| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I doubt they have time to, and I don't think this should be a priority by a very very very very long shot, but I would REALLY like to know when the philosophy about class names changed.
I've seen both James Jacobs and Erik Mona talk about wanting class names that come from real world things.
And it is part of the whole reason our fighter-arcanist is called the awfully generic, inaccurate, and causes-arguments-over-pronunciation "magus." (Zoroastrians and Hermetics are doubtless especially annoyed.) The other reason we have "maggot" I mean "magus" is because Erik Mona made a big deal about classes not having names that are portmanteaus or compound words, such as "spellblade" or "hexwarrior" or "warmage" and asked us all to wrack our brains for real-world mage and warrior names that might suit. I think the guy who actually came up with "magus" didn't even get any credit save in the thread where he suggested it, but I could be wrong.
(To skip away from my hyperbole: honestly, "magus" isn't really that bad, but I think a class name like "warmage" or "spellblade" or whatever would have been more illustrative of what it's actually supposed to be, and more appropriately fantastical.)
Then we end up not only with "battlerager" (blech) but also "warpriest" (and why the HELL is that okay but warmage isn't?).
It may seem a small thing but as I'm rather obsessive about words and names it rather bugs me and I really want to know when and where that thinking reversed.
As for better names, just to put them somewhere:
Arcanist: Magus--oh, crap. (See, that or mage would have actually been the best name for that class). Warlock. Thaumaturge. Occultist. Magician. Magic-User. (J/K)
Bloodrager: Tempest. Berserker. (""[Odin’s] men went without their mailcoats and were mad as hounds or wolves, bit their shields…they slew men, but neither fire nor iron had effect upon them. This is called 'going berserk.[2]'") Mengamuk.
Brawler: This'd be fine except it's also an archetype and that invites confusion. Pugilist. Wrestler. Boxer. Pankratist.
Hunter: Fine. Generic, but fine, and I don't think there's an archetype with the name (bounty hunter, but not just hunter).
Investigator: Fine, but also an archetype name. Unfortunately, a lot of best equivalents are also archetype names. Best I can come up with off the top of my head that isn't already an archetype: agent.
Shaman: Fine.
Skald: Probably fine.
Slayer: I think personally they should come clean and call it the Stalker, since it's very obviously a Pathfinderization of that AD&D kit. But that one is also fine.
Swashbuckler: Archetype name again. How about.... fencer, swordsman (since it really is mostly going to be about swords), daredevil, rover, knave. There's another one at the tip of my tongue but I can't think of it...
Warpriest: Templar, chaplain, zealot, sentinel
Been discussed, apparently the good folks over at Paizos like the name and wont budge. I think it terrible.
I totally agree. It's very a B-movie fantasy name. "Fear, they name is... BLOODRAGER!"
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I fully agree with DeathQuaker.
When JJ kept mentioning the class names must have real world equivalents, I thought it was a brilliant idea! I always hated the 3.5 classes like "hexblade", "factotum" and "dragon shaman". Really crappy names.
BUT THEN, Paizo decides to change they're mind. Bloodrager and Warpriest are the worst.
My favs from DQ's list
Bloodrager: Berserker. Yes, VERY barbarian-esk but so is arcanist and wizard. Bloodrager is crap.
Warpriest: Templar. Evokes the EXACT right image. Warpriest then begins the bloat of Warlord, Warlock, Warmage, Warwar etc that 4e succumbed to. Blech.
The others have alright or GREAT names. The best is Shaman, Swashbuckler and Slayer.
I hear Paizo won't budge on the names which is a real shame.
Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As the "no-portmanteau" guy, I guess I should chime in here.
The most important part is that Jason and I don't always agree on everything. I wanted to call the magus the warlock, but we argued about it for a couple of hours and he won the argument, mostly because there was a popular D&D class with that name that worked differently, and in the end we agreed it would cause too much confusion to call it that.
The second most important part is that "warpriest" doesn't really ring my "BS Bell" the same way that "warmage" does. I can't quite explain it, but it just doesn't bug me that much. Sorry.
The third part is I don't like "bloodrager" either, probably for the same reasons you don't. That said, it's pretty obvious what it is mechanically from the name, and thematically it does tie into magic blood, which is something we don't really have in the real world (that I know of). So I let it slip by.
Maybe rather than just saying that we dont like it we should start a list of alternative names? its simple enough to just rename a class for our own games and i fully intend to have warpriest be a Templar for instance. so maybe we should list what WE call them, since despite hating the name I'm loving the class itself to death.
|
Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
|
Probably not, honestly, because we've done at least one "swashbuckler" archetype, and yet that's what that class really should be called, because that's what it is.
Naming it "panacher" or something stupid that means nothing, or even something like "buccaneer" that sort of works but summons incorrect or too precise concepts is also out (plus, I'm sure we've done an archetype called a buccaneer, anyway).
It's not a great situation, but having a little confusion between a class and an archetype is a better situation than having a dumb name for a base class.
IMHO, anyway.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The funniest thing about the swashbuckler is that it's not only already an archetype but also the name of a 3.5 class that worked totally differently than it does. Not to mention, there's a handful of 3rd party swashbucklers floating around out there...a thoroughly overused name, despite being arguably used at its best here in its alternate class form.
A number of the new classes have new names that strike me as not quite ideal for one reason or another, but bloodrager is the only one I completely hate. There may not be any real world analogue, but there has to be a better name.
|
Arcanist is new.
Bloodrager is new (and at least they did not call it Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator)
Brawler is a Fighter archetype.
We have some Hunter archetypes such as the Paladin Divine Hunter.
Investigator is a Rogue archetype.
(Animal) Shaman is a Druid archetype.
Savage Skald is a Bard archetype.
Skulking Slayer is a Rogue archetype.
Swashbuckler is a Rogue archetype.
Warpriest is new.
New names which are NOT portmanteau = Arcanist. Well, there are only so many nouns in the dictionary anyway.
Also I remember the time when people argued at great length against the Oracle name for the class.
To no avail.
And we got used to it.
The same will happen here.
I fear however that the archetypes that are too close to an ACG class is both name and concept (such as the Brawler, the Investigator, the Savage Skald and the Swashbuckler) will likely fade into obscurity.
BTW : Buccaneer is the name of 2 archetypes (a Gunslinger and a Bard)
|
As the "no-portmanteau" guy, I guess I should chime in here.
The most important part is that Jason and I don't always agree on everything. I wanted to call the magus the warlock, but we argued about it for a couple of hours and he won the argument, mostly because there was a popular D&D class with that name that worked differently, and in the end we agreed it would cause too much confusion to call it that.
The second most important part is that "warpriest" doesn't really ring my "BS Bell" the same way that "warmage" does. I can't quite explain it, but it just doesn't bug me that much. Sorry.
The third part is I don't like "bloodrager" either, probably for the same reasons you don't. That said, it's pretty obvious what it is mechanically from the name, and thematically it does tie into magic blood, which is something we don't really have in the real world (that I know of). So I let it slip by.
One of the issues I have with the name bloodrager, is the class seems to have little to do with blood. Bloodrage is just rage, it's exactly the same as the barbarian class ability, so why add blood to it. Bloodcasting just allows you to cast spells while raging, it has nothing to do with blood either. The only connection to blood is in the bloodline feats & powers, and in this case blood is used as a substitute for the word heritage (is in your families bloodline). You could even substitute the word heritage when it come to the bloodline powers and abilities (heritage powers, heritage feats, heritage spells), it all works. Now lets try it with bloodrage, heritagerage (???), nope dosn't work, Bloodrager = Heritagerager (What!) Of course I can just rename the class, but wouldn't Conqueror, Murderer, Vanquisher (Maybe), Reaver, Mauler, Berserker all fit if we just used different term then blood to describe a class that has little do do with blood. Heck You could just use heritage for the sorcerer influenced abilities, since they're not the same abilities anyway.
Now if the class actually had something to do with blood, at least it would fit. Ok, I'm done now.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While I like "Berserker" best instead of "Bloodrager" (of which I, too, am not a fan), I think "Tempest" sounds like a name that might evoke more supernatural images as a raging caster should.
"Templar" would be way cooler than "Warpriest." Way cooler.
To me, the Swashbuckler is all about Inigo from Princess Bride. The only other thing they really called him though was "wizard," and that's taken. Personally, "swashbuckler" sounds more pirate-y than I wish it did, but I have no better suggestion.
|
The third part is I don't like "bloodrager" either, probably for the same reasons you don't. That said, it's pretty obvious what it is mechanically from the name, and thematically it does tie into magic blood, which is something we don't really have in the real world (that I know of). So I let it slip by.
Actuallty, at least in the portuguese language, the name THAUMATURGIST, means blood mage don't is ? I would guess thaumaturgist evokes a more schoolary atmosphere that bloodrager, but at least it's a pretty estabilished name.
Why Crusader wasn't a good name for Warpriest ? (It's already in the game tradition from 2E).
I liked all the other names very much, congratulations.
I think it should be called Bloodline Disciple.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A number of the new classes have new names that strike me as not quite ideal for one reason or another, but bloodrager is the only one I completely hate. There may not be any real world analogue, but there has to be a better name
Let's hear it. :)
FWIW, the best real world analogue IS berserker. The rage they put themselves into was described often in essentially supernatural terms, as noted in my post above.
The berserk rage has also been described as a trance you put yourself into to give yourself power, so maybe that could inspire some concepts, even if we tend to think of as trances as a calm thing.
The berserk rage has also been described as a trance you put yourself into to give yourself power, so maybe that could inspire some concepts, even if we tend to think of as trances as a calm thing.
Professor X seems to agree; he says that "...true focus lies somewhere between rage and serenity."
And who wants to argue with Professor X?
I'll second berserker instead of bloodrager and templar instead of warpriest.
|
|
I just want to chime in to say that, while I don't dig on Bloodrager, none of the alternatives suggested have struck me as evoking magic. Yes Bersarks were described as being supernatural, but the average gamer is not going to pick up on that when they see that Class named Berserker.
Templar sounds good, but Warpriest does not bother me.
Heh. I doubt Paizo would go for it, but I like ragemage. :)
I'd go for The Loon Rager but that's got as much chance of taking off as a chocolate teapot.
Einherjar seems like a pretty good name, but might be better for a sort of paladin barbarian hybrid.
If memory serves me, I believe the bloodrager name was suggested by a participant at the Gen con rules seminar, and immediately seized by the rules team. Blame him. :-)
Personally like the name. Very evocative.
Oh, yeah. I think you are right. I like the name too. I think it does what it says, which is the point of a name.
|
If memory serves me, I believe the bloodrager name was suggested by a participant at the Gen con rules seminar, and immediately seized by the rules team. Blame him. :-)
Personally like the name. Very evocative.
Oh, yeah. I think you are right. I like the name too. I think it does what it says, which is the point of a name.
Yep, thought so. My Useless Fact Magnet ability strikes again. I can remember things like this but can't remember anyone's birthday. 《sigh》
If memory serves me, I believe the bloodrager name was suggested by a participant at the Gen con rules seminar, and immediately seized by the rules team. Blame him. :-)
Personally like the name. Very evocative.
Oh, yeah. I think you are right. I like the name too. I think it does what it says, which is the point of a name.
That doesn't mean its a good name though. For example, lets say the Wizard had the name "Magic Man" instead. It tells us what the class does, but its not a good name.
However, I will admit trying to find a replacement name is hard. You could go with Berserker, but that might cause people to confuse it with the Barbarian. Maybe Animist or Primalist.
Moved thread to General Discussion.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That doesn't mean its a good name though. For example, lets say the Wizard had the name "Magic Man" instead. It tells us what the class does, but its not a good name.
Well if you consider that the origin of the word wizard means someone who is wise, and the origin of magician is a someone who does magic, both of those things are variations of "magic" man, without the sexist language.
Just because we don't hear the component parts because we have multiple ways in English to construct such names (some seeming more awkward or jarring to the ears than others, other so archaic that they just seem natural), it doesn't mean that those names were constructed with the simple sensibility of it does what it says.
That doesn't mean its a good name though. For example, lets say the Wizard had the name "Magic Man" instead. It tells us what the class does, but its not a good name.Well if you consider that the origin of the word wizard means someone who is wise, and the origin of magician is a someone who does magic, both of those things are variations of "magic" man, without the sexist language.
Just because we don't hear the component parts because we have multiple ways in English to construct such names (some seeming more awkward or jarring to the ears than others, other so archaic that they just seem natural), it doesn't mean that those names were constructed with the simple sensibility of it does what it says.
my problem with bloodrager is the same as zombie ninjas, the class really has nothing to do with blood at all, it has to do with heritage, which doesn't really come through in the name. so from where im standing its name is half descriptive and half not.
Edit: also and this is much less of a problem than war priest it sounds very game-y, i know it probably wasn't but part of it feels like its designed to sound so awesome... i don't know it just sounds like it belongs on a metal album cover far more than in a game that takes itself more seriously (sometimes)
rant over
the class really has nothing to do with blood at all, it has to do with heritage, which doesn't really come through in the name. so from where im standing its name is half descriptive and half not.
I thought the "blood" in the class name was blood as in heritage, like "bloodline", "blood will tell", and so forth.
Bloodrager does sound and feel like a D&D 4e class name, but it is evocative. Berserker doesn't sound like an arcane spellcaster, nor does tempest. I can't think of anything better.
Warpriest, though, I hate. As a two word class name (war priest), it would be okay, except I think it would be the only two word class name in Pathfinder. Shoving the words together into a clumsy portmanteau is ridiculously annoying to me, for some reason. I think I will pronounce it "warp-ri-est" in protest. ;)
Maybe it is because there are better options for it. "Templar" is a perfect class name for a fighter-cleric hybrid.
|
|
If memory serves me, I believe the bloodrager name was suggested by a participant at the Gen con rules seminar, and immediately seized by the rules team. Blame him. :-)
Personally like the name. Very evocative.
Oh, yeah. I think you are right. I like the name too. I think it does what it says, which is the point of a name.
I, for one, get it completely and I have zero hope of the name changing (see the Oracle). But Erik Mona did ask for alternate ideas ;-)
I personally have no problem with either bloodrager or warpriest, although templar wouldn't have been a bad name either. Um, maybe scourge as an alt for bloodrager, or ravager, both sound kinda "savage/barbaric" but also have a touch of.... something else
in short bloodrager- scourge/ravager
warpriest- another vote for templar, and late idea here, valiant
remember please that class names do NOT have to be what the word means in the real world, barbarian actually originally meant someone who wasn't from greece, and monks clearly do not have superpowers. Cleric is also something of a misnomer meaning something more along the line of a secretary
I have one to say on this...
Bloodrager is a ridiculous name, and they could have been called something like "The Savage Sorcerer" or "The War Caster" or "The Rage Mage" "The Battle Caster" or something else along those lines.
Warlock.
Warlock.
I actually like the idea of calling it a Warlock. While it probably clashes with some people's concept of the Warlock, its an interesting fit and sounds better than Bloodrager.
Warlock.
+1
...and it's distinct enough from the 3.5 Warlock to not cause IP problems.
Warlock.
Hmmmm. Warlock has a lot of baggage in the history of RPGs and the history of this word that this guy really does not fit. I'm not sure this is a good name for this fellow. I'm happy to hear more opinions on the matter, though.
It fits as well as it did for a Warlock PC that wasn't driven by evil forces and was a good person...
Doesn't invalidate the name for the class itself.
It just stuck out in my mind as a person who used a "tainted" bloodline to fuel himself. Whether eldritch blasts or with devastating melee attacks, doesn't really matter...
Thanks, though, Stephen!