What niche is the Warpriest attempting to fill?

[Wiggz]

On a cursory glance, it seems to me that the design team got the idea for 'hybrid' classes in their mind, found some niches that suited the concept well and then kind of forced the concept on the others, just to round out the tree.

There are some interesting and fun new options out there certainly, but at the end of the day the entire idea of the advanced hybrid classes just adds more clutter to the rules in my opinion. Summoners, Gunslingers, Witches, etc. - there was a real place for those guys, but these new classes just feel like more 3PP options (which we rarely if ever use anyway).

[Vastlyapparent]

Personally, I look at the warpriest and see the perfect vehicle for a party buffer/debuffer. Someone who can fight up front and nudge the fight in the parties favor, and provide some healing as needed.

These are my suggestions:

- Keep them at 3/4 BAB and spellcasting

- Give them access to certain buff spells earlier then normal (similar to summoners and haste)

- Allow them to spontaneously cast certain buff spells in the way cleric spontaneously cast cure/inflict; spells like divine favor, righteous might

- Give them an ability to cast personal buff spells as a swift action

- Give them a singular resource to key most/all of their limited use abilities from, I nominate channel energy

- Make blessings 1st level power act like an aura that buffs/debuffs allies/enemies, possibly keyed off channeling

- Weapon Focus can be any weapon they are proficient with, deities favored weapons are automatically a weapon focus

- Certain abilities receive a bonus if used with deities favored weapon

- Make them a little less MAD, key channel energy off something other then CHA

Being able to buff as a swift would solve the issue that plagues most melee oriented clerics, allowing the warpriest to show off. Also making it an area based buffer/debuffer puts it in a role similar to a bard, but with a more divine and martial focus.

This is the direction I'd like to see it go at least, less weaker cleric, more support/jack of all trades with a martial/front-line focus.

[Frederic]

In theory, gestalt or multiclass dabblers in many arts seem cool to play and would be in solo adventuring. The problem is in party play when roles get muddy and Jack of all trades just cant contribute significantly. I see this a lot.
On some level the cliche archetypes provide some direction for the mechanics which will work harmoniously with other characters. When players ignore that too much it can weaken a party. This can be fine when players are skilled enough to bolster character weaknesses with every selection of skill and feat. Not fine for Newbs or for players whose esoteric character concept leads down a tangent unsupported by mechanics.

[Unklbuck]

Well then:
1 - Full BAB
2 - D10 Hit Die
3 - Eliminate Channeling altogether
4 - Warpriest levels count as Fighter for feats
5 - Change Bonus 1st level feat to 2nd to eliminate 1 level dips

[Helaman]

Amen Brother Unklbuck... though I'd prefer to kill the spells, I can live with that.

[AndIMustMask]

brawlers already count ans fighters and monks for feats, i'd be surprised if they didnt extend this courtesy to the other hybrids.

[Michael Warren 719]

I mentioned this is a different post but I'll do it here too. . . .
-D10 HD
-3/4 BAB
-Keep the weapon and armor buff abilities
but give them Light and medium armor only same weapon proficiency
-reduce the channeling (honestly this is a DPS class not a healing class)
- Give them their own spell list that draws from the Cleric spell list but only goes to "5th" lvl spells (much like a duskblade).
- give them quick cast self/party buffs via a divine pool or some such thing
- Lastly this class needs to be looked at like a divine version of the Warmage from 3.5 that gives it its own little nitch to fill as it's not as effective as a paladin it certainly can't tank as well and it isn't as proficient a a caster as it's full caster counterparts more DPS less tank (cleric pali) and more in your face less stealth and skill (inquisitor)

[AndIMustMask]

as it stands, i could see a neat option for evil warpriests as more melee-focused necromancers (less melee, but earlier spell access than a(n anti)paladin of the same occupation, so he can start the necromancing early).

[Cory Stafford 29]

If this class had something like spell combat but maybe just for personal buffs, I think that should make it different enough from paladins, clerics, and inquisitors to justify it's existence. Right now, it doesn't have much reason to exist. You are better off playing a paladin for a straight up divine tank/damage dealer, an inquisitor for a 3/4 bab 6 spell level damage dealer, or a cleric/oracle for a divine spellcaster. Let it be the true battle cleric that can buff and fight at the same time.

[AndIMustMask]

Cory Stafford 29 wrote:

If this class had something like spell combat but maybe just for personal buffs, I think that should make it different enough from paladins, clerics, and inquisitors to justify it's existence. Right now, it doesn't have much reason to exist. You are better off playing a paladin for a straight up divine tank/damage dealer, an inquisitor for a 3/4 bab 6 spell level damage dealer, or a cleric/oracle for a divine spellcaster. Let it be the true battle cleric that can buff and fight at the same time.

we lack a divine magus anyway, so this might be an apt target for such treatment (after all, the magus is a wizard/fighter, so a cleric/fighter could be the other side of the coin.)

[vonFiedler]

Honestly I didn't see the point of Warpriest at first either. There's definitely a good point to be made for Battle Clerics already being a very crowded trope what with Paladins, Inquisitors, Battle Oracles, and well... Clerics as is.

But as I was rewriting Second Darkness and giving everything in the underdark an Advanced Class (gives them a foreign feel), I realized that I like Blessings waaaaaay more than I like Domains. Sure Domains give bonus spells and in that way they are more optimized, but in terms of flavor I've found myself crawling through domains and subdomains when making npcs and just feeling really bleh about it all. So the more demon lords that certain characters worshipped, the more Warpriests I wanted to add in. Which was tricky cause there isn't much room for Shamans as is in Second Darkness.

[Joyd]

AndIMustMask wrote:

brawlers already count ans fighters and monks for feats, i'd be surprised if they didnt extend this courtesy to the other hybrids.

I think that they might be hesitant to straight-up commit to this because I think that access to those feats is supposed to be one of the perks of going straight fighter, something that's generally not the world's most appealing proposition. Of course, most of the actual feats that require you to have fighter levels are either pretty replaceable or are tossed around pretty liberally regardless (I'm looking at you, Disruptive), but I can definitely see a world where they don't want to give out blanket access to fighter-required feats too often.

[thewhiteone]

I like the idea of a Warpriest, and it suits the way several of my friends play their clerics. However, this is a Cleric/Fighter/Paladin, not a Cleric/Fighter.

My idea:
Drop the Sacred Weapon & Armor (getting the paladin out of here)
Give full BAB & d10HD
Give access to Weapon Spec with deity's weapon.
Allow the warpriest to cast a spell on him/herself as a swift action whenever they confirm a critical hit on an enemy. To avoid giving the larger threat ranges all the love: x3 weapons the caster level is raised by +1, and x4 weapons by +2.

[Zenogu]

If the blessings were good enough and spread throughout many levels, I would be ok going spell-less with a warpriest.

Channeling pure awesome straight from the deity

Not to chime in with a copy/paste of spell combat, but it'd be neat to consider something similar for a warpriest with spells. Maybe personal/cure spells and status removals. Also they might need early access to certain spells like what VA stated

[Psyren]

I think it should be "Fighter -2" or "Fighter -3" for feat qualification personally. After all, the Magus doesn't count as a straight fighter either, there's a reduction there.

I don't think they need full BAB. Let the buffs cover that and let the 1/4 casters (Paladins/Rangers/Bloodragers) have their fun. But they definitely need action economy help so that they can either cast and attack in the same round, or have a better chance of starting each fight buffed. (Not Spell Combat though, something more unique.)

[Zenogu]

Well, the book hasn't been printed yet. All 10 of the classes will get some sort of unique twist that truly set them aside from their parent classes.

There's a special place for fighty-clerics in my heart, which is why I'm my gaze is fixed on the warpriest.

[Less Lawful, More Good]

I don't think the warpriest shouldn't have to wait till lvl20 to treat their level as their bab when using their deity's favored weapon. It feels like it could be similar to the 4e paladin at leat in theme. A martial champion of a specific god rather than good in general. Maybe their casting could be reworked to more powerful when casting spells within their god's domains to go with weapon specific bab. Rather than the normal "high bab, low casting, low bab high casting but never both" convention, the warpriest could have high both within then restrictions of its god's domains, but low with everthing outside.

[Michael Warren 719]

To give this class its own feel is really should stay away from being like a magus. It needs its own spell list that make it a blaster caster with some fighter mixed in then it doesn't intrude on the inquisitor or the magus.

[Atarlost]

There're only two pieces of unclaimed territory for god botherers: 1/2 BAB pure caster and less constrained Paladin.

I'd therefore like to see full BAB, 4 level casting using the union of the paladin and antipaladin lists (and any law/chaos spells that were left off of them because in spite of being in corner alignments they lean towards good and evil), Cleric saves, weapon training, and probably lay-on-hands for survivability. Maybe domains or inquisitions if there's room.

If there's enough room for both Cavalier and Fighter to exist as mundane martials there's room for another full BAB god botherer without looking like an (anti)Paladin even when he happens to be in the LG or CE alignments, much less when in any other alignment.

[Thebethia]

Atarlost wrote:

There're only two pieces of unclaimed territory for god botherers: 1/2 BAB pure caster and less constrained Paladin.

I'd therefore like to see full BAB, 4 level casting using the union of the paladin and antipaladin lists (and any law/chaos spells that were left off of them because in spite of being in corner alignments they lean towards good and evil), Cleric saves, weapon training, and probably lay-on-hands for survivability. Maybe domains or inquisitions if there's room.

If there's enough room for both Cavalier and Fighter to exist as mundane martials there's room for another full BAB god botherer without looking like an (anti)Paladin even when he happens to be in the LG or CE alignments, much less when in any other alignment.

I whole heartedly agree.

I'd rather see the non war priest class, since cleric is already a war priest, and we have no class to fit the robed priest archetype. But if we're stuck with another warrior oriented priest, then give us the paladin for all the religions that are not LG. (LG religions aren't the only one's with holy knights are they? I never understood that alignment restriction)

[Danubus]

I don't know why but I see this class as a ret paly from WoW (forgive me).

What it needs is Full BAB. D10 hit dice.
Keep them in Heavy Armor.
Let this class use Fighter Feats.

Have them cast auras like: Aura to give back 1 hp per round to all group members in their auras area. Aura lasts till turned off or switched by Warpriest. HPs given back increase after certain levels hit by warpriest.

Aura to increase defense of all members of party within aura area till turned off or switched. Increase in Defense given as certain levels hit by warpriest.

Aura to increase either a Saving throw or to give Spell resistance to entire party till turned off or switched. Increases in SV or SR as warpriest hits certain levels.

Take away channeling. We are not healers we are DPS/off tanks. The only way I can see keeping channeling is use it for Damage only. If you keep it up the damage from 1d6 per every so many levels. Or have the channeled energy go to warpriests weapon as a swift action once per day increase in damage. Think massive burst of damage.

Allow the warpriest to use buff on any weapon instead of Deity's only weapon. Increase the amount of the buff. Take away allowing Warpriests to add different types of buffs to the weapon. Make it just a straight +dmg increase.

Take away the Sacred Armor buff. If we get Auras this could replace it.

Blessings could go away because they are rather weak/worthless. Auras replace them anyway.

We should be a viable off tank in the group. We should not be a healer. The Auras are a suitable way to help the party while we still stand at front and help DPS.

Also, the main stats for the warpriest are difficult to maintain. STR and CON should be main stats. WIS increase could help DMG increase of burst dmg maybe. What is a problem is putting any points into CHA for intimidating npcs. Something should be done here with needing CHA.

I know I probably sound way off base and seems like I want the moon, but the class as it is just doesn't work. It would also be cool to see this class work as a better Anti paladin since Pathfinder's Anti Paladin is horrible. (for those worshiping evil deities)

[Peter Stewart]

Just chiming in to say that I think the best place to fit these guys in, with regard to a nitch between paladin, inquisitor, oracle, and cleric, is to build them around channel energy with the ability to apply group buffs / protections / status healing when they channel. At higher levels they could even do so as a swift action. There's plenty of room for a cleric that plays a bit more like a bard, but not a whole lot of extra room right now around the 'divine warrior' archtype, which has four classes already competing for the same position.

I'd drop the Sacred armor / weapon, leave spellcasting as is, and keep BAB. I'd probably leave the bonus feats to let them remain stouter in melee, and allow channel energy at low levels to do things like provide energy resistance, the effects of lesser restoration, or additional healing. As it went up in levels I'd let it apply some powerful buffs like freedom of movement and death ward. I'd let them gradually reduce the action needed for channel energy from standard -> move -> swift.

Fits with the warpriest image of a cleric leading from the front lines, waving his holy symbol as he smashes enemies to pieces and inspires everyone with him. It fits in beside the bard as a great 5th party member that can pitch in everywhere and makes everyone better, while allowing channel energy to do some things that it has otherwise never been able to do.

But that's just my thought. Right now this class is lost - it needs a major redesign and re-imagining to find itself.

[Malthule]

I am in agreement almost 100% with the OP on how to "break apart" and "glue" this class together.

I can't emphasize enough that this class feels like spell casting was forced upon it. I think spells makes this class bloated and clunky. Remove the spells and I think this class now gains the wiggle room it needs to be tweaked into primarily a martial warrior surging with divine energy.

OMG this class BEGS to be the best channel energy class in the game! The cleric can have his 9 levels of spells, domains and strong channeling ability, but please please make the Warpriest (this beautiful yet broken class) to be something truly special.

I would love to see The Warpriests channeling ability become the "backbone" of this class.

Some ideas ... (preferably all of them)

1) Full BAB

1) Allow the Warpriest channels per day to come from Con not Cha

2) Allow the Warpriest to gain channels back in combat. (Maybe on crits)

3) Allow a Warpriest to gain BOTH standard and variant channeling.

4) Allow only one blessing at 1st level but allow the blessings to do the following things ...

A) Give special abilities like presently (as swift or move actions)
B) Give 2-3 weapon choices the Warpriest can gain weapon focus in.
C) Give access to variant channeling in addition to normal channeling.
D) Perfectly ok to make the blessings skewed (some more powerful than others) but balance them by allowing some blessings to gain bonus channels per day to the Warpriest (maybe +0 minimum, +2 maximum)

5) Reduce the number of feats gained but allow them to be combat or channeling feats

6) Remove spellcasting but give them quick channel feat at 5th or 7th

7) Skills Points 4 per level.

This advanced class could be soooo cool to play.

[cuatroespada]

i like...

-full BAB (and thus d10 HP)
-no spells, but swift action channeling
-blessings grant abilities similar to what they do now, but also grant variant channeling abilities that can buff your allies, and damage or debuff your enemies.
-broadening of sacred weapon's applicability (not necessarily through widening of the focused weapon options, but that would work)
-special bonuses for using the favored weapon of your deity (probably by weapon groups for compatibility)

adjust bonus feats and whatnot accordingly.

[Kryzbyn]

Niche...

This should be a more-fighty-but-not-as-fighty-as-a-paladin-cleric-that-self-buffs-and-heals -and-can-back-up-heal-the-party-if-needed niche.

[Raith Shadar]

I'd rather see them turn this into a holy warrior class that allows more alignments than the paladin. At the moment the only holy warrior is the paladin and antipaladin, two polar opposites with alignment requirements that only fit a handful of gods. Be nice to have a class that covered the holy warrior aspect for every deity.

War priest can be made from the regular cleric.

A generic holy warrior is a class niche that hasn't been filled.

[Less Lawful, More Good]

I think the full bab/full casting balance can be reached by giving them the lower bab by default but having a triggered ability that lets them treat their hd as their bab for x minutes.

[Alceste008]

I would like the class to cover those not so holy warriors of Thor who smash things with their hammers in Thor's name and power without spending multiple rounds buffing themselves. Then proceed to drink and wench long into the night afterwards.

[Arae Garven]

Alceste008 wrote:

I would like the class to cover those not so holy warriors of Thor who smash things with their hammers in Thor's name and power without spending multiple rounds buffing themselves. Then proceed to drink and wench long into the night afterwards.

Don't you just want a barbarian? Priesthood can be RP'ed, you know.