalier as well.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Sorry about the dual threads. I originally posted it in the rules forums, thought better of it, then posted in the class forums.

I guess they moved the former into the class forums as well. Hopefully they will merge the two.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jonathon Vining wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Why or why not?
No, same reason that you can't multiclass ninja with rogue.

Except I'm not trying to multiclass ninja with rogue.


Ultimate Combat, p. 8 wrote:

Alternate Classes

These are standalone classes whose basic ideas . . . *etc*

An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class--a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa. The antipaladin from Advanced Player's Guide is also an anternate class.


Ravingdork wrote:
Jonathon Vining wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Why or why not?
No, same reason that you can't multiclass ninja with rogue.
Except I'm not trying to multiclass ninja with rogue.

I think i can see what you hope to achive and knowing your history i am tamptet to say yes.( because i am sure it will be fantastic)

But i think, as everybody else that have written here, that it is a no.
But keep it alive i the no multiclass rule may go away.Wwhen the classes are more done.

And to as why not. It is my impression that the ninja count as a rogue when it comes to multiclassing because an alternate class simply is an expanded archtype.


Sniggevert wrote:
Lifat wrote:
Will Hubbard wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Even if there is such a rule, Lifat (and I do remember there being one), it wouldn't apply to this situation anyways.

As written, I see nothing prohibiting this combo.

Slayer's component classes do not include ninja, and ninja is not a hybrid class from the playtest.

So why exactly have you asked the question in two different topics if you're already so sure of the answer?

Yes, Ninja is not mentioned that it is one of the classes involved in slayer. However, Rogue is. Ninja is just an alternate class of Rogue, and Rogue isn't allowed. So no, Ninja/Slayer isn't allowed by the rules. It's not explicit, but it's there.

Okay, why do people keep saying that ninja is an alternate class of rogue? That is not how it was presented in the book. Is there some ruling that I've missed?

Actually, that was how it was presented in the book. It's just in a part that's oft overlooked, the class Role section.

PRD wrote:
Role: The ninja spends almost all of her time honing her skills, practicing her art, or working on her next assignment. Even when not specifically working, the ninja is ever vigilant and ready for the situation to turn deadly. Her line of work earns her many enemies, but it is a list that she frequently reduces through assassination and misdirection. The ninja is an alternate class for the rogue core class.
EDIT:And the samurai is an alternate class of the cavalier as well.

Thank you. That is the bit of information I was overlooking.

@Blaphers Thanks to you too.
I'm sure you guys know how it is. You keep re-reading stuff and somehow the point you are trying to find simply gets skipped by your eyes.


Personally, I think both the ninja/rogue, samurai/cavalier, and hybrid/parent multiclass restrictions are unnecessary. My games don't have multiclass restrictions for the first two, and they won't have such restrictions for the hybrid classes either.

That said, under the rules as written, I don't believe you could multiclass a ninja/slayer.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Jonathon Vining wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Why or why not?
No, same reason that you can't multiclass ninja with rogue.
Except I'm not trying to multiclass ninja with rogue.

They're not saying you are. They're saying ninja = rogue for the purpose of multiclassing.

Seriously mate. I've read some of your posts before. You're smarter than this

Digital Products Assistant

Merged threads.


A = B is not allowed.

A = C is not allowed.

Is B = C allowed? Logically, most likely not.

You cannot cross-class Ninja and Rogue because they are variations on the same class. They're almost predecessors to the hybrids presented in the ACG (Ninja is like a Rogue\Monk\Alchemist mixture).

Thus, since Rogue\Ninja is not allowed and Slayer\Rogue is not allowed, it follows that Slayer\Ninja would not be allowed.

Liberty's Edge

By pure RAW, you can definitely multiclass Slayer/Ninja (as an example). You can't multiclass Slayer/Rogue because Slayer specifically says it can't multiclass with Rogue. You can't multiclass Ninja/Rogue because the section that includes Ninja specifically says you can't.

But there is no rule that specifically states that a Ninja counts as a Rogue. There are rules that say that Ninja can take Rogue options, and there are rules that state that Ninja can't multiclass with Rogue, but there is nothing that says "The Ninja counts as a Rogue for all effects."

Therefore you can multiclass Slayer/Ninja by the current rules as written. That might not be the intended rules, and there very well might be rules added to change that. But by a strict literal interpretation, it isn't currently forbidden.

(Note: while the playtest rules do specifically call out that you can't take levels in a class that have the same alternate class, it also specifically says that that rule applies to other classes in the playtest. So you can't have a Slayer/Investigator because they're both in the playtest and share an alternate class. But you can have a Slayer/Ninja because Ninja isn't in the playtest document, and therefore isn't covered by that rule.)

Paizo Employee Design Manager

JRutterbush wrote:
But there is no rule that specifically states that a Ninja counts as a Rogue.

'

This is a very bold statement, and one contradicted by the core material that notes that ninja is an alternate class of a rogue, i.e. a rogue who's different enough from the baseline to justify a full write up instead of an archetype, but still a rogue.


Also you're trying to pull RAW on a document that lists sneak attack at 3rd & 4th level, and refers to rangers favoured enemy in some parts.

Looking at how they've rogue and ninja, it's pretty easy to see what the RAI is.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nevertheless, confirmation would be nice.


Since RAW (RAPT?) has been covered at this point:

The hybrid classes appear to be intended to work as alternate classes for two base classes, not just a blend of the two. I haven't worked out why that is yet; possibly to prevent someone from doing something screwy like playing two hybrids and a base class and getting three weak copies of the same ability, especially if that ability is typically tied to a single provider such as a patron, mystery, or bloodline. As if crossblooded sorcerers with Eldritch Heritage weren't crazy enough, now we'd be able to throw in bloodrager for another bloodline.

But you can already do some very silly things, like taking one level of every base class, so I don't see the need to impose this restriction.

Ravingdork, what sort of build did you have in mind? Since this thing's in playtest, it could be useful data for the design team to see what players want to make when they see the new content. Does the build simply play more roguishly than a slayer, or is it an exploit (hey, I ain't gonna judge) to get a level up on some shared ability?


@OP: nope. ninja counts as rogue (and samurai as cavalier) and yiu cant multiclass between them (exact line was noted earlier in the thread), and the playtest doc already says you cant multiclass hybrids and their base parts (again, someone cited the exact line earlier in the thread). slayer is part rogue, and ninja is a rogue, so you cant multiclass them.

not sure how people are still confused about at this point.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I see why everyone believes the way they do, but I still don't see any specific rule prohibiting it.

Only assumptions.


Ravingdork wrote:

I see why everyone believes the way they do, but I still don't see any specific rule prohibiting it.

Only assumptions.

er, how isnt there a rule prohibiting it? both sides of said prohibition are pointed out.

and alternate class cannot multiclass into its base (ninja/rogue) just like an alternate class cannot multiclass into its base (slayer/rogue).

ninja = rogue and slayer = rogue, at what point does either part stop being a rogue?


Ravingdork wrote:

I see why everyone believes the way they do, but I still don't see any specific rule prohibiting it.

Only assumptions.

considering the part excluding it has already been quoted, considering the rules don't accommodate stating the obvious (if you believe it is not obvious, have you seen this thread? everyone seems to agree there is no doubt) and the simple fallacy that an absence of explicitly does not mean it is exactly that.


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Ravingdork doesn't ask questions looking for an answer. He asks questions as a challenge to see if the forums can prove his already figured answer wrong, with page numbers and RAW wording, with no wriggle-room applied for common sense or rules by association. (A=B does not mean B=A unless a page somewhere says it does with all the proper air-tight grammar.)

I think he keeps a kill-count by exploded head somewhere near his computer.

If Rogue = Ninja and Rogue is not allowed, 99% of people also realize that Ninja is not allowed. This however, is likely just an assumption to you so ignore it and do whatever you want.


Diekssus wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

I see why everyone believes the way they do, but I still don't see any specific rule prohibiting it.

Only assumptions.

considering the part excluding it has already been quoted, considering the rules don't accommodate stating the obvious (if you believe it is not obvious, have you seen this thread? everyone seems to agree there is no doubt) and the simple fallacy that an absence of explicitly does not mean it is exactly that.

I think this one have been won for 4 days.

No need to find voldes arguments and re open them.

Liberty's Edge

Ninja is an alternate class for Rogue. Per UC : "An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class."

I see your point RD. The way it is written (ie "a base class" rather than "the base class"), we could interpret it as Ninja cannot multiclass with Rogue but could with Rogue hybrids such as Slayer.

Note however that AFAIK the above UC sentence has always been interpreted as meaning that Ninja operates exactly as Rogue except for taking a level in Rogue. Examples of this appear in requirements for feats, PrC. There are no special rules for Ninja because it is assumed that Ninja = Rogue.

If you follow this reasoning, then the Ninja = Rogue thing also applies here. Then you cannot multiclass Ninja with Slayer.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nothing you said is the least bit true about me, Radsworth.

Thank you Black Raven.


The black raven wrote:

Ninja is an alternate class for Rogue. Per UC : "An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class."

I see your point RD. The way it is written (ie "a base class" rather than "the base class"), we could interpret it as Ninja cannot multiclass with Rogue but could with Rogue hybrids such as Slayer.

Note however that AFAIK the above UC sentence has always been interpreted as meaning that Ninja operates exactly as Rogue except for taking a level in Rogue. Examples of this appear in requirements for feats, PrC. There are no special rules for Ninja because it is assumed that Ninja = Rogue.

If you follow this reasoning, then the Ninja = Rogue thing also applies here. Then you cannot multiclass Ninja with Slayer.

and that argument would hold, If you insist on maintaining your own ignorance by ignoring everything that's been said in this thread. Its not merely assumption. insisting that there is doubt about it is, if nothing else, petty


Diekssus wrote:
The black raven wrote:

Ninja is an alternate class for Rogue. Per UC : "An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class."

I see your point RD. The way it is written (ie "a base class" rather than "the base class"), we could interpret it as Ninja cannot multiclass with Rogue but could with Rogue hybrids such as Slayer.

Note however that AFAIK the above UC sentence has always been interpreted as meaning that Ninja operates exactly as Rogue except for taking a level in Rogue. Examples of this appear in requirements for feats, PrC. There are no special rules for Ninja because it is assumed that Ninja = Rogue.

If you follow this reasoning, then the Ninja = Rogue thing also applies here. Then you cannot multiclass Ninja with Slayer.

and that argument would hold, If you insist on maintaining your own ignorance by ignoring everything that's been said in this thread. Its not merely assumption. insisting that there is doubt about it is, if nothing else, petty

Lol did you read what you quoted?

Edit: And dont bust a vessel mate you dragged a 4 days dead tread out in the ligth to scream at the OP. Pehaps we just let it die now ok?


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See, problems like this are exactly why rules ought be written in the notation of first-order logic. Full expressiveness without ambiguity![/sarcasm]

It's a playtest document. There's gonna be some bugs. It's almost certainly not RAI. If your goal is pointing out a bug in RAW, there are better ways of doing it than trollish rhetorical questions.

Liberty's Edge

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The very funny thing is that by the RAW definition of alternate classes in UC, you can take levels in Rogue and later multiclass in Ninja, since the interdiction is only from Ninja to Rogue ;-)


Quote:
Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes, yet whose required alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa.

then again this is just from the d20pfsrd page on alternate classes. i dont have the book on-hand to find and quote the page/line/etc.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

ravingdork, this concept really shouldn't be so hard to see.

You cannot multiclass into a class in which an advanced class belongs to:
for example, Ninja cannot multiclass into rogue via
"An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save
that a character who takes a level in an alternate class
can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai
cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa."

So with that information, a ninja can never become a rogue, or another alternate class that belongs to the same father class.

for further information
"If you have levels in one of these new classes, you
cannot take levels in either of its alternate classes, nor
can you take levels in a class in this playtest that also has
either of those alternate classes. For example, if you take
levels in arcanist (alternate classes: sorcerer and wizard),
you can’t also take levels in sorcerer or wizard, nor can
you take levels in bloodrager (alternate classes: sorcerer
and barbarian)."

That part is important, because it tells you that you also cannot take levels in another alternate class that has the same base Bloodrager/arcanist = no because both sorcerer father classes.
So taking the ninja and the slayer would also be a no-go.

EDIT: Don't even dare try and cheese the line "from this playtest" because that is rediculous trolling and not appropriate for this forum.
Bending the rules and saying, "well it never said you cant do it from OTHER playtests" is rediculous.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

But it DOES say "from this playtest."

I don't see how you can just ignore that. It is clearly only referring to the classes within the playtest, the classes from the core rulebook, and no others.

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