Monks and "shields"


Rules Questions

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Exactly.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Remy Balster wrote:
But that is patently wrong.

In all games, the word "like" is used to inherit traits from another object. In this case inheriting the disadvantages of the Heavy Shield.

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
If the ring is not supposed to be treated as a heavy shield, then why mention a heavy shield? It would have been easier to simply state this ring provides a +2 shield bonus.

Absolutely the best point to make on this subject.


But it would seem that it negates every single mechanical disadvantage of a shield, except for monks.

That makes RAI suspect in my book.

And as shown the other day, the Dan Bong gives you a +2 to grapple, but doesn't take away the -4 for not having both hands free. I don't think that was the intent there either.

Silver Crusade

This is another "Shield" Monk AC question...

Does a Monk/Wizard or Monk/Sorcerer that cast 1st level spell "Shield" (which provides a Shield bonus) loss the Wisdom AC bonus?

Shield 1st level Arcane Abjuration (force) Spell...

"Shield creates an invisible shield of force that hovers in front of you. It negates magic missile attacks directed at you. The disk also provides a +4 shield bonus to AC. This bonus applies against incorporeal touch attacks, since it is a force effect. The shield has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance."

Monk: AC Bonus
"When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load."

The text states "when he(or she) carries a shield" . Thus Magical Force effects aren't carried.

Silver Crusade

Related point does an Enlightened Paladin/Wizard, Enlightened Paladin/Sorcerer using same "Shield" lose his/her Confident Defense when using the spell "Shield"?

Confident Defense(Ex)
At 1st level, when wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, an Enlightened paladin adds 1 point of his Charisma bonus (if any) per class level to his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class. If he is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus, he also loses this bonus.

This ability replaces his proficiency with medium armor, heavy armor, and shields.


This ring generates a shield-sized (and shield-shaped) wall of force that stays with the ring and can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield (+2 AC).

Either you are wielding it as a heavy shield, gaining +2AC and taking all the accompanying disadvantages (not using a 2h weapon etc. etc.) or you are not wielding it as a shield and you don't get the +2AC.

You can't gain the +2AC without wielding it as a shield, hence it can't stack with the monk AC bonus.

When you could do would be:
Hit someone with a bastard sword wielded two-handed
Shift the sword-grip to one handed
Activate the ring as a free action for +2AC until your next turn when you deactivate the ring as a free action and attack someone with your bastard sword two-handed... etc .etc.

Note that this is different from the shield spell which does not require you to wield it in order to gain the shield bonus.
Shield creates an invisible shield of force that hovers in front of you. It negates magic missile attacks directed at you. The disk also provides a +4 shield bonus to AC.


i sense a strong necromantic aura here


Brother Nameless "無名哥" wrote:
Does a Monk/Wizard or Monk/Sorcerer that cast 1st level spell "Shield" (which provides a Shield bonus) loss the Wisdom AC bonus?

They keep their Wis bonus to AC. Carrying a shield and getting a shield bonus to AC are two different things.

Cases like the ring are more ambiguous, but this doesn't affect a spell like Shield.


John Murdock wrote:
i sense a strong necromantic aura here

What is going on with all these thread necros?


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Well I did see a lich in another thread... but actually he might of been a lychee.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Well I did see a lich in another thread... but actually he might of been a lychee.

You don't know me! GAH!

*flounces upstairs; listens to The Smiths; sketches bats on tombstones*


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SheepishEidolon wrote:
Brother Nameless "無名哥" wrote:
Does a Monk/Wizard or Monk/Sorcerer that cast 1st level spell "Shield" (which provides a Shield bonus) loss the Wisdom AC bonus?

They keep their Wis bonus to AC. Carrying a shield and getting a shield bonus to AC are two different things.

Cases like the ring are more ambiguous, but this doesn't affect a spell like Shield.

I'm kinda laughing at the carrying part. So if I throw a throwing shield at a monk with snatch arrows then does he lose his bonus for carrying a shield now?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Brother Nameless "無名哥" wrote:
Enlightened Paladin

Shield is a spell not a shield, so it doesn't interact.

Enlightened Paladin isn't a Paizo class.


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James Risner wrote:
Brother Nameless "無名哥" wrote:
Enlightened Paladin

Enlightened Paladin isn't a Paizo class.

I assume they're talking about the archetype from Inner Sea Combat.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Wu Nakitu wrote:
I assume they're talking about the archetype from Inner Sea Combat.

There is no Paizo archetype named Enlightened Paladin. There is a renamed one on d20pfsrd, but people don't know that unless they know that. So unless the OP wishes to create confusion, they should use the proper names.


Personally, I would just take the Unhindering Shield feat.

It will allow so much more than just a +2 bonus to my monk's AC.


There are many things in PF that are "used as" or "treated as" or "wielded as" a different thing. In general, these phrases mean that the thing in question uses all the rules of the thing it's treated as.

In the case of a ring of Force Shield, the ring is "wielded as" a heavy shield. This means it uses all the same rules as a heavy shield with the exceptions noted in the ring's description:

It can be used to shield bash
It can be modified by feats like Shield Focus and Weapon Focus
A non-proficient character takes a -0 penalty

When in use, it is used like a heavy shield with an ACP and ASF of 0.


Quantum Steve wrote:
There are many things in PF that are "used as" or "treated as" or "wielded as" a different thing. In general, these phrases mean that the thing in question uses all the rules of the thing it's treated as.

Not true.

At any time the "treated as" statement works to the character's advantage, the arguments stating that "treated as" =/= "is" result in threads far longer than this one.


Talonhawke wrote:
SheepishEidolon wrote:
Brother Nameless "無名哥" wrote:
Does a Monk/Wizard or Monk/Sorcerer that cast 1st level spell "Shield" (which provides a Shield bonus) loss the Wisdom AC bonus?

They keep their Wis bonus to AC. Carrying a shield and getting a shield bonus to AC are two different things.

Cases like the ring are more ambiguous, but this doesn't affect a spell like Shield.

I'm kinda laughing at the carrying part. So if I throw a throwing shield at a monk with snatch arrows then does he lose his bonus for carrying a shield now?

Just place a shield in the monks pack beforehand.


Monk and shield seems a mutually exclusive concept!!


Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Not true.

At any time the "treated as" statement works to the character's advantage, the arguments stating that "treated as" =/= "is" result in threads far longer than this one.

Yeah I have to agree here if this was about getting a bonus if the item was a shield instead of a penalty you would see numerous post about them not being the same thing.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
There are many things in PF that are "used as" or "treated as" or "wielded as" a different thing. In general, these phrases mean that the thing in question uses all the rules of the thing it's treated as.

Not true.

At any time the "treated as" statement works to the character's advantage, the arguments stating that "treated as" =/= "is" result in threads far longer than this one.

Sometimes, yes, but I often see players who want to use "treated as" for purposes other than intended.

For example, a ring of Force Shield is only wielded as a heavy shield when it's actually being used. The rest of the time it's not a heavy shield, so it can't be enchanted as a shield, for instance.


Quantum Steve wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
There are many things in PF that are "used as" or "treated as" or "wielded as" a different thing. In general, these phrases mean that the thing in question uses all the rules of the thing it's treated as.

Not true.

At any time the "treated as" statement works to the character's advantage, the arguments stating that "treated as" =/= "is" result in threads far longer than this one.

Sometimes, yes, but I often see players who want to use "treated as" for purposes other than intended.

For example, a ring of Force Shield is only wielded as a heavy shield when it's actually being used. The rest of the time it's not a heavy shield, so it can't be enchanted as a shield, for instance.

And it is also only treated as a heavy shield for monks. Everything else that makes it a heavy shield is not a heavy shield. It has no weight. No ACP. Does not require proficiency. Yet somehow, it screws up a Monk's AC bonus.


Komoda wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
There are many things in PF that are "used as" or "treated as" or "wielded as" a different thing. In general, these phrases mean that the thing in question uses all the rules of the thing it's treated as.

Not true.

At any time the "treated as" statement works to the character's advantage, the arguments stating that "treated as" =/= "is" result in threads far longer than this one.

Sometimes, yes, but I often see players who want to use "treated as" for purposes other than intended.

For example, a ring of Force Shield is only wielded as a heavy shield when it's actually being used. The rest of the time it's not a heavy shield, so it can't be enchanted as a shield, for instance.

And it is also only treated as a heavy shield for monks. Everything else that makes it a heavy shield is not a heavy shield. It has no weight. No ACP. Does not require proficiency. Yet somehow, it screws up a Monk's AC bonus.

Of course it would affect the Monk. Why wouldn't it?

Ring of Force Shield wrote:
This ring generates a shield-sized (and shield-shaped) wall of force that stays with the ring and can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield (+2 AC). This special creation has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance since it is weightless and encumbrance-free. It can be activated and deactivated at will as a free action.
Monk wrote:
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

It's the same way for a Ecclesitheurge Cleric.

Ecclesitheurge’s Vow wrote:
At 1st level, an ecclesitheurge makes a vow to his deity to be protected solely by his faith, not by armor or shields. An ecclesitheurge who wears armor or uses a shield is unable to use his blessing of the faithful ability, use cleric domain powers, or cast cleric spells.

It's wielded as a Heavy Sheild. It's plainly telling you that to get the Sheild bonus you have to use it as a Shield.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
If the ring is not supposed to be treated as a heavy shield, then why mention a heavy shield? It would have been easier to simply state this ring provides a +2 shield bonus.

Legacy wording. It was worded this way in 3.5 and they did not change it.


Tangentially related question:

If a monk dips into kineticist and picks up the water elemental defense talent, does he lose his monk abilities by using said defense talent to bolster his AC?


doc roc wrote:
Monk and shield seems a mutually exclusive concept!!

It's really not. All you need is the feat investment for a monk to use a shield while retaining his AC bonuses.


Ventnor wrote:

Tangentially related question:

If a monk dips into kineticist and picks up the water elemental defense talent, does he lose his monk abilities by using said defense talent to bolster his AC?

No. Having a shield bonus and wielding a shield are two different things. At no point (that I saw, at least) in the talent does it indicate that it is considered to be holding a shield.


Ventnor wrote:

Tangentially related question:

If a monk dips into kineticist and picks up the water elemental defense talent, does he lose his monk abilities by using said defense talent to bolster his AC?

As a shield, most likely not. The character does not equip or wield the shield, it floats around him.

As armor, debatable. If you state is actually is armor, as opposed to simply functioning as armor, the first question I ask is, is it light, medium, or heavy armor. All worn armor is one of the three and some monk archetypes can flurry while wearing some types, but not others.


8.500 gp for a +2 AC shield bonus with no penalties? A fair trade imo.


Brain_in_a_Jar wrote:
Komoda wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
There are many things in PF that are "used as" or "treated as" or "wielded as" a different thing. In general, these phrases mean that the thing in question uses all the rules of the thing it's treated as.

Not true.

At any time the "treated as" statement works to the character's advantage, the arguments stating that "treated as" =/= "is" result in threads far longer than this one.

Sometimes, yes, but I often see players who want to use "treated as" for purposes other than intended.

For example, a ring of Force Shield is only wielded as a heavy shield when it's actually being used. The rest of the time it's not a heavy shield, so it can't be enchanted as a shield, for instance.

And it is also only treated as a heavy shield for monks. Everything else that makes it a heavy shield is not a heavy shield. It has no weight. No ACP. Does not require proficiency. Yet somehow, it screws up a Monk's AC bonus.

Of course it would affect the Monk. Why wouldn't it?

Ring of Force Shield wrote:
This ring generates a shield-sized (and shield-shaped) wall of force that stays with the ring and can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield (+2 AC). This special creation has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance since it is weightless and encumbrance-free. It can be activated and deactivated at will as a free action.
Monk wrote:
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

It's the same way for a Ecclesitheurge Cleric.

Ecclesitheurge’s Vow wrote:
At 1st level, an ecclesitheurge makes a vow to his deity to be protected solely by his faith, not by armor or shields. An ecclesitheurge who wears armor or uses a shield is unable to use his blessing of the faithful ability, use cleric domain
...

Because while it is "wielded as one" it doesn't "weigh as one", or "armor check penalty as one", or "require proficiency as one". Those are a whole lot of things that happen when "wielding as one" that aren't happening. Is he using a shield or is he using a ring?

I don't know anything about that cleric. Not knowing the rest of the quote, I wonder if there is any effect since the cleric can turn off the shield as a free action. Does turning it off negate all of the penalties of "wielding" it? As in, are all of the lost effects only possible on the clerics turn? If so, we are back to only the monk being penalized because every other detriment of the shield can be ignored.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Personally, I would just take the Unhindering Shield feat.

It will allow so much more than just a +2 bonus to my monk's AC.

Wait, what? You would rather spend 3 feats and wait till 9th level to use a buckler?


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You still need to be proficient, otherwise you take the nonproficency penalty just like everyone else. You suffer the ACP on attack rolls and additional skill uses. It just happens that the ACP is zero. The same as a mithral shield, darkwood shield, or masterwork buckler. It is almost like shields with 0 ACP are abundantly common and shield proficiency is a joke.


Komoda wrote:
Because while it is "wielded as one" it doesn't "weigh as one", or "armor check penalty as one", or "require proficiency as one". Those are a whole lot of things that happen when "wielding as one" that aren't happening.

Actually, you've named them all (except the proficiency one, that not a thing). That's not a lot of things.


Komoda wrote:
Brain_in_a_Jar wrote:
Komoda wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
There are many things in PF that are "used as" or "treated as" or "wielded as" a different thing. In general, these phrases mean that the thing in question uses all the rules of the thing it's treated as.

Not true.

At any time the "treated as" statement works to the character's advantage, the arguments stating that "treated as" =/= "is" result in threads far longer than this one.

Sometimes, yes, but I often see players who want to use "treated as" for purposes other than intended.

For example, a ring of Force Shield is only wielded as a heavy shield when it's actually being used. The rest of the time it's not a heavy shield, so it can't be enchanted as a shield, for instance.

And it is also only treated as a heavy shield for monks. Everything else that makes it a heavy shield is not a heavy shield. It has no weight. No ACP. Does not require proficiency. Yet somehow, it screws up a Monk's AC bonus.

Of course it would affect the Monk. Why wouldn't it?

Ring of Force Shield wrote:
This ring generates a shield-sized (and shield-shaped) wall of force that stays with the ring and can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield (+2 AC). This special creation has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance since it is weightless and encumbrance-free. It can be activated and deactivated at will as a free action.
Monk wrote:
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

It's the same way for a Ecclesitheurge Cleric.

Ecclesitheurge’s Vow wrote:
At 1st level, an ecclesitheurge makes a vow to his deity to be protected solely by his faith, not by armor or shields. An ecclesitheurge who wears armor or uses a shield is unable to use his blessing of the
...

"wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield" is all that matters.

It could go on to saw the shield has no acp, doesn't require proficiency, is made of cheese, doesn't like being in the dark, and is afraid of bears.

Nothing after the wielded part even matters to the Monk or abilities like it.

If you use a shield you don't get the Monk stuff. The Ring says you can wield it as a heavy shield. End of discussion.


Brain_in_a_Jar wrote:
Komoda wrote:
Brain_in_a_Jar wrote:
Komoda wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
There are many things in PF that are "used as" or "treated as" or "wielded as" a different thing. In general, these phrases mean that the thing in question uses all the rules of the thing it's treated as.

Not true.

At any time the "treated as" statement works to the character's advantage, the arguments stating that "treated as" =/= "is" result in threads far longer than this one.

Sometimes, yes, but I often see players who want to use "treated as" for purposes other than intended.

For example, a ring of Force Shield is only wielded as a heavy shield when it's actually being used. The rest of the time it's not a heavy shield, so it can't be enchanted as a shield, for instance.

And it is also only treated as a heavy shield for monks. Everything else that makes it a heavy shield is not a heavy shield. It has no weight. No ACP. Does not require proficiency. Yet somehow, it screws up a Monk's AC bonus.

Of course it would affect the Monk. Why wouldn't it?

Ring of Force Shield wrote:
This ring generates a shield-sized (and shield-shaped) wall of force that stays with the ring and can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield (+2 AC). This special creation has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance since it is weightless and encumbrance-free. It can be activated and deactivated at will as a free action.
Monk wrote:
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

It's the same way for a Ecclesitheurge Cleric.

Ecclesitheurge’s Vow wrote:
At 1st level, an ecclesitheurge makes a vow to his deity to be protected solely by his faith, not by armor or shields. An ecclesitheurge who wears armor or uses a shield is unable to use
...

So, it has the hardness and hit points of a shield?


Komoda wrote:
So, it has the hardness and hit points of a shield?

Why does it's hardness or hit points matter? That doesn't change anything. It still "can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield".

The only part that matters to a Monk or similar abilities like it is that the shield the ring creates is "wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield". You literally wield it as a heavy shield to use it.

But as a side note it won't have the hardness and hit points of a shield from the "Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points" since it's not made of wood or steel.

The Ring of Force Shield generates a shield sized/shaped wall of force. Which can be wielded as if it were a heavy shield.

So it's hardness and hit points would be determined via the spell wall of force.

So based on how a wall of force works. The shield would have Hardness 30 and 180 hit points, since the ring is caster level 9th.


toastedamphibian wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Personally, I would just take the Unhindering Shield feat.

It will allow so much more than just a +2 bonus to my monk's AC.

Wait, what? You would rather spend 3 feats and wait till 9th level to use a buckler?

For the eventual +7 AC and additional properties like Righteous?

Yes, I would. A shield is one of the cheapest ways to increase AC and there are quite a few nice properties the monk has difficulty accessing by other means.

Though for a monk I would be tempted to dip one level into fighter. If done on an odd numbered level, you can pick up all three feats in one shot.


Might be easier to make a Brawler at that point.


Brain_in_a_Jar wrote:

"wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield" is all that matters.

It could go on to saw the shield has no acp, doesn't require proficiency, is made of cheese, doesn't like being in the dark, and is afraid of bears.

Nothing after the wielded part even matters to the Monk or abilities like it.

If you use a shield you don't get the Monk stuff. The Ring says you can wield it as a heavy shield. End of discussion.

So, any character using a Force Shield can benefit from feats and abilities that require the character to be wielding a shield, for example:

  • Saving Shield
  • Shield Focus
  • Ray Shield
  • Equipment tricks
  • Sacrificial Shield


toastedamphibian wrote:
Might be easier to make a Brawler at that point.

Personal preference, there are several classes normally bared from using shield that have Unhindering Shield builds available for people who want a little extra defense/offense.


So a Key Cloak would work.

Incidentally, anyone who argues that a m9nk can use a shield ring because it is "wielded as but isn't", still dont bother.

Get a cloak shield. It costs 1000gp, is "wielded as" a wooden light shield with no ACP, and can be enchanted as if it is a shield.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:


So, any character using a Force Shield can benefit from feats and abilities that require the character to be wielding a shield, for example:
  • Saving Shield
  • Shield Focus
  • Ray Shield
  • Equipment tricks
  • Sacrificial Shield

I would assume so, unless the ability requires removing the shield, such as throwing it.

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