stealth mechanics clarification please?


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Goblin Squad Member

hi,
since the blog post covers several topics, I moved this aside.
Can we get some clarifications on the stealth mechanics, please?

As I understand it:
-You will be equally invisible to allies.
-Being spotted does not break stealth.
-Being targeted (but not attacked) does not break stealth.
-Stealth can be entered any time not engaged in combat, even in plain sight of foes. (The blog says "run away and enter stealth mode". Though hiding in plain sight is unlikely to fool anyone).
-"unaware" in the description simply means 'not targeting you'.

-I further assume "maximum stealth" and "maximum perception" are comparable scales so that specialized characters of same power level will have roughly 50% distance.

stealth section of the blog:

One way to get Sneak Attack is to keep targets unaware of you, and the Stealth skill can help with this. Whenever you're in Stealth stance (your typical crouched, sneaky walk), the distance at which other players can see and target you is based on a comparison of your Stealth total and their Perception total. This ratio scales from 90% of the normal distances (for minimum Stealth vs. maximum Perception) to 10% of the normal distances (for maximum Stealth vs. minimum Perception), with equally matched characters resulting in a 50% reduction of sighting and targeting distances.

We expect these distances to be moderated by the server: the system doesn't even inform your client that there's someone around until you can see them, and attacks won't work if the server knows they're too far away for you to target. This means that the system should be resistant to client hacking. On the client side, we do expect to apply a translucency effect to a stealthed character when they're between their visible and targetable ranges, so if you're paying attention you might see the Rogue before flipping through targets happens to select him but it won't be an automatic thing.

Stealth breaks when you begin attacking, and then individuals further away might understand why your target was suddenly freaking out. But by that point, you've likely gotten off a few solid hits and can run away and enter stealth mode again, should you so desire

Goblin Squad Member

For my part, I'm not sure I read the "even in plain sight of foes" the same as you, because "run away and enter stealth mode again" covers a lot of territory. I'd expect, at the very least, that any foe you're hiding in plain sight of will need to be engaged in combat--with someone other than you--for you to succeed.

Goblinworks Game Designer

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randomwalker wrote:

hi,

since the blog post covers several topics, I moved this aside.
Can we get some clarifications on the stealth mechanics, please?

As I understand it:
-You will be equally invisible to allies.

Most likely, though there might be an override for people you're actually in a party with. It's likely going to be hard for us to differentiate "ally" from "PC the system thinks should be friendly but I actually want to kill" reliably in all cases, so we may err on not making assumptions that you want friendlies to be treated as allies.

Quote:
-Being spotted does not break stealth.

Correct.

Quote:
-Being targeted (but not attacked) does not break stealth.

Correct.

You didn't list it, but being attacked does not break Stealth if you don't attack back. However, there are attack effects that reduce Stealth or temporarily disable it, and if you're a character with very high Perception, it might be worth your while to take those attacks to try to make Stealthed characters easier for your party to notice.

Quote:
-Stealth can be entered any time not engaged in combat, even in plain sight of foes. (The blog says "run away and enter stealth mode". Though hiding in plain sight is unlikely to fool anyone).

Uncertain at this juncture (that is yes you can enter it when out of combat, but you might also be able to enter it when in combat in certain situations). The crucial element is that Stealth stance is not a stance from which you can make attacks; as soon as you try to make an attack, you'll go into a normal combat stance (and "combat stance" should be understood to be different from "in combat"). We need to work through all the permutations on exactly when you can reenter Stealth vs. how long you'll stay in combat after you stop making and taking attacks.

Quote:
-"unaware" in the description simply means 'not targeting you'.

Right. Another way to keep targets unaware of you is to get your friends to attack them and just wander up unstealthed when they're not paying attention (which is more like flanking).

Quote:
-I further assume "maximum stealth" and "maximum perception" are comparable scales so that specialized characters of same power level will have roughly 50% distance.

Yes. They're both skills, so both have a max of 300 skill total, and the skill total is used in the calculations.


I think you forgot to ask the most crucial question, so without further ado:

How far away are character models rendered normally?

100 yards? 150? 200? In all cases, I think it's fair to say that stealth will be useless.

Goblin Squad Member

I really like stealth as defined here.

Goblin Squad Member

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@Qallz, I fail to see how a mechanic that lets you see the enemy and gauge their strength before they can see you would be useless in a sandbox PvP game. On the contrary, that sounds very powerful to me. Getting to decide exactly who you fight and when is a powerful tool in a game like this.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:

[lots of answers]

Fantastic! Clear answers and excellent response time.

Quote:

You didn't list it, but being attacked does not break Stealth if you don't attack back.

...
you might also be able to enter [stealth] when in combat in certain situations).

Interesting stuff, particularly for ranged combat or for simply trying to escape (from police, bandits, witnesses or a battlefield).

Quallz, I agree that is a vital question, but that value can be balanced as we go. But a smuggler just wants to see the bandits before they see him.


I don't think people understand how completely useless stealth is as defined by that blog post. I could explain it of course, but then again, I'm feeling apathetic at the moment.

@randomwalker

It's Qallz. And yes, hopefully they'll change it to not suck.

Goblin Squad Member

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Qallz wrote:

I don't think people understand how completely useless stealth is as defined by that blog post. I could explain it of course, but then again, I'm feeling apathetic at the moment.

@randomwalker

It's Qallz. And yes, hopefully they'll change it to not suck.

Don't train it then. I am sure plenty of folks will appreciate being able to get halfway to an archer, wizard, or other character that operates best at a distance. As it stands, stealth is VERY useful at high levels.

Goblin Squad Member

Will stealth mechanics work with archery?

Goblin Squad Member

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Lifedragn wrote:


I apologize if I came off condescending. My statement was not meant to convey "Don't train it because it sucks" it was meant to convey "it doesn't such just because it does not match some expectation you may have had." In my opinion and apparently in the opinion of many others, this is a very well done approach to stealth. Please enlighten us as to what you desire out of a stealth mechanic?

Are you expecting an Automatic First Strike? Or special powerful abilities only usable from stealth such as in WoW?

Some games have spoiled rogue players into confusing stealth with at-will invisibility.

Goblin Squad Member

Qallz wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Qallz wrote:
Anyone who thinks stealth is useful in PFO needs to reread that blog post.

Your logic is literally irrefutable.

Glad somebody noticed.

so.. Qallz (got it right this time): is perception useful or useless then?

Stealth sux -> no stealthers -> ppl stop training perception -> stealth useful??

Stealth is (only) about being noticable and targetable at a distance, and has nothing to do with sneak attacking (this sure isn't WoW stealth!). Is that enough to make it suck?

Areks: simply shoot (thus breaking stealth) and re-stealth. Unless they respond quickly (global cooldown) you may have time to restealth - but expect them to pay more attention next time. Will sneak attack work with archery: no idea.
I would expect rangers to train both stealth and perception, like in pnp.


OK, fine, I'll clarify since people obviously want to know what I was talking about. In the post Stephen (or whoever wrote that part, think it was Stephen) said that it would be a percentage of the NORMAL distance.

This means that if you have MAXED out stealth, vs. some level 1 newb with no Perception, they'll STILL be able to see you at 10% of normal distance.

So, let's assume in normal distance, objects render from a football field away (100 yards) seems pretty reasonable. That means that if you're level 20 and have maxed out stealth, some complete newbie WILL STILL be able to see you from 10 yards away (10% of normal distance). Remember, this is a level 20 Rogue vs. a level 1 with no Perception whatsoever.

So if someone has equal Perception, they'll see you from 50 yards away. If they have HALF your Stealth skill in Perception, they'll see you from 25 yards away. We're talking 75 feet. So, if someone just gets half of your stealth skill with their Perception, they'll have a whopping 75 feet in which they can see you (rendering stealth basically completely useless).

These numbers again are based on the idea that "normal" distance renders at 100 yards away, most likely it's more than that. If it's 200 yards for example, someone who's got no Perception skill trained will still see you from 60 feet away (if you're level 20 and maxed out on Stealth).
So, case in point, people will be able to see stealthers from so far away, and with so little necessary Perception, that stealth will be useless unless it's dramatically changed.

Goblin Squad Member

Qallz wrote:


This means that if you have MAXED out stealth, vs. some level 1 newb with no Perception, they'll STILL be able to see you at 10% of normal distance.

Did they specify somewhere that their measurements are in increments of 10%? What is the value of a maxed out skill? I ask because when I consider your example as described (assuming max skill 100), I calculate the maxed out guy getting to within 1 yard (1%), or arm/dagger reach...and that is in broad daylight, no cover, flat ground. Remember also, that is only where one begins being "see-able", there will probably be variations on that due to the use of semi transparency.

Other than that, i like the way your example plays out. I am all for requiring to use cover and slow movement to reduce the ability of others to perceive your semi-transparent crouched character.

Project Manager

Removed a post and replies quoting it. Please revisit the messageboard rules.

Goblin Squad Member

Qallz wrote:


These numbers again are based on the idea that "normal" distance renders at 100 yards away, most likely it's more than that. If it's 200 yards for example, someone who's got no Perception skill trained will still see you from 60 feet away (if you're level 20 and maxed out on Stealth).
So, case in point, people will be able to see stealthers from so far away, and with so little necessary Perception, that stealth will be useless unless it's dramatically changed.

He's got a point. I think what's missing is that the rogue will have pounce abilities at 25 feet and under and the math on Perception v.s Stealth might not be so cut and dry.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Qallz wrote:

OK, fine, I'll clarify since people obviously want to know what I was talking about. In the post Stephen (or whoever wrote that part, think it was Stephen) said that it would be a percentage of the NORMAL distance.

This means that if you have MAXED out stealth, vs. some level 1 newb with no Perception, they'll STILL be able to see you at 10% of normal distance.

So, let's assume in normal distance, objects render from a football field away (100 yards) seems pretty reasonable. That means that if you're level 20 and have maxed out stealth, some complete newbie WILL STILL be able to see you from 10 yards away (10% of normal distance). Remember, this is a level 20 Rogue vs. a level 1 with no Perception whatsoever.

So if someone has equal Perception, they'll see you from 50 yards away. If they have HALF your Stealth skill in Perception, they'll see you from 25 yards away. We're talking 75 feet. So, if someone just gets half of your stealth skill with their Perception, they'll have a whopping 75 feet in which they can see you (rendering stealth basically completely useless).

These numbers again are based on the idea that "normal" distance renders at 100 yards away, most likely it's more than that. If it's 200 yards for example, someone who's got no Perception skill trained will still see you from 60 feet away (if you're level 20 and maxed out on Stealth).
So, case in point, people will be able to see stealthers from so far away, and with so little necessary Perception, that stealth will be useless unless it's dramatically changed.

Try the numbers again: Assume that there's a ranged attack which is useful at 80% of the default sight distance. At even stealth/perception, you avoid 3/8=32.5% of the total exposure to that ranged attack as you close. At maximum stealth/perception, you eliminate 7/8 or 87.5% of your normal exposure to that ranged attack. When you also account for the lag between when you leave the area where you cannot be targeted and when your opponent has targeted and attacked you (a fixed distance once you leave stealth, or no time at all if you aren't stealthy), stealth becomes the counter ability to many ranged attacks.

If there are bow abilities which counter stealth, then stealthy characters still dominate over arcane ranged characters, but ranger bow characters counter that.

And that's not even getting into cases where not being observed is a primary goal- such as when setting an ambush.

I agree that it's not a skill that everyone should train. But it IS a skill that some characters should train, and "some optimal characters will have this, and some won't" is a good enough working definition of 'balanced' for me.


@ KitNyx: Yes, it says that at maxed out stealth, and minimum perception, they'll be able to see people at 10% of normal distance. At maxed out perception with no stealth, 90%, and with equal stealth and perception 50%. Stealth is pretty much useless at any of these distance, even 10%, because again, that's probably around 30 feet away or more.


@Decius Yea it might work OK for a bow-wielder with a VERY high stealth. But what about people who need to get really up close and personal? I'd prefer a slower movement speed and much better stealth.

Please reference Dark Age for how to do stealth proper.

Goblin Squad Member

Qallz wrote:
@ KitNyx: Yes, it says that at maxed out stealth, and minimum perception, they'll be able to see people at 10% of normal distance. At maxed out perception with no stealth, 90%, and with equal stealth and perception 50%. Stealth is pretty much useless at any of these distance, even 10%, because again, that's probably around 30 feet away or more.

Ah, sorry...I totally missed that, I guess I had assumed those numbers where just generic illustration using decimal for easy illustration and not immutable canon to be used to define the level of defunct for the plan. As I countered, simply adding another digit (raising max skill level for stealth and perception to 100 as opposed to 10) changes the conditions in your illustration dramatically.

Goblin Squad Member

Maybe the trick is to use the stealth to avoid the attacks until your target is tied up with your fighter friend, or maybe you have to move behind your target.


Urman wrote:
Maybe the trick is to use the stealth to avoid the attacks until your target is tied up with your fighter friend, or maybe you have to move behind your target.

It's hard to get behind someone who can see you from 75 feet away with a slight turn of their head, assuming this person has little-no points in Perception...

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Qallz wrote:

@Decius Yea it might work OK for a bow-wielder with a VERY high stealth. But what about people who need to get really up close and personal? I'd prefer a slower movement speed and much better stealth.

Please reference Dark Age for how to do stealth proper.

Well, stealth doesn't do anything useful against people who already need to get up close to hurt you. It's not supposed to be useful in every situation, and it seems like fighters will dominate rogues, based on fighter's use of opportunity and their skills which counter evade abilities.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Qallz wrote:
Urman wrote:
Maybe the trick is to use the stealth to avoid the attacks until your target is tied up with your fighter friend, or maybe you have to move behind your target.
It's hard to get behind someone who can see you from 75 feet away with a slight turn of their head, assuming this person has little-no points in Perception...

If they are dividing their attention to look FOR you, you don't need to attack to be effective.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

In tabletop, the Rogue IS the weakest class, and it looks like they will also be weak in the same ways here. They are capable of putting out massive damage with sneak attacks, but they are much less survivable than fighters in melee. I have a feeling that mastering the rogue playstyle in PFO is going to involve becoming very comfortable with using distractions, stealth, and movement tricks to only strike when you can get off a sneak attack and then run away when counter-attacked, then rinse and repeat. Any attempt to stand still and duke it out with a fighter without using those tricks will likely get you killed.

By contrast, the fighter will enjoy always on bonuses to damage that won't be picky on weather an opponent is paying attention to you or not, and will generally be more survivable without having to employ constant guerrilla warfare.

Since DPS usually tends to win out against burst damage, and I don't think even the most powerful sneak attack will be able to one-shot a player, I think most min-maxers will be playing a fighter role, and not even bother with stealth.

Goblin Squad Member

Imbicatus wrote:
... I think most min-maxers will be playing a fighter role, and not even bother with stealth.

I will be extremely pleased if the devs are able to balance the Roles so that those most commonly chosen in PFO are the same as those most commonly represented in the Lore.

Ditto Races.


So basically what people are saying now is: OK, now that you've pointed it out, we can agree that stealth sucks, BUT THAT'S OK!

Nope.

Goblin Squad Member

Qallz wrote:
So basically what people are saying now is: OK, now that you've pointed it out, we can agree that stealth sucks, BUT THAT'S OK!

Who besides you is saying this?

Goblin Squad Member

Three possibilities:

1. He's saying it because he realizes how ridiculously good stealth is and he's trying to scare people into not taking it

2. He's saying it because he's going to be playing a stealthy character and wants it to be even more ridiculously powerful than it already will be.

3. He's just plain trolling.

Goblin Squad Member

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Or, and just wait for this, he has read the description and honestly believes that, by what we have been told, it feels weak. Unfortunately we can't actually tell how good it will be until we get one more piece of information. The current stealth description is that it reduces your current sight range by a percentage of your total sight range, down to a minimum of 10%.

If the current sight range is 200yards, that means that fighting a completely useless starting character (someone who hasn't had the chance to train perception) they can get within 20yards. That isn't that close. And that is the best case scenario. That is plenty of time for the enemy to react and start running away. As the potential sight range increases, or your target becomes more competent (because I can promise you that most people will pump perception, because people hate stealthers) it will become even worse. 200yards isn't that far in the game engine. And 100yards (equally skilled stealth and perception) is more than far enough for the defender to react.

Edit: Removed the snark. Sorry, it's late.


Andius wrote:

Three possibilities:

1. He's saying it because he realizes how ridiculously good stealth is and he's trying to scare people into not taking it

2. He's saying it because he's going to be playing a stealthy character and wants it to be even more ridiculously powerful than it already will be.

3. He's just plain trolling.

Sorry, I don't want to offend the great Emporer Andius and his massive Empire of 7 people. Please forgive me great one.

And yea, Morbis hit the nail on the head. Anyone who actually reads the damn description will see how ridiculously gimp and useless it is. Paying attention just isn't a skill that most people IRL have.

Goblin Squad Member

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I realize that any mechanic that does not work well, or well enough, will be adjusted until it does. Actually numbers are probably placeholders (at best) at this time.

That is a good thing to keep in mind for everybody.

Goblin Squad Member

Sneak attacks with a ranged weapon can be made from 30 feet away. No class except rogues rely on sneak attacks and even rogues don't need to be in stealth to use sneak attack. So divorce yourself from the idea that you need to be spooning with your enemy before you strike the first blow to win with a stealth class. That's not true here.

What stealth means is that you get to be 90% closer to your target before they even realize you are there. That when your out in the world people need to be 90% closer to you to even know you are there.

I assumed you were trolling because in a game with Open World PvP the value of that is so incredibly obvious I'm in complete disbelief that anyone would stay it sucks.

Also... yeah... I don't think I even need to argue the fact we have more than 7 members. I can prove that wrong by so many metrics it's not even funny but it's not really worth my time until we have a game to play.


Andius wrote:

Sneak attacks with a ranged weapon can be made from 30 feet away. No class except rogues rely on sneak attacks and even rogues don't need to be in stealth to use sneak attack. So divorce yourself from the idea that you need to be spooning with your enemy before you strike the first blow to win with a stealth class. That's not true here.

What stealth means is that you get to be 90% closer to your target before they even realize you are there. That when your out in the world people need to be 90% closer to you to even know you are there.

I assumed you were trolling because in a game with Open World PvP the value of that is so incredibly obvious I'm in complete disbelief that anyone would stay it sucks.

Also... yeah... I don't think I even need to argue the fact we have more than 7 members. I can prove that wrong by so many metrics it's not even funny but it's not really worth my time until we have a game to play.

Wow, you're something special. And 90% is if you have MAXED out stealth at level 20 and your opponent hasn't put 1 point into Perception, so in reality, it's very rare that it'll be 90%.

Also, Rogues typically melee. Why should stealth only cater to ranged attackers? Please explain this to me. In just about every game I've played, rogues have some type of backstab move which they use from stealth (similar to a sneak attack). So, stealth is only effective if you're using a bow? Give me a break Andius. Give me break. Break me off a piece of that Kit Kat bar.

Goblin Squad Member

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Even if done in an indirect way, it is probably not a good idea to suggest that someone is trolling. I know, from personal experience, that it is not favored by the Moderators.

They do seem to let a lot of things float by though, so ... <shrug>

Goblin Squad Member

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Qallz, maybe as people have said it isn't intended to be used in the way you think it is. I pointed out that stealth allows you to potentially pick whether or not the enemy gets to engage you, and this can easily be extrapolated to forward scouts for bandits or armies and many other interesting systems; do you think that this advantage is completely useless?

In the tabletop game, most characters can easily move about 10 feet a second. Most characters can also sprint to get up to 20 feet per second, and I'm going to assume a rogue can sprint about the same speed for the sake of argument. If you exit stealth and sprint at your enemy from 100 feet away, that's 5 seconds to reach them, which is about one round's worth of attacking before you get to them. Granted, that's assuming you have a decent amount of stealth trained and they only have a little perception, but you're basically negating any sort of ranged build here without having the usual "totally invisible until 5' away" mechanics of MMO stealth.

By the way, in the TT game you generally have to have some kind of cover or concealment from your target to stealth at all, while I'm quite sure here we'll be able to stealth without such things.

I know the currently proposed mechanics don't allow a rogue to close into melee undetected, which is a big nerf to stealth as it appears in many other games, but there's large advantages for taking the stealth skill in the context of a sandbox MMO that I feel you're overlooking.

It's better to try and understand the other side of an argument then to assume it's just bunk, and insulting other people because their opinion differs is just plain wrong (this last part not just directed at Qallz).

Goblin Squad Member

So what type of stealth system would you rather see, Qallz?


Shane Gifford wrote:


In the tabletop game, most characters can easily move about 10 feet a second. Most characters can also sprint to get up to 20 feet per second, and I'm going to assume a rogue can sprint about the same speed for the sake of argument. If you exit stealth and sprint at your enemy from 100 feet away, that's 5 seconds to reach them, which is about one round's worth of attacking before you get to them.

A full round of attacking? 6 seconds is A LOT more in an MMO than it is in Pathfinder TT, I hate to inform you. And again, if you read the post, you'll see that if someone drops a few points in Perception, you won't be able to do $hit against them, even with a bow, and even if you max out stealth. Even if you're scouting or trying to avoid a fight, they'll bring the fight to you, and you're a rogue and they're a figher, that's Game Over.

Also, we're forgetting large groups of people. If you have an 8-man rolling around, one of them is bound to have maxed out Perception... they inform their friends on TS, take the lead, and destroy you.

And let's not forget Assassinations. It'll be fun to see would-be Assassins walking into a Settlement with 100's of people walking around, all who can see them walking around in stealth mode from between 30-300 feet away. That should be interesting.


Jiminy wrote:
So what type of stealth system would you rather see, Qallz?

DAoC nailed it imo. For anyone who's played that, you know what I'm saying.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Qallz wrote:


Also, Rogues typically melee. Why should stealth only cater to ranged attackers? Please explain this to me. In just about every game I've played, rogues have some type of backstab move which they use from stealth (similar to a sneak attack). So, stealth is only effective if you're using a bow? Give me a break Andius. Give me break. Break me off a piece of that Kit Kat bar.

Stealth is not a combat stance. You CANNOT ATTACK from stealth, ever. Stealth is used to get closer to your opponent without being attacked- and the glass cannon rogues know that every step closer where they aren't taking ranged attacks is more time in their lifespan.

Your backstab isn't something that you do by yourself- it's something that you do while your target is attacking someone else.

Again, stealth isn't a skill to be used in combat, it's a skill that might allow you to determine if combat is going to happen or not, either by getting closer to someone who wants to avoid it, or by remaining unnoticed by someone who wants to engage you.

Goblin Squad Member

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Qallz wrote:
A full round of attacking? 6 seconds is A LOT more in an MMO than it is in Pathfinder TT, I hate to inform you.

They're basing the combat on TT's 6-second rounds with the stamina system; I was merely pointing out that a ranged-combat specialist gets almost no time to attack you before you're in melee. EDIT: BTW, they say fighters can close the gap; it might be possible for you to take those skills while keeping your rogue Role Feature. If that's the case then we're looking at less than 5 seconds from totally invisible and likely off to the side to melee range combat. Even if they have a program or tool to auto target you when your stealth breaks, you can probably get the first hit while they take a second or two to realize your presence. Also, you don't have to talk to me like I've never played an MMO, because I've played plenty; I just leave any assumptions from those games at the door when talking about what we might find in PFO.

Quote:
And again, if you read the post, you'll see that if someone drops a few points in Perception, you won't be able to do $hit against them, even with a bow, and even if you max out stealth. Even if you're scouting or trying to avoid a fight, they'll bring the fight to you, and you're a rogue and they're a figher, that's Game Over.

If they put a few points into Perception and you put more into stealth, you can easily stay outside their vision range. Even if both are equal, you can see him from up to twice as far away as he can see you, so I really don't see how he can bring the fight to you.

Quote:
Also, we're forgetting large groups of people. If you have an 8-man rolling around, one of them is bound to have maxed out Perception... they inform their friends on TS, take the lead, and destroy you.

If they have 8 guys rolling around, and one of them is spending 15$ a month so he can only max perception and look for rogues, I say go ahead and let the guy see some rogues, he deserves it for sticking so diligently to a concept. :) If you are arguing that at some point years past launch that stealth will be less effective because there will always be maxed Perception characters, well your stealth is also maxed so you can see them from twice as far as they can see you. See above.

Quote:
And let's not forget Assassinations. It'll be fun to see would-be Assassins walking into a Settlement with 100's of people walking around, all who can see them walking around in stealth mode from between 30-300 feet away. That should be interesting.

You think assassinations would be more balanced if you can walk into a settlement of hundreds of people and have literally nobody see you? I assume mechanics such as disguises, which were talked about quite a while back in the blog, should replace stealth in most cases while going for an assassination. If you've played the Assassin's Creed multiplayer games where you're milling about in a crowd disguised as a commoner until you strike from nowhere with your blade, that's basically how I picture most assassinations going.

I think the biggest disconnect is that, if I understand correctly, you think stealth should be used actively in combat. I don't think stealth has to have direct combat applications for it to be a very strong and versatile skill. They say in the blog that stealth can help with setting up Sneak Attacks. I think special attention should be given to their particular wording used in that sentence; they don't say that stealth into sneak attack will be a rogue's bread and butter, but instead that stealth can often set up a sneak attack by keeping targets unaware of you. I assume the rogue will have other methods of deception to set up sneak attacks as well, and stealth will just be one option for that. Just because you can't close to melee while maintaining stealth does not mean a melee rogue cannot use it, it's just used in a less direct way.

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