The Seven Deadly Liches (BBEG's)


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I've been putting together a plain text version for a custom campaign setting, the Google Document will eventually be uploaded after a little while. If you are here to participate in this thread their are a few things you need to know. Firstly, my only request to you as the reader is to please comment. If you are here to contribute to the main cause of this thread I would like to say thank you. The main goal is to create Seven Deadly Liches based off of the seven schools of magic. We all know Liches are undead spellcasters of great power, usually wizards, but they can also can be sorcerers or clerics, etc. I need your help creating them, keep in mind each Lich will obviously have its own Phylactery. You also need base each Lich off their corresponding school of magic depending on which sin you choose to create. They are listed below.

The Seven Schools/Sins:
- Envy (Abjuration) (In progress)
- Gluttony (Necromancy)
- Greed (Transmutation)
- Lust (Enchantment)
- Pride (Illusion) (In progress)
- Sloth (Conjuration)
- Wrath (Evocation)

Each Lich needs to be at least level 15 or higher, with a 20 point build. I would also like to point out that all books are aloud and you aren't very limited when it comes to their creation. Just make sure that the content stays within paizo's products. If you have any questions please do not hesitate.


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Okay, question. Do they have to be liches? Because I think you could throw an interesting change-up by having /most/ of them be liches, but one or two of them be something else.

For instance, consider the Worm That Walks template. A Worm is CR+2, the same as a lich, and most Worms are spellcasters just as liches are. But it has dramatically different abilities and weaknesses. If your PCs encounter a couple of the BBEGs and start thinking "okay, liches, everybody optimize for undead" then throwing one of these oozing horrors at them could make for a fun encounter. And thematically, a Worm That Walks would seem a nearly perfect match for Gluttony, and a pretty good one for Greed as well.

Doug M.


Quickly skimming the template section for other CR+2 horrors, I see two that look promising: the graveknight and the vetala vampire.

Graveknights are usually built off fighter types. However, a battle cleric can make a perfectly good graveknight. And the graveknight's mounted combat, massive damage output in melee, and ability to lead a legion of undead warriors could, once again, provide a real surprise to PCs who are expecting yet another lich. Thematically, a graveknight could work very well for Envy: he's a cleric who buffs hell out of himself and his minions with abjuration spells, and then charges the enemy and beats them to a pulp. (And he's jealous of the other liches, of course...)

The vetala vampire is a strange undead that has not gotten a lot of love, which is a pity because it's really interesting. It's a vampire variant that drains memories and personality instead of blood, and that doesn't mind walking around in daylight. The vetala template works great when applied to spellcasters, and a vetala could be a fine fit for Lust.

Doug M.


You have made some very valid points. I'm definitely with you on this, I agree with every thing you've posted so far. If only I could change the title of this thread.. What class would you go with for the worm?


I think pride should be transmutation...


Master of the Dark Triad wrote:
I think pride should be transmutation...

Pride seek to perfect their own appearance and domain through trickery and illusions. Greed delight in transforming things into other things, as well as enhancing themselves.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Graveknights are usually built off fighter types. However, a battle cleric can make a perfectly good graveknight. And the graveknight's mounted combat, massive damage output in melee, and ability to lead a legion of undead warriors could, once again, provide a real surprise to PCs who are expecting yet another lich. Thematically, a graveknight could work very well for Envy: he's a cleric who buffs hell out of himself and his minions with abjuration spells, and then charges the enemy and beats them to a pulp. (And he's jealous of the other liches, of course...)

Could you possibly provide me with an example battle cleric build?


I think I might take a crack at the lust lich. Are we allowed to add Mythic Tiers to this or are we going straight levels? And how do you feel about alternate races because I'm thinking sucubus would be the PERFECT lust lich.


Lerkz wrote:
Master of the Dark Triad wrote:
I think pride should be transmutation...
Pride seek to perfect their own appearance and domain through trickery and illusions. Greed delight in transforming things into other things, as well as enhancing themselves.

What you describe as greed, I'd describe as magical narcissism. As for pride, well, pride isn't a bad thing. Arrogance is. But then, that isn't what we're talking about.

I think pride would have pride about what awesome things they can do through what they can change through transmutation magic.


The schools/sins correlations are a canonical Paizo development dating back to the first stand-alone adventure path, Rise of the Runelords. No spoilers, but the idea of each sin matching each school comes from the ancient Thassalonian Empire. They didn't consider Divination to be a distinct school, which is why you don't see it listed.

Greed is about wanting more, therefore transmuting yourself in order to have it. Pride is about wanting people to believe you are better than them, ergo illusion.

You should consider the liches to be Thassalonian Specialists, if they are wizards. A Thassalonian Specialists gets 2 arcane school slots per level, which must be used on the same spell. As a downside, they cannot ever prepare spells from specific opposition schools. These spells are treated as not even being on their list.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo--- arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/thassilonian-specialist

Sovereign Court

The final BBEG could be a divinner I mean he knows everything amirite? I think a witch-lich would be really interesting.

Liberty's Edge

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Mythic makes a huge difference with a conjuration specialist...


I'm down for mythic, also consider different templates that could best portray that school/sin. They don't all need to be Liches, some of them will be though. For example the graveknight (envy) and worm that walks (gluttony) suggested by doug are really good ideas. Just get creative with it guys. Anyone who helps contribute will be added in the google document when I release it. Also pan I do like your idea about the final bbeg being a diviner.

DM Mathpro wrote:
I think I might take a crack at the lust lich. Are we allowed to add Mythic Tiers to this or are we going straight levels? And how do you feel about alternate races because I'm thinking sucubus would be the PERFECT lust lich.

Go for it man, sounds good. You could make her a sucubus/incubus. Then you could even throw on the vetala vampire template. A vampire sucubus sounds terrifying as all hell.


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H.P. Lovecraft invented the Worm that Walks:

"Cursed the ground where dead thoughts live new and oddly bodied, and evil the mind that is held by no head. Wisely did Ibn Schacabao say, that happy is the tomb where no wizard hath lain, and happy the town at night whose wizards are all ashes. For it is of old rumour that the soul of the devil-bought hastes not from his charnel clay, but fats and instructs the very worm that gnaws; till out of corruption horrid life springs, and the dull scavengers of earth wax crafty to vex it and swell monstrous to plague it. Great holes secretly are digged where earth's pores ought to suffice, and things have learnt to walk that ought to crawl."

Okay, here's a sketch. Start with a daemonspawn tiefling (+2 Int and Dex, -2 Wis, gets Death Knell instead of Darkness as a SLA). Make him a necromancer 11/gravemaster 3. The gravemaster PrC is kinda so-so -- you give up a level of casting, so he'll only have spells like a 13th level necromancer. But it does give him the Undead Manipulator and Negative Energy Conduit powers, both of which are nice if you want him to be standing in the middle of a horde of attacking undead.

In terms of stats, a 20 point build with racial adjustments and level bumps gives Str 9 Con 16 Dex 18 Int 22 Wis 10 Cha 12. (He doesn't dump Cha because he needs it for Command Undead.) 14d8+42 gives 105 hp, which isn't a lot for a CR 15 creature but keep in mind that he has DR 15/- and fast healing 15.

Any encounter should take place in deep darkness -- ideally, with a minor caster somewhere throwing Darkness to attack PC light sources. The worm has both darkvision and blindsight, so he doesn't care. For those PCs with darkvision, you want this guy in heavy, shrouding robes so that the PCs can't see what they're actually facing. His lair should have a lot of little holes in the floor everywhere, leading into a drainage system. (Let the PCs spot this and wonder about it. Clever players may conclude they're up against a vampire or someone with Gaseous Form, which is close.) If the worm is every seriously threatened or badly injured, he discorporates and crawls away under the floor. Remember, his fast healing means that he'll recover any hp damage toute suite. He'll lose any items on him, which is painful. OTOH, if you really want to put in the effort, you could design a lair for him that goes like this:

Bunch of low or medium level undead -> worm is also there, bolstering them with desecrate and buffs. PCs carve their way through, attack worm. Worm collapses at first touch, leaving nothing but a black robe and a nasty smell.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Eventually, the PCs corner the worm... but this time, it's wearing all its gear, and has its most powerful servants at hand. So there's a proper boss fight.

Doug M.


Additional wrinkle on the Worm. Start with a bunch of lower level undead... bleeding skeletons, zombies, ghouls and wights, CRs 1-3 (though, lots of them). The PCs should wade right through these guys without too much trouble, and it should get them thinking "okay undead, that's what this is about".

Then you can bring in the worm's allies. First, he's keeping company with a nabasu demon with 10 growth points. I statted this bad boy out a while ago, and he looks like this:

Nabasu CR 13:

CE Medium outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, native)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +23
DEFENSE

AC 27, touch 14, flat-footed 23 (+3 Dex, +1 dodge, +13 natural)
hp 203 (9d10+54+100 from growth points)
Fort +19, Ref +19, Will +19
DR 10/cold iron or good; Immune death effects, electricity, paralysis, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10; SR 24

OFFENSE

Speed 30 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
Melee 2 claws +25 (1d6+6), bite +25 (1d8+6)
Special Attacks consume life, death-stealing gaze, sneak attack +2d6
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 18th)

At will—deeper darkness, greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), telekinesis (DC 19)
3/day—enervation, silence (DC 16), vampiric touch
1/day—mass hold person (DC 21), regenerate, summon (level 4, 1 nabasu 30% or 1d4 babaus 30%)

STATISTICS

Str 22, Dex 17, Con 22, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 19
Base Atk +9; CMB +25; CMD 29
Feats Cleave, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Power Attack
Skills Acrobatics +25, Fly +25, Knowledge (arcana) +24, Knowledge (planes) +24, Perception +33, Sense Motive +25, Stealth +25 (+33 in shadowy areas), Survival +25; Racial Modifiers +8 Perception, +8 Stealth in shadowy areas; growth point modifier +10 on all skill checks
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Draconic; telepathy 100 ft.

SPECIAL ABILITIES

Consume Life (Su)

When a nabasu creates a ghoul with its gaze attack, it gains a growth point. It gains a bonus equal to its growth point total on attack rolls, CMB rolls, saving throws, caster level checks, and skill checks. Its maximum hit points increase by 10 for each growth point, and its caster level for spell-like abilities increases by 1. For every 2 growth points, its natural armor bonus, SR, and CR increase by 1. Every time it gains a growth point it makes a DC 30 caster level check—success indicates it matures (gaining both the advanced and the giant simple templates) and plane shifts to the Abyss in a burst of smoke. A nabasu can have a maximum of 20 growth points—it automatically matures if it has not done so already when it reaches 20 growth points.
Death-Stealing Gaze (Su)

As a free action once per day per growth point (minimum of 1/day), a nabasu can activate its death-stealing gaze for a full round. All living creatures within 30 feet must succeed on a DC 18 Fortitude save or gain a negative level. A humanoid slain in this manner immediately transforms into a ghoul under the nabasu's control. A nabasu's gaze can only create one ghoul per round—if multiple humans perish from the gaze in a round, the nabasu picks which human becomes a ghoul. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Demons Revisited gives this interesting feat option for nabasus:

Improved Death-Stealing:
Benefit: When you would normally create a ghoul with your death-stealing gaze, you instead create a ghast. As a free action, you may also spend a number of growth points in order to even further augment your new undead minion as it is created. If you spend 1 growth point, you create a wight instead of a ghast. If you spend 3 growth points, you create a wraith instead of a ghast. And if you spend 5 growth points, you transform the target into a juju zombie instead of a ghast. Note that spending growth in this manner reduces your statistics as appropriate.

-- Note that since growth points don't give the demon more feats, you'd have to swap out two of its feats to get this. Personally, I'd consider house-ruling that it gets a feat for every 5 growth points, but if you want to play strictly by the RAW I'd throw out Dodge (AC is not its strength anyway) and Combat Expertise (ibid).

This raises a thought: say you have a nabasu that has a bad case of arrested development. It likes the Prime Material Plane and doesn't really *want* to become a vrolikai. So, it takes the above feat -- and whenever it creates an undead, it burns the growth point to create a wight. That way, it never has to make the level check. (And after a while, there are a LOT of wights around.)

Other demons might view this creature askance -- it's like the kid who never wants to go through puberty, but would rather be an eternal 10 year old, playing with Pokemons and Legos. But what does it care what other demons think? And it has a very cosy relationship with the worm -- they're both gluttons, and they're both all about undead.

Anyway. The worm's other ally should be, of course, a worm. A purple worm, to be precise. Normal purple worms are CR 12; sticking the advanced template on it makes it CR 13. Again, having an enormous eating machine that's threatening the PCs with being swallowed whole seems a nice thematic fit for Gluttony. If you're feeling cruel, you can have it join the Worm That Walks in the final boss fight.

Doug M.


Graveknight: I'd consider Ftr 2/Cleric 13. Slightly suboptimal but it's nice to have heavy armor and a big two-handed sword, and if you're charging into combat feats are good. Cleric domains should be Glory and Destruction, since those are both good for battle clerics and good thematic fits for Envy. He buffs hell out of himself and then challenges the toughest looking enemy to a straight-up combat. (And then if he's losing, he cheats.)

Doug M.


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Okay, further thought. Unless your campaign is unusual, you probably don't want all these guys to be the same power. I mean, the PCs will be leveling up as they go, right? A CR 15 BBEG is utterly terrifying to a bunch of 10th level characters. To a bunch of 16th level characters, he's barely a speed bump.

So you may want to do a campaign outline that takes the PCs from one BBEG to the next over time. Assuming 4 or 5 PCs, it could look something like this:

APL 9-10 -- CR 14 BBEG
APL 11 -- CR 15
APL 12 -- CR 16
APL 13 -- CR 17

To keep things interesting, we can have this go something like lich, Worm That Walks, lich, graveknight.

Now we change things up a bit. The CR 17 bad guy is actually the most powerful of the seven. Once he's gone, the remaining three band together. So, to fight the now 14th level party, three CR 15 liches (or two liches and the vetala vampire) team up to give a memorable CR 18 encounter.

Are we done yet? Heck no. The PCs are now 15th level... so you throw a curve ball at them: a 20th level (CR 19) diviner. Here's the freaky bit: she's not a lich. Possibly she's been drinking Sun Orchid elixir for the last couple of centuries. Or maybe she made some sort of deal for near-endless life. But anyway, she's alive. And she's been the hidden secret overboss all along. And, let me tell you, 20th level diviners are *frickin terrifying*. Their capstone ability means that they ALWAYS go first, even if you get a surprise round on them... meaning that no matter how hard you try, you'll be facing a wizard who's either going to teleport away, or cast Time Stop for 2-5 high level buffs before combat even starts. Throw in the fact that by now she knows everything there is to know about the PCs (because she's been scrying on the other seven, who never even suspected her existence, so she's seen all those final fights), and you have the makings of a truly hair-raising finale to your campaign.

Is this the sort of thing you're looking for?

Doug M.

The Exchange

Wrath..

First time I've actually tried statting out a bad guy though..

Human Sorcerer 16 (Arcane Bloodline)--> Gone Lich
Basic Stats: Str 9 ,Dex 14, Con 7, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 20

On Lichdom:
Basic Stats: Str 9, Dex 14, Con -, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 22

If Stat increases are allowed:

Lv 16 stats on Lichdom: Str 9, Dex 14, Con -, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 25

Hp – 16d8 + 96/112 = 176 (or 192)

Fort +5, Ref +7, Will + 10

AC – 21 (mage armor on 24/7), Touch 12, Flatfooted 19

Defensive Abilities channel resistance +4; DR 15/bludgeoning and magic; Immune cold, electricity, undead traits

Traits: Reactionary, Magical Lineage (Chain Lightning)
Lv 1: Noble Scion (War)
Lv 1 Human Bonus Feat: Persistent Spell
Lv 3: Human Bonus Feat: Craft Wondrous Item (Switch to Elemental Spell Focus Lightning if not required for phylactery)
Lv 5: Empower Spell
Lv 7 Bloodline Feat: Spell Focus (Evocation)
Lv 7 Feat: Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)
Lv 9 Feat: Heighten Spell
Lv 11 Feat : Dazing Spell
Lv 13 Bloodline Feat: Improved Initiative
Lv 13 Feat: Elemental Spell (Acid) / Possible switch for Elemental Spell Focus Lightning
Lv 15 Feat : Spell Perfection (Chain Lightning)

Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you apply a metamagic feat to a spell that increases the slot used by at least one level, increase the spell's DC by +1. This bonus does not stack with itself and does not apply to spells modified by the Heighten Spell feat.
Bloodline Powers: Magic comes naturally to you, but as you gain levels you must take care to prevent the power from overwhelming you.
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard’s bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook). This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.  Bonded item selected (ring)
Metamagic Adept (Ex): At 3rd level, you can apply any one metamagic feat you know to a spell you are about to cast without increasing the casting time. You must still expend a higher-level spell slot to cast this spell. You can use this ability once per day at 3rd level and one additional time per day for every four sorcerer levels you possess beyond 3rd, up to five times per day at 19th level. At 20th level, this ability is replaced by arcane apotheosis.
New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.
School Power (Ex): At 15th level, pick one school of magic. The DC for any spells you cast from that school increases by +2. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Spell Focus. School power selected: Evocation

Spells per day:

8th (3/day)—MindBlank
7th (5/day)—Summon Monster VII, Greater Teleport, Planeshift, Create Demiplane Lesser
6th (7/day)—Chain Lightning (DC 33)*, Planar Binding ,True seeing, Dispel Magic (Greater), Cold Ice Strike (DC 29)
5th (7/day)—Overland Flight, Cloudkill (DC 24), Prying Eyes, Fire Snake(DC 28), Cone of Cold(DC 28), Icy Prison (DC 28)
4th (7/day)—Dragons Breath (DC 27), Dimension Door, Ball Lightning (DC 27) ,Dimensional Anchor, Scrying, Stoneskin, Greater invisiblity
3rd (7/day)—fireball (DC 26), Magic Circle against (Good), Nondetection, Dispel Magic,
Wind wall (DC 26), Displacement, Gaseous Form
2nd (8/day)—gust of wind (DC 25), burning arc (DC 25), invisibility, mirror image, resist energy, see invisibility, Blur, Command undead (DC 21)
1st (8/day)—burning hands (DC 23), mage armor, magic missile, vanish, shield, grease, liberating command, identify
0th (at will)—mending, dancing lights, detect magic, open/close, mage hand, message, read magic, arcane mark, acid splash

* if school powers are doubled by spell perfection, DC is 35 for chain lightning

Stat increases are not calculated into the DCs.

Assuming you're fighting PCs, so didnt bother to put on the whole set of Spell Penetration feats.


I skimmed through really quick. I'm about to head to work so when I get home I will take the time to read through it. Also I'm in love with the idea for the Worms lair.


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Lerkz wrote:
Also I'm in love with the idea for the Worms lair.

Let me expand a bit, then. I'll try to keep this campaign-neutral.

The Worm lives in a city whose culture is big on conspicuous consumption. The wealthy enjoy lives of ostentatious splendor, while the poor groan in misery. And the absolutely best way to show off wealth in this town is a fifteen-course, six hour long, absolute gut buster of a banquet. The Worm loves this, of course, and makes occasional quiet interventions to make sure that public gorging and mass gluttony continue to be central to the local culture.

The Worm's lair is, of course, beneath the great Banquet Hall in the center of town. This is the center of civic life, where the notables gather to eat the finest dishes and decide the town's affairs over replete stomachs and tight waistcoats. The Worm -- which in time will eat all, eat them all -- lurks directly below.

There are some humans in the Worm's lair. Some of these are pathetic helpless slaves, drawn from the poor above. Their lives are horrible and short, and they will end up food for the Worm's undead minions. (The Worm always keeps one close at hand to charge up his Death Knell spell.) Some, OTOH, are nobles or priests from the town above who are in on the secret and working with the Worm. There should be a few low-level priests around, to cast Darkness for the worm if nothing else.

There are also some monks. Monks? Yes -- there's an order of monks in the town that has two branches. One is simple, humble men and women who meditate, pray, and try to help and protect the oppressed poor. The other consists of gluttons. How does a monk become a glutton? By absolute, fanatical focus on eating, of course... not quantity, but quality. "Exactly sixty-two grains of rice, four slices of sweet potato, and half a cup of water. So begins the path to perfection." The humble monks are LG, the diet fanatic monks are LE. Throwing a few monks into the mix is always good for confusing PCs who thought they'd just be wading through endless ghouls. (Though of course there should be ghouls. Lots and lots of ghouls.)

There are bloatmages, of course. Can't have a City of Gluttony without bloatmages.

There's a vampire. A /captive/ vampire, surrounded by holy symbols and a Magic Circle. The creature saw this city full of well-fed people, their blood so thick with rich sauces and high living, and foolishly thought it had found an ideal hunting ground. But the Worm brooks no rivals, and it quickly sniffed out the vampire and captured it. The vampire begs the PCs to free it, offering to tell all it knows and help them against the Worm. (Will it really? You tell me.)

These sorts of things?

Doug M.

Liberty's Edge

Sloth...productive in his younger years, has been lazier and lazier as he got older...he's forced minions to build him a custom golem - something like a sedan chair with legs... physical stats are atrophied... he has just a few mythic tiers... then he got lazy...he was venerable before becoming a lich...it was too much like work. Str and Dex are like 2, now. He summons minions like crazy...has leadership and a swarm of lesser demons that work for him...uses tk to do anything he has to do himself..

I can do the numbers, if you like the concept.


Doug you're the man, man. Like I don't have any other way of putting it, your concepts are so solid and thematically correct. It goes way beyond that though, you literally painted a perfect picture in my head. When I read through your posts it was like I was there. You must be an amazing DM. I'm definitely going to use the material you have provided me, you will be credited.


EldonG wrote:
Sloth...productive in his younger years, has been lazier and lazier as he got older...he's forced minions to build him a custom golem - something like a sedan chair with legs... physical stats are atrophied... he has just a few mythic tiers... then he got lazy...he was venerable before becoming a lich...it was too much like work. Str and Dex are like 2, now. He summons minions like crazy...has leadership and a swarm of lesser demons that work for him...uses tk to do anything he has to do himself..

I think this is cool.

Now, if he's still a lich... how about this. He doesn't even get up out of his tomb. Death is supposed to be a long peaceful sleep, right? If we go with the golem idea... say it's a big stone coffin, a sarcophagus, but with legs. If he has to talk or fight he'll sit up in it, but with much groaning and complaining. The sarcophagus doesn't fight, but it does give him +4 AC and partial cover while he's in it.

Doug M.


Lerkz wrote:
I'm definitely going to use the material you have provided me, you will be credited.

Well, thank you very much. You're kind to say so.

Doug M.


Take a look at the CR question, if you would -- that'll help us do actual builds.

If you want to go with this for the Worm That Walks part of the campaign, I can flesh things out a bit more. Again, it would be helpful to know what APL you expect the PCs to be. The sketch I did assumes a party of four PCs around 11th level, or six PCs around 10th. If the PCs are higher or lower level, there'd be some adjustments. For instance, if the PCs are 13th level or higher, we can just forget about the ghouls. At that level they won't even be able to hit most PCs, and a single channel energy from the cleric will shrivel them all into dust. On the other hand, if the PCs are below 10th level then the Worm needs to be toned down a little.

Are you really planning to run this as a whole campaign?

Doug M.

Liberty's Edge

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
EldonG wrote:
Sloth...productive in his younger years, has been lazier and lazier as he got older...he's forced minions to build him a custom golem - something like a sedan chair with legs... physical stats are atrophied... he has just a few mythic tiers... then he got lazy...he was venerable before becoming a lich...it was too much like work. Str and Dex are like 2, now. He summons minions like crazy...has leadership and a swarm of lesser demons that work for him...uses tk to do anything he has to do himself..

I think this is cool.

Now, if he's still a lich... how about this. He doesn't even get up out of his tomb. Death is supposed to be a long peaceful sleep, right? If we go with the golem idea... say it's a big stone coffin, a sarcophagus, but with legs. If he has to talk or fight he'll sit up in it, but with much groaning and complaining. The sarcophagus doesn't fight, but it does give him +4 AC and partial cover while he's in it.

Doug M.

That's pretty much the idea...I like the coffin...more like a sarcophagus... the chaise lounge version... :p

Liberty's Edge

I'd make greed an Arcane Trickster.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
EldonG wrote:
Sloth...productive in his younger years, has been lazier and lazier as he got older...he's forced minions to build him a custom golem - something like a sedan chair with legs... physical stats are atrophied... he has just a few mythic tiers... then he got lazy...he was venerable before becoming a lich...it was too much like work. Str and Dex are like 2, now. He summons minions like crazy...has leadership and a swarm of lesser demons that work for him...uses tk to do anything he has to do himself..

I think this is cool.

Now, if he's still a lich... how about this. He doesn't even get up out of his tomb. Death is supposed to be a long peaceful sleep, right? If we go with the golem idea... say it's a big stone coffin, a sarcophagus, but with legs. If he has to talk or fight he'll sit up in it, but with much groaning and complaining. The sarcophagus doesn't fight, but it does give him +4 AC and partial cover while he's in it.

Doug M.

Yeah I really like the direction this is going. This has sparked a few ideas, I will post them shortly.


I definitely see him being physically weak because he never uses his body because hes always asleep. So he would need to be like a psychic warrior that operates on the astral plane. Possibly possessing people and what not. That or I think he should take the Darkfire Adept prestige that allows him to summon demons that do what? summons more demons! The sleeping thing fits thematically but so does having everyone else do all your dirty work.


EldonG wrote:

Isn't Darkfire Adept 3.5?

If you want 3.5 open...sooo many possibilities...

Lets not go there, my brain will explode. Here is a link to what I'm talking about. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/blackfire- adept its kind of amazing.


EldonG wrote:
I'd make greed an Arcane Trickster.

I'd make him a dracolich... whoops, I mean a Ravener. (Apparently WoTC owned the name "dracolich", but the concept of an undead dragon was OGL.)

A ravener would fit nicely as the CR 17 boss mentioned above. An old green dragon, or a very old black dragon, gives CR 15; add the +2 CR ravener template and voila, there you are. It's the de facto ruler of a region (possibly ruling through a puppet, or using polymorph spells to mask its true nature), and it has pretty much strip-mined the local economy to build its enormous hoard. PCs expecting another humanoid lich will be in for a hell of a shock.

Additional wrinkles... it always keeps a couple of its living descendants around. So there are some CR 12 or so dragons hanging around the lair, and maybe some half-dragons or dragonblood sorcerors or such. Lots of possibilities here.

Doug M.

Liberty's Edge

Lerkz wrote:
EldonG wrote:

Isn't Darkfire Adept 3.5?

If you want 3.5 open...sooo many possibilities...

Lets not go there, my brain will explode. Here is a link to what I'm talking about. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/blackfire- adept its kind of amazing.

Lol...cool...I'd just looked under c-d...posted... then found it and deleted my post. :p

Liberty's Edge

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
EldonG wrote:
I'd make greed an Arcane Trickster.

I'd make him a dracolich... whoops, I mean a Ravener. (Apparently WoTC owned the name "dracolich", but the concept of an undead dragon was OGL.)

A ravener would fit nicely as the CR 17 boss mentioned above. An old green dragon, or a very old black dragon, gives CR 15; add the +2 CR ravener template and voila, there you are. It's the de facto ruler of a region (possibly ruling through a puppet, or using polymorph spells to mask its true nature), and it has pretty much strip-mined the local economy to build its enormous hoard. PCs expecting another humanoid lich will be in for a hell of a shock.

Additional wrinkles... it always keeps a couple of its living descendants around. So there are some CR 12 or so dragons hanging around the lair, and maybe some half-dragons or dragonblood sorcerors or such. Lots of possibilities here.

Doug M.

Sick. Nice. :)


Also could someone help me build the ultimate Lawyer. Like a Legalistic cursed Lore Oracle. Basically this guy is a smug smart mother fu...

When it comes to the law this guy is almost omnipotent. He will be playing some major parts in the campaign setting.

Liberty's Edge

Lerkz wrote:

Also could someone help me build the ultimate Lawyer. Like a Legalistic cursed Lore Oracle. Basically this guy is a smug smart mother fu...

When it comes to the law this guy is almost omnipotent. He will be playing some major parts in the campaign setting.

A devil would be the way to go...phistophilus, I would think.


EldonG wrote:
Lerkz wrote:

Also could someone help me build the ultimate Lawyer. Like a Legalistic cursed Lore Oracle. Basically this guy is a smug smart mother fu...

When it comes to the law this guy is almost omnipotent. He will be playing some major parts in the campaign setting.

A devil would be the way to go...phistophilus, I would think.

Thanks for telling me about that I had no idea that even existed. I'm going to post some stuff later tonight on the pride/illusionist. Maybe go over a few concepts I have in mind for some of the other evil guys. Also I'm looking into the Ravener for greed. Also I will be reviewing one of the builds that was posted earlier for wrath.


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Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Are we done yet? Heck no. The PCs are now 15th level... so you throw a curve ball at them: a 20th level (CR 19) diviner. Here's the freaky bit: she's not a lich. Possibly she's been drinking Sun Orchid elixir for the last couple of centuries. Or maybe she made some sort of deal for near-endless life. But anyway, she's alive. And she's been the hidden secret overboss all along. And, let me tell you, 20th level diviners are *frickin terrifying*. Their capstone ability means that they ALWAYS go first, even if you get a surprise round on them... meaning that no matter how hard you try, you'll be facing a wizard who's either going to teleport away, or cast Time Stop for 2-5 high level buffs before combat even starts. Throw in the fact that by now she knows everything there is to know about the PCs (because she's been scrying on the other seven, who never even suspected her existence, so she's seen all those final fights), and you have the makings of a truly hair-raising finale to your campaign

Just noticed this and yes this is exactly what I had in mind after Pan suggested it. I'm still wondering which class to choose for this divine caster though, this might possibly be a witch.


Come to think of it, there is a place for an Arcane Trickster. I'd put one in the Worm's lair. It's a ratling witch/rogue with a quasit as its improved familiar. (If you missed it, ratlings are the horrible little ratlike dudes with half-human faces, little handlike paws, and evil intelligence. They're Lovecraftian too, so that fits.)

I'd make the ratling something like a Rog 3/Witch 3/Arcane Trickster 4. That only makes it CR 10 or so... but it runs around under the floor, constantly going invisible, throwing spells and launching sneak attacks and summoning rat swarms and stealing small useful items from the PCs and giggling horribly (witch's cackle). Trust me, it won't take long before the PCs utterly hate this guy.

(He's friends with the Worm. They get along great, actually.)

Doug M.

Liberty's Edge

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Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Come to think of it, there is a place for an Arcane Trickster. I'd put one in the Worm's lair. It's a ratling witch/rogue with a quasit as its improved familiar. (If you missed it, ratlings are the horrible little ratlike dudes with half-human faces, little handlike paws, and evil intelligence. They're Lovecraftian too, so that fits.)

I'd make the ratling something like a Rog 3/Witch 3/Arcane Trickster 4. That only makes it CR 10 or so... but it runs around under the floor, constantly going invisible, throwing spells and launching sneak attacks and summoning rat swarms and stealing small useful items from the PCs and giggling horribly (witch's cackle). Trust me, it won't take long before the PCs utterly hate this guy.

(He's friends with the Worm. They get along great, actually.)

Doug M.

lol...how...'Rats in the Walls'... ;)


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
There are some humans in the Worm's lair. Some of these are pathetic helpless slaves, drawn from the poor above. Their lives are horrible and short, and they will end up food for the Worm's undead minions. (The Worm always keeps one close at hand to charge up his Death Knell spell.) Some, OTOH, are nobles or priests from the town above who are in on the secret and working with the Worm. There should be a few low-level priests around, to cast Darkness for the worm if nothing else.

Loving this idea, but, oh man... there's some real squickiness you can add to this.

The idea of "nobles so powerful and dehumanized others not-them, that they start to gain insane tastes" is a trope that would thrive in this.

Perhaps the Worm doesn't just foster the idea of Gluttony throughout the city, but also "takes it to the final solution" for those Nobles (and others of power) that he lets into his inner circle. Giving closed door parties where they eat exotic things, starting off with maybe a poor person found in the streets, and working their way up to more exotic sentient creatures that had been captured (Hostel-style).

Perhaps they caught one of their own Nobles making a mistake (going against the gluttonous way) and watch as the others see him no longer as a peer, but the main course; that dehumanizing line is so abrubt.

If you really want to make his as horrifying as possible, perhaps they have spells they keep them alive during the meal. Something like this little doozy of a "story".*

Having the PCs stuck watching this from afar, unable to do anything (perhaps cutting off at the point where your game has enough Horror or Gore) can really get that immersion as the players start to emotionally invest in the situation (nothing's better than when the players themselves feel real hate/frustration/disgust towards a BBEG, haha!)

.
*Warning: SFW but this page (and site) isn't for the faint of heart.


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Well, here we get into complex issues of DMing -- tenor, tone, and what works for your party. There's a quote from Steven King that may be apposite:

"The 3 types of terror: The Gross-out: the sight of a severed head tumbling down a flight of stairs, it's when the lights go out and something green and slimy splatters against your arm. The Horror: the unnatural, spiders the size of bears, the dead waking up and walking around, it's when the lights go out and something with claws grabs you by the arm. And the last and worse one: Terror, when you come home and notice everything you own had been taken away and replaced by an exact substitute. It's when the lights go out and you feel something behind you, you hear it, you feel its breath against your ear, but when you turn around, there's nothing there..."

King goes on to say that he thinks terror is the highest form, but also the hardest to do. "So," he adds, "I'll go for the Gross-out if that's what I have to do to get you."

There's definitely a place for this sort of horror in at least some Pathfinder campaigns. But whether it will work for your group... well, that depends. It depends on how well you can carry it off, and it depends on your players.

But if you do want to go this route, okay, here's a tip: have at least one of the victims be someone the PCs know. Not a best friend or dear comrade; that's unnecessary. But some minor NPC who was friendly to them, or who did an act of kindness. I mentioned the lawful good "kind monks"; have one of them help the PCs in some small way when they arrive in Glutton Town. Then let them see him being arrested (maybe for violating the law against, I don't know, giving food to the poor. Giving food to people who can't pay for it is against the law!) And then he turns up down in the Worm's lair, with something awful about to happen to him...

Doug M.


On Sloth, I once made the seven deadly sins and I actually made Sloth as a Psion/Thrallherd. Now, I don't believe you can achieve lichdom this way, but it does give him loads and loads of followers and if he's managed to obtain all his Thrallherd levels he doesn't have just one, but two thralls (essentially cohorts). This does make him a little more akin to an Enchanter, but it makes for one hell of a massive/time intensive encounter.


For an undead practitioner of Wrath, there's nothing better than a ghost. But I'd use it for Pride/Illusion. Why? Best part of a ghost is that they come back like a lich, but they don't have a phylactery, so you can trick them like that. They also keep more of their appearance than a lich would, so they can stay beautiful. A Vampire would work too, but you need a ghost 'cause they are nice and tricksy. Making this one of their first battles, it can actually come back later teamed up with another guy if they don't take care of him properly.

Ghosts work best for story too, and the best ones don't know they are dead. And a pride ghost not knowing they are dead is really awesome. They've fallen prey to their own illusions, they don't know that they just aren't amazing spellcasters with unnaturally long life. The only way to beat them for good is to show them that they are dead. So the party bard or anyone with good talky skills can finish them off. Or, perhaps a mirror, all which have been smashed already in the area, which brings me to my next point, setting.

Have the place the ghost is at be either an abandoned mansion or theater. The point is you need lots of statues about. Now, I don't know about you but in our home group, statues freak the heck out of our parties because of golems and constructs constantly posing as statues, so make all the statues normal, well maybe except one. I like the mansion the most due to the many rooms they can float through, multiple floors as well, just to be irritating to those with short term buffs.

As for minions, shadows and greater shadows are great, air elementals, invisible stalkers and a invisible dirge bard to declare the caster's greatness and his enemies doom. Also, traps. Invisible walls covering pits with gray oozes at the bottom, Invisible boulders crashing down stairs, Invisible walls of force popping up when you trigger a plate. Make your Rogue work.

Load up on the shadow spells. I mean seriously. Shadow evocation, shadow conjuration. Keep them chasing shadows and maybe have a few shadows summoned as well to keep them on their toes. Nothing bothers people than hordes of shadows. Especially your melee practitioners.


Lerkz wrote:
Doug you're the man, man. Like I don't have any other way of putting it, your concepts are so solid and thematically correct. It goes way beyond that though, you literally painted a perfect picture in my head. When I read through your posts it was like I was there. You must be an amazing DM. I'm definitely going to use the material you have provided me, you will be credited.

I do agree lol I enjoyed reading his ideas and makes you feel there


- Pride

Sorcerer Dragon Disicple turned lich. Pride in his strength.


I offer you a sample lich for Lust.

Placer Kalipay:
Placer Kalipay
Female Tiefling Mythic Lich Witch 15
NE Medium undead (outsider, mythic, native)
Init +21; Senses darkvision 60 ft., spell perception; Perception +27
Aura fear aura (DC 31)
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 39, touch 19, flat-footed 34 (+5 armor, +5 Dex, +15 natural, +4 deflection)
hp 215 (15d6+160)
Fort +13, Ref +14, Will +14; +12 bonus vs. channeled energy
Defensive Abilities channel resistance +12, creeping paralysis, formidable animation, hard to kill, rejuvenation, sustained by magic; DR 15/bludgeoning, 15/epic, 15/magic; Immune channeled energy from non-mythic sources, cold, electricity, polymorph, undead traits; Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 30; SR 37
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee shadow's touch +9/+4 (1d4+2/17-20/×2)
Special Attacks hexes (cackle, charm [dc 29], evil eye [dc 29], flight, ice tomb [dc 29], major healing, misfortune [dc 30], retribution [dc 29], slumber [dc 29]), immediate counterspell, mythic power (10/day, surge +1d6), mythic spells, paralyzing touch
Spell-Like Abilities
. . At will—feather fall (self only) (DC 15)
. . 15 minutes/day—fly (self only)
. . 1/day—levitate (self only)
Witch Spells Prepared (CL 15th; concentration +27):
8th (3/day)—mass charm monster (DC 30), symbol of insanity (DC 30), irresistible dance [M] (DC 30)
7th (4/day)—mass hold person (DC 29), chain lightning (DC 29), symbol of stunning (DC 29), harm [M] (DC 29)
6th (5/day)—flesh to stone (x2) [M] (DC 28), cone of cold [M] (DC 28), greater dispel magic, raise dead
5th (6/day)—teleport, hold monster (x2) (DC 27), dominate person (x3) [M] (DC 27)
4th (7/day)—black tentacles [M], dimension door [M], charm monster (x2) (DC 26), confusion (x2) [M] (DC 26), greater false life
3rd (7/day)—lightning bolt [M] (DC 25), blink, dispel magic (x2) [M], suggestion (x2) (DC 25), clairaudience/clairvoyance
2nd (7/day)—false life [M], unnatural lust (DC 24), hold person (x2) (DC 24), invisibility (x2), web [M] (DC 24)
1st (7/day)—sleep (x2) [M] (DC 23), mage armor [M], command [M] (DC 23), charm person (x2) (DC 23), obscuring mist [M]
0 (at will)—detect magic, arcane mark, message, light
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 21, Con —, Int 34, Wis 12, Cha 18
Base Atk +7; CMB +7; CMD 26
Feats Accursed Hex, Accursed Hex [M], Combat Casting, Extra Hex, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Familiar, Improved Initiative, Improved Initiative [M], Maximize Surge [M], Mythic Paragon [M], Mythic Spell Lore [M], Mythic Spell Lore [M], Spell Penetration, Split Hex
Traits charming, reactionary
Skills Bluff +21 (+22 vs. characters who could be attracted to you), Diplomacy +7 (+8 vs. characters who could be attracted to you), Disguise +22, Escape Artist +20, Fly +23, Intimidate +22, Knowledge (arcana) +30, Knowledge (history) +21, Knowledge (planes) +21, Perception +27, Sense Motive +27, Spellcraft +30, Stealth +33, Swim +4, Use Magic Device +22; Racial Modifiers +2 Bluff, +8 Perception, +8 Sense Motive, +10 Stealth
Languages Abyssal, Common, Cyclops, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Infernal, Orc, Tengu, Other Language
SQ augmented spellcasting, mythic phylactery, patron spells (deception)
Combat Gear Hexing runes (Misfortune) (1/day), Ring of spell storing (major); Other Gear Shadow's touch, Bracers of armor +5, Cloak of resistance +3, Getaway boots (1/day), Headband of mental prowess (Int & Cha +6) (Knowled, Ring of fire resistance (greater), Courtier's outfit, 45 PP, 400 GP, 11 SP, 9 CP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Accursed Hex Target a creature with a hex a second time that day if it made its save the first time
Accursed Hex [Mythic] When using Accursed Hex, foe must roll second save twice and take lower result.
Arcane Familiar Nearby You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Artifact Phylactery In order to destroy Placer Kalipay's artifact phylactery, Placer must first be cloned, her clone slain and the phylacery bathed in the blood of the clone for 24 hours, after which it can be destroyed as any normal lich's phylactery.
Augmented Spellcasting (Arcane Surge) (Su) You gain the chosen ability.
Cackle (Su) As a move action, extend the duration of other hexes by 1 rd.
Channel Resistance +12 +12 bonus to save vs. Channel Energy.
Charm +2 (12 round(s)) (DC 29) (Su) Improve attitude of humanoid or animal in 30 ft by 2 step(s).
Charming +1 Bluff/Diplomacy/save DC for a language-dependent spell vs. targets who could be sexually attracted to you.
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Creeping Paralysis (Su) Foes touching or hitting with non-reach weapon are affected by paralyzing touch.
Damage Reduction (15/bludgeoning) You have Damage Reduction against all except Bludgeoning attacks.
Damage Reduction (15/epic) You have Damage Reduction against all except Epic attacks (weapons with a +6 bonus).
Damage Reduction (15/magic) You have Damage Reduction against all except Magic attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (30) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Evil Eye -4 (15 round(s)) (DC 29) (Su) Foe in 30 ft takes penalty to your choice of AC, attacks, saves, ability or skill checks (Will part).
Fear Aura (DC 31) Foes in 60 ft are frightened (below 5 HD) or shaken for 15 rds (Will neg).
Formidable Animation (Su) Roll twice and take higher when dispelling. Foes roll twice and take lower.
Getaway boots (1/day) Attune boots to a location, then teleport self there later in the day.
Hard to Kill (Ex) Automatically stabilize when dying, and only die at neg Con x 2.
Hexing runes (Misfortune) (1/day) Activate to gain the benefits of the ward hex.
Ice Tomb (DC 29) (Su) A storm of ice and freezing wind envelops the target, which takes 3d8 points of cold damage (Fortitude half). If the target fails its save, it is paralyzed and unconscious but does not need to eat or breathe while the ice lasts. The ice has 20 hit po
Immediate Counterspell (Su) As an imm action, use 1 power to counterspell without readied action.
Immune to Non-Mythic Channeled Energy Immune to non-mythic channel energy (except to heal undead.
Immunity to Cold You are immune to cold damage.
Immunity to Electricity You are immune to electricity damage.
Immunity to Mind-Affecting effects You are immune to Mind-Affecting effects.
Immunity to Polymorph You are immune to Polymorph effects.
Improved Initiative [Mythic] When rolling initiative, use 1 power to treat the roll as a natural 20.
Major Healing (4d8+15) (Su) Use cure critical wounds once per day/person.
Maximize Surge [Mythic] (1/day) Use 2 power to treat surge as though rolled max result.
Misfortune (2 rds) (DC 30) (Su) Foe in 30 ft must take the lower of 2d20 for rolls (Will neg).
Mythic Phylactery (Su) Phylactery can't be harmed by non-mythic sources. At Rank 8+ can only be destroyed 1 way.
Mythic Power (10/day, Surge +1d6) Use this power to perform your mythic abilities.
Mythic Spell Lore [Mythic] Gain mythic spells equal to your mythic tier.
Mythic Spell Lore [Mythic] Gain mythic spells equal to your mythic tier.
Mythic Spells (2/day) (Su) Cast a Mythic spell without using any mythic power.
Paralyzing Touch 1d8+7 (DC 31) 1d8+7 damage, plus Fort save or be paralyzed.
Rejuvenation (Su) Liches can return after a few days.
Retribution (12 round(s)) (DC 29) (Su) Foe in 60 ft suffers half the melee damage it deals, ignoring resist, for duration (Will neg).
Ring of spell storing (major) A major ring of spell storing contains up to 10 levels of spells (either divine or arcane, or even a mix of both spell types) that the wearer can cast. Each spell has a caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast that spell. The user need not provide any material components or focus to cast the spell, and there is no arcane spell failure chance for wearing armor (because the ring wearer need not gesture). The activation time for the ring is the same as the casting time for the relevant spell, with a minimum of 1 standard action.

For a randomly generated ring, treat it as a scroll to determine what spells are stored in it. If you roll a spell that would put the ring over the ten-level limit, ignore that roll; the ring has no more spells in it.

A spellcaster can cast any spells into the ring, so long as the total spell levels do not add up to more than 10. Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat. A spellcaster can use a scroll to put a spell into the ring of spell storing.

The ring magically imparts to the wearer the names of all spells currently stored within it.

Construction
Requirements: Forge Ring, imbue with spell ability; Cost 100,000 gp
Scry on Familiar (1/day) (Sp) You can scry on your familiar, as the spell.
Shadow's touch Ignores bonuses to AC from delfection and force effects. Spend 1 power for shadow walk
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.
Slumber (15 rds) (DC 29) (Su) Foe in 30 ft falls asleep for duration, or until damaged or roused by ally (Will neg).
Speak with Animals (Ex) Your familiar can communicate with animals similar to itself.
Speak With Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
Spell Perception (Su) Auto know what spell is cast in 60 ft and can pinpoint the caster.
Spell Resistance (37) You have Spell Resistance.
Split Hex A targeted hex can affect two creatures
Surge (1d12) Spend a use of mythic power to add the roll of a die to a d20 you just rolled
Surge (1d6) (Su) Use 1 power to increase any d20 roll by the listed amount.
Sustained by Magic (Su) When cast a spell, heal spell level x 3 Hp.
Undead Traits Undead have many immunities and use Cha in place of a Con for all effects.


What an awesome idea. I'll have to keep an eye on this thread.


It was a month old but I wanted to see if someone could continue it liked the gluttony idea the best


If time allows, I may stat out the Worm and expand his city and lair a little.

Did the OP ever do anything with this?

Doug M.

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