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Dragon Ferocity will be unaffected when it gets a rewording to clarify it (it should have been worded as an increase to begin with so people could clearly see its interaction with original style). As far as I, and all the people looking for other exceptions so far, can tell, nothing else is affected except for exactly what was intended to be affected.
Oh good because I think if yet another Style Feat got nerfed I would have exploded.
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Dragon ferocity no longer functions. The other examples with the inquisitor seem to be "Not as intended" even though they are worded with the clear assumption they stack.Just to clarify, from skimming the past page it looks like Dragon Ferocity was nerfed.
Is that correct? I want to know for sure so I know exactly how pissed off I should be.
Dragon Ferocity will not function, until another errata, which, is noted to happen soon.
Apparently, in spite of the Inquisitor class being filled to the brim, with "double dips", none of them were intended to do so, and every single writer, of every single Inquisitor option/class feature, totally didn't intend for any stacking, whatsoever.
I really doubt all these writers were ignorant of all these cases though.
What about Tiger Claws? Doesn't this FAQ mess with it as well?
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Those two were listed earlier as an example, they don't stack.
It sounds like, unless the ability specifically changes the 'type' of bonus granted by the ability modifier (i.e. paladins and their smite adding Cha to AC as a deflection modifier), then they don't stack.
Citation needed.
PS: I think you are correct, but I did not see an example that matched up with this one. I don't care if it does not stack, but now it seems they will need to clarify what the "source" is. By the rules this also seems like stealth errata, which I don't think is a bad term, but it should be noted as such officially. OK, I don't expect for them to say "stealth errata", but sometimes the FAQ is used to change rules so noting it as a "rules change" would be nice.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This "type changes source" thing just does not sit well with me, as nothing prior to this FAQ, even implies such a thing.
Is it in the "unwritten rules"?
It seems to be a "new unwritten rule".
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What about Tiger Claws? Doesn't this FAQ mess with it as well?
Looks like that one seems to have the same wording problem as Dragon Ferocity. I will add it to the list to get a fix.
I find it funny that the chosen option causes multiple abilities not to function as intended instead.Or rather, none of those abilities were intended to work the way you think they were supposed to work.
The FAQ just clarifies how everything was intended to work now.
There was never intended to be any double dipping of stat bonuses.
This I do agree with. It is one of those situations where the rules allows you to do something you are not supposed to be able to do. I just don't like the explanation for why it does not work.
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Those two were listed earlier as an example, they don't stack.
It sounds like, unless the ability specifically changes the 'type' of bonus granted by the ability modifier (i.e. paladins and their smite adding Cha to AC as a deflection modifier), then they don't stack.
Citation needed.
PS: I think you are correct, but I did not see an example that matched up with this one. I don't care if it does not stack, but now it seems they will need to clarify what the "source" is. By the rules this also seems like stealth errata, which I don't think is a bad term, but it should be noted as such officially. OK, I don't expect for them to say "stealth errata", but sometimes the FAQ is used to change rules so noting it as a "rules change" would be nice.
Rules changes, as of late, have been noted with "This will be reflected in future errata". Or at least, we're trying to get better about that. You'll see it in the ACG FAQs. The result of this particular FAQ, however (that ability modifiers don't add in multiple times), was unanimous consensus among the Design Team of how the rules currently work, so it doesn't have that tag.
What about Tiger Claws? Doesn't this FAQ mess with it as well?It does screw with it, along with Horn of the Criosphinx, Perfect Recall, and a number of other feats/abilities.
Horn of the Criosphinx works perfectly out of the box. Perfect Recall specifically says you add it a second time, so specific overrides general and you add it twice. Heading to sleep now. I'll be back later to see if you guys find any more. I'm hoping to tackle the ones that we all find on Monday.
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So, what about abilities, that explicitly state they add a modifier twice?
As above, those are specific overriding general. So like mindchemist's perfect recall, those all add it twice. And ones that say they add double the bonus aren't even specific overriding general, they're multiplying, rather than adding twice.
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Rules changes, as of late, have been noted with "This will be reflected in future errata". Or at least, we're trying to get better about that. You'll see it in the ACG FAQs. The result of this particular FAQ, however (that ability modifiers don't add in multiple times), was unanimous consensus among the Design Team of how the rules currently work, so it doesn't have that tag.Those two were listed earlier as an example, they don't stack.
It sounds like, unless the ability specifically changes the 'type' of bonus granted by the ability modifier (i.e. paladins and their smite adding Cha to AC as a deflection modifier), then they don't stack.
Citation needed.
PS: I think you are correct, but I did not see an example that matched up with this one. I don't care if it does not stack, but now it seems they will need to clarify what the "source" is. By the rules this also seems like stealth errata, which I don't think is a bad term, but it should be noted as such officially. OK, I don't expect for them to say "stealth errata", but sometimes the FAQ is used to change rules so noting it as a "rules change" would be nice.
So how are we supposed to know what a "source" is? I always thought it was a spell/feat/class feature, not the bonus itself. Just to be clear I am not upset, but unless I am reading the FAQ incorrectly I have no idea on how to identify a source. If that will be in another FAQ I will be happy with that answer.
From the way I read the FAQ a source is the ability score, not the feat/spell/etc that grants tells you to use the ability score, or are ability scores an exception to what the designers intend for us to use as sources?
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Also thanks for taking the time to answer questions Mark. <2 thumbs up>
Rules changes, as of late, have been noted with "This will be reflected in future errata". Or at least, we're trying to get better about that. You'll see it in the ACG FAQs. The result of this particular FAQ, however (that ability modifiers don't add in multiple times), was unanimous consensus among the Design Team of how the rules currently work, so it doesn't have that tag.Those two were listed earlier as an example, they don't stack.
It sounds like, unless the ability specifically changes the 'type' of bonus granted by the ability modifier (i.e. paladins and their smite adding Cha to AC as a deflection modifier), then they don't stack.
Citation needed.
PS: I think you are correct, but I did not see an example that matched up with this one. I don't care if it does not stack, but now it seems they will need to clarify what the "source" is. By the rules this also seems like stealth errata, which I don't think is a bad term, but it should be noted as such officially. OK, I don't expect for them to say "stealth errata", but sometimes the FAQ is used to change rules so noting it as a "rules change" would be nice.So how are we supposed to know what a "source" is? I always thought it was a spell/feat/class feature, not the bonus itself. Just to be clear I am not upset, but unless I am reading the FAQ incorrectly I have no idea on how to identify a source. If that will be in another FAQ I will be happy with that answer.
From the way I read the FAQ a source is the ability score, not the feat/spell/etc that grants tells you to use the ability score, or are ability scores an exception to what the designers intend for us to use as sources?
They are all sources of different kinds. As I posted in the other thread (or this one earlier, I can't remember and it's late, sorry) the feat/spell/etc is redirecting you to the ability modifier. So it's like primary and secondary sources for research papers. So while a feat that gives a "+2 bonus" is the primary (and only) source, in the case of a feat that adds your Charisma modifier, the feat is the secondary source and the ability modifier is the primary source. Or for computer science analogy, the feat source recursively calls the ability score source.
Or further alternately, it acts identically to if all untyped ability score bonuses had a type with the name of that ability score (that isn't the case for reasons I learned when I proposed that as the FAQ, but it is effectively equivalent in how to adjudicate it; then again, enough people are confused, we'll see what the others think on Monday about putting up this alternate explanation on the FAQ as well).
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Also thanks for taking the time to answer questions Mark. <2 thumbs up>
Thank you guys for making the FAQ explanation the best it can be by explaining the parts that were confusing to you. Some day down the road, players less experienced than pros like you and blackbloodtroll are going to need to reference this FAQ, potentially with time pressure in the middle of a game, and they all win when you guys help make it easier for them to understand by pointing out what you see (plus checking about whether any rules element was hit by this unintentionally means I can fix those swiftly).
Anyway, good night for real this time!
They are all sources of different kinds. As I posted in the other thread (or this one earlier, I can't remember and it's late, sorry) the feat/spell/etc is redirecting you to the ability modifier. So it's like primary and secondary sources for research papers. So while a feat that gives a "+2 bonus" is the primary (and only) source, in the case of a feat that adds your Charisma modifier, the feat is the secondary source and the ability modifier is the primary source. Or for computer science analogy, the feat source recursively calls the ability score source.Or further alternately, it acts identically to if all untyped ability score bonuses had a type with the name of that ability score (that isn't the case for reasons I learned when I proposed that as the FAQ, but it is effectively equivalent in how to adjudicate it; then again, enough people are confused, we'll see what the others think on Monday about putting up this alternate explanation on the FAQ as well).
I think I get it, but I still expect for others to be confused. I know you are going to sleep so I wont expect an answer until tomorrow.
My interpretation of what you said:
Feats/spells/etc are normally the primary source however if the feat/spell/etc grants you access to an ability modifier that now becomes the primary source. That stops the same abilities such as fury's fall and agile maneuvers from being used together.
PS: I understanding "calling" in computer programming so I get it. I am trying to make it easier to understand in case someone else is having trouble understanding it.
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So, the normal strength to damage dealt with a Shield Bash, does not stack with the damage done by Merciless Rush, when using Shield Slam, or are these considered separate attacks(Bull Rush/Shield Bash), and both damage is applied?
This is a good chance to test my knowledge so I will give you an answer and we will see if Mark agrees with me tomorrow.
The FAQ says " you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier."
Merciless Rush says "... you deal damage equal to your Strength modifier to that target."
A shield bash is a normal attack and the equipment chapter says.. "Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon"
Now going back to the FAQ you can add the modifier/bonus and a number equal to the bonus so these two should stack. Now if Merciless Rush said to add your strength bonus instead of "damage equal to" your strength bonus then they would not stack.
So, the normal strength to damage dealt with a Shield Bash, does not stack with the damage done by Merciless Rush, when using Shield Slam, or are these considered separate attacks(Bull Rush/Shield Bash), and both damage is applied?This is a good chance to test my knowledge so I will give you an answer and we will see if Mark agrees with me tomorrow.
The FAQ says " you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier."
Merciless Rush says "... you deal damage equal to your Strength modifier to that target."
A shield bash is a normal attack and the equipment chapter says.. "Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon"
Now going back to the FAQ you can add the modifier/bonus and a number equal to the bonus so these two should stack. Now if Merciless Rush said to add your strength bonus instead of "damage equal to" your strength bonus then they would not stack.
No, the FAQ considers "<untyped> bonus equal to Strength bonus" the same as Strength bonus. But Merciless Rush is just straight damage, not "a bonus to damage". So DR would apply to it separately to any other damage (such as from a Shield Bash).
I assume you're talking about the Shield Slam/Merciless Rush combo.
I'll add my voice to the chorus that believes typing the Ability bonuses is the more intuitive and elegant solution.
So, the normal strength to damage dealt with a Shield Bash, does not stack with the damage done by Merciless Rush, when using Shield Slam, or are these considered separate attacks(Bull Rush/Shield Bash), and both damage is applied?This is a good chance to test my knowledge so I will give you an answer and we will see if Mark agrees with me tomorrow.
The FAQ says " you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier."
Merciless Rush says "... you deal damage equal to your Strength modifier to that target."
A shield bash is a normal attack and the equipment chapter says.. "Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon"
Now going back to the FAQ you can add the modifier/bonus and a number equal to the bonus so these two should stack. Now if Merciless Rush said to add your strength bonus instead of "damage equal to" your strength bonus then they would not stack.
No, the FAQ considers "<untyped> bonus equal to Strength bonus" the same as Strength bonus. But Merciless Rush is just straight damage, not "a bonus to damage". So DR would apply to it separately to any other damage (such as from a Shield Bash).
I assume you're talking about the Shield Slam/Merciless Rush combo.
I'll add my voice to the chorus that believes typing the Ability bonuses is the more intuitive and elegant solution.
BBT did not ask about DR. He only asked if the two abilities stacks or if he would only get damage from one of them, and Merciless Rush adds damage equal to your strength mod. That is why I quoted since getting a bonus equal to an ability mod is a determination on whether or not something stacks.
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That is why I quoted since getting a bonus equal to an ability mod is a determination on whether or not something stacks.
The FAQ considers an untyped bonus equal to an ability modifier to be the same as adding that ability modifier and prevents these from stacking. If the bonus is typed (such as the paladin's deflection bonus quoted in the FAQ) it stacks in the normal way.
That is why I quoted since getting a bonus equal to an ability mod is a determination on whether or not something stacks.The FAQ considers an untyped bonus equal to an ability modifier to be the same as adding that ability modifier and prevents these from stacking. If the bonus is typed (such as the paladin's deflection bonus quoted in the FAQ) it stacks in the normal way.
I already know that. That is what my last two posts said.
BBT did not ask about DR. He only asked if the two abilities stacks or if he would only get damage from one of them, and Merciless Rush adds damage equal to your strength mod. That is why I quoted since getting a bonus equal to an ability mod is a determination on whether or not something stacks.
Gotcha. But Merciless Rush doesn't add damage. It says "dealing it a number of points of damage equal to your Strength modifier." So it's a discrete bit of damage separate from anything else and therefore not subject to stacking.
BBT did not ask about DR. He only asked if the two abilities stacks or if he would only get damage from one of them, and Merciless Rush adds damage equal to your strength mod. That is why I quoted since getting a bonus equal to an ability mod is a determination on whether or not something stacks.Gotcha. But Merciless Rush doesn't add damage. It says "dealing it a number of points of damage equal to your Strength modifier." So it's a discrete bit of damage separate from anything else and therefore not subject to stacking.
which is just like the FAQ saying "a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier".
A "bonus equal to" and "a bonus equal to" are the same thing.
There is no difference between "dealing it a number of points of damage equal to your Strength modifier" and “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier.", for the purpose of stacking.
Both of them reference the ability score by using equal to, which according to the FAQ stacks with the ability modifier(which can be a penalty or bonus). For weapon damage it calls out the bonus.
So, the normal strength to damage dealt with a Shield Bash, does not stack with the damage done by Merciless Rush, when using Shield Slam, or are these considered separate attacks(Bull Rush/Shield Bash), and both damage is applied?
The bull rush/merciless rush damage is separate from the shield slam damage, there are no stacking issues here.
which is just like the FAQ saying "a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier".
A "bonus equal to" and "a bonus equal to" are the same thing.
There is no difference between "dealing it a number of points of damage equal to your Strength modifier" and “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier.", for the purpose of stacking.
Both of them reference the ability score by using equal to, which according to the FAQ stacks with the ability modifier(which can be a penalty or bonus). For weapon damage it calls out the bonus.
What I'm trying to say is Merciless Rush isn't adding damage to anything, it is just damage. The closest analogue to Shield Slam + Merciless Rush I can think of is Attack + Grab + Constrict. And it looks like you agree with me on that works (granted that is prior to this FAQ).
Or to answer BBT's original question, I believe they are considered separate attacks.
which is just like the FAQ saying "a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier".
A "bonus equal to" and "a bonus equal to" are the same thing.
There is no difference between "dealing it a number of points of damage equal to your Strength modifier" and “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier.", for the purpose of stacking.
Both of them reference the ability score by using equal to, which according to the FAQ stacks with the ability modifier(which can be a penalty or bonus). For weapon damage it calls out the bonus.
What I'm trying to say is Merciless Rush isn't adding damage to anything, it is just damage. The closest analogue to Shield Slam + Merciless Rush I can think of is Attack + Grab + Constrict. And it looks like you agree with me on that works (granted that is prior to this FAQ).
Or to answer BBT's original question, I believe they are considered separate attacks.
ok. :)
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Is this FAQ purely for ability bonuses? Or does it include other referential bonuses as well?
Like say, if I play a daring cavalier, when I use challenge I add my level to damage and if I pick up precise strike I also add my level to damage. Are those considered to be the same source?
And what about orange ioun stones? They add an untyped caster level bonus. If I have multiple ioun stones are they considered to be different sources (different ioun stones) or the same source?
It is clarifying when ability based bonuses don't stack, from what I understand, but the "level based damage" is a good question.
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So if I am playing an oracle/paladin character with the Sidestep Secret and Smite Evil class abilities (see below) does the Dexterity/Charisma replacement to AC and the Charisma/Deflection bonus to AC no longer stack? They appear to have different bonus types, but come from the same "primary" source.
I suspect that, at least in the short term, this FAQ is going to cause a lot more confusion than it clears up.
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So if I am playing an oracle/paladin character with the Sidestep Secret and Smite Evil class abilities (see below) does the Dexterity/Charisma replacement to AC and the Charisma/Deflection bonus to AC no longer stack? They appear to have different bonus types, but come from the same "primary" source.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
I suspect that, at least in the short term, this FAQ is going to cause a lot more confusion than it clears up.
That ones nice and straightforward, it's pretty much called out in the FAQ. As smite evil grants a typed bonus (deflection) = to your charisma it will stack with the oracle abilities that replace dexterity with charisma.
. . .
*headdesk*
That ones nice and straightforward, it's pretty much called out in the FAQ. As smite evil grants a typed bonus (deflection) = to your charisma it will stack with the oracle abilities that replace dexterity with charisma.So if I am playing an oracle/paladin character with the Sidestep Secret and Smite Evil class abilities (see below) does the Dexterity/Charisma replacement to AC and the Charisma/Deflection bonus to AC no longer stack? They appear to have different bonus types, but come from the same "primary" source.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
I suspect that, at least in the short term, this FAQ is going to cause a lot more confusion than it clears up.
This is correct, as in this case it isn't a result of a double-dip, which I will define as using the same modifier type derived from the same ability score to apply to the same statistic. You are simply using your ability score modifier and a deflection bonus that is equal to your ability score modifier, meaning they will stack.
If you were trying to use Divine Grace from the Paladin feature and Divine Protection feat simultaneously (excluding the written Special note that wasn't added until later), then it would not work as they are both the same modifier type (Untyped) derived from the same ability score (Charisma) that applies to the same statistic (Saving Throws).
Is this FAQ purely for ability bonuses? Or does it include other referential bonuses as well?
Like say, if I play a daring cavalier, when I use challenge I add my level to damage and if I pick up precise strike I also add my level to damage. Are those considered to be the same source?
And what about orange ioun stones? They add an untyped caster level bonus. If I have multiple ioun stones are they considered to be different sources (different ioun stones) or the same source?
As it sits, it is purely for ability scores, though I suspect it may extend to class/character level-based subjects. Simultaneously, you must understand that subject is not exactly a valid argument, as the Challenge feature adds equal to Cavalier levels, whereas the Precise Strike adds equal to Swashbuckler levels. Since those are two separate class level statistics and not your character level or the same class, they would stack.
As far as caster level is concerned though, when it comes to Ioun Stones, they don't stack unless otherwise stated, meaning if you had multiple CL-increasing Ioun Stones of the same type (Orange Prism), they won't stack with themselves, since that CL increase is from the same source of Ioun Stone. If they were separate types, they would stack. [Additionally, I don't think the level-based restriction that may come from the FAQ will apply to that statistic, simply because there are several subjects that increase CL which also have restrictions to that CL increase, so it checks itself (Magical Knack, for example).]
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So... a Lore Oracle with the sidestep secret revelation takes the Divine Protection feat.
According to the FAQ he doesn't add charisma to his reflex saves twice, but since Sidestep replaces dexterity with charisma he's potentially losing out on a modifier - with this combination the Sidestep Secret is suddenly penalizing the Reflex save rather than benefiting it.
Could he override Sidestep Secret and add his dexterity modifier to reflex instead of his charisma modifier? By itself Sidestep Secret doesn't offer the option to choose, it simply says that you use charisma instead of dexterity.
So... a Lore Oracle with the sidestep secret revelation takes the Divine Protection feat.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
I am also concerned whether this errata applies to instances of "replace" instead of just "add".
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This "type changes source" thing just does not sit well with me, as nothing prior to this FAQ, even implies such a thing.
Is it in the "unwritten rules"?
NO! there are no unwritten rules in the game that are rules players need to follow. If it's not a written rule it's not a rule
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NO! there are no unwritten rules in the game that are rules players need to follow. If it's not a written rule it's not a ruleThis "type changes source" thing just does not sit well with me, as nothing prior to this FAQ, even implies such a thing.
Is it in the "unwritten rules"?
The "unwritten rules" are indeed not meant for players. They are the guidelines that the developers follow to inform their rule decisions. That is what the PDT is trying to accomplish with this FAQ.
There's another FAQ/errata that I'm going to ignore.
I'll handle it on a case by case basis. But I think there are some abilities that are just not worth it with this ruling.
So... a Lore Oracle with the sidestep secret revelation takes the Divine Protection feat.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
According to the FAQ he doesn't add charisma to his reflex saves twice, but since Sidestep replaces dexterity with charisma he's potentially losing out on a modifier - with this combination the Sidestep Secret is suddenly penalizing the Reflex save rather than benefiting it.
Could he override Sidestep Secret and add his dexterity modifier to reflex instead of his charisma modifier? By itself Sidestep Secret doesn't offer the option to choose, it simply says that you use charisma instead of dexterity.
This was already handled before the FAQ based on Divine Protections wording:
Divine Protection: You gain a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier on all saving throws. If your Charisma modifier is already applied as a bonus on all saving throw (such as from the divine grace class feature), you instead gain a +1 bonus on all saving throws.
Sidestep Secret is also a class feature of the Lore oracle if she chooses that revelation (a benefit of the oracles mystery class feature). Divine protection then adds an additional +1 to reflex saves.
As written, no you may not use your dex instead. Either don't choose that revelation if you intend to take divine protection, or find a different feat than divine protection. (Or if you really really want that +1 reflex, then take them both and know it is a very suboptimal choice).
