stealth mechanics clarification please?


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Mbando wrote:
Jiminy wrote:
The thing is, if you're throwing points (xp) into perception and maxing it out, you're not putting it into HPs or combat related skills or whatever. This is the beauty of a classless system. You get to do what you want, but if you try to do too much, you become the jack-of-all trades and master of none.

Bingo. If they make it so that you can max out perception, and never be surprised...but you're so under-developed you can't do anything about it: design win. Meaningful choice.

Qallz, that's what you're not thinking through. Whether or not you can max stealth or perception is a completely meaningless concern--it's the trade-offs that we should be asking about.

2 points -

1) There's no indication that someone will have to dump XP into skill points... all classes get skill points to spend, so the idea that you'd have to "dedicate yourself" to Perception seems a bit off for me.

2) Even if this was the case, based on the description they've given us of stealth, someone with MAXED out stealth vs. someone with 0 perception is still pretty weak, making the whole stealth vs. perception argument kind of mute. If a level 2 fighter with 0 perception can see my level 20 rogue with maxed out stealth from 30-60 ft, why did I just spend all those points in stealth exactly?

So I can "see him first and hit him with a bow"? ... Really?

Goblin Squad Member

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Stephen Cheney wrote:

We could probably be better about consistency in how we refer to them, but there are three major types of trait:

•Ability Scores are numbers that start at 10 (unless modified by race choice) and increase gradually as you purchase Feats. Many Feats include a prereq of a minimum Ability Score of a certain type to purchase them.

•Badges are pretty much standard game achievements: you do a certain thing (either an unusual thing once or a more common thing a fixed number of times) and get the Badge added to your character. In addition to an Ability Score, you may need prereq Badges to purchase a particular Feat. Role levels are a particular kind of Badge; you unlock Fighter 3 once you have Fighter 2 and a few other requirements, and it's a prereq for Fighter-specific Feats.

•Feats is a catchall term for everything you might buy that directly improves your character. It includes things you slot (attacks, refresh feats, passives, etc.), skills (they're functionally always active, but only get used in specific circumstances, such as stealth or crafting), and permanent upgrades to combat stats (like base attack bonus or Reflex saves). We sometimes refer to these as "abilities" (short for "special abilities") which is probably confusing :) .

You will gain XP over time whenever you're subscribed (or, later, are purchasing XP-earning time in a more modular fashion).

When you go to a trainer you will see all the available training (not all trainers will have advanced training, and trainers can run out of stock in the short term). Individual items will be unavailable to you if you do not meet their prereqs for Ability Score minimum and Badges. Of the training available to you, there will be an XP cost (which is deducted from your available XP) and a coin cost (largely set by the settlement that owns the trainer).

If you have the available XP and coin, you click to train the Feat and it is immediately added to your character.

See the blog for more information.

This is kinda what we know about "skills" from this How Skills Are Gained

Goblin Squad Member

@Nihimon

Thank you about the avatar. I'm not trying to scare people with my looks. Its when they glance next to them and notice me standing next to them. They can then crap their pants as I pull my dagger out of their heart. It's all in the name. BTW, this won't be my mains name.


Scarlette wrote:

@Nihimon

Thank you about the avatar. I'm not trying to scare people with my looks. Its when they glance next to them and notice me standing next to them. They can then crap their pants as I pull my dagger out of their heart. It's all in the name. BTW, this won't be my mains name.

Hope you're not planning on using stealth to accomplish that.


Bringslite wrote:
Stephen Cheney wrote:

We could probably be better about consistency in how we refer to them, but there are three major types of trait:

•Ability Scores are numbers that start at 10 (unless modified by race choice) and increase gradually as you purchase Feats. Many Feats include a prereq of a minimum Ability Score of a certain type to purchase them.

•Badges are pretty much standard game achievements: you do a certain thing (either an unusual thing once or a more common thing a fixed number of times) and get the Badge added to your character. In addition to an Ability Score, you may need prereq Badges to purchase a particular Feat. Role levels are a particular kind of Badge; you unlock Fighter 3 once you have Fighter 2 and a few other requirements, and it's a prereq for Fighter-specific Feats.

•Feats is a catchall term for everything you might buy that directly improves your character. It includes things you slot (attacks, refresh feats, passives, etc.), skills (they're functionally always active, but only get used in specific circumstances, such as stealth or crafting), and permanent upgrades to combat stats (like base attack bonus or Reflex saves). We sometimes refer to these as "abilities" (short for "special abilities") which is probably confusing :) .

You will gain XP over time whenever you're subscribed (or, later, are purchasing XP-earning time in a more modular fashion).

When you go to a trainer you will see all the available training (not all trainers will have advanced training, and trainers can run out of stock in the short term). Individual items will be unavailable to you if you do not meet their prereqs for Ability Score minimum and Badges. Of the training available to you, there will be an XP cost (which is deducted from your available XP) and a coin cost (largely set by the settlement that owns the trainer).

If you have the available XP and coin, you click to train the Feat and it is immediately added to your character.

See the blog for more information.

...

This description's a little confusing on how to specifically gain something like Perception and Stealth, and how that would affect you, but I assume you can get Perception pretty high still without completely dedicating your character to it to the point where it isn't really viable at anything else. I'm sure you can be a very good Fighter, or Wizard, and max your Perception out easily enough.

Goblin Squad Member

*Removed as it could have been assumed as snarkey and was not meant that way.

Goblin Squad Member

Qallz, do you play PnP Pathfinder at all?

The reason I ask, is because there are a bunch of feats, spells and items that can be used to buff stealth beyond the base version (stealth v perception). I suspect GW will be adding these into the game to enhance the rogue who wants to get 1' away from their foe.

Stealth in Pathfinder is not invisibility - it is not magical or supernatural in nature. You need cover, camouflage, distraction, shadows or some other aid to achieve it. In other words, a rogue cannot just max out stealth and expect to waltz up to a foe unseen and kill them (like MMOs have conditions us to think).

Goblin Squad Member

As for training, it is suspected it will be an extrapolation of that in EVE - though rather than time based, it is xp based.

If you put ANY xp into perception, it will take some away from other abilities. That is, I can pump all 1000xp I get that month into the skill chopchop, and be totally awesome at using my axe to cleave heads in, or I can put 500 into perception and 500 into chopchop, and be reasonably good at both, or I could put 1000 into perception and be completely useless with my axe.

How high we can train things and how much xp needs to be sunk into an ability hasn't really been discussed. But given the huge number of feats and skills in PnP Pathfinder, and given the devs have said it will take 2.5 years to max out the abilities for a single archetype, I don't think we should be getting too worried yet.


Yea, I've played TT D&D & Pathfinder. I know it's not perfect invisibility, but not being able to see someone is pretty much the same thing as that person being invisible to you... either way, you can't see them, so what's the difference? Yes, you need some cover, etc, but that's difficult to implement in an MMO, so I assumed they'd just use the bread and butter invis stealth.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Qallz wrote:
Yea, I've played TT D&D & Pathfinder. I know it's not perfect invisibility, but not being able to see someone is pretty much the same thing as that person being invisible to you... either way, you can't see them, so what's the difference? Yes, you need some cover, etc, but that's difficult to implement in an MMO, so I assumed they'd just use the bread and butter invis stealth.
So, when they specifically said what stealth was going to be, you objected because you assumed it would be something different (and possibly better)? Your position has been consistent that anything less than 'completely invisible until I attack' is useless, despite the fact that it isn't even the industry standard.
WoWwiki wrote:

Stealth is not invisibility. You can be detected by others. Monsters that detect you may stop in their tracks and turn to face you, or attack you directly. Players that detect you will hear a sound, and will be able to target you. The chance of detection increases as you get closer, but also depends on the viewing angle (stand right in front of an enemy and you can guarantee they'll see you), the relative levels, and any perception or subtlety modifiers.

The only difference I see between WoW stealth and PFO stealth is the facing modifier. Is the lack of mention of facing influencing perception your objection?

Goblin Squad Member

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Qallz wrote:
Which is why I'm wondering why we haven't heard a thing from GW in regards to this thread.

My guess is they are reading what we say closely and talking among themselves.

as an aside: I do like your new avatar, Qallz.

Goblin Squad Member

The thing is, 10% is a pretty short distance. In the TT, sight is generally considered to go on as far as the GM says, but most Vision enhancements go up to 120 ft, max. (Say, Darkvision 120')Though honestly 60' is more common.

So if we called that the rendering distance - 120 ft -, that means that the majority of the time, people will show up while that far away from you. You are looking out at the edge of your vision for things, so if someone is as stealthy as you are perceptive, they are twice as close as you would expect them to be - assuming they're not cunning enough to stay behind trees and such within that 60 ft, or simply staying behind you, where you cannot see them, and close a further distance that way. This will mess with your ability to react properly - surprise doesn't get rounds in an MMO, it's a genuine lack of ability to react on the part of the player.

10%? Well, that's really good. I expect to hear anyone walking into my house - if someone is suddenly in the same room with me, having not made a sound entering the front door or coming down the stairs, that is surprising - and if they'd done anything else in the house, I wouldn't know anything about it. Bye bye, entertainment center.


Being wrote:
Qallz wrote:
Which is why I'm wondering why we haven't heard a thing from GW in regards to this thread.

My guess is they are reading what we say closely and talking among themselves.

as an aside: I do like your new avatar, Qallz.

Thanks pal. I like your new Avatar too.

Goblin Squad Member

D&D 3.0 did away with infravision. It's been Darkvision and Low-Light Vision since then.

Goblin Squad Member

Keign wrote:
D&D 3.0 did away with infravision. It's been Darkvision and Low-Light Vision since then.

Yeah my bad. I deleted my post you're referring to. I don't know why I thought I read infravision

Goblin Squad Member

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This game will be very silly if the maximum rendering distance is 120ft, or even 100 yards.

"Stealth" (aka what any rational person would call invisibility) is extremely powerful in sandbox PvP games.

It's an offensive and a defensive ability. It allows you to pick your fights, to scout, to position yourself, to time your attack, to lure people away from safety, to ambush, to steal, etc, etc.

In DotA and HoN you spend gold that could be used to deal more damage, take less damage, control the enemy heroes, get more mana, etc, only to detect invisible enemy heroes.

Invisibility is literally so powerful that Tolkien wrote a trilogy about a ring that granted it.

In games with invisibility and PvP, people always max out the counter-stealth ability, if there is one. They grab talents, feats or put skill points into detecting invisible players because it's so extremely powerful to become invisible.

Invisibility is the kind of ability that needs severe limitations and a plethora of counters to remain optional rather than mandatory.

Goblin Squad Member

Like Insaid in other topic: Change context to change how potent stealth can be used. Ie not all the time is the key but some of the time. Natural variation is key to fair usage.

Goblin Squad Member

Trikk wrote:

This game will be very silly if the maximum rendering distance is 120ft, or even 100 yards.

I agree, but my point was more about the difference between what you expect to perceive and what you actually end up seeing. The gap creates surprise, not as a game mechanic, but as a something players will need to learn to cope with on their own.

Goblin Squad Member

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Definitely don't want the 'invisibility' stealth found in some other games. I would like to see stealth to be more involved. A person good at stealth will look on where to move next, to avoid terrain that might reveal your presence. Such as leaves and branches.

Would also like to see camouflage to help boost your stealth. Either mundane equipment or a spell.

Goblin Squad Member

Indeed. There is something about sentry duty that becomes more meaningful when the shrubberies begin moving up on you.

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