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In an effort to move the conversation out of the already full war priest conversation and get more into the weeds, I wanted to have a separate thread to discuss what I see as the core mechanic of the class and how to improve it/give it more of a "Class Feature" feel.
Here is my suggestion, please feel free to comment or add your own suggestions:
Step 1. You replace sacred weapon with a simple flat bonus that increases with level, similar to weapon training but only for the Sacred Weapon. You add a feat that allows you to select a sacred weapon other than your Gods favored weapon.
Step 2. You remove the domain/blessing feature entirely and replace it with...
Step 3. You add an ability to add various +1 weapon enhancements that are tied to Deities similarly to how the domains and blessings are tied to deities for rounds per level.
Saranae would get something like flaming, Pharasma would bane (undead), Abadar would get axiomatic, etc...these could be listed under domains or gods and gods would have multiple options, similar to how they are under multiple domains.
Step 4. Removed the bonus feats. In it's place add a list of feats and abilities based on the favored weapon (or taking a feat that allows another sacred weapon) there are listed a weapon groups for that weapon using the fighter weapon groups.
Under that weapon group are bonus feats you can choose from that act like combat mastery from the Ranger class. For example the thrown weapon group would have feats that enhance thrown weapons, and as a special ability perhaps returning (x) times a day. Light blades may have the TWF list from the ranger.
In addition, each group would have special abilities geared toward users of weapons, granted at appropriate levels similar to domain powers.
So lets say you are a Warpriest of Pharasma. You will have Weapon Focus at first level with your favored weapon and instead of a blessing you pick an enhancement you can add for one round a day per level. You pick Bane:Undead and for one round a day your daggers are undead bane.
Rather than getting arbitrary combat bonus feats, you get bonus feats specifically for your weapon group as bonus feats similar to Ranger Combat Feats, including the not needing pre-requisites, so perhaps you are a TWF dagger user or a thrown dagger user, since daggers qualify for both weapon groups.
So now we have a class that will be very different for each god and user, while focused on combat rather than casting.
Again thoughts or suggestions of your own.
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+1
Only suggestion I'm going to make is that I actually REALLY like a lot of the blessing abilities, but dislike a lot of the implementation. I would like to see those weapon enchantments you mentioned added as a PART of revamping blessings to provide more interesting, flavorful options. Just look at the Air blessing: It's a perfect example of the kind of thing they ALL need.
Combine that with style feats and you have someone who is TRULY the master of their favored weapon in most combat situations, which is what the class should be about, boasting unique abilities granted by their divine patrons.
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+1
Only suggestion I'm going to make is that I actually REALLY like a lot of the blessing abilities, but dislike a lot of the implementation. I would like to see those weapon enchantments you mentioned added as a PART of revamping blessings to provide more interesting, flavorful options. Just look at the Air blessing: It's a perfect example of the kind of thing they ALL need.
Combine that with style feats and you have someone who is TRULY the master of their favored weapon in most combat situations, which is what the class should be about, boasting unique abilities granted by their divine patrons.
I think some of the blessing abilities could be moved into the Weapon training group special abilities. I don't think all of the special abilities need to be for the weapon specifically. Some could just be thematic, like giving the hammer group an earthquake effect.
But I also wouldn't be opposed to them being in the enchantment groups, although that would take up more space.
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Change the verbiage of sacred weapon to say that warpriests with no god can choose any martial, instead of any simple, and I'm on board.
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I think it's a great idea moving towards condensing this class, but the problem with moving blessing abilities to Weapon Training groups is that the abilities granted from weapon training would, by nature, need to be generic, which removes some of the uniqueness of each individual Warpriest.
I can see that, but if you place them with the enhancements suddenly you have a page count issue.
Change the verbiage of sacred weapon to say that warpriests with no god can choose any martial, instead of any simple, and I'm on board.If they have to take a feat for a non-simple weapon, I'm ok with that. If not, you are just going to have everyone saying they are a godless war priest.
Well, it's a good thing you don't have to play with everyone else all at once. This would only matter for home games, and I believe in PFS you are required to have patron gods. You can do so in your home games as well, but these classes are supposed to be setting agnostic.
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Well, it's a good thing you don't have to play with everyone else all at once. This would only matter for home games, and I believe in PFS you are required to have patron gods. You can do so in your home games as well, but these classes are supposed to be setting agnostic.Change the verbiage of sacred weapon to say that warpriests with no god can choose any martial, instead of any simple, and I'm on board.If they have to take a feat for a non-simple weapon, I'm ok with that. If not, you are just going to have everyone saying they are a godless war priest.
The class as is only lets you select a simple weapon. Seems reasonable if you want to kick up to martial you take a feat. No different than martial weapon proficiency.
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Nope.
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A warpriest is
proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with
all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (except
tower shields).
So while they are proficient will all martial weapons, they can only choose a simple for a favored? No thanks. This needs to change.
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Nope.
So while they are proficient will all martial weapons, they can only choose a simple for a favored? No thanks. This needs to change.Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A warpriest is
proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with
all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (except
tower shields).
A fighter is proficient in all martial but only gets weapon training for a group and weapon specialization for one with out burning extra feats.
Ahh. See, now that makes sense.
Burning feats is what martials do, so, if I must...
Just allow the Warpriest to use his Wpn Focus Feat on any Simple or Martial weapon they chose and that becomes their favored weapon. I would not allow this for exotic weapons however unless you either burn a feat at character creation to take EWP or you get it from a Race ability for example Dwarves and Dwarven Waraxes
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Just allow the Warpriest to use his Wpn Focus Feat on any Simple or Martial weapon they chose and that becomes their favored weapon. I would not allow this for exotic weapons however unless you either burn a feat at character creation to take EWP or you get it from a Race ability for example Dwarves and Dwarven Waraxes
You do that, and people who are the warriors for a god have no incentive to use the favored weapon of that god.
What about the rest of it?
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What if there were a menu of options - a talent list, basically - that you could choose from to apply to your sacred weapon, to let you use it as intended, but better than most everyone else can?
A few examples to kind of illustrate the idea:
* When wielding your sacred weapon in each hand, you gain the benefits of the Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice feats. You are considered to possess these feats for the purposes of meeting prerequisites for other feats and abilities, but can only use those feats or abilities while wielding your sacred weapon in each hand. (Wielding a sacred double weapon counts as wielding a sacred weapon in each hand for the purposes of this talent.)
* You gain Improved Critical and Critical Focus as bonus feats, but may only apply them to your sacred weapon. You can only choose this talent if your sacred weapon has a critical multiplier of x2.
* You gain Critical Focus as a bonus feat, but may only apply it to your sacred weapon. When you are wielding one of your sacred weapons, its critical multiplier is increased by 1 (to a maximum of x5). You may only choose this talent if your sacred weapon has a base critical multiplier of x3 or higher.
* You gain Improved Trip as a bonus feat, but may only gain the benefits while wielding your sacred weapon. At 8th level, you gain Greater Trip as well, with the same restriction. You may only choose this talent if your sacred weapon has the trip quality.
Not really trying for balance here too hard, just something to get the point across.
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What if there were a menu of options - a talent list, basically - that you could choose from to apply to your sacred weapon, to let you use it as intended, but better than most everyone else can?
A few examples to kind of illustrate the idea:
* When wielding your sacred weapon in each hand, you gain the benefits of the Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice feats. You are considered to possess these feats for the purposes of meeting prerequisites for other feats and abilities, but can only use those feats or abilities while wielding your sacred weapon in each hand. (Wielding a sacred double weapon counts as wielding a sacred weapon in each hand for the purposes of this talent.)
* You gain Improved Critical and Critical Focus as bonus feats, but may only apply them to your sacred weapon. You can only choose this talent if your sacred weapon has a critical multiplier of x2.
* You gain Critical Focus as a bonus feat, but may only apply it to your sacred weapon. When you are wielding one of your sacred weapons, its critical multiplier is increased by 1 (to a maximum of x5). You may only choose this talent if your sacred weapon has a base critical multiplier of x3 or higher.
* You gain Improved Trip as a bonus feat, but may only gain the benefits while wielding your sacred weapon. At 8th level, you gain Greater Trip as well, with the same restriction. You may only choose this talent if your sacred weapon has the trip quality.Not really trying for balance here too hard, just something to get the point across.
This is the kind of stuff that would make sense under the weapon groups.
Heh, I hadn't even noticed you made this thread.
One thing to remember is that the special weapon abilities shouldn't be tied directly to gods, since the rulebook line is setting neutral. If they were tied to domains/blessings, then I think that part of your suggestion would work fine, and potentially be pretty cool. It would require some careful balancing though.
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Heh, I hadn't even noticed you made this thread.
One thing to remember is that the special weapon abilities shouldn't be tied directly to gods, since the rulebook line is setting neutral. If they were tied to domains/blessings, then I think that part of your suggestion would work fine, and potentially be pretty cool. It would require some careful balancing though.
They are tied to weapon groups, not gods.
And if you are a warpriest, you will be worshiping something. If not, simple weapon without a feat.
Heh, I hadn't even noticed you made this thread.
One thing to remember is that the special weapon abilities shouldn't be tied directly to gods, since the rulebook line is setting neutral. If they were tied to domains/blessings, then I think that part of your suggestion would work fine, and potentially be pretty cool. It would require some careful balancing though.
They are tied to weapon groups, not gods.
And if you are a warpriest, you will be worshiping something. If not, simple weapon without a feat.
Right, I missed that they weren't tied to gods.
For what it's worth, my point was that in non-Golarion settings, you will have totally different gods, so you can't tie abilities directly to specific gods.
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Heh, I hadn't even noticed you made this thread.
One thing to remember is that the special weapon abilities shouldn't be tied directly to gods, since the rulebook line is setting neutral. If they were tied to domains/blessings, then I think that part of your suggestion would work fine, and potentially be pretty cool. It would require some careful balancing though.
They are tied to weapon groups, not gods.
And if you are a warpriest, you will be worshiping something. If not, simple weapon without a feat.
Right, I missed that they weren't tied to gods.
For what it's worth, my point was that in non-Golarion settings, you will have totally different gods, so you can't tie abilities directly to specific gods.
Oh I agree. But I think my solution addressed that.
So, for weapons that fall into more than one weapon group, would you just make a decision at first level as to which group's abilities you were focused on?
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THat is what I am telling to you.Flavor?
You do that, and people who are the warriors for a god have no incentive to use the favored weapon of that god.
You spent the other thread saying people are only going to play Cleric's of Gorum.
You can't argue both sides of the same coin.
No Nicos, you are complaining that someone might actually have an advantage if they actually played the flavor of the class rather than just looking for the optimal configuration.
You can't say in one thread that no one will play warpriests of some gods because they will have less powerful weapons and then in another thread say they will play the favored weapons because of flavor.
If you aren't interested in contributing with feedback or solutions, go back to the other thread where everyone just seems to want to complain.
I think the problem here is that you seem to envision all warpriests of the same deity should be pretty much identical and you think that's great flavor. To most of the rest of us, that sounds incredibly boring and not something to seek after.
Since you brought up the other thread: You mentioned that you found the magus dull because it always relies on using a 1h weapon. Don't you realize that the Warpriest concept you've homebrewed here has the exact same problem only it's even more limited?
Just to make sure I have this straight...
You're honestly fine with all warpriests being identical tin soldiers as long as they're worshiping the same deity, and the variety in the class will be exclusively represented by the different deities each warpriest worships?
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Just to make sure I have this straight...
You're honestly fine with all warpriests being identical tin soldiers as long as they're worshiping the same deity, and the variety in the class will be exclusively represented by the different deities each warpriest worships?
Nope.
What I do think is that a Warpriest of Desna with a Starknife should be the best option for a warpriest of Desna, given that is the favored weapon of Desna.
I think if you want to get bonuses to something other than your deities favored weapon, you should be able to if you are willing to spend a feat.
I am excited by the idea of the rarely used starknife getting use thanks to bonuses. I think that concept is much more interesting than a falcion wielding Warpriest of Desna who is no different than a Falcion Wielding Warpriest of Erastil, etc, etc, etc...
I think that giving bonus to deities favored weapons will encourage people to be more likely to use favored weapons, which I think is a wonderful thing that puts flavor first.
But scream out Stormwind, I know it's coming...
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How many different Gods are there?
So now you wnat people to choose their deities based on their favored weapon. The choose wil not be between saranrae, gorum or Abadar and their system of beleives but between scimitar, greatsowrd and crossbows.
I want to build a NG warpriest I envisioned him using a earthbrekar...sorry the character will suck because no favorite weapon.
Why the fluff have to go against the mechanics? why the mechanic have to dictate the fluff?
No I want people to choose their deity based on the concept they want to play and what the deity represents.
I think it is telling that some people put the power before the concept...
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No I want people to choose their deity based on the concept they want to play and what the deity represents.
Great! Then we shouldn't punish them and should allow everyone to do what they love. Taxing them sure isn't gonna' help em' out, eh? Gosh forbid we just not give em' the option.
I think it is telling that some people put the power before the concept...
Here thar be strawman. He's made of hypothetical straw and highly flammable and isn't really anyone here. He's a covered in a bit of mud too.
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I think some people are going to put concept in front of pigeon holing themselves to fit a list compiled (mostly with very little thought as to mechanical balance) over seven years combined with an overly restrictive and pointless class mechanic.
By all means, give characters an option to specialize in their deity's favored weapon - we need more feats like Guided Hand, an archetype like the Weapon Master or Staff Magus would be wonderful! More options for playing the character you want to is great!
But if you're making such an extremely specific and limiting concept the core of the class it'll be passed over by people who want to play something they can't make fit into the tiny flavor niche you're defending so vigorously.
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@Nicos - Again, you can't argue that "people to tend to choose their deities from their favored weapons." and then in the same thread argue that people will select favored weapons for flavor.
My "suggestion" as you call it is the class as written.
My actual suggestion is to assure that any weapon you get is going to be useful, by coming up with things we can give to weapon groups to make them have some level of parity.
I would LOVE to discuss that.
But instead, here we are with you trying to convince me both people only care about mechanics but they will pick a suboptimal weapon for flavor...
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No I want people to choose their deity based on the concept they want to play and what the deity represents.Great! Then we shouldn't punish them and should allow everyone to do what they love. Taxing them sure isn't gonna' help em' out, eh? Gosh forbid we just not give em' the option.
I think it is telling that some people put the power before the concept...Here thar be strawman. He's made of hypothetical straw and highly flammable and isn't really anyone here. He's a covered in a bit of mud too.
Someone might think you aren't being nice, MrSin.
I know that is of paramount importance to you.
Also, I linked to the actual definition of strawman. You might want to look at that, as I do not think it means what you think it means.
Have a wonderful evening. Peace be with you and success in all your endeavors!
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I think some people are going to put concept in front of pigeon holing themselves to fit a list compiled (mostly with very little thought as to mechanical balance) over seven years combined with an overly restrictive and pointless class mechanic.
By all means, give characters an option to specialize in their deity's favored weapon - we need more feats like Guided Hand, an archetype like the Weapon Master or Staff Magus would be wonderful! More options for playing the character you want to is great!
But if you're making such an extremely specific and limiting concept the core of the class it'll be passed over by people who want to play something they can't make fit into the tiny flavor niche you're defending so vigorously.
And people who want to wear metal don't play druids, people who want to cast spells don't play fighters, and people who don't want to worship a god don't play clerics.
Sure we could make the class bland enough for everyone. But why?
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And byt he way, the god favored weapon do not have anything to do with what the deity represent.
True for many gods unfortunately. The favored weapon is a legacy gig. Sure you can tell me why Irori is unarmed strikes and Shelyn has a Glaive, but not sure if you can tell me why Lamashtu has the falchion, Rovagug the greataxe, or Pazuzu has a longsword.
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EDIT: What about my NG eadrthbreaker user? woudl you say an earthbreakr is really more powerfull than a falchion? What if I want to use a morninstar or a bardiche or...?Take a feat. Problem solved.
A tax for my love? I thought you supported me doing what I loved and choosing for flavor and concept. Then you took away all my bonus feats and told me I had to pay a feat to do what I wanted to do. A feat also isn't right in front of you, its something you have to look for.
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Take a feat. Problem solved.EDIT: What about my NG eadrthbreaker user? woudl you say an earthbreakr is really more powerfull than a falchion? What if I want to use a morninstar or a bardiche or...?
Not it is not. I would prefer to play a fighter/cleric thatn a warpriest under this circumtances.
Feat taxes are bad, period.
Then play a fighter/cleric. Problem also solved.
If I want to play a class that has full casting but doesn't pray to get spells or have to follow a deity (or at minimum a philosophy), cleric isn't for me.
If I want to play a class that has full casting but doesn't revere nature, Druid isn't for me.
Feat "tax" is another way of saying "I don't want to actually have to invest to get what I want."
Well...you do. If you want a better option than the one provided by the base, you pay for it.
Or house rule.
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A tax for my love? I thought you supported me doing what I loved and choosing for flavor and concept. Then you took away all my bonus feats and told me I had to pay a feat to do what I wanted to do. A feat also isn't right in front of you, its something you have to look for.EDIT: What about my NG eadrthbreaker user? woudl you say an earthbreakr is really more powerfull than a falchion? What if I want to use a morninstar or a bardiche or...?Take a feat. Problem solved.
Selecting a feat is a burden. Not getting a bonus is a handicap. People don't always agree with me, and call me out when I'm inconsistent.
Oh the oppression...
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Take a feat. Problem solved.EDIT: What about my NG eadrthbreaker user? woudl you say an earthbreakr is really more powerfull than a falchion? What if I want to use a morninstar or a bardiche or...?
This is a patch, at best. The worst thing about it is that it's essentially a tax on people who actually care about flavor. If someone honestly just wants the best weapon they can get, flavor be damned, then they can just choose a god that gives them a weapon they like. If they wanted to "choose their deity based on the concept they want to play and what the deity represents", but that deity's favored weapon doesn't match their concept, then they have to take a feat. I don't mind feat taxes, but this one seems to run counter to your professed preference for flavor.
You continue to assert that those of us who are opposed to the focus on favored weapons are more concerned about mechanics than flavor, that we just want to be able to run around with a falchion regardless of deity. This is, whatever you might say, a straw-man. If the update to the class were to make all weapons statistically identical in the hands of a Warpriest, I would still want this changed.
Now, all that said, I like the idea of focusing on flavor-appropriate weapons. I just think the favored weapons list has some serious issues when it's applied in this context. There are a lot of very flavorful characters that can't be made if you are restricted to one weapon per god.
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It is a patch for a non-existent "problem"
If you want to be a druid, you don't wear metal armor.
If you want to be a wizard/sorcerer you get spell failure if you wear armor.
If you want to be a fighter with an exotic weapon, you take a feat.
And the Warpriest gets a bonus to the favored weapon of their god.
If you want that bonus to apply to something other than the favored weapon of their god, you take a feat.
What I would really like to see in this discussion is ideas for things to give each weapon group to bring the weapons closer to parity so it is a non-issue.
But complaining is easier than contributing I suppose...